 Hi, everyone. Welcome to this webcast part of MHPN's online conference, Working Better Together. We're really delighted that you've joined us for this. This webcast is part of a content stream around trauma, the impact of adverse childhood experiences. And yeah, my name's Chris Dolman. I'm from Emerging Minds, the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. And yeah, really delighted as I said that you've been able to join us for this hour. So yeah, welcome to those that are sort of listening to this live as well as those that will be viewing this later as a recording. Before we go further, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands on which we are today, on the lands in which you're viewing this from, and really pay our respects to elders past and present and emerging and acknowledge the ongoing connection that the traditional custodians have with those lands. I'd like to continue by also introducing our panel today. We have a group of parents with lived experience who are joining us today to contribute their schools and know-how and experience and perspectives around the topic for today. So welcome to Colleen and to Emmy and to John. Thanks so much for really contributing to our school development as practitioners. It's really a very generous gesture, so thanks so much for that. I'd like to sort of turn now to the learning outcomes that will be orienting our conversation around today. So the first of these is to enable you to gather an understanding of the challenges faced by parents facing adversity when they present its services. What is it that worries them and how can practitioners respond to these worries, these concerns as well? We'll also be exploring some of the practices that practitioners can engage in to support parent-child relationships to overcome the adversities that they're facing. And also how practitioners can support parents through adversity while still maintaining a focus on the social and emotional well-being of their children as well. So this webcast will be focused around four common challenges faced by practitioners. We've gathered these from feedback and comments and questions from previous webinars that emerging minds is conducted in partnership with MHPN as well as from our consultations with other services as well in terms of what is it that practitioners really wanting to understand around working with parents in relation to adversity. So in terms of looking at some of these common practice challenges, these include practice challenges in relation to working with parents around child protection concerns, how practitioners can respond when parents, you know, speaking negatively or ambivalently about their children, how practitioners can support parents who are facing multiple adversities to remain hopeful and mindful of their children and helpful in terms of their children's well-being and also how practitioners can support parents to maintain a focus on their children's social and emotional well-being without feeling stigmatized by their experiences of adversity. So gosh, there's a bit there, folks. We hope to sort of touch on some of those, well, we will be touching on those themes as we talk today. There's a few things that I'd like to let you know about in terms of as participants that will sort of add to your involvement in this webcast. The first is that you're really welcome to submit a question to our panel. We'd really welcome those. And you can do that by clicking on a tab in the bottom right-hand corner of your screen. You'll see a tab there. Click on that. Submit the question and away we go. Also, there is some supporting resources as well, and these can be found on the resources tab again in the bottom corner of your screen. If you've got any technical concerns, there's technical support. Frequently asked questions tab as well. You'll find that in the top of your screen. And yeah, just a reminder to click on the full screen view option. That'll work much better in terms of being able to kind of see and be a part of our conversation here today. Okay, and there is also an exit survey form. It'd be great if you could complete that survey as well. I guess it helps us ultimately get better at what we do. So yeah, please spend some time completing that. There's a tab at the top of your screen as well. So I think I'm done really in terms of the housekeeping stuff. Have I covered off everything you think? I think so. Done well. I think we might as well get into it, really, and begin to have a look at some of these practice challenges that practitioners have raised. So the first one is around child protection, really. And it's a common question that's asked around, how can practitioners have conversations with parents about child protection concerns without shaming or silencing or alienating parents? I mean, I really appreciate this question, because I think it indicates that practitioners are concerned about silencing and shaming parents, but also know something about the importance of raising child protection concerns as well. So John, Amy, Colleen, from your experience, your inside knowledge of this, from a parent's perspective, what kind of is important for you in terms of how practitioners respond to that or work towards that? What comes to mind for you? I think something that's quite important is to just be upfront about what's going on. So when it's a conversation about child protection, just to be upfront, most parents are well aware of child protection issues, that it's going to be on the table or something that is going to be an issue, and silence and shame is already present. So there's not a lot you can do about that. So just stick into, well, this is something that we need to talk about. If this happens, this is going to be a child protection matter. There's no point being around the bush with it. Because you were talking about, with your experience, what really helped was when they said this is the point at which it becomes a child protection issue. So you knew that if you were in this space, everything was okay, but if things got out of that space, it would be a reportable, and you found that helpful. I found that very helpful, because from my experience, when you're in that situation where you're facing a lot of adversity, you're kind of overwhelmed with issues. You've got your children with you, well, mostly, not always, or if you're hoping to have them with you, then you need to do a bit of handing over. So in my own experience, I really wanted to be able to hand over that issue. I felt that I wasn't able to keep my children's needs at the forefront because I was so overwhelmed with what I was already going through. So to know that practitioner, that's what their job