 Today's episode of For Good Reason is brought to you by Audible. Please visit audiblepodcast.com slash FGR for your free audiobook download. And maybe you'll choose a title by Michael Schirmer or some other notable skeptic. There's something like 60,000 titles to choose from. Again, that's audiblepodcast.com slash FGR for your free audiobook download today. It's Sunday, May 2nd, and this is For Good Reason. Welcome to For Good Reason. I'm DJ Grohthy. For Good Reason is the radio show and the podcast produced in association with the James Randi Educational Foundation, an international nonprofit whose mission is to advance critical thinking about the paranormal, pseudoscience, and the supernatural. My guest this week is Paul Provenza. He's been a major name in stand-up comedy for decades. He's the co-creator and director of the critically acclaimed comedy documentary The Aristocrats that he did with Penn Gillette. He's written, produced, starred in several comedy specials, including the comedy talk show Comics Only for Comedy Central, and his own one-man show for Showtime, The Incredible Man Boy. He's an artistic consultant to the Montreal and Chicago Just for Laughs festivals, and he's currently co-producing and starring in The Green Room with Paul Provenza for Showtime. Paul Provenza, what an honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. I love being on places with the agenda and the content that you guys do. Well, that's great. And you said that just like we rehearsed. Paul, this is a fantastic book, Satter Ristas. Thank you. It's, you know, admittedly not the kind of book that I've usually featured in the 250 author interviews I've recorded over the last few years. But it is actually on many of the same kinds of topics. It just happens to feature comedians. Yeah, I think all the issues that you deal with that skeptics and atheists and thinkers and rationalists deal with on a day-to-day basis sort of deals with all of those, but through the prism of comedy and communicating all that stuff in a funny way to people. And so that's my first question. What was your inspiration? Are you some kind of skeptic atheist trying to shoehorn comedians into your world view? Or in other words, why go to comedians and talk about these things and not just, hey, why'd you get into comedy? Well, you know, the book is specifically about people who do transgressive and subversive and iconoclastic comedy, be it satire or some variant on the form. And that's what we focused on. And you know, those people are generally the thinkers and they're humanists. That's the reason that they're motivated to work in that fashion and talk about those kinds of things. So obviously, these kinds of ideas would come up over and over again. But the book really sprung from the photography. The artwork in the book is actually the genesis of it. Dan Dion's photography, I think, is so compelling. It's so rich and interesting. And I think it just captures aspects of these performers that is just authentic, as opposed to most photography of comedians, where it's like, you know, the photographer is always like, you know, do something wacky. Here's a here's a stick. Be hilarious, you know. Dan really tries to get to the artist and the human behind it all. And it was his work that actually drove this whole project. He said, you know, I want to do a book and my photographs, what can we do together? And so I decided if I can do some sort of verbal portrait that is as intuitive and emotive as his photography is that that would be a really nice mix. So then I set out to have conversations with people to just try and get some things out of them that that in the proper context would be sort of suggestive and would sort of create some ideas and thoughts and kind of get you going, you know, trying to try and show what it is about these people and the kind of work they do that is so interesting to me rather than tell you. But my own background, I mean, yes, I'm a hardcore atheist and skeptic, you know, you can't be good friend with Penn Gillette otherwise. So that's sort of obvious. But yeah, and I just believe that it's, you know, I'm so taken aback by, you know, what's happened in the world and what's happened in America in terms of, you know, religiosity and all of that nonsense. And so I'm also a very big champion of anybody who's doing stuff that challenges that. Okay, so you mentioned maybe that you have this sort of motivation agenda, whatever, but you're not having to shoehorn these artists into it. They're naturally coming from that place already. And you're giving them an opportunity to talk about things that normally maybe in an interview, they don't have the chance to. Right, exactly. And, you know, because it's a it's not a journalistic interview format, it's more of an artist to artist comic to comic conversation format. So they're really loose and, you know, and they get really open about the things they think and feel. And no, it's far from a shoehorning. I mean, most comedians generally, they're skeptical, they're thinkers, they're, we're talking about artful comedians here, obviously, you know, there's, there's people who just go out there and tell jokes. But there are people who are artists in this, in this realm, everybody in the book is one of those. And, you know, they're thinkers and they, and they read a pot and they're just, they're smart people. So for the most part, most of them fall on the side of skeptic and atheist, you know, their whole mode of living is not taking things for granted and looking behind the, you know, the obvious, seeing where all the BS really is. So no, it's a far from shoehorning. And in fact, they're in, in the book are several little discussions, most notably between Mark Marin and Dana Gould, where I actually have an argument with them about their misconceptions of what atheists are, you know, they did that