 Hi, welcome to town meeting television. I'm here today with dr. Andrea Grayson, and we're gonna talk about the sweet tooth dilemma Andrea Grayson you're part of the create change Collaborative is that right create change lab is a change lab website. Yeah So Andrea tell us who you are and how did you come to write a book called the sweet tooth dilemma? Well, I do a lot of different kinds of things mostly around public health communications in the past decade or so and Back in 2016. I was researching a book about the role of advertising and policy in creating a culture that contributes to Poor heating fast food highly processed foods. It's all all normalized in media and through influencers and you know through After 60 years of advertising people think cereal for breakfast is normal and it's actually the worst Possible thing you could eat for breakfast so I was deep into looking at policy and cultural themes When almost by accident I discovered that I had my own sugar addiction, which I was in complete denial of and it all came to a head one day I was in the health food store and I was done with my shopping and I was looking for something to eat on the car ride home, which was a bad habit and But on this day as I was reaching for the dark chocolate peanut butter cups I had a thought I heard a voice in my head say oh you can have that you worked out today and That's something that I said to myself a hundred or a thousand times before and always took it as truth Well, I worked out so I deserve a treat but on this particular day partly because I was so immersed in in the contributors to the obesity epidemic that I heard it as a voice that was separate from me and It stopped me in my tracks and I thought oh my god That's not my rational brain talking because my rational brain knew about the harms of sugar But it was coming from somewhere else and so that's when I realized oh my gosh that's the sugar talking and how is it possible that sugar is talking to me and so I shifted away from policy and culture and did a deep dive into understanding the biology of how sugar interacts with our physiology and our thoughts and It actually does talk to us Through gut bacteria so in your gut is good bacteria and bad bacteria and the good bacteria feed primarily on fiber and The bad bacteria feed on sugar and flour and so when those when that bad bacteria needs to be fed it will say anything to to be fed and that comes out as denial and rationalization and Deserving a tree and I don't want to deprive myself and all sorts of Irrational things if you thought about it logically, but it comes through as truth And so that started me it took me two years to unravel my sugar dependency But the whole time because I teach in public health the whole time. I was figuring it out I knew I would figure it out and I knew I would Teach people how to do it so that started me on my journey and I created a program called breaking free from sugar Which over 3,500 people have successfully completed with over 96 percent Reporting that they reduced their sugar sugar consumption and plan to continue with a sugar minimal lifestyle Which is probably one of the greatest gifts they could give themselves for their health let's so Addiction and sugar those are two words that we're using and maybe want to define a little bit absolutely when we talk about sugar What does that mean and when we talk about addiction? Really good point. So sugar table sugar as we know it is made up of two molecules pretty much half Sue it table sugar is known as sucrose, which is half glucose and half fructose Other sugars like high fructose corn syrup, which is found in many crackers, breads, sodas is mostly fructose and is not is is Digested differently in the body than sucrose is so Sugar does Interacts with the body does primarily primarily does two bad things two things to the body That does the way it does its harm one is insulin resistance and the other is inflammation Insulin resistance. So when you have a sugar product It's it increases the amount of sugar in your blood called glucose But too much glucose in your bloodstream is really bad for your organs your brain And so we secrete insulin out of the pancreas to absorb that really open up the cells so that the glucose can leave the bloodstream and enter the cells and As many people will have experienced after it does its insulin does its job of pushing the Glucose out of the bloodstream. There's often a lull and so we we get a lull in energy. Sometimes we get hangry or Lethargic and need another boost of sugar or refined carbohydrates to get that blood sugar up So we can function and have energy But after a lifetime of doing this all day long We build up what's called insulin resistance where the cells need more and more Insulin to do the job because it's become resistant to how much it's needed to get the glucose into the blood out of the bloodstream That is dangerous the insulin resistance is dangerous because it leads to pre diabetes and eventually diabetes if untreated and One in three Americans are pre-diabetic and 90% of them don't know it. So Elevated blood sugar is one thing to test for elevated insulin is another thing to test for But so many of us are riding in that pre-diabetic in that pre-diabetic range just waiting just continuing without really realizing it until any number of diseases can can Kick in the other path tied to that's not tied to body physique. It's not tied to being overweight necessarily It's not it really is tied to more of that insulin spike up and down insulin resistance is is Yes is specific to that function that