is, their first child protection issues, that I could hand that over to them, they will let me know what's going on now is their child protection issue, and we're going to have to make a notification. If that came up, well, that's good to know. I really needed to have that ability to... So the knowledge, so having the information... Information being informed, yes. Yeah, and then that gave you... Yeah, it gave me confidence, and then it gives you a space that you can move around in. Yes. So then you can start to deal with some of the other things that are going on. So I think the message that Emmie was saying is don't beat around the bush. Right, okay. Let's put it out there and make the parent feel that the doctor, or the GP, or the practitioner is really there to help and maybe just reinforcing that, this is the information, I'm here to help you. So, you know, what do we want out of this? Yeah. What can we do to get the best outcome for you? Yeah, yeah, and it's almost the opposite of being careful about shame. And if you're pretending that it's not an issue, that's almost shaming in itself. That's right. It's like, you know, I'm not going to talk about this because I don't trust you with this knowledge, because you're obviously not capable of managing this kind of thing. But it sounds to me that somehow the practitioner's got in your corner. So it seems like there's an alliance where you're both interested, because I mean, as a parent, your number one priority is your children anyway. So if you see someone as in alliance with that, because I think a lot of people see this issue as they're in the opposition corner, and there's a struggle. But the practitioner must have at some point built that strategic alliance, that therapeutic alliance with you. They must have had some trust and support. Not always though. Not always. But even when that isn't there, you can still quickly kind of put it on the table so that, you know, you know that it's not us and them. We're working together, you know. Yeah, child protection. It's about positioning yourself in alliance with what the parent is really concerned about. Yeah, yeah. And also what kind of language you use, being very careful about not using shame. Judgemental, shaming, stigmatizing sort of language. Absolutely. Because one of the things for me that stands out here is that whenever we're dealing with a practitioner or someone in authority is the power imbalance, and there's power structures all the way through there, and that can be really concerning for parents. Well, essentially they have the power to take your children away. Yeah, the parent knows that, yeah. Exactly. So I think if the practitioners can try and address that power, so, I mean, we've got to go to their offices, they're wearing uniform, they're experts, they have authority, they can report, that sort of thing. Yeah, exactly. So I think if practitioners can be aware of that power imbalance and seek to strategically try and align themselves with us as peers, if you like, or try and reduce that imbalance, then I think parents are more likely to be open. Yeah. What have you found helpful in that, John? As a parent, you know, just in terms of what practitioners have done in working with you that have had them, you know, seeking to mitigate that power difference, a bit of that particular things that come to mind for you? One practitioner said something which is beautiful to me because I was struggling with a lot of, and I think men in particular struggle with this whole anger, frustration. I mean, we might have depression and anxiety, but the overt emotion is anger. And one practitioner said to me, she said, you can shout, you can swear, you can say whatever you like, just don't break my stuff or harm me, or good. So she was giving me the opportunity to just be authentic in how angry I was about my situation, and that was beautiful. Right, okay, yeah. She's inviting authenticity. Yeah, so really, yeah, I mean, if they're upfront about it, then they're not silencing it. And it's a fact. Okay, let's work with this. Yes, so being upfront means there's not a silence, doesn't kind of perpetuate the silence around that. And I mean, I was also, when you were talking a bit about how pretending it's not an issue is shaming in itself, I found that a really interesting comment. Yeah, because, look, in so many situations, well, for my again, my experience, you know, you go, you're dealing with adversity, you've had a traumatic incident, your children are part of your life, and they're experiencing that to some degree too. You know that child protection is an issue. You know, it's on the table. You know, you've seen other people be affected by this. So what's the point of pretending it isn't? And what's the point of pretending it's not part of the conversation? So it's the elephant in the room if you're pretending it's not happening. Yes, yeah, yeah. And so, you know, you need to say, well, I trust you with this knowledge. You know, you're capable, you're an adult. You're managing things. Well, when you say, you need to say that people should just imply that or actually be more explicit. Yeah, explicit, absolutely. You're actually giving the parent credibility when you actually, you know, are honest and upfront. Yes, yeah. And then that also invites a conversation of honesty and authenticity. Lovely. Which is what you really need to look for is honesty. So you're wanting parents to be authentic and not open and honest. Yes. So you've got to marry that. Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. That's good. Yeah, that's good. There's something about that, Colleen. Yeah, it's quite secure. Yeah, I think, because the parent, in those circumstances is, I mean, you know, they're already feeling the shame, the guilt, the low self-esteem, the extreme worry about their children, et cetera. So really if that's, if the practitioner can really give them some good information that they can work with, that's the key. Yeah, yeah. And then if that trust is built, then they can really build on that and then, you know, really, really help someone. Yeah. And it's not like, I don't think that it's going to be that, you know, the practitioner says, well, if you do this or this or this, it's going to be, you know, a notification. And so all of a sudden the parent is going to, you know, withhold that information. I don't think that's going to happen. The parent wants to have the best thing for the child. You know, for me, having that knowledge is really useful because that gives me a framework and a guideline and a boundary. And, you know, I think, well, if the worst comes to worst and I'm just valuing my children, I know that, you know, there are these frameworks