conventional sort of, well, like atheism is just like another religion and it's another dogma and all that, you know, and so I got a chance actually in print to go, well, no guys, let me explain something to you here, you know. So no, it's, it's, it's far from a shoehorning. It's a very natural thing that turns up. Paul, this is, I want to emphasize for our listeners, this is really a collection of the biggest names in comedy. And by reading it, it's obvious what you were saying just a minute ago that these really are among the smartest people out there. I remember Pendulat, you mentioned him. He said to me once, how intelligent you have to be to be a successful comedian. He was actually talking about a well known comedian getting into this public debate with a, with a scientist and how the comedian necessarily had a leg up on the scientists. So here's my question. Did you talk with any of these great minds in the course of putting this book together, these great minds in comedy and come away thinking, wow, this guy, this woman is so sharp that he or she should be in government or public service or something trying to help us solve our problems in society, rather than just out there working to make people laugh. It's funny that you mentioned that because in fact, Randy Credico is featured prominently in the book. And as of this conversation, Randy Credico is running against Chuck Schumer for the New York Democratic Senate seat. Wow. And Randy is a, he calls himself a comedian slash activist. Randy used to do stand up in Nicaragua, Sandinistas. And Randy is like a real rebel and he works with the William, William M. Kuntzler Defense Foundation fighting against the injustices of the Rockefeller drug laws. And he's now actually moving into the political arena. He's gone beyond activism to try and run for office. So yes, there are some people for whom that's a natural fit. But interestingly, most everybody in the book is more about, they'll admit to being able to smell where the gas is coming from, but they have no skills involved in fixing the leak. Perfect metaphor. So their way of helping society address the problems is actually communicating the important ideas through comedy. Yeah. And to sort of point out what they see as irrational or injustice or that sort of thing and how we've all been seduced into group thinking. Here's a very interesting thing about comedians, because comedians actually do engage in group think. I mean, that's what a great stand up show is. It's getting all these different people to find the same thing funny at the exact same moment so that it actually creates an involuntary physical response in everybody at the same time. It's just the most massive effort at group think, right? So when it comes to social issues, it comes to governmental policy, it comes to the media, it comes to how ideas are existing out there in society and culture. These people know how it got to the place it's at. They know the mechanics of group think so they can unmask it real, real cleanly. One of the things I like most about this is that you get into that unmasking. You're not just doing some gushing Q and A collection of, you know, so how'd you get into comedy? How'd you become so successful? Instead, you zero in on the why of their comedy, their motivations and why they're actually dealing with the topics you just mentioned, you know, criticism or religion and superstition, why they get into politics, the issues you know they're addressing in politics or social justice issues like poverty, sexism, racism, gay rights. I'm curious, did you talk about any of these issues with any of these great comedians in the book? When you're one-on-one with them, did they kind of clam up were they a little more reluctant to talk about these controversial issues than they would be say on stage in front of a big audience? No, quite the opposite. In fact, because I'm a comedian and I approached all of these things through the experience of doing comedy. I mean like I would talk about these issues and say when you do comedy about these issues, you know, how do people perceive it? How do you think it's, you know, when you get, have you had difficult reactions to it and what was, you know, how did you process all of that and what did it say about, you know, the way people perceive these issues and all those sorts of things. So in talking with them as a comedian, in talking with them about their experience in dealing with all this stuff as another comedian, they actually are more open to it, you know, and more free in the conversation about it because the conflict, any dissonance between us in the conversation is never about the issues. I love hearing their ideas about the issues, but I'm more interested in how they communicate it, why they care about it, and how it's received because that's really, really a fascinating thing when you see how, you know, people in America hear certain jokes about an issue. It's so revealing as to what they, you know, what, something about the Z-Guys, you know, and that's really what's compelling. And so all the, all the more substantive discourse kind of comes off of that. And you're coming to this with these comedians you interview in the book as an insider. You are a, or formerly a successful stand-up comedian. Now you're, you do all kinds of other things in addition to that, you know, you have the TV show on Showtime, the green room, you do that sort of stuff. But nonetheless, you're an insider with these comedians. You're not like some guy with your pad of paper and a pencil just picking their brains. Exactly. So, you know, if they talk about an experience they have, I have, I might have an analogous experience and then it becomes a completely different conversation, a deeper, richer conversation. Paul, did any of these interviews really stand out to you? In other words, did any of them have an impact on you