 Great. Welcome, Marla. Thank you. So, Marla, this is representative Tom Stevens and for everybody. This is the general housing and military affairs committee. We are picking up with a new cat, new conversation. Right now it is mental health advocacy week here in Vermont. And again, if we were back in the building we would be able to visit with many folks, excuse me, who work in this field from around the state they would be in the card room they would be visiting us in our committee rooms. And it would be giving us an update of and advocating for for the continued appropriations for their work this year I think it takes on a slightly different and perhaps more more urgent conversation because of the pandemic and the incredible crisis that some people are experiencing. And if it's not personal to anyone of us here in the room then it's probably invisible across as mental health issues usually are. And so we have with us today Mary Moulton who is the longtime executive director of the Washington County mental health services and she has brought her along Keith Greer with her. And Marla Simpson is here from on the phone from Randolph. And I just am grateful for for everyone coming forward this is the this is what we're doing this year we're inviting. People are people are visiting different committees all week long. And that is something that is new to us in a zoom pealier world, but it is something that is necessary for us to continue to hear the stories and the needs that are out in our communities I think Washington County. It's close by it is probably just like every other statistic it probably is one of the more active counties just as you know quite not quite as active as Chittin County, perhaps, or Wyndham County but certainly the numbers on a percentage basis are the same and the needs are the same nothing separates us only by county here. So that I'd like to just turn the microphone over to Mary, and have her introduce herself and let you know Mary welcome again. Thank you representative Stevens for the record Mary Moulton executive director of Washington County mental health and a shout out to my dear friend and colleague Marla Simpson, who I'm looking forward to listening to. Thank you for the entire committee. Thank you for having us and to talk about mental health advocacy and actually going to talk about housing, because in Washington County, we are deeply deeply committed as a mental health center to that so the good news that I bring to the pandemic is that if there's been anything that actually busted down the doors of stigma around mental health, although we've been trying for years from all different angles it was a pandemic and that is because isolation and has affected us all in this way and has raised the specter of the importance of our mental health the bad news is that our entire population is feeling this stress and, and a growing segment of our Washington County pop, which are those folks that are homeless, are experiencing an even greater level of stress, due to housing instability, and in view of that, frankly, we just don't have the capacity to keep up with the need within our mental health centers we are experienced some significant weight less right now and our emergency services division is in an explosive state so but I want to talk about housing and I want to talk about that because as you know and what you're committed to is, is that found housing just the foundation of health. I hope we see Medicaid dollars more Medicaid dollars come into into housing. It is essential for good mental health and if you wonder about that. You need only look at disaster research I've, I've been a disaster responder and homes are where our identities are built and reside and they should be our safe spaces so they're extremely important to us. Transitional and supportive housing as well as homeless shelters can help stabilize people with mental health and substance use issues and in Washington County we had to reduce the number of beds available within our good Samaritan shelter severely during the pandemic. We had, we are fully in support as a as a group of community providers in our area of re establishing a robust shelter we're down to only 15 beds at the shelter. And we'd like to create a centralized hub for people to get information and connection on resources that might be a virtual hub actually to start with where you could come in any door. And we, we have talked about this as a homelessness task force group of providers that meet every Monday morning. They're committed to expanding on the concept so that people who are having difficult times with homelessness don't have to jump through six different doors on their way to getting back to on their feet. Mental health supports are part of that for those who are experiencing high levels of stress and symptoms of mental health illness and and we intend to, to provide both clinical and peer supports for people seeking assistance and developing that hub model so that our vision is and you'll hear more I think if you haven't from Rick de Angelis did you hear from the good Sam yet today. Chair, so no we're going to hear from him tomorrow. Okay, he's tomorrow so you'll hear more from Rick on this and we do have a vision on this and as I say a task force we are fully behind it in our region and we need the dollars for it obviously as a physical location, not just a virtual location. In May, when I came to the committee, and