and guidelines and boundaries that have been put in place by professionals who know what they're doing. This is their job and they can take over. And it gives me a bit of a safety blanket. Yeah. And I know John, you were sort of asking Amy some questions and Colleen some questions before a bit about kind of, you know, what it is that has to proceed the upfrontness, in a way, in a conversation with people. And you were wondering a bit about whether there's some other things that need to be spoken about in terms of the parent's experience or beyond the adversities. Yeah. And I guess this, for me, it's the idea of that therapeutic alliance kind of thing. It's building trust and rapport. I just think it's absolutely critical. And sometimes it can be challenging to do, particularly if you're a practitioner with a huge case load to build that trust and rapport, but it has to be done. You've got to listen to people's story. That's the key to it while being non-judgmental as well. Okay. Yeah. And that somehow makes the upfrontness around child protection concerns more possible in a way? Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. Yeah. It creates an empathy, isn't it? Yeah. If you're willing to listen to somebody's story, Exactly. You say, I'm empathetic with you and there's compassion in this room. Yeah. Okay. I suppose that's one of the risks that practitioners face themselves is you listen to all these stories, so many stories. And if you did it for a long time, and I suppose in this child protection area, there is quite a high burnout among practitioners, particularly in the government services, child safety services in Tasmania. So it can be really tough to listen to those stories and to ask more about their stories and have the patience for those stories to come out. Yeah. I think it's absolutely essential to do. Yeah. I think so as well. Yeah. Ah. Should we have a look at some other challenges now, or other things that people wanted to say? Yeah. Okay. So we had the next challenge we thought we'd take a closer look at. Again, coming from previous webinar questions is, yeah, how can practitioners respond to parents where the parent is holding very negative opinions or feelings towards a child that are adversely affecting the child's well-being? So again, I think many practitioners would be familiar with this, that in meeting with parents at times, parents speak in ways about their own children that might be hard to hear. And so practitioners find themselves wanting to respond to this. Yeah, but take care around how they respond to these sentiments of parents, I guess. So again, like how can practitioners respond to parents when parents are saying, expressing very negative views about a child that we could make a guess would be impacting on the child's well-being if they were present in the home or in their relationship with the child? What comes to mind, yeah? Well, firstly, I mean, the parent, yes. I mean, the practitioner would then realise that the parent, obviously realise that the parent is... The negativity is really coming from the parent. It's not because the child is bad. So it's really about addressing where the parent is and also breaking it down into the relationship with the child and pulling out some positives. You know, even daily things that they can discuss and that possibly the parent does enjoy doing with the child. Can I just come back to what you said when you said, you know, the negativity is coming from the parent. It's not the child that's bad. Like, why did you want to be so clear about that? Well, I mean, not going on... I mean, I suffered from post-natal depression with both of my children quite severely and was hospitalised. And unfortunately, the terrible by-product with that is that you have a disconnection with your child and you feel that the child almost doesn't belong to you and that generally the child is creating all the problems. So there can be some resentment towards the child as well. Yes, resentment and there's a lot of blame. When you're unwell, there's a lot of blame and it's all the child's fault. And it's not at all right. It's because you're unwell. Absolutely. And so for you, that's important that practitioners kind of get that? Yeah, I think if a parent's coming in and they're having issues with the child, you always have to look at the parent. How's the parent coping? Where's the parent at? Okay, because the parent is the key, the such important part of the parent-child relationship. And so that has to be looked at. And it can be even started off subtly and just seeing how the wellbeing is of the parent and then working towards the relationship with the child. My other thing is if that trust is built with the practitioner, depending, but sometimes bringing the child in with the parent together. Okay. And seeing how that relationship is. And then a lot of the time the practitioner then can really emphasize the positives there. Yeah, they're in on the spot. There's already a positive relationship there. But a lot of the time the parents, the parent that's struggling, it looks differently in their mind. So that would have some direct evidence then of positive relationships and positive interactions that they can draw on and put into history with that family. When you say put into history, what do you mean? Lock it in. It can be referred back to. So I remember when you were together that I saw this or this or I heard you talk about this. These are actual things that have happened that they can draw on. It's nice when they do that because then you can see that there's a trajectory that you're actually improving or getting somewhere with this. Yeah, because in the moment you feel like this is not getting anywhere. It's Groundhog Day. Same crap, different date. For someone to say, you know what, this was happening six months ago. It's not happening anymore. This was happening three months ago. It's not happening anymore. So you think, oh, okay. I actually am making progress. I'm not just trading water. But on this whole emotion thing, I don't reckon there'd be too many parents around that have not felt resentment to their children, even if they didn't have a mental illness. But it's not... How do you talk to about the fact that you resent your child? It's just... It's unspoken. You can't say that. It's like you're a horrible parent. And we all... Parenting is a competitive sport these days. When you're taking kids to school, you're looking around and they're doing this and they're doing that and then you're thinking, I'm not doing any of those things. I really need to lift my game. So guilt, shame, resentment on my bad parent, all that sort of stuff, it kind of almost goes with parenting. But