personally? Yes, one conversation with Andy Barowitz is a particular favorite of mine. Because with Andy, I actually talked to him about a question that I deal with as a comedian who talks about issues where I get into the dialogue with him about how, you know, okay, so if we pick up topics that are already churning in the media that are already part of the discourse, is it not possible that we are just another aspect of the distractions? Like if the narrative is being created by media, whether it's, you know, any sort of conscious cabal or whether it's just the natural flow of things, there's so many distractions from really substantive important things. And if we only comment on things that are already churning, are we not playing into the hands of those same narratives? That comedians can be used by certain interests to keep people from really dealing with the serious issues. The whole idea being that if the discourse about anything becomes about Sarah Palin's haircut or whatever it is, and as comedians, we go there and we stay on that topic, are we not contributing to diversion from more substantive things going behind the conventional narratives that are out there already in news and culture? You know, shouldn't we be digging deeper than what's already churning? And, you know, that's a disturbing question for a lot of people. And that came out of my experiences as a comedian and somebody who does, you know, social criticism talking to somebody else who does that and go, well, this is an existential question that only we really can have. So that's the kind of stuff that we get into, you know, in and out, again, as they flow through conversations. You know, I had the conversation with Penn where he feels like a lot of satire or a lot of political commentary is distanced, that it's more intellectual than it is emotional, you know, have a conversation with Robert Klein where he's talking about crossing some lines and he uses an example. He used a Sam Kinnison piece. And then we have this argument amongst each other about, really, where are you crossing lines? It's a very different conversation among two comedians who do that. That's more than just an abstraction that now is experiential and personal and is revelatory about the way America hears this stuff and sees this stuff. So, yeah, it's very particular kinds of conversations with people who are speaking their minds. And it sounds like a number of these actually stuck with you. You know, after you have the conversation, you're still thinking about the conversation after, not just because you're writing the darn book on it, but in other words, these conversations impacted you. Yeah, as a matter of fact, after I did an interview with Mooraka, I got a series of emails where he's like, you know, you really, we talked about some things that really disturbed me. I can't stop thinking about this. I need to call you, we need to talk more about this. You know, because as I say, it was a real conversation among the working satirists, working, you know, iconoclasts, if you will, working subversive comics, you know, actually talking about these things on a practical level is for some pretty interesting stuff. I'd like to let our listeners know that you can get a copy of satiristas, comedians, contrarians, recon tours and vulgarians through our website forgoodreason.org. It's a great place to buy that book from. Right. Every purchase helps the James Randi Educational Foundation out just a little. So as you know, I'm a big fan and supporter of. Well, I appreciate that. Again, right on cue. I know. It's almost like I know what I'm doing. Paul, you deal with the issues we just talked about, you know, politics, the social issues, but you also a number of times throughout the book in your discussions with these great thinkers, these great comedians, you deal with like real meaning of life. You use the term existential, you know, these big issues. A number of conversations, something comes up with these folks that's kind of kind of nihilistic. Do you think that some of these comedians, these comedians as social critics that they get so mired in all the BS, all the rottenness of the world that they're criticizing day in, day out that they kind of turn to the dark side. They feel, you know, maybe a little hopeless, like life is ultimately meaningless and that all that's left for them to do is kind of poke fun at the absurd meaninglessness of it all. In other words, we've conceded that many of these people you treat in the book are atheists and skeptics. They don't derive comfort from supernatural beliefs. Well, do they find that life is meaningful at all? Interestingly, that's a really good question. Interestingly, it's a pretty, pretty, pretty elaborate mix. I mean, everybody has their own personal reaction to it, you know, people like Doug Stanhope end up totally nihilist, you know, just they just don't care. And, you know, Doug's attitude is, I just keep making fun of this stuff and rooting for the good guys, you know, but I really don't have a whole lot of hope that, you know, that we're going to win the penance. And George Carlin's discussion with you was veering a little in that direction. Yes. And what there is, of course, the flip side, there are quite a lot of people who are very, very hopeful, who feel like, you know, the fact that there are so many people out there talking about this stuff, the fact that there are people who are challenging it, the fact that those voices are getting louder and louder, that, you know, people like myself are doing books like this, while other people are making movies like this or whatever, you know, they feel very hopeful that the tide is changing, that people are beginning to wake up, that there's some sort of a, you know, shift happening for the better. And then there are people who just sort of invest in their families and their loved ones. And