I testified on short term moderate term and long term solutions for homelessness and last week I know you heard from a lot of people on the pressures that are happening in our communities with homelessness and we had some mentor from capstone and Eileen Peltier from down street who presented you with those numbers. Some amazing statistics I'm, I am shocked to know that we have, you know, nearly 400 people within our hotels. I think we had is it 350 were up there significant numbers of children in comparison to last year. And so, it made me go back to my May 1 testimony I just wanted to share the reflection and just present to you. Some of the, the very good things about hotels and providing that foundational place to live but we have, you know, we have been working on systems response there because it, it also is a difficult environment so I presented and said, one very important thing for us to remember about reducing stress and creating healthy living environments is that we do better if we can control some aspect of our day. And now in the hotels there are people who are various do at controlling others and behave in such a way as to greatly affect more rule abiding guests. There are episodes of crime and victimization. So while housing folks in hotels is continuing to help people with their basic needs, making sure there's a roof over their head and there's food. There are also people coming forward saying they feel unsafe. They are afraid. They can't stay there anymore. There's too much noise. There is disruption. So, safety and planning for future can't come soon enough. And that was back in May. So we've had nearly a year of this experience and when I say we I mean our collective community providers under our belts to continue to provide opportunities within the hotels for support for mental, for mental health treatment, medical treatment, central Vermont home health and hospice is assisting with medical treatment because we have a number of people who need considerable care. And we're networking with security and law enforcement and I believe you're going to hear more from them this week as well. But living in an environment that does not have these built in intensive supports for very vulnerable people can cause levels of depression, anxiety and trauma as well as substance use just based on the scenario I just presented. Finding housing and providing people that opportunity to develop their home and identity is the solution. In the past six months, Washington County mental health and I apologize. My good colleague Keith Greer was not able to join me because he is bursting at the scenes with currencies this morning. So we sense his apologies. But he worked very successfully on developing master leases with landlords through our through our community services program division. And we have four of these settings now. Last year when I testified we had 13 people within this real wraparound intensive program that we have that were homeless and this year we have six. Because we we were able to place them within these particular residences single room occupancy units where we where we also provide housing to appear. Peer services and I am sure my good friend Marla is going to speak to these but they are invaluable to us. And so in placing a peer within these residences we have managed to have landlords agree to open their closed housing units to us because we sign the lease. That is an effective that is an effective model and we hope in our region to grow it beyond the mental health model. So, right now, we can and should as I believe continue the hotel voucher program and you heard that from Sue and I lean last week because it is providing that basic need. But we also need to provide safety at Washington County mental health. We continue to stretch our current staff to these homeless clients should they want or need our services. They only add on the only add on we've had for this effort is a hop grant for us it lasted through December and it ended. I knew it. Our sorry, our hop grants, hop grant opportunities did continue beyond December. We kind of had a perfect storm where we were, we had another grant through one care and we were seeing some overlap. We, we between responding to an emergency room through that grant with people who were homeless so we let go of the hop grant and we counted on the one care grant being sustained and guess what it wasn't sustained so darn it. You know, perhaps a bit of strategic hindsight that we missed an opportunity, but our, we did see case managers through hop grants, I believe, granted to the goods maritime in our region and capstone and those are our partners and will continue to need services within mental health, for sure, because of the numbers of long term needs that people have. But we probably will be seeking those through the Department of Mental Health. So, we with our hop grant though we did transfer 12 individuals into long term case management, and those are folks who received a great deal of support and managing symptoms, and they are now functioning better and we have located housing for the majority of them. We have not had any increases in rates within our, we have a payment reform bundle. And so that's why we haven't been able to increase our capacity that much and for those of you who are on the committee last year you might recall that I cautioned that once we've had three years of this bundle with no rate increases. I