it's really important to normalise these emotions. Because we're all feeling it, but nobody is talking about it. So I think for a practitioner to say, you know what? To feel resentment as a parent is really, really common and it's really, really normal. But sometimes that emotion can have an impact on your relationship with a child. So let's deal with it. Let's talk about it. Let's work out where it's coming from. Let's give you some skills around managing that resentment. And for a bloke, before I had a mental illness, I had no emotional literacy whatsoever. If you had have asked me how I was feeling, I would have said, alright, or I would have said, bit shit, something like that. And neither of those are feelings. So when you start talking to a dad about are you feeling guilty, are you feeling shame, are you feeling resentment, I'd be going, I don't know. So for a practitioner to give men some emotional literacy, because if you can't get them to acknowledge how they're feeling, how do you work with it? And maybe it's a little bit easier for you guys to say, okay, I am feeling resentment. I think we've got to give people some emotional skills around managing difficult emotions. Acceptance commitment therapy, we talked about some mindfulness stuff about emotions and not gravitating to hard towards those emotions. Being able to stand back and be objective with them. And that also brings the idea of actually giving the parents some basic skills as well. Maybe they need some basic skills with some child management issues. Maybe there is an actual issue which the child might have a medical issue that needs to be addressed that can come out in these conversations. So I think that also needs to be looked at too. Why actually is the parent so negative? Where is it coming from? Tell me your story. Is that what you mean? Tell me your story? Where is something about the negative emotions? Where is it coming from? What are you meaning? Is there an actual issue with the child that is creating some behaviour problems that needs to be looked at? Do they need a referral or is it something else? So just dig a little bit deeper and find out. So some practical strategies can help as well because one of the things that I felt a lot of shame over was how I punished my children because they just used to wind me up. So it was more about my anger and anxiety going through the roof and then punishing them out of that. But if I had had a practitioner with me to give me some strategies about how I could manage that, they're in the back seat, they're carrying on and I'm pulling over and wanting to thump the kids. So can someone please give me some strategies around this? And then I might not feel so much shame, resentment towards the kids, etc. So it can be really practical. Quite a particular sort of situation where a parent really is quite, say, derogatory towards a child in speaking with a practitioner and the words are just hanging there. From your perspective, what's important for a practitioner to do when those words are hanging there, and a practitioner is thinking, maybe this is affecting how... Sometimes a parent doesn't even realise that they're speaking in this way. No. Well, I mean, for me, I had a lot of professional help and I found that a few things that really worked for me, they would fill me with my child. So when I was quite unwell and I actually was able to look back and go, oh my God, you were actually doing okay. Why were you giving yourself such a hard time? So that really helped. And I got a lot of skills, slowly developed a lot of skills with the help that I got, which was to really slow it down and just maybe do one thing. Just do one thing with your child that you like to do and just creating that little bond. And you were up for that? You were open for that? It helped. And it isn't easy initially, but it did help to change the feelings etc. But in saying that, when you're unwell, the child I think is affected. And if the child is old enough, I think again you bring the child into the practitioner, into the conversation and giving them the right information. It's really not the child's fault. It's just where the parents are and we can work together to have some fun. Because at the end of the day, the child wants to have fun. Colin, did you learn to be more compassionate towards yourself in any of this? Slowly, very slowly. Has anyone ever been proactive about helping you to be compassionate about yourself as a parent? Because I think that's something that could be done. With the professional help that I got, one of the keys was to really be kind to yourself. So then you can give yourself time out. The other thing is a lot of the time this parent or if a parent has negative feelings towards a child, a lot of the time if it's a single parent family, a single parent, they're very overwhelmed with the job. It's relentless. And it's 24-7. It's incredible. And even if some breaks can be like as in breaks from parenting. I love the idea of giving yourself a time out. I remember when my first child was young and you know when they get too tired, you haven't put them down early enough to sleep. And then they won't go to sleep and they just scream and the scream just used to make me wild. And in the end, I used to give myself a time out. In bed, I know that. I know he's not hungry. He's changed so he's not wet. He's warm. I know I've put a blanket around him and he's in bed. He's in his cot and he needs his sleep. And I've just locked the doors and I've shut every single door between his bedroom and the lounge room and I've turned the music up. Because I need to calm down because I'm just going to get wild. You do. You need to take a break. You need to break or any parent well or well you need that break. So what can practitioners be doing to support these kind of initiatives for parents? Something like when you were talking about language that made me think that sometimes parents, they're not really aware of the language that they're using. They might have a lot of resentments and these kind of things will help now. The practitioner can sometimes gently remind the parent of the language that they're using actually draw attention to it question why they're using that language and even in the conversation start to put in alternative words, you know, more compassionate words and sometimes the parent will just pick up on that. So it can also be about how that practitioner models conversations as well. Models conversations about the child skills because if you're hell bent in this situation and you've been like this for a while, you're full of trauma, you're not thinking right, your kids are in there, you really are resentful of them, you know, because