they just say, you know, if I can just make my life better on a day-to-day basis for all my friends and loved ones, and we all did that, well, then that spreads globally, you know, everybody's got a different end result of it all. Did you find yourself gravitating toward one or another of those life stances, those ways of kind of bracing yourself against the brute facticity that there ain't no such thing as the supernatural, there's only the natural, you know, God's not going to save us, a lot of these folks imagine. Well, you know, they have different approaches to dealing with that. Did you gravitate toward one or another? Well, I've been, for quite some time now, I've been very firmly comfortably sitting in the place where I'm very happy knowing that I might very well be a random accident and that when I'm gone, it's really not going to make any difference. And, you know, we're nothing but dandruff to the earth. We'll be shaken off long before any of this ever matters to anybody else. And I find that actually liberating takes a lot of pressure off. I can start doing stuff that I care about and that's fun for me and not give a crap about anybody else. So I happen to find that a very liberating place. I've been comfortable there for a long time because it makes it a lot easier for me to do nutty stuff. It's kind of liberating, in other words, yeah. Completely. Completely. It takes all the pressure away. Some people have problems with that notion because it makes it feel like their lives are pointless. I'm like, my life is pointless. Awesome. I don't have to be anywhere at any particular time. I'm so happy. I love it. So maybe it's ultimately pointless, but you're garnering a lot of kind of temporary meaning in the here and now. Which is all there is. Right. Okay. Right. Actually, it kind of recapitulates something that George Carlin said. Just basically that none of this really matters. So everybody, that's another thing that almost everybody has in common is everybody really says that they do what they do for them. They're happy if it makes a beneficial difference in somebody's life, but ultimately they do it for them. They're doing it kind of as their lives, as works of art, as opposed to preaching or trying to change the world. That's all secondary. Right. Right. With the attitude of, well, if I don't have an impact on society, or I don't alter this election, I haven't succeeded. That's not their agenda. Their agenda is to just get out of their systems, what they need to get out of their systems, what they find funny, how they want to be, express themselves as examples of a way to look at the world. And if it does some good, great, if not, who cares? Kind of on that point, Paul, I come personally from a background in magic ledger domain. One of the little debates in magic circles all the time, maybe it seems trivial, uninteresting to people who aren't in the magic subculture or whatever, but it's a debate on whether or not magic should ever have a message or should it merely strive to be artistic and beautiful. Question kind of about that when it comes to these great comedic thinkers. Do you think that something's lost if a comedian has a pet issue or is always on a soap box, tries to preach a message through his comedy, even if that's not his or her primary goal? But the comedian who's always berating his audience for how stupid and gullible they are for believing all the nonsense they believe, is that going to be inherently less funny, as opposed to just another interesting thing I notice about society, the person commenting in some uncontroversial way on the little funny aspects of life? I don't know. Clearly there are people who succeed at it. I watched Tim Minchin's work and he did a super bail to make me laugh, think and just feel like, yeah, somebody's out there just hammering this and look, people are enjoying every second of it. So I think that's really what makes a great artist. Some people are able to overcome all the obstacles to just dwelling on the things that are their particular pet peeves. Some people aren't. Some people have to go, wow, well, I've tapped this out and I can't quite do another five minutes on this like I'd like to. So I got to move on. But along comes Tim Minchin, he's got no problem with it. It really does become a very personal and individual thing. You framed the whole book in a really interesting way. In a way that I have never thought about comedians before, you kind of argue that they are the direct spiritual descendants of like the founding fathers of America, that these performers are revolutionary in some of the same ways. Absolutely. I believe that's the truth. I believe anybody that questions authority, anybody that confronts powers that be, anybody who tries to speak truth to power, anybody who champions the voiceless or points to injustices, it's absolutely the same DNA as political revolutionaries. There's no question about it. The only difference is their methods and their means. Do you think that these satiristas, as you call them, George Carland or Colin Quinn, Randy Newman, Jay Leno's even in this book, maybe I shouldn't sound surprised. I love Jay Leno. But the point is, you have really a who's who of the leading thinkers in comedy. Can I just stop you for a second? I want to refer to the Jay Leno thing. Jay Leno is notorious for not taking a stand and he's often criticized by many of the people in the book who do take stands and are very, very pointed. He's often criticized for not taking and although I saw him on Tavis Smiley once, refer to himself as a humanist for what it's worth. Oh, he absolutely is a humanist. There's no question about that in his personal life. First of all, he gives away millions anonymously every year to very humanistic charities and important and meaningful charities. He supports his wife's charity, the name of which escapes him at the