 and I wasn't happy that he wasn't gonna pay me. Hey, he had the attitude that nobody could hurt him. I think he was wrong. Today we're gonna talk about Richard Kuklinski. He was a hit man for the mob and went to prison for the rest of his life. Greg wants to tell us about the videos we're gonna watch. Yes, so HBO recorded two sets of videos about Kuklinski, one in 92, one in 2003. This is the 92, the less sophisticated Kuklinski. He was called the Ice Man because he put bodies in freezers and in one case he left one in there too long before he dropped it and that's how he was discovered. We'll leave it at that. All right, please subscribe and hit the like button and hit the little bell down there so you know we have a new episode come out. All right, you guys ready? Yeah, let's do it. Here we go. How many people have you killed? All right, approximate guess. Approximately, we'll go with more than 100. All right, Greg, what do you got? He starts off with this let's see. He twists his forehead. He does this little wrenching his mouth thing which I think we're gonna see as an adapter as he moves through this whole thing. By adapter I mean a way to release nervous energy to make the uncomfortable comfortable. He exposes his lower teeth a little, looks down right. He's got this request for approval as he raises his head and then he goes approximately, we would go at more than 100. I don't believe he killed 100 people. Clearly they got to kill people. And after I watched this, I wouldn't start digging to try to figure out where the other people believe he killed over 100. And the FBI says, probably not. Probably 15, they'll give him 15. And it depends on who you read. But he then blinks and makes eye contact to see the approval, then he drops down to the right and we see him kind of going back to an emotional state. What I think we're seeing here is a guy looking for some approval. And I think what we're having here is the beginning of a narcissistic personality type, getting a mirror. Once people start admiring him, if you go watch the second 2003 video, he's a very different person. So I think what we're seeing here is him working to see what he can get. As a matter of fact, when he says that he hundreds, I guess he does a little bit of a lip retraction or a little bit of a purse lip, sorry, for disapproval. I don't think he's killed hundreds, but that's what I think. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, one thing Scott and I have discussed in another video is this expretting is what Scott named it. So over time, if we do a lot of facial expressions throughout our lives, somebody's happy all the time, you can see that kind of etched in the wrinkles of their face after the age of like 30, 25, sometimes. If they're sad all the time, you can see that kind of etching itself into the person's face over time. This guy has no wrinkles in his forehead. This guy until he was probably captured has not sought approval from anybody. And he hasn't been very communicative with his face, most likely because those emotions are natural for him. And we're gonna talk about the psychopath's emotions in a minute. But I think this is, except for the number here, we see some recall at eight o'clock and we see his eyes move over in that direction. So we're getting a baseline, but it might be a baseline for deception. So that's where we have to keep asking questions here. His eye contact stays. And I think that's also Greg said it was for approval. I totally agree. But I think there's a second layer to this, that he enjoyed the emotional reaction of the interviewer to what he was saying, how many people he killed. And I think this also probably speaks to the other part of his life where he probably enjoyed the emotional reaction of victims to his killing. And I think this whole concept of psychopathy, it's not in the DSM, but it can be traced back to this guy named Penel. And this was in 1792 and he labeled this psychopath condition. It was originally called madness without delirium. And I'm gonna give you one tip on how to spot a psychopath in conversation. This is not a way to do it instantly, but these need to stack up. So I'll give you one for every video. Psychopaths are much more likely to focus their language on food, sex and money. And just think of the bottom few rows of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That's where most conversations will be focused and that's also the questions they will ask you as a person. So that is red flag number one. We'll do number two in the next video. Scott, what do you got? All right. Well, I think this is gonna be a great example of how the differences in a sociopath or what people term as sociopath, which is what I... So there are no sociopaths just so you know, sociopaths are just hardcore criminals. They go to prison early, they kill people or they get killed early. A lot of times it's stabbing, those types of things really grows really violent people. But their brain is intact. Their amygdala are formed as they are supposed to form, but they act differently because they weren't brought up with love and attention and the emotions weren't nurtured as a child when they grew up. So we're gonna see the difference in one of those and a true psychopath in these videos as we go along. So after the question, there's this long pause and he does this really, really odd mouth gesture. Well, he seemed to do this a couple of times where he kind of pulls on his mouth. And I think that is an adapter. And I think, and these things that we're seeing in this video, and as short as it was, let you know there's an issue there. And there's an issue with the answer. And he's trying to