That insulin secretion. Yeah function But all that spiking is largely due to eating refined carbohydrates sugar and refined carbohydrates and Sugar and refined carbohydrates Weight gain Can happen from SSEC excess calories, but it also happens when the system is not Working optimally because there's too much insulin in the system because if your body can get energy It needs from blood glucose. It's not going to go Looking it's not going to go burning fat and insulin Tells the body fat to hold on so it weight loss is a complicated thing That is a sort of a separate conversation to what's happening metabolically from having Insulin spikes up and down. Yeah, I guess I'm saying you you could have any kind of body type and still be oh, yeah Having this up and down insulin spike. That's right. That'd be pre-diabetic. Yeah And so specifically I'm hearing you say like sugar is what is in the bowl on your table, right, but it's also Presenting itself in the form of carbohydrates in other ways so flowers white rice crackers Absolutely, so I guess how does how does somebody identify? Sugar in their daily diet Well, there's a spectrum, you know, there's added sugars and Then there's embedded sort of the sugar that's added to foods so you can You can have a bowl of candy and that's a clear at added sugar But there are over 50 names for sugar maybe even more than 70 names for sugar that are used in the manufacturing process So it's really you to find a bread or tomato sauce or salad dressing without added sugar takes a lot of work even things like Chicken broth bone broth that you buy Has often added sugar not to mention colorings often and other additives so I like to take a Longer-term view sort of a harm reduction view. So the first thing that people should take out is is the liquid sugar the liquid sugar in the form of soda energy drinks because that's just like that just spikes the blood sugar so hard and many people Say they're addicted to soda, but they're also addicted to the caffeine in the sugar in the soda so Soda liquid sugar is really the first thing that needs to go Then minimizing overt treats like cookies candies cakes. You can minimize those the next level might be to Take a closer look at the the ingredients in the food you're buying then maybe minimize Those treats to just a couple times a week or once a week There there definitely can be a gradual process and even once you decide to give up added sugar and do it a detox That that takes Doing a detox is like a sugar detox is like giving up coffee your body just freaks out a little bit and And you might feel lethargic might have headaches might feel Any number of physical ailments associated with the body trying to pass all that out And it does that more efficiently when there's good sleep and good exercise. So really sugar is just one piece of a whole a whole look at lifestyle healthy lifestyle I Focused on it because I had my own issues with sugar, but it's really One piece of a much larger picture of healthy lifestyle I don't want to I want to go back also to the definition of what an addiction is yes And I think there's a question there that has to do with you know What are the signs or symbols that people could look at in themselves and say? Hmm? This is an addiction. Is this a proclivity is this and is there a is there a continuum of that? Yes I'll get to that in a second the other I just wanted to wrap up the other there are two primary pathways that sugar doesn't damage one is through insulin resistance and the other is inflammation and sugar causes inflammation in the gut and we now know that inflammation particularly systemic inflammation is connected to heart disease connected to dysregulation of communication between the gut and the brain may lead to dementia Can lead to joint pain anywhere systemic inflammation shows up in the body And those every chronic disease has as its base chronic inflammation So just to wrap up that area The question of addiction There's a spectrum of addiction Very similar to alcohol there are some people's brains that treat sugar like a potent drug and They find it very difficult to have just have a little So it's very often when someone realizes that they're alcoholic They really have only one choice and that's to go cold turkey and Complete abstinence and there are some people for whom Sugar acts like that on their brain and really the only choice they have is complete abstinence because having just a little Creates a cascade For multiple reasons including They're just their brain response and it involves obsessive thinking it involves Not being able to have a turn-off switch All sorts of behaviors specifically related to sugar addiction or food addiction process food addiction but short of that there's a huge range of behaviors that are That appear as addiction So for example, and I'll use myself as an example. I was a binger binging is Not a normal behavior like I would buy a bag of cookies with the intention to leave eating as much as as much of it as I could on the drive home from the supermarket or Open a bag of chips without with the full intention of eating the bag of chips So that kind of behavior is not Normal in the sense that Biologically the body shouldn't need to do that. It's not a whole food. It's not serving any Chloric need. It's just an obsessive some some trigger went off some biological process was happening that Compelled me to act in a way that was not helpful Other behaviors other than binge so if you eat a bag of cookies at a stop That's a good sign that you might have be on this addiction spectrum another behavior is