moment, but it's all about women's rights in the third world, particularly they've been focusing very heavily on protection of women in Afghanistan. Jay is a beautiful, lovely guy. He's very compassionate, very caring. But you don't think of him as a social critic, is what you're saying? He has chosen in his comedy and on the Tonight Show to not take a stand and be a social critic. And so his voice in the context of all the others is very interesting and compelling. So here's a guy with the largest platform of anybody in television right now doing comedy. He does a nightly monologue about the day's events. Why does a guy like that choose not to take a stand and deal with polarizing issues? I mean, it's an important voice in this context. And you can agree or disagree, but I bet you when you read his piece, you pulled back a little bit and thought, hmm, well, I kind of get where he's coming from. Well, and that's why I corrected my kind of automatic, you even include Jay Leno. Of course, he belongs in there, not only as a contrast, but because he has a nuanced view. My question was, if you're framing these comedians as revolutionary, do you think they, in a self-aware or self-conscious sense, see themselves in the same way? Almost to a person, they deny such. Almost to a person, there are few exceptions to the rule. And there are some who don't believe that they are, but would certainly love it if they were. But almost to a person, no. Because see, this is another interesting aspect of talking to comedians about all these bigger issues is that the nature of doing comedy is one of deflating pretension. So any sense of self-importance is almost anathema to them. Yeah. But on that point, I found it almost annoying to talk to some of these celebrity comedians, they have a kind of false humility. Oh, I don't want to be recognized for all the important work I'm doing. And it's because of this dynamic that you're just mentioning. Here they go day in, day out puncturing the pretensions of people in society, and they certainly don't want to be one of those people in society who are pretentious. Right. And I believe that's genuine. I really do. I mean, I don't believe that any of these people have gotten into comedy unless that was organic for them. But you will find people like Bill Maher and George Carlin, Steven Colbert, you will find them actually say things in the book like, well, I hate to say this, but I do have enough anecdotal evidence to say that, you know what, it may actually be changing some people's minds or perspectives or whatever. But then again, as Bill Maher says, whether or not that leaps to a change in public policy, that's a whole other question. But he says, I get heartfelt letters all the time from people going, wow, you really turned me around on this and things like that. So I think that it's not necessarily false humility. I think that it's an authentic humility, but I think that they're very aware of the fact that it does make a difference. They just can't state it as a motivation. Right. And they don't want to kind of have the chutzpah to claim it for themselves. They don't want to say, look what I did. And I think also that it, that becomes, that sort of defeats the purpose, you know, like Janine Garofalo experienced that. She experienced putting herself out there in a more important context than just somebody who's trying to do comedy about these things, putting herself in the arena of punditry, putting herself in the arena of discourse in the sort of news and commentary arena as opposed to just stand up. And, you know, she paid a price for that and it affected her efficacy in making anybody hear more substantively what it is that she cares about. So it actually becomes self-defeating to consider what you're saying important because it's very important, I think, for a lot of people to hear things in a way that is non-threatening. And I think that's part of how we are manipulated. We are seduced into mindsets and beliefs and narratives. They're very comfortable and easy for us. They don't challenge us. They don't threaten us. And before we know it, we're actually embracing some like adverse ideology that we're not even aware of. And likewise, the flip side of that is in comedy, we can seduce people into perceiving things that they would normally not be interested in even looking at. Claiming some importance, claiming some significance in that kind of work somehow might undermine that. So you're talking about undermining your in quotes effectiveness as a comedian slash social critic. So not just, you know, the guy telling the one-liners, you know, but person on stage commenting on the problems in society, how they don't add up, how they get under your skin. Isn't it odd or funny or weird that people believe all this nonsense? And if you go around saying, I'm preaching this or I'm trying to change your mind, that actually undermines the effectiveness of it. I'm reminded that, well, you mentioned Janine Garofalo and sometimes she was dismissed by her cultural competitors as, oh my gosh, are we going to listen to her? She's just a comedian. Well, you get the same thing with, say, James Randy, who, you know, for decades has spoken out against an income poopery in society. And often, you know, a psychic or someone would say, you know, I'm not going to pay attention to a man whose middle name is the amazing. Even though what he's saying is so important and demands people's attention. Right. Yes. Yes. I think there's a lot of the same aspect to that. It goes in both directions too. Like, Janine feels very strongly that she was set up as a straw man. So that was specifically, you know, when she'd be talking to somebody from some government office. And so here's the opposing view of stand-up comic, you know. So she felt like she was brought into these situations very often as a straw man. But the other side of