cautioned that that same phenomenon might happen if the current state system responsibilities for hotel vouchers shifts to the community. And if the need grew I questioned with the money pot. Right. And my grave concern is that it will not. And that the community will be left without the powers to solve our dilemma of this growing number of people who are homeless and I believe you heard from Sue and I lean last week expressing that same sentiment. I'm concerned, and this RFP is coming out. We all share this concern, not just on management, but on meeting the needs. So we need dollars for capital investments and service dollars to create health through housing. And when I say health through housing I mean structure flexibility and services support and vouchers and if we have that we enhance the potential to help people succeed in safe living situations and reduce the possibility of them experiencing the long term effects of substance use trauma, anxiety and depression. So I thank you for this opportunity to speak to you and appreciate any support that you can provide in helping our marginally housed or homeless. To represent a trial and collect you have questions represent a trial. Yeah. So, good to see you again. And I guess my first question is, we're looking at $200 million and rental arrears funds coming in from the latest COVID relief bill. And we have marginally interpreted that we would be able to pay rent forward as part of those funds, spending as part of those funds. How would that play into your situation at this point. We also know that we can't build our way out of the housing problem and we've heard a lot about the blighted property success and bringing, you know, 250 units online and and some more money because they had received more interest in the in the grant program to bring blighted properties back on and that seems to be a real in road. But those are two questions but just comment as you can. On the arrears, you know, the expert on this is Eileen Peltier. And so I would, I would redirect to Eileen to have her come back in that will help a segment of our population. I do think that we do have a avenue in with if we can sign master leases and have perhaps there's a way for some dollars to go towards something like that we've, we have, you know, taken it's a shared risk model. And we have accepted that shared risk model at Washington County we don't have extra housing dollars so we're, we're granted we're getting rents from our tenants, and we pay forward to our landlord and there are months. If we lose a tenant that we lose dollars so we've got a couple. I think we have opportunity to have many more. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of when you mentioned signing lease agreements to get people into sustainable housing that paid rent forward could funds to pay rent forward in a situation like that would be advantageous. It would absolutely. Yes, sir. Thank you. Representative Kalaki. Hello, Mary. Welcome back. Nice to see you and thank you for the extraordinary work you've all done in the last year. A year ago. The, our commissioner, the AHS was saying that they were thinking of the decentralizing a lot of the services and going to this hub model. And I know there was some concern by agencies and I, I'm remembering that you were nervous about this thinking, oh my gosh, is this really going to work. And have we got enough input. So what's amazing is during the pandemic, you've worked in this way. And now the commissioners back and she's saying that in October I think that it is going to be this hub model. And I just want to make sure that you feel that there was enough input and from the field, and there's enough experience in the last nine months that you think this is a good way to go in concert fashion, just do the supportive housing and other things. Thank you and for asking for that clarification representative clacky that is exactly what I'm referencing as, as you say when I say hub we're looking for a virtual space for centralized resources. We need the dollars to be assured to us for that and and for meeting the needs and I do not feel nor do my colleagues that we're quite ready for that yet. And so I know that Eileen Peltier and Sue Minter spoke to this and I don't know if they were as blatant perhaps as I am and what I say but we have talked about it as a homelessness task force and we're very worried about the ability to manage this number of people, the number of people has become so much greater. And so it's the management, and it's do we have enough dollars and will that pot grow as the needs grow. Those are probably the three central are the three key questions we have and we have not. We have not had an RFP yet our data is coming up where we'll be getting answers to some questions. And we will all be on that line to ask those questions I know that we received some assurances last year from Sarah. Phillips is it. And she said that, you know, in presenting some numbers, which would have to be increased considerably from what we saw last year given our need now that they would certainly be doing the best they can and would commit to that but we all know that's sometimes hard to achieve depending on our state financial situation. And the hotel vouchers currently are centralized and they in will now be decentralized so your, your consortium would handle those is that this. We don't know. I mean as we don't have a formal corporate