everything is bad and negative, you're going to have to have some skills to kind of pull yourself out of that situation and the practitioner can just start to kind of get you up on the beach, you know, the sand of sandy shore of, you know, it doesn't have to be like this. And maybe work at looking at some support services that might be available to that parent whether they can actually get a break or they can even go to a group. I mean the most comforting thing for any parent is when you talk to another parent and they have a similar story. I'm not alone. Because you do feel, you know, parenting is very isolating. It's an isolating experience. It's a very isolating experience and it's a tough gig. If you've got extra layers that are making it a lot more difficult then you need that support and if the practitioner has access or to some support services that they feel would be useful, even if when the parent leaves for that session, giving them some actual numbers and something to take away a piece of paper to take away because then they that piece of paper will come out and they'll look at that number and you know what, they'll ring it. Can I just pause a bit? We've had a couple of questions coming that provide a bit of a link between this theme and the next one we're hoping to speak about. There's a couple of questions that revolve around beginning conversations with families. So one here from Sarah asked a bit about what are some appropriate questions to begin to open dialogue with parents, with families. So in the situation perhaps where parents are not just speaking negatively about their children but also parents that are facing multiple adversities in their lives and in their children's lives what are some appropriate opening questions that can be asked of parents and to begin to get that conversation going. So imagining families as you can well imagine that are going through pretty significant times tough times how can practitioners begin? I like asking people tell me a bit about yourself and then also parents love to talk about their children usually tell me a bit about your children and tell me a bit about what an average day might look like for you and what are some of the challenges that you face at the moment and asking people what concerns do you have about your situation at the moment what would you like to change about your situation and what are you hoping for things like that. I think that's pretty important to put them all in the parents' court and ask them what's top on your list. What's bugging you? Open questions are really good. I think sometimes in that situation the parent is just going to be so incredibly overwhelmed with stuff and so to help with that overwhelming maybe externalise it write it down the issues so you can prioritise them and break them up this can be dealt with now this can be dealt with down here so it creates a space for that parent. I'm so asking what would you like for the time that we have together. I think it might be good just for me to name the challenge that we're getting on to now on account of those questions when parents are facing immediate and multiple adversities how can practitioners help parents remain positive and hopeful and mindful of their child's wellbeing even when problems seem overwhelming in the face of overwhelming adversities how can hopefulness positivity being mindful of children how can that be supported by practitioners I think by breaking it down gives you an opportunity to look for specific examples where hope can be inserted where you can have the possibility of true beginning resolutions so when you say breaking it down breaking what down breaking down the overwhelming issues so you're presenting with overwhelming adversity and the parent is just going to think oh there's so much how can I possibly change this it's their life so if you break it down externalize it you can then pinpoint different things this can be done in this way you can also then bring the child into that conversation one of the tough ones is when some of that adversity can't be changed quickly so for example in the issue of not finding secure housing you can go on the housing list but it can take quite some time for that to actually happen arming parents with an idea of what is the minimum that you need to be doing for your child to keep your child well and I think parenting doesn't have to be that complicated in terms of what's good for children feeding kids it's pretty easy to feed kids nutritious food at fairly low cost and not a lot of hassle but what kids really really need is someone who's attentive and it doesn't have to be all day if you've got half an hour a day to actually sit there and listen to your kids stories they seem like long stories and sometimes you just wish they'd cut to the chase but being able to actually listen to that child be supportive and love them even if it's for that half an hour is brilliant for child welfare yeah so again with the practitioner I think after listening to the parent with the adversities and the overwhelmingness of their situation trying to again I think pull out a couple of positives or break it down into ok what can we do what can we start doing this week for your child just something simple once they've listened to the story that that can help build the relationship make the parent feel good because they feel they're doing something really positive and then something that the child's going to benefit from and the practitioner I mean look we all realize that can just be something really simple and keeping it within the boundaries that parent can cope with so it can be pretty hard to pull out that's right you can always find them it can be very hard for the parent to pull it out but the practitioner that's what the practitioner will be able to so what helps them do that for a parent's perspective what do you think helps someone with depression got up and got out of bed and made their kids lunch that's a real win that's great because it can be so hard to get up out of bed I remember I used to stay in bed until the kids left for school and I had to get them really early to be able to make their own lunches and I did facilitate that so I guess that's a good thing that's a win they had a box where it had all the sandwich meat the lunch, the salad, the lettuce and the margarine so they just had to get that out and make the sandwich but a practitioner is going to be looking for those things to say and even to say how did you do that like how did you get out of bed how do you manage to do it on weekdays and the parents going to talk about the values and their goals for their children and what's important to them and you can really reinforce and on that note if you're