that coin is that if she takes herself too seriously, then her comedy crowd gets lost as well. And you end up with nothing. So I believe that a lot of the reason that comedians don't want to, you know, take on that responsibility of being or claiming any importance, I think, is just really about trying to remain. Well, you want to remain a comedian. You want to remain a comedian trying to remain, you know, it's very important for people to not feel like they're being taught, preached to, or treated like they are not smart enough to make up their own decisions. So when comedians just sort of present things as the questions they have or present things as the things that are, you know, anger them, they get under the skin and irritate them and all that sort of stuff, well, we've all experienced that anger and irritation and frustration and confusion. We've all experienced that so we can relate to that. And then you can take them any place you want to. But if you set yourself up as the authority figure, then you're in conflict. So on that point, on CNN all the time, and I maybe I shouldn't admit my political biases by admitting I watch CNN a lot, whatever. But who do you see on CNN all the time? Just yesterday or the day before, Bill Maher was a guest on Wolf Blitzer's show commenting on the oil spill and Obama, I mean, asking basically being given a list of questions about problems in society and what's his take. Penn Gillette is on Larry King Live all the time. I love that I, you know, I could be traveling be anywhere and and turn on the TV and Penn Gillette is, you know, speaking his kind of skeptical stance. I love that. But they're not being invited on. At least I don't notice that they're being invited on as, oh, here's funny man for his funny take. Instead, here's this, sure he's a comedian or sure he's a magician, but they have interesting, compelling, important things to say about these issues. Right. Well, Penn and Bill Maher, those examples that you gave a handful of other people, they're particular. They're very particular in that they have the ability and the desire and inclination to succeed at transitioning and creating different identities for them in different contexts like that. Lewis Black, you'll notice, is never on those shows, and that's by conscious choice because he feels like if I want to do a joke in that context and it's going to be taken at face value, I can't, he goes, this is a set of skills that I haven't had since high school when I tried to do funny things without getting called out on it. You know, black marks on it. You know, he goes, I don't have that skill anymore. He goes, because I'm used to just saying what I want to say. I don't need to be taken at face value by people who aren't about the joke. Right. So he's chosen not to do that. Jeanine had a horrible experience doing that. You know, it's a very particular and rarefied skill, and Bill Maher has honed it. But if you know what's interesting about Bill Maher and Stephen Colbert, they have actually gone inside. They're no longer on the outside looking in. They are, but not only, you know, that in fact, what they've done is they've become part of the discourse. It now becomes a talking point if somebody refuses to go on one of their shows. I see. So they're now on the inside. So their barbs have to be, you know, in a case like that, it's very often people will soften their barbs because it gets a little lungy. But they're still as strong and focused on all of that. They have accomplished doing something that's very, very difficult to do, and very few people succeed at it. Paul, to finish up then, your book, it's these great satirists, these great comedians. You mentioned how revolutionary they are. Explore for me how it is that these folks are so unique. You know, people wring their hands, you look at American history. What about the founders made that generation so unique, so excellent? Well, the people you have in this book are unique when compared to the everyday Joe, right? Most folks do not see through all the nonsense and problems in our society. But these people call it out night after night on stage or when they're writing comedy. It's obvious that they are special in that way. So explain to me what makes them different. Was it their skepticism, their kind of critical thinking that come first or their intelligence that led them to be a kind of social critic comedian that kind of resulted in their skepticism of the nonsense? I don't know that I can answer that. I think we're talking a number of different chicken and egg questions there. But I will tell you that there is a, it does bring up a bigger point, which is something that I'm glad you brought up. I want to say this about the book that to me, the book satirists really is a self-help book. I think that when you read that book, it's empowering. I think it's liberating, and I think that it will affect people in very personal ways. And how that relates to your question is that I think everybody is unique, ultimately. Everybody on this earth is unique. But we fall into patterns, we fall into the roles, we fall into, you know, we're all good little soldiers, oh, you don't say that, you don't disrupt this, you don't do that, etc., etc., you know how life is, all the things that put you into modes of conventional thinking and just accepting things as they're told to you by quote-unquote authorities, what have you. What all the people in this book have done is not listen to anybody else. They've all found their own moral barometers, they've all done their own personal work on their own issues, they've all done their own introspection, they've all looked at what they believe and don't believe, and they don't listen to anybody else. And they don't shut up just because they're told to. And that's been a characteristic for all of them their whole lives long. We all feel every one of us