structure his answer. He's trying, I believe, I'm under the impression he's deciding what he's gonna say. And he's come to a little juncture here where he's gonna say, or a juncture where he's gonna say, I did this or I did this. And so he makes his decision and he goes with it. And whether all these things are true or not, I agree with you guys so far. We have to pay attention to the deceptive cues we see here. And we're, all these things tell us there that he has issues with what he's saying. That not because he doesn't wanna say it because he'll get in trouble, because he's already in trouble. He's gone away forever. They already said, dude, you're never getting out. We don't care what happens, you're in here forever. That's it, you're done. So moving forward, we'll pick apart those things that differentiate a true psychopath, the clinical psychopath, who's amygdala, the part of the limbic system that don't function properly, that let you have empathy and sympathy for other people and be able to feel for other people, whether those are functioning properly or not due to a clinical part. Is the person born that way or were they raised that way, nature versus nurture? That's the road I'll be going down on this. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so first off, just the rhythm of him. He's not in a hurry, is he? He's super relaxed, not in a hurry at all. So let's just keep that in our mind. That's his general kind of demeanor. The first thing that hit me about this and it's about how we decide who we are or who we're gonna project. And immediately I went, well, hang on, this is Marlon Brando, this is Kurtz, this is the godfather. And almost down to a T, almost down to a T. And so I instantly go, what if, because I don't know, but what if this is a character that he's playing? What if he's worked out that if he comes across as Marlon Brando in The Godfather or Kurtz in Apocalypse Now, that that's quite scary for people because they've already got this idea lodged in their head. So look, that's either true or false or something in between. But I'm gonna follow this trail of, is he performing, as Chase might say, a mask for us and why that particular mask? And if so, why? Why is he performing this particular caricature or almost superhero, this almost superman? You know, rather like, and by the way, I don't know this, I don't know what this guy has done. I only picked up, I've never seen him before. It was only like, he's killed a hundred people. So he says, I don't know, I'm with you, Greg. I was like, yeah, I think you're being the superhero right now. That's the superhero version of, that's the Marlon Brando version of what you did. So I'm a little suspicious of this guy right up front. Seems very casual, almost even apathetic to a caricatured point, point. Yeah, there you go. How many people have you killed? I've had approximate guess. Approximately we'll go with more than a hundred. All right. How do you feel about killing him? It doesn't bother me, doesn't bother me at all. I don't have a feeling one way or the other. I think if I had a choice, I wouldn't. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I don't, I don't, he says, very clear. I don't, but then he adapts in the chair. It's like, hmm, possibly not then. Possibly you do, or something else. Like, I don't know, but possibly not I don't. I don't buy, I don't because of the adaption, that the movement in that chair. I don't buy it at all. He protests too much. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me at all. Hey, you could, just the first time would have been fine, my friend. You didn't need to say it again and the at all. Like, why do you want to let me know that it doesn't bother you? Lot of vocal clicks along the way as well. And we're going to see those build up over the time. If I had a choice, I wouldn't. So he's now putting forward the idea of it's not him. It's the pressures around him. He is a product of society. So you could go, okay. So if there's, if he's breaking rules, you know, in a bad, bad way, that would fit in with the sociopathic model. He just doesn't, his actions don't fit in with what society thinks at the time is the right way to behave. Obviously this is performative in it and it performs over time. Different societies, different times think different behaviors are good and bad. And, but in this particular time, it's generally bad, you know, to kill, you know, more than zero people. You know, so, so ultimately he's, he's go, he's going, I'm a product of circumstance. So here's what I do. I go, I don't, I don't buy what you're saying because too much happened there in terms of adapting and vocal clicks and let's blame society. So if you had a choice, if I had a choice, I wouldn't. So what drives you, what is driving this? What bothers you? What are you saying about the world outside that bothers you enough that you had to do this? That's just the way my inquiry goes. I now start to want to know from him, what is it about this outside world that so bothers you that you had to do this? There, Greg, what have you got? Yeah, I'm with you. He says way too much. Well, no, it doesn't bother me, but it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, it doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me at all. It sounds that silly to me when I hear it. He, at how do you feel, his chin goes down, which we typically associate with shame or guilt or something to protect the throat. And that's in our DNA. He licks his lips, that's a tongue jut or it's grooming or it's whatever you want to call it. But he licks his lips. If you ask me about something I really don't care about, I'm gonna say don't