structure, you know, we kind of thought hey that goes through capstone. I think again for clarification you might want to ask that direct question of Sue Minter. Okay, we have shared grave concerns about how capstone capstone would do it or if we come together how we would do it. And each region, I'm sorry each region would be different so what you decide in your region could be different than what is decided in the Northeast Kingdom or in down in Bennington County is that correct. I believe so I believe so. Okay. And when you said the RFP when is that coming out. You know, the dates aren't clear in my mind, but it is within the next few months where we will be having perhaps March I think there's some kind of informational session. We'll be seeing an informational session I think it's fair to say in the next three, a few months. Okay, thank thanks for that. I appreciate it and really thank you for your work. Thank you. Take a minute here. You brought up a concept that we haven't really talked about yet here in the housing committee, which is the signing of master leases, and in your case having a peer support along with with a client. Could you just tell us a difference between that and what happens with you also employ a housing first model. That separate from pathways which is our which is our housing, a housing first organization that operates in six or seven counties right now but not completely statewide. Can you just talk about the notion of developing this master lease program because you taught you mentioned it that this is a, this is a program that allows landlords to feel secure in leasing their properties. Can you just talk about this in terms of developing it with your clients. Absolutely, it is working well we have a, we had a couple landlords actually approach us. And we, for the first one actually did some renovations, fronted them some money for renovations on their home and they were able to give Brent rates at the at an affordable rate for someone with SSI. That was key for us. And so, with a partnership, we signed the master lease. We then have the tenants sign a lease with us around the agreement of their staying there. And the peer is a person who has therefore then gets a space within the house at a much reduced rent and they work during the day but they're there for support. And this, it made a difference and we also, we also, if there's damage, we will take care of any damages so we do receive a whopping $147,000 a year for housing contingency funds that is eaten up usually for us by March or April. Parts of the state that don't use DA's don't use all their housing contingency funds we're very active in housing we have proposed before that those that don't use it should perhaps have that money moved to those who could use it. And I don't know that that's ever been followed through on but a suggestion I would also put on the table. We have over well over 100 apartment units that came offline from us and from our use. I think it was 128 we met with landlords and they were very clear that there were some bridges burned and they were not going to open our their units to us we're trying to rebuild those houses away, we're just in the very beginning we're succeeding and speaking to down street and capstone we'd like to do this, not just for Washington County clients, but for certainly for others, and see if we could get something valuable rolling and we also have a tiny house project where we have a peer on site is working very well and people are sustaining their housing and it's early on we're like, you know in the first six months of this but so far so good. Great, thank you. Mary, please hang out and as we shift over to Marla. I don't think this will be the only time we see you this year, but I'm glad I'm glad you could make it in. And I think what I appreciate about Mary is, I would say your frankness. More than anything else Mary never minces words. I'm getting old. You know, there's a different phrase for that that I can't use here in public but the, the, no, I think what we are so well served in Washington County by Washington County mental health services, and it is. It is always so hard every year to or every other year to come and visit with the group. And hear the concerns and have to say kind of the same things on our end. We're with you, but we can't print money. And this is something that that I said at the beginning I hope that this opens up, you know, that this, that this helps the, the ice flows keep moving and then we can maybe break them a little bit and really understand and fund the needs in real time, rather than just keep talking about it. Thank you so much. Appreciate the opportunity. Marla, welcome. Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here. First of all, Mary, let me say how amazing it is to have known you for so long. And I'm really humbled. You call me friend and colleague. That's, that's really quite something. Mary does amazing work. I used to be the commissioner of mental health and just her expertise is out of this world. So, really happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me representatives. I do have a personal story of homelessness and about housing activism and advocacy. I would also like to talk with you today about the pathways Vermont housing first model as well. The executive director Mary, sorry, Hillary Melton said that it would take 2.5 more million dollars to make the pathways Vermont housing first model in every county across the state of Vermont. I think one of the representatives just said right now that it's only in six, six counties across the state. So in Rutland County, for example, has terrible homelessness. We get calls about that all the time on the Vermont support line for which I work part time. But let me let me let me be cautious of time and consider it and launch into my own personal story how I became homeless and what happened. So again, sorry, I've got a little pickle in my throat. I apologize. It's really exciting to be here and have this conversation with you. I consider myself a humanitarian and an advocate and like I said, an actionist. I don't, I don't sit back and just wait around for things to happen. I take action at the highest level. So housing is healthcare. Housing is healthcare. I have extensive experience with housing going back to when I was 17 years old emancipated legally from all of my parents. I've always had to find my own housing since that age from age zero to the year 2004. I moved 36 times. It was awful. I really just like that gypsy way of moving all the time by necessity. The worst tragedy was after my divorce at age 28. A year after the divorce, I found myself with about four dollars left total. I had a wonderful female therapy cat and a lovely apartment in Rochester, Vermont, but no money, not a nothing. Let me backtrack. I've been diagnosed with a bipolar one disorder with psychotic features when I was 24 years old. I'd had a traumatic, terrifying and awfully scary break from reality manic psychosis. After that time, I was involuntarily and also voluntarily hospitalized so many times in psych wards. I had no choice. I was totally unable to work and to really function. I'd also developed serious addictions, marijuana and alcohol. So, after I lost all my money, my cat, everything, I immediately moved into safe haven homeless shelter in Randolph, Vermont. I was lucky I didn't actually have to spend any nights on the street. I lived at safe haven for 15 months. During that time, I'd also developed a cocaine habit. I didn't ever buy it. I was in a relationship and around people where it was available. During the safe haven period, I had a major drug overdose, but did not go to the hospital. Luckily, I survived intact. My point in sharing this is that after the shelter, I became an amazing advocate. I received the shelter plus care voucher and was able to finally move into my own apartment. Keep in mind that I was also a very prestigious college graduate after receiving a full total scholarship to Middlebury College, graduating in 1995. In my teen years, I also won scholarship pageants and had been a fashion and print model. I was number six in my high school class, the top ten academically, but I digress. The 15 months of homelessness plus all of the other traumas made me decide that I would dedicate my life to serving people, helping, providing support, advocacy. The Claire Martin Center in Randolph has been amazing to me for nearly two decades now. If it weren't for them, I wouldn't have had any place to live to receive therapy, see a psychiatrist, and get medical insurance, Medicaid and Medicare. CMC is truly outstanding. So ever since approximately 2002-2003, I've been working in the field of health. I was the first guest from Safe Haven, excuse me, ever to be hired to work there. In fact, I worked there three different times over the decades. And to advocate for others, well, I do a lot. I've helped many people obtain the shelter plus care voucher. I've also seen my stepson, excuse me again, throughout his own chronic homelessness. And for about three or four years now, he has had his own apartment. He did live on the streets, camping in the woods as well. Also, at my job at the Pathways Vermont Support Line, I've provided connection, support, warmth to thousands of people all over the country. The first three to three and a half years of the Vermont Support Line, we served people over 18 from all over the United States of America. I was the first operator to ever be hired there before BSL opened in about December 2012. The line opened in March of 2013. I've come close to nervous breakdowns in recent years, even last year. And even after safe haven, there were involuntary psych hospitalizations for manic psychosis. I've also suffered from clinical depression, sleeping issues, and panic attacks. So I am not cured, but I am in remission. I've also been to thousands of support group meetings over the years trying to stay sober one day at a time. The best news is that since 2004, my gypsy moving stopped. It ceased. I've been housed in the same cozy apartment since 04. I love my home. It is my sanctuary. My own safe haven. Also, for the past 7.5 years, I've been in a very loving friendship flash romance with a chef in central Vermont. He is my very, very best friend. We have a three and a half year old therapy cat who is just amazing. Together, we are a tiny but happy little family unit in my cozy apartment, but he has his own house. So my housing keeps me clean, sober, off any street drugs. In March of this year, I'll be clean from marijuana for 8 years. The housing allows me to go to support group 12 step meetings over the phone. My housing allows me to shower, stay clean, sleep, stay warm, work from home. Every single week, I sign about 40 to 50 petitions to save Mother Earth, the animals, social and racial justice