feels like we've been an outsider our whole lives. And what these guys do, these guys and women, what they do is they embrace that rather than have that be the thing that makes them miserable. They take all the things that for most other people are detriments in life, in getting along in life, you know, and they turn it on their heads and it becomes their asset, it becomes their currency, they get to call their own shop, they take everything about them. It's odd, weird, or different. I put it on top and they celebrate it. And in that way, I think that this is a very, very empowering read. Yeah, I could not agree more loved the book. You know, I read all kinds of books kind of by job description or lifestyle commitment, whatever. Well, this is the book, the next book I'll be giving is a gift to a number of folks. I can't wait to get my parents take on it, for instance. So that is the greatest compliment I could have gotten. Yeah, Paul, I really appreciated having you on the show. And what a fun discussion. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me and really, really talking about the book in this kind of depth because usually this only happens between me and the co author, Dan Dion. I want to tell you about audible.com, a sponsor of our show today. Audible is the internet's leading provider of spoken audio entertainment, providing digital versions of literally tens of thousands of audiobooks for download to your computer, to your iPod, your other MP3 player. I really love audio books. I've been a member of audible since August of 2002. I've really enjoyed their selection, the convenience of getting all my books through them. With audible, you can listen to these books whenever, wherever you want, just like when you're listening to for good reason. They have over 60,000 titles to choose from over 1000 science and technology over 1100 science fiction and fantasy titles with more being added all the time. Every genre Audible hasn't covered. Now, if you sign up today, you'll get a free audiobook download. Maybe you'll choose a bestselling science title or one of the books by Michael Shermer or Carl Sagan that they have available on their site. You can sign up today and get your free audiobook download by going to audiblepodcast.com. Again, if you sign up today, you'll get a free audiobook download that's at audiblepodcast.com. And now the honest liar is flattered to have received an exclusive invitation to be included in a prestigious directory. Here's Jamie in Swiss. I feel special. Yep. I feel special because just this week, I received a personal facts from none other than Mark Anthony McGinnis, the chief operations officer of presidential who's who marks letter to me begins. Dear company owner. It's my pleasure to inform you that on April 19 2010, your information was reviewed and accepted for inclusion in the 2011 edition. Presidential who's who each year recognizes and selects key executives, professionals and organizations in all disciplines and industries for outstanding business and professional achievements. Those who have reached a distinguished level of success in their chosen profession share this recognition. Please take a moment to complete the invitation form below. We would also ask that you write clearly as it will be reviewed by our editorial department as a reminder, presidential who's who is pleased to inform you that there are no fees or dues to be included in the publication on behalf of the CEO and our esteemed staff. We wish you continued success. Sincerely Mark Anthony McGinnis, chief operations officer, presidential who's who. And then there's a phone number and then it says, please fax this form back to a free 866 number by May 21st. What a guy. Now I admit when I first opened this, I wondered if maybe this was related to the fact that I was just written up in the February issue of current biography magazine, a legitimate resource for researchers, educators and librarians. I wondered about this possible connection for approximately one nanosecond or maybe two, because in fact, this fax is spam at best and scam at worst. All the hallmarks of a scam are right there in the letter, including it's a fax. It's not addressed to me personally. I did like the one personal touch though. He called me dear. It comes from a chief operations officer and his esteemed staff, esteemed by who. Somehow I don't think of a chief operations officer as being the guy who's responsible for mailing invitations. In fact, there is zero information specific to me in the letter. If my materials have been reviewed and accepted, well, what materials were they and where are any of the details from those materials? There's a request that the form be faxed back by a date only 11 days after the receipt of the fax. So there's a highly pressured response time. And if you look a little closer, you might notice that the return fax number and the return deadline date are both filled in with a different and larger font than the rest of the entire letter. That fax number probably changes a lot. The number probably changes a lot because this is fax spam and you can find online records of repeated FCC complaints for spam against some of the phone numbers on the letter. These are mass spam faxes faxed in huge quantities by automated systems using fax numbers purchased from lists and make no mistake after they get a response from you, they'll sell your information to others as part of their own profitable list selling business. No doubt. If you check the business number provided at the bottom of the letter, it shows as registered to a name similar to but not quite identical to the supposed letter signer somewhere in upstate New York and it appears to be a cell phone. Big business is presidential who's who thing is or maybe the COO just wanted to give me his personal cell phone in case I had any questions for him. It's not hard to