in a refuge in your homeless whatever housing might be a long-term way down the track and you can acknowledge that and say look you're not going to be housed for a certain amount of time that's off the card but you're here looking after your kids you can then talk about that you're here to have a safe home for your kids I can see that you love them and care for them so even the worst situations can have some positives in them so even the person, the parent being there can be it can be a positive they can be more they can be said about that in terms of absolutely the parent might not realise this no in fact they probably won't making things really practical for parents as well as the child well-being so if it's something like why don't we work on for the next month just reading a story to them once a day either before bedtime or sometime in the afternoon or something like that I mean that's pretty practical it doesn't take a long time and you can even talk to parents about what time of day do you feel better because often people with mental illness some people will feel okay in the morning some people will feel okay in the afternoon absolutely horrible in the morning so when are good times for you and how about in this time we just give 15 minutes or half an hour to go for a walk with our child or reading a story or just some sort of interaction something that they can do yeah it's doable and I think the key thing for the practitioner maybe to address with the parent is that you're not always going to enjoy this but that's okay that's okay if you don't enjoy it totally because you know what your child is going to get a great benefit because you will enjoy it it will come it will come as things slowly improve it will become more enjoyable because probably every task for a parent that's suffering from or in adverse situation anything you know you're going to make them stressed and more so the story how am I going to fit that in but it's like just do one thing and you know it will make a difference the smallest thing will make a difference how can you ensure though that parents don't how can practitioners ensure that parents don't end up kind of feeling like a bit of a failure if they're not able to pull that sort of stuff off if they're not able to carry that out how did you go reading that story I didn't do it can you tell me about that what were some of the barriers was it a timing thing did the children not want to sit and you can explore it and you can be very non-judgmental about it and also find out what it is that the parent already does and work with that you're doing something finding out what they're already doing maybe they go for a walk every day with a dog can you bring him along or finding out something that the parent can do it's got to be achievable and you can get them into that sort of dopamine loop you know I did it and then you get the boost because you did it I really like how you said if we can get parents to behave in a certain way that's good for the child even though they might not feel like it because your feelings become huge with mental illness and they feel like they're overwhelming and they feel like they control you they just cannot bring myself to do that but if we realise that feelings are just feelings they come and go and they're not necessarily they don't even necessarily mean anything they're just there but sometimes I can behave in a way that's really good for my child even though I'm not feeling it and maybe my feelings might change when I start to behave in a different way and that separate the two that was one of the key things that I was that was given to me when I was a child I used that especially in the early years I'm sure I still use it today that you know now I don't feel like it but it and it really does pay off because you do feel good that you've done it and it's not faking it either because it's actually in line with our values we value our child's welfare we value our children's development and we value caring for our children so it's not faking it we're actually acting directly in line with our values I think also in terms of the overwhelming aspect actually having something written down like some sort of plan so that parents can actually refer to it otherwise you can sit there and hear all this you walk outside it's just gone what sort of plan do you mean? this is what you're going to do these are the steps you're going to take to ensure that you're building on the relationship this is what we're dressing here here and here so just kind of write it out so that the parent can refer to it I really appreciated that I had a couple of psychologists and the first one didn't write anything down for me and I can't remember anything that we talked about the second one I was a little bit more directive so I said could you give me some stuff to think about in the next month before seeing you because I don't know what to think about my brain is just everywhere and she was great so she'd scribble little notes and say here's where we are here and this is where we're going to get to and she'd write some stuff down for me to think about and I could go away with that I had something and then you can bring it back as well and say oh yeah I did this and yeah that was really good and it's a conversation starter and you can refer to it and the other thing that helped me was was tick lists I don't know if you ever did that but I used to write down things to do like a life hack for me and even stuff that I'd already done like if I'd forgotten to make my list by 10 o'clock I'd write down get kids off to school make lunches and stuff and then I'd tick them even if I'd already done it and it was this visual thing of going tick tick tick wow I'm actually making progress today can I just highlight a particular aspect of this question I think might be good just to sort of hone in on a bit like it's about when on account of the multiple adversities that parents are facing and the way they're being described I guess by parents practitioners might have a sense that the child's wellbeing is kind of being lost in all of that does that make sense that their children's wellbeing is being lost in what's going on and so again I'm interested in your ideas about what are some ways that practitioners can helpfully bring the child's wellbeing into the conversation in amongst lots of discussion and talk about adversities what is it that can how can practitioners do that in a way that's again not silencing or shaming practitioners have got to give parents information about what is child wellbeing I suppose I didn't have an understanding of what child wellbeing was until I actually started doing some stuff with emerging minds and then