hiding food. I I kept treats in my car in my bag In my backpack that I would eat I would I would put it in there saying this is for an emergency And then I would eat it and then buy more Other behaviors include eating in private buy things or eat things that I knew nobody else was going to see that I was eating So those are all Behaviors that might make you think you know, maybe my relationship to sugar isn't so healthy Maybe my relationship to processed food is not doing Me any favors even though it feels intuitively. Oh, I want that I'm gonna have that and it and it In a twisted way it feels empowering that you can give yourself something that your body wants but your body has been hijacked by Big food that has engineered that processed food Most everything that comes in a box or a bark have has a barcode except, you know blueberries that come pre-packaged with the barcode Has been engineered. There's a Huge industry of food engineering where they manipulate the amount of salt sugar and fat in Every product to maximize the crunch maximize the flavor sensation maximize the the The I want more factor the I want more factory just bet you can't eat just one Yeah, and they engineer it and in fact in the business. There's something called the bliss point where they'll for example with cookies they'll take a young child and they'll give them a sample of Cookies with increasing amounts of sugar and when they get to the one where they go, ooh, that's too sweet I don't like that then they take the one just below that and that's the bliss point the maximum amount of sugar That can go into the product before the body rejects it and they call that the bliss point and all those chips all those cookies all the even breads are engineered with or made with sugar to Maximize the amount of hit of dopamine that we get so that we want more and more and more and more so there's there's Addictive quality is built into the food that it takes a lot of Understanding about what's happening biologically to not buy into it. Yeah, and it's hard culturally to just sort of Avoid I mean you can read the package on Everything that you buy if you buy packaged foods. Yeah, but also there's a you know, I just worked in a kitchen for a week Where I found myself salad dressings You know preparing things that You know we make like a you know vegetarian or a vegan cheese And you add sugar because it adds a certain quality To the recipe. Yeah as well. Yeah different than the bliss point So let's like what is that? I mean there's this whole idea of umami or you know the salt sugar the sweet factor Being important in culinary. What's different? What's different between having something like a sweet element? versus That bliss point or addictive sugar. I Think it's a matter of degree You know there's some Like ketchup. I think a serving of ketchup A tablespoon of ketchup has a teaspoon of sugar in it So that's a maximum amount of sugar, but they often put in add sugar To commercial bread baking to help with the browning or maybe to help with the rising of it So there might be reasons to add sugar in the manufacturing process or the food preparation process and then there are often sugar added to Spicy sauces like Thai food often they throw in a little bit of sugar because it offsets the spiciness So there are culinary traditions that use sugar in their cooking naturally, but or more traditionally then Deliberately adding as much as possible They do it more for a flavor enhancement which If that's all we were dealing with that would probably be fine It's just when you start your day with carb refined carbohydrates and then Have a snack and then lunch and then a snack and then more sugar at dinner Then it's that all-day roller coaster with your insulin It may be the sugar that's talking inside my head, but that's where I'm looking I'm looking for that like Do I have to give it all up? Yeah at once and I just wonder if you want to talk a little bit about what the process has been like You talked you you talked about sort of the what happens when the body detox is Are there folks in that 3,500 People that have done this that have found a better a more balanced relationship with sugar Is it I have to give it all up for the rest of my life That's a really great question and in the beginning I usually I don't tell people they have to give it up forever Just get through the detox because then When the cookie isn't talking to you anymore, then you can say do I actually want it Because once you're engaged with oh, I want that cookie, but I can't have it You're engaged in a dialogue with yourself over willpower and that willpower eventually is going to lose so I think initially it took me several two years of cycling in and out of detoxes to try and wean myself off of that dialogue, but it eventually fell away and When you can look at a plate of cookies and it has nothing on you And you really have choice That's a level of empowerment that I hadn't felt In decades I always felt like I had to control my food And now I choose my food and it's a whole different ball game So I usually tell people in the beginning the goal is not to eliminate sugar forever it's to Cultivate a sugar minimal lifestyle And what that means is going to be different for everybody based on their level of activity What's going on biologically if you're dealing with any diagnosis Anything else going on in your body? You want to reduce the how much sugar eating a lot because that inflammation is going to make anything worse So particularly menopausal women when hormones are changing I When I gave up sugar When I finally