discover further reasons for suspicion. Google presidentials who's who or the name of this Chief Operations Officer who signed the invitations and you'll find countless references that explain what these people are after and how they operate. Indeed, the first six or seven pages returned on such a search are comprised almost entirely of scam protection information. And that is a very good thing. But if there are no fees or dues, what are they after? Take a guess. I'll give you a moment. And if you guessed your money, no more calls please. We have a winner, probably a lot of winners. The money is not dues. It's not a fee for filing your information. You see, they don't have any information on you yet. They just have your fax number until that is you send them your info. That's when they call you up and try to sell you the directory. Aye, laddie, there's the rub, the directory. Because of course, if you're going to be included in this directory, you want to have a copy, right? And presidential who's who is happy to sell you one. And not only will they sell you the directory, but they will also sell you a certificate and a plaque to hang on your wall and show off to your friends, colleagues, and impress your dog. How much? Well, there are multiple references online that explain that in the opening salvo from the con artist, sorry, sales representative who calls you after you faxed from your phone number, you can buy the book, the plaque and the certificate for one low price of only sit down, folks, $894.45 or as my grandmother used to say, such a deal. But wait, there's more or I should say less because the moment you decline, the offer goes to $684.75. How did they come up with these numbers? Turn that chance of a lifetime down though, and you're offered the book and the plaque for only $424.85. I guess the certificate alone must have been worth about $470. Talk about not being worth the paper it's printed on. And oh yeah, tell the salesman it's still too rich for your blood, and you can get the book alone for just $150 from 900 to 150 in the span of just a few moments. But maybe you want to just buy the book from a bookstore or consult it at your local library. Well, that's not gonna happen. The book is only mailed to those who pay for it. That's it. How's that for some circulation? But let's not keep picking on poor little presidential who's who. They are in fact far from alone in this field of endeavor, as you can find similar garbage being hustled in the name of Madison Who's Who, Emerald Who's Who, Global Who's Who, Heritage Who's Who, Princeton Who's Who, Strathmore Who's Who. The list goes on, not just in the U.S., but in Great Britain, Australia, and beyond. Consult a delightful website I found called Dear Spam Diary at www.spamdiary.com, and you'll find a list of similar operations like the World Business Directory, Who's Who among Executives and Professionals, USA Honor Society, America's Registry, and so on. Now, unfortunately, countless people are taken in by these hustlers, and while there's no way to really know the exact numbers, clearly these operators would not survive and continue if they weren't effective. And the point, if you want to protect yourself, is not to try to memorize a list of names of useless publications and empty organizations, but rather to understand why it works. What all these offers have in common is that they are, in the vernacular of the scam or bunco specialist, vanity scams. They play to the target's vanity, not to his stupidity, but to his emotions. If he is to be a victim, he will be someone who is responding to the flattery of the moment. Humans are storytelling animals, and we understand the world by organizing information and experience into stories. And some of the most important stories in our lives are the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. And for some, that plaque, that directory, will help to emotionally fuel and reinforce a very important story to self. Is there such a thing as a legitimate who's-who directory? Well, it would have to have higher requirements to determine your eligibility beyond your mere willingness to buy the book, wouldn't it? So let the buyer beware, and remember that the package and the victims come in a whole catalog of variations. In fact, one of the biggest such categories is vanity publishing that targets amateur writers and poets. Google poetry.com plus scam, and you'll get 191,000 hits. You could scroll your name in a couple of lines of random dribble on the back of a napkin, mail it into one of these supposed poetry contests, and you will probably be notified that you are now a contender for an award or prize. Your work will be included in the publication, and to enter the contest or buy the book and get the certificate, you only need to pay, well, you get the idea. What's the appeal? Is it greed? Not really. It's vanity. It's need. It's the scammer's stock and trade. When it comes to creating appealing stories that connect with people's fundamental needs and emotions, you always have to credit the con man. There once was a guide from who's who that claimed we really want you. They appealed to my vanity, but I held on to my sanity, though I wonder if who's who's fooling you. This is Jamie Ian-Swiss, and I am the honest liar. Thank you for listening to this episode of For Good Reason. To get involved with an online conversation about today's show, join the discussion at ForGoodReason.org. Views expressed on For Good Reason aren't necessarily the views of the James Randi Educational Foundation. Questions and comments on today's show can be sent to info at ForGoodReason.org. For Good Reason is produced by Thomas Donnelly and recorded from St. Louis, Missouri. Our music is composed for us by Emmy Award-nominated Gary Stockdale. Contributors to today's show included Jamie Ian-Swiss and Christina Stevens. I'm your host, DJ Glovey.