issues, equality and gender issues. And yes, I am very political and involved in politics. In fact, when I want to get a message through, I call and write to Bernie Sanders, Peter Welch, Governor Scott, Senator Leahy. And of course, I testify many times at the State House or several times at the State House. Also in 2016, I received the Clara Martin Center Community Service Advocate Award, the first client ever to receive this award in their 51 year history. Also 51, 50 plus year history, I apologize. Also in 2019, I was so humbled and honored to be awarded the Community Advocate Award at the State House in Montpelier, Vermont. I am just so lucky to be alive. I am also a suicide attempt survivor, and at some point down the road very soon would like to testify about suicide prevention. So there were so many times I came close to the grim reaper of my life. Accidents, close calls, just very, very, very blessed and lucky to be healthy and alive. So life is a blessing. Housing is healthcare. God bless, stay strong, stay safe. And once again, I do know a lot about the Pathways Vermont Housing First Program. I do not work for Housing First, but some of my colleagues do. And there are no hoops to jump through with Housing First. People can go directly from chronic homelessness right into an apartment. They do not require that somebody be sober to be housed. Economically, it is much, much, much more cost-effective to house somebody than the trauma, PTSD, substance use, alcoholism, rape, murder, self-harm, cutting, all of those awful things. Stealing, crime, ending up in prison, that can happen to people when they are homeless. So thank you so much. I apologize for my ticklish throat. I did burn some sage before I spoke to this committee, and I think it's tickling my throat. So anyway, I'm open to any questions or comments you may have. And finally, I wanted to say I did lose my shelter plus care voucher over 10 years ago because I worked full-time for one year, quite a long time ago. In recent years, the Claire Martin Center assists some every month with my housing rent for which I am ever grateful. So I pay it forward to society, to the globe, to Vermont, to New England. These blessings and lived experiences every single day of my life. So thanks so much for being here and for listening. My very, very strong hopes and prayers are that all people have safe and clean housing. I'd like to see an end to all homelessness in Vermont for good. On average, every year, there are over 100 homeless veterans. And as Mary referenced, there are homeless families, homeless children, which does just intolerable damage to the human, psyche, body, mind and spirit. So let's really do something about this. The COVID-19 relief bill that's in the trillions. Let's get a lot of this money into the state of Vermont and house people in safe and clean housing. So peace and love. Very respectfully here. Thank you. Now I'm ready to receive any questions or comments. Thank you. Thank you, Marla. Any questions from Marla from the committee? No, I really, this is representative Tom Stevens from Waterbury Marla. I just wanted to thank you for sharing your story and for your journey. It is to have survived and to be here and to be able to testify in front of us. I think you, what, what strength and courage you have to get here. I also appreciate you taking the time to talk to us and share with us. It strikes me that the journey is never finished. And I'm, I'm glad you've made it here with us. I will also say that since 2004, I've been on Social Security Disability Income, SSDI. So other than that one single year years ago when I worked full time, I do only work part-time for my mental health. It is still a journey and I'll never be cured. I have to stay very vigilant. I go to AA meetings as often as I can. You know, sobriety is not the, is not just a given. It's not an easy road. Substance and alcohol abuse affects every strata, economic and racial class all across the world. But I will say though that poverty or living on the brink of poverty or being homelessness definitely escalates all of that. So for example, this year with COVID-19 alcohol sales are up 40%. Yep, they are. Yeah, I'm not sure the exact number, but the numbers are up, even with all the restaurants closed, you know, spirit sales are up for sure. They definitely are and a lot of people are drinking away their isolated COVID misery at home. And my life partner is a chef. He's a really, really great guy. We've, we've, anyway, in June, it'll be our eight-year anniversary, but he's also in recovery from alcoholism. And we, we met in AA in February of 2013, but both, both of us, newly sober, get once again. But I had gone into AA 18 years ago. I had a lot of relapses. I had a lot of sobriety and a lot of relapses. It's really, it's really, really, really not easy living paycheck to paycheck with, you know, since I've been in the same apartment since 04, I've been threatened with eviction twice, both, both of, both of which times I was hospitalized for manic psychosis. So, you know, I've, I've lost jobs because of the bipolar. I lost a job because of my addiction issues. Very, very, very luckily, I went back to work for the Pathways Vermont support line when it went 24-7 in April of last year. So, but I was, I was, yeah, I've, I've, I've watched the whole progression for all of this time. Like I said, since about December 2012 of the Vermont support line, when