got it out of my system All the midlife brain fog I was experienced thing just went away now I have crisp clear mental clarity consistent energy throughout the day less joint pain like skin cleared up better sleep like A whole range of midlife malaise Just cleared itself up When people read through this book or what you know or and or go to the Create change lab Website to maybe sign up and become part of this. What are they going to find? What are they what what is this going to offer them? So I work with people in a bunch of different ways people For 1999 can get the book and that includes the entire breaking free from sugar programs. So if you're A self-starter and good at DIY then the whole recipe is right in there Uh for some people and a lot of people trying just the idea of wrapping their head around giving up sugar is So big that they want to be held by the hand and guided And so I have a program called the sweet freedom society, which Has the full breaking free from sugar program in it for free when you join it And when you join the sweet freedom society, um, it's a low monthly fee and there's weekly coaching There's uh workshops. There's uh community discussion There's some recipes resources for parents So there's a you can see that on your website. They can get to it at the create change And maybe I don't know Kevin you have that website the create change lab Um, and we could bring that up to just take a look at it. Sure. Yeah So there they can get a whole package and interact with you And or are there other coaches or are there other folks that are doing this work with people? There are More and more there are sugar freedom coaches and if you you could do a An internet search to find a sugar A lot of them focus on different things Some people focus on the emotional eating piece. Some people focus on the food addiction piece I'm not trained as someone who to dealing with food addiction So for those people who feel like they might really have a food addiction like their obsessive thoughts that it's just beyond their Ability to manage on their own. They should seek out a food addiction specialist And there are people who do that too. So there are people who focus on different aspects, uh, of the of the Sugar dependency food dependency spectrum So thinking beyond the individual here is you know, we get into public health policy We get into legislation, I mean we've seen taxes put on soda as a way of curbing Um consumption Um and or to you know, take those taxes and put them back into health care To offset the impacts What is your role with that and you know, can you imagine a campaign against sugar or a campaign that helps us understand Our relationship to sugar particularly the way there has been for tobacco or seatbelt use or alcohol I would love to see, uh, federal public health dollars Funneled to states to do, uh, much more food education specifically sugar education because in elementary schools all over the country And high schools you find, uh posters that say don't smoke. Don't vape. Don't do drugs. Don't drink alcohol Because they all affect your brain. Well sugar affects the growing brain also and sets up habits that Become very difficult to unwind as people as Children grow. So I think more public awareness about the challenge And the harmfulness of sugar needs to be out there because there is no counter information right now Most people are severely Undereducated about basic nutrition things and they think Having a treat once in a while is fine and it may be fine If it's not on top of a sugary breakfast a carbohydrate laden lunch a carb laden dinner So I mean is the is the industry of sugar making this much money? I mean Yeah, um, is that why I mean why Why is there sugar in everything? That's a longer story. Um, and and we only have a few minutes left. The short answer is Everything spikes after world war two After world war two there were policy changes that Had us growing more corn that was turned into high fructose corn syrup that increased the amount of soda It was a cheap ingredient for soda companies We increased use of glyophosphate and how that might be disrupting generations of microbiome There are What was I gonna say I mean the just the industry around sugar. Yeah as a particular thing yeah, so Because it affects people individually and people have their sweet treats and because it's A sugar and there is a sugar industrial complex. There is a huge amount of business that is Run and manufactured that's tied to farming that's tied to international policy Legislating sugar is a long road and likely it takes a it would take a huge amount of political will For a legislator to propose national Regulations around sugar. Yeah the fact that the new There are a couple years old now The new nutrition facts label has an aligned for added sugar Is a huge boon for public health and the fact that that happened is just a miracle And I think we likely have to thank the obama administration for pushing that through Or marshaling showing leadership in that area Um So There's a huge amount of policy opportunity. I'm keeping my eye on what's happening internationally several countries are trying to legislate Labeling of sugar laden products Mexico has a a warning label On uh sugary foods that have over a certain percentage of sugar That would be really hard to fly in the u.s. But I think there are a whole bunch of other policy initiatives Like we could eliminate Eliminate advertising to sugary foods at on saturday morning Shows that are aimed at kids That should be an easy win just like we took off tobacco off of on air