I realised what constituted child wellbeing for example when I talked to my children about the fact that I'd just been diagnosed with a mental illness it was a terrifying conversation but I only learnt afterwards what I probably should have said things like it's not your fault dad's going to get better because dad's getting treatment you don't have to make dad better it's not your responsibility to make dad better you can't catch it and here are some supports for you so I think if practitioners can arm parents with language and ideas about child wellbeing so you've actually got something objective because child wellbeing to me sounds like this really nebulous idea of what is child wellbeing if practitioners can sort of say this is what constitutes child wellbeing and here are some things that you can do to ensure that your child is okay and tying that in with what the parent can achieve and we don't want to be offering them anything that is not achievable for that parent we don't want to put child wellbeing up there and also just bringing the child into the conversation as well so if you're talking about problems which the parent is having it's obviously going to affect the child to some degree so just directly saying well and this can help your child blah blah blah and so actually making sure that they're a part of that conversation there's been a couple of questions around parenting programs actually so I might just reach the questions so oh yeah so May asks how can practitioners get parents buy in on attending regular parenting programs like you might have heard or may not have heard programs like Circle of Security and Triple P this kind of thing amidst parents busy life and I guess the multiple things parents are up against how can practitioners make this work for parents so I guess again for parents facing multiple adversities where on account of the child's wellbeing practitioners might be thinking I've got a program in the mind that could be really helpful for this parent and this child one way you could sell it is that there's always strain in your relationship with your children there's always things about parenting that bug you and there's stress and you know we were talking earlier about just kids just doing stuff and not thinking about spilling milk everywhere and you know this sort of thing so there's always aggravation I think if practitioners could sell the idea of suggesting a parenting program to parents in saying that this will actually potentially make things better for you at their experiences at parent it might potentially alleviate some stress and some issues that are going on skill building when I was in the refuge system I was actually in that situation and I was advised about a circle security parenting program and I remember thinking how on earth am I going to be able to do that you know I was living in the city I had no transport no car I didn't know where anything was I had to catch trains there with my kids and so what helped me was first of all the person told me that it was a good program and it had been going on for a while and it was very respected and very helpful and so they saw the program basically on its merits and that other parents have found it so helpful and there wasn't any shame involved in that conversation like you know so I didn't get the sense that I needed to go because I was a bad parent and then we looked at the practical aspects of going there how are you going to go there when are you going to go there what time works with you when when which start date works with you and so I was kind of guided in the actual practical aspect of getting there and acknowledging that there are barriers but what can we do about that and to break it down because even for me when I was unwell and I'd have to go to see my professional health professional and I would actually take my child with me which was I think really beneficial but just even me working that out and to get there but I think in the end because I knew I was benefiting from it so it's I mean you can't make them but you can make it achievable try to break it down on how it could be done even on a week by week basis can you get there this week what do you think has me wondering what a practitioner needs to be mindful of before even suggesting a program because you know you spoke a bit about how when to hear the suggestion was initially how am I going to do that kind of thing in a way it could potentially add to the overwhelmingness for a parent's circumstances I just wanted to what a practitioner needs to be mindful of before proposing these ideas. I think anything's going to add to the overwhelmingness but if it's solved correctly and if the practitioner really believes that this parent is really going to benefit from this try and work out together how at least they can get there to one session yeah I mean and hopefully it starts to alleviate the overwhelming nature of the parenting interaction but I think one of the skills Chris that I use a little bit now that I'm a peer support worker using my lived experience working with parents is the idea of motivational interviewing which asks parents you know what are some of your reservations about doing this so you do have some motivation to do it you know your parenting skills your relationship with your child etc but what are some of the reservations in exploring those the downsides well the downsides are I need money for transport I don't have the time etc we've got to name them up and acknowledge them and then deal with them so motivational interviewing is a skill I think is really good I'm a bit mindful of the time folks but I also wanted to sort of touch on the fourth practice challenge although I think some of what we've said already may have covered off on part of it but just in case there are other things that come to mind as we begin discussing it so the fourth practice challenge again raised by other practitioners how can practitioners help parents both focus on the social and emotional well-being of their children without feeling stigmatized for their experiences of adversity so again this concern about stigmatizing parents is really prominent for practitioners how can practitioners help parents focus on their kids I think at the very start of it creating a space for the parent to talk the parent might not want to share the story they might have done it a thousand times already but at least creating that space to do that and then that kind of says that you're not your problem your person beyond all this you're not defined by your mental illness so when you say creating a space can you say a bit more from your experience about how practitioners have done that for you in helpful ways I guess asking