it, when it was in its very, very early creative inception stages and have just been really instrumental in that. And so I've, I've also called the line myself in the middle of the night when I needed help or in the middle of the day. And it's, it's just a really beautiful service for all of our monitors over 18. Representative Blumlee. Yes, Marla, thank you very, very much for joining us. I have a, I'm new to the committee. And so I haven't been privy to conversations that the committee has had about different models of housing. I was interested in your view of, you know, where you, given the conversations that you have through your work, where you think the biggest gap is in, in housing for the folks with whom you are working, what kind of model is most needed and least available. Say not having housing first all over the state is a really big issue. Some counties are really suffering. I've talked with a lot of people who come out of hospitals and they're discharged and they go into shelters or they go right back on the street. I've talked with a housing first client who after COVID stopped being in touch with the housing first act team and staff. So there's also so many comorbid issues going on for people with mental health conditions and physical issues. I talk with people in chronic physical and emotional pain. The number of people who are suicidal in Vermont has grown exponentially, especially since COVID. The overdoses, the suicide ideation. So what's really missing, I was told by Earhard, Manki, I'm sure you know him, through housing in the state house. I'm on the planning council with Earhard. Last year we had plenty of housing vouchers. We did not have enough staff to support people to help people retain their housing. So people who are most, most vulnerable, who do not do well with traditional mental health systems necessarily. Some do, some really don't. Some are really turned off because they've had so many traumas that they feel isolated and alone and in pain. And you know, often there are abuse histories there, either from childhood or adulthood. So if there are the vouchers, you know, people need the support to maintain the housing once they are housed. My stepson went through years of chronic homelessness before he was housed. And he really, he really doesn't have enough support. I worry about him a lot. His father worries about him. But thank God he finally got an apartment because the chronic homelessness was just going to kill him or make him go to jail or something for a crime or something. So housing people is way less expensive than prison, than hospitalizations for disease and trauma. And as I said earlier, crime and drug and alcohol abuse, or, or, or hurting other people or themselves. Thanks very much. All right, well thank you everybody. Marla, thank you for for testifying today. We are looking forward to hearing more from the pathways organization at some point soon. And we'll catch up with their needs I think that that number that $2.5 million numbers very similar to what it was last year to try to expand. I think it's important for committee to note that organizations like Mary's do have some housing housing first programs in place that it's not solely pathways but that other organizations are engaging in what's been a very successful and keeping people stable. It's not for everybody, but it has been successful for many many of the clients I think the retention rate is incredibly high. And the savings rate when we see what when we see what the savings are for pathways and for programs like pathways and put it into the context of what what Mary's looking for in order to increase capacity. The savings versus, you know, being in an emergency room or being homeless, as opposed to being stably housed with wraparound services is just it's not it's not that it's unbelievable is what it is. And yet we have yet we're moving ever so closely to the point where people are seeing that this kind of expenditure is so much easier and better than the crisis of the moment of having to pay for somebody who's in an emergency room. Which eats up. Absolutely. And you know, my, my housing has kept me out of the psych ward since 2012, by the way. Also, I would not have my housing without the help of the Clara Martin Center rental assistance. I pay the majority of my rent but not all of it. So I would have lost my housing several years ago without the Clara Martin Center. Yes, thank you. Thank you for sharing. All right. Thank you so much. Should I leave the conversation now. We're all about to leave the conversation Marla so yes you can you can go you can hang up if you'd like. All right well Bravo kudos amazing work Mary amazing work representatives and thank you so much. Thank you Marla and Mary thank you for coming in. We will be, as I said I'm sure this is not the last time we will see you this year. And I'm sure we'll need finer detail as we get closer to the dead, not the deadline but I guess I guess there's a sort of a deadline of policy committees weighing in on the on the budget in fact we're on. We need to schedule time for that as well. To discuss the budget and discuss what the impact on on areas in our policy committees but with that everybody enjoy your lunch break, and we will be back after the floor and I misspoke earlier. We are hearing from I misread the I misread the agenda we are hearing from Rick de Angelo's this afternoon as part of the conversation.