television We should take off sugary foods that are aimed at kids Other policy initiatives look at could look at the farm bill and the food assistance programs There are three major food assistance programs that come out of the farm bill The wick program women infants and children the snap Food assistance also known as formerly known as food stamps And also the school Did I say the school food nutrition program All of those programs are laden with sugar. Yeah You can use your food stamp dollars your snap dollars to buy soda And I think that should absolutely be eliminated because we're Encouraging people to buy soda that hurts their health that Then comes back to harm the country because we've lost the productivity of a person And and aspirations of a person because they have to deal with illness So there are lots of policy initiatives that could help Yeah, and you know, we're coming to a close and I have to say like The almost the entire time we're talking I'm picturing a birthday cake in my head Which just makes me think, you know, the you know, as you said the gut Has these these connections to the brain and our brain is sort of in our gut as well Which makes me wonder about this and I wonder if you can leave us on a note of something that you've done That you feel like is you know, you've you know Beyond that like being able to have a freedom relationship with a plate of cookies But what's a way that you celebrate that doesn't include sugar in your life? So I'll answer that and then I want to leave people with some tips for reducing their sugar One of the things that comes up when I suggest that people Reduce how much sugar they eat their first reaction is oh, I don't want to be deprived But if you take away the chocolate or the cookies the primary source of easy dopamine Of easy hits of pleasure, of course, you're going to be deprived So a primary strategy is to increase other forms of pleasure Our bodies are sensory pleasure machines And engaging in conversation Stepping outside on a on a beautiful day even a damp cold rainy day It gives our skin sensation and our noses and our eyes things to feast on So increasing the amount of pleasure that you get from other things Will resensitize your pleasure center and not D train it retrain it from needing the big hit To know that okay, this is uh, I'm getting my pleasure now and You eventually find pleasure everywhere which intersects with gratitude and being happy and content which Is self perpetuating because if you can step outside on on a rainy day and say What a beautiful rain even in vermont this summer that's a little rough Then you know, you're well on your way to healing that Extra chemical stimulation that you've needed for pleasure On a more practical sense, I can't imagine a celebration that wouldn't be wonderfully Where people wouldn't be beautifully happy with blueberries and whipped cream That pretty much gets you your your sweet your fat your Your you're a little bit of protein. It gets everything all in in one So there are a healthful ways healthful ways to celebrate Without birthday cake. Yeah So and I did want to end with some tips Yeah So the the biggest tip that I offer people in my program is start your day with a savory breakfast so No refined carbohydrates if possible. So that means eggs sausage If you're vegan You could do it with tofu scramble or something with chickpeas or tempeh You just want to minimize your carbohydrates because then you're going to minimize your Your insulin fluctuation and insulin insulin fluctuations are one of the key drivers of cravings Another Major or two major things that go together are water consumption Electrolyte balancing making sure you're getting Minerals so maybe adding a pinch of sea salt to your water bottle Can just help keep you hydrated and help eliminate some of the Tendencies for people to Eat something when they're actually thirsty Uh Keeping an eye on your sleep There's good research to show that the less sleep you get the more likely you are to overeat I think that's because your body is trying to keep the energy going when it didn't get enough sleep and energy And sleep is also when your brain detoxes So if you're not sleeping enough your body is not processing out Not only the sugar residues, but all the other toxicity That you've built up through the day by living in an urban environment or taking in Toxins that we're not aware of Another good thing is to keep moving Because the muscles are The primary driver of metabolism and if your metabolism is cranking and doing well then You're less likely to rely on treats for energy because your your muscles will be maintaining your energy Uh levels throughout the day by burning up stored glucose What else? Strengthen your microbiome your gut by eating lots of vegetables And fermented foods one of the it's one of the things that I emphasize in my program is you want to build up the good bacteria in the gut so fibrous vegetables Broccoli cauliflower all the zucchinis collards Any all the fibrous vegetables will Strengthen the colony of good bacteria in your gut and you can even Enhance that by having fermented foods like kimchi sauerkraut miso yogurt and kiefer Are all ways to help build up a healthy microbiome Well, dr. Andrew Grayson, thank you so much for joining us This was a lot less scary than I thought I will say just to share with folks. Yeah, and um, Appreciate you all watching You're watching town meeting television and if you caught this on television You can also catch us on town meeting tv backslash No youtube.com backslash town meeting tv Or ch 17 dot tv. Thanks