me about how I got there would you like to tell me some of your story just something basic having the opportunity to share your story because sometimes I really needed to speak to it sometimes I didn't want to at all because I've done it too many times but just knowing that I was going to be listened to and validated was a huge thing and to be given that option yeah it's difficult for practitioners because if they're only going to see you as a one-off for you to tell your story and open up it can be a bit re-traumatizing that's why you need to have that option but if you're working with people long term the key question is not what's wrong with you but what happened to you so that's that whole trauma informed way of asking it differently using different language making them feel comfortable to tell their story I think for me many times I would get you know you've done a really good job even though you never think you are or have done you've done a really really good job okay so how can we build on this so it's building up the parent so they feel confident to tell their story and I think as John said normalizing that you know parenting is a tough gig for everyone and everyone feels guilt and shame and blame every sort of parent people are pretty self-critical too we set a high standard for ourselves we do all the things that we should do you can get killed by the shoulds yeah I think yeah I'm not doing that social media hasn't helped with any of that but at the end of the day yeah the child's needs are really quite simple they just need a loving initially loving parent that doesn't need to be there on tap 24-7 because that parent needs self-care that parent needs to have self-care to parent well that's the biggest thing probably if you've got a mental illness you need to recover so recovery takes some focus as well but I think linking in parental recovery with child wellbeing is important too the better you are travelling the better your children will travel and you look at things differently because if you're recovering well and you're giving yourself that time to recover and you're getting the right help the parenting does change it really does it's not as overwhelming it's not as frustrating it's just can I say with mental illness and recovery in my case I've no doubt it's happened in your case as well what you've learned about recovery and about wellbeing for yourself you then pass on to your kids so I think we can end up with even more resilient kids so one of the things I do with my kids because I had no help seeking skills particularly as a bloke you don't want to get any help you feel independent so when blokes really hit the wall we start to think of suicide because I don't want to get any help for anyone I can't solve the problems I need to take myself out but learning to help seek was a really important skill for my kids now to help seek so my daughter had some issues one time and I said you've got four choices you've got to go to school and face this she wouldn't face something at school so I said you can talk to the social worker you can talk to a trusted teacher you can get your friends on board and disclose to them what's happening get some support or we're going to call kids help line that's your four choices she chose to get her friends on board and they said yeah we've got your back girl kids help line in the past they're learning those skills so I think kids can come out really well I agree because even with my own experiences and also all the language that's exposed to children these days suicides talked about openly it's used in joke and so you're talking about a lot of things earlier and for me because of my own experiences and emotional development and growth through all the years of recovery I feel as though I'm able to give my children some skills or just to look at things differently and so again I wonder what are the implications of what you're saying for practitioners to maybe look at things differently and give some practical skills like the kids help line training the kids training the parent to train the kids because my kids also use the kids help line and that was given to me to give to the children by a practitioner I didn't know about it so just practical skills what supports are out there for your kids and that also kind of passes the burden on a little bit too and that's just made me think even with the practitioners now I'm sure a lot of them look at these parents in this particular way but these parents that are struggling are actually have such wealth of great things about them as a parent that's just not tapped into and it's really about encouraging them to encouraging the parent to tap into those great you're a survivor you're doing a very resilient and we can help you keep your children keep them safe them grow I think that's a really lovely and significant kind of point for us to begin to finish today I'd like to thank you each of you for your sharing your know-how and your experience your perspectives and thank you all for engaging with us in this webcast sorry to those folks who we did not respond to their questions but we appreciate them nonetheless so thanks very much for joining us there's a couple of things I'd just like to just like to mention before we finish firstly you know if what we've talked about today is further interest to you if you'd like to follow up more around some of the some of the things that have been spoken about today I really encourage you to access the resources that Emerging Minds and the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health has available from our website www.emergingminds.com.au yeah this conversation has been recorded and will be available shortly in a couple of or next Monday on the MHPN website so you're very welcome to access it again there go back over the best bits and continue to reflect on what's being spoken about today please again spend a couple of minutes filling out the Exit Survey feedback form that's really helpful for all of us and I think it was a great acknowledgement another one coming up after this yeah that's right we have a second webinar at three o'clock in time where three practitioners will be addressing these same challenges really drawing on what John and Emmy and Colleen have spoken about today and then extending on that through their own knowledge and experience as well so please yeah I'd encourage you to tune into that one as well if that's possible and we also have Emerging Minds and MHPN have an additional webinar around this theme of trauma and the impact of adverse childhood experiences next Thursday the 6th of June at 7.15 as well so you'll be very welcome to link in with that as well so yeah thanks very much folks