care. My shoulders are probably gonna rise. My body language is gonna illustrate what I'm saying. His doesn't. His posture changes entirely. He crosses his legs. His, he breaks eye contact. His breathing changes. And then he says, I don't. His posture changes again. That's when he crosses his legs. His blink rate increases and his eyes drop down into his right, which I, and I'll always say, this is as close as I get to an absolute associate with internal or with emotional thinking, emotional thought. If I don't care, I'm certainly not going to motion. I'd be like, I don't care. And then he does this taffy pull and a request for approval at the same time as he says, it doesn't bother me at all. Then he goes on and on about how much it doesn't bother him. And he says, if I had a choice and his lips retract back into his mouth, he's asking for approval there. For me, yeah, is he a bad guy? Did he kill some people? Yeah, does that mean that he's the guy who killed 100 people and he's the most prolific hit man in history? Yeah, maybe not. But if you're already in jail and you want to be people to be afraid of you or you want notoriety so that the next time they talk to you, they pay your family or something, of course that's a great option. If I kill 15, why not 100? If it bothered me, why wouldn't I say it didn't? Because I got nothing to gain, nothing to lose. That's always the point that nobody negotiates from a position of weakness. And what he's doing is creating this persona, this Iceman persona, so that he has something to sell. Scott, what do you got? All right, yeah, I agree with you completely. After that question, like you were saying, he adjusts in his seat and then from discomfort. And this shows, everything we're seeing in this one shows there's psychological discomfort here. He adjusts in his seat, he moves back, takes a deep breath, all these things. And he braces himself. These are red flags for emotional and psychological discomfort here. Psychopaths don't get emotional because they can't. There's no way for them to become emotional. Then he says, I don't have a feeling one way or the other when you ask him about murdering. He moves to one side and then back to the other. And he's trying to be tough and stoic at all at the same time during this. All these things show us that he's dealing with an emotion in there. And he says, if I had a choice, I wouldn't. And there's the truth because it bothers him. He wouldn't want to want to do it. But he did have a choice, but he didn't want to do it. You know, he didn't like doing it. He's not going to say that. Obviously he doesn't ever say that because it comes on like, oh, it doesn't bother him because it's supposed to be scary and stuff. But he's dealing with emotions here. We're seeing psychological discomfort from the emotions he's feeling. That's what I'm getting. So again, we're going down that road. Is he a nature versus nurture psychopath or sociopath or what everybody calls a sociopath? That's the road I'm going down still. Chase, what do you got? I got myself early in that time. I was trying to look down to the other side because when I really look at you, it looks like I'm looking the wrong way. So I was looking down here. I didn't get to watch your face. I was just trying to look like I was into it. That's why I'm going, damn it. All right, let's do it again. We're going to save on that. All right. His clinical diagnosis is a malignant narcissistic sociopath and psychopaths are nature and nurture. So we can have a genetic predisposition to psychopathy with a horrible childhood or trauma that makes those genes express themselves. But Scott, I do disagree that I think psychopaths absolutely can feel emotion, but it's more muted than most of us. But that's my opinion. Dude, what are you saying? That's what I learned in college. And I did a little research here before we got on the video. But I think all that we're seeing here is, we're seeing deception. We're seeing him build a character. He loves the name that he was given. And I think that, yeah, just like Mark, you said it, I think maybe there's some kind of benefit to him doing this or whatever it is. There's some genuine I recall because I think he's actually thinking of the truth. And then he goes down to exactly what Greg said into that internal dialogue, that emotional recall. He's got that discomfort there with his body because he is crafting a story. And I think some of the lip compression we're seeing here, we see the lips squeezed together that typically means that a person's withholding information or opinions. And we see that right at a key point in here. And I'll let you take a look at when you see the lip compression. But I think the eyebrow rays that we see in this one is uncommon for him. Just looking at his head, you can see it's uncommon. And I think it's seeking approval. And I also think he's looking for the emotional reaction of the interviewer here. It's a red flag number two to look for for psychopaths, whether or not we're dealing with one of this video. They're very unlikely to drive any discussion into things like family, religion, or spirituality in a conversation if they're hiding their psychopathy or if they're hiding their illness. And these are also on the scale for sociopathic individuals. That's all I got. How do you feel about killing? I don't. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't bother me at all. I don't have a feeling one way or the other. I think if I had a choice, I wouldn't. All right. He was a man. He was begging and pleading and praying, I guess. And he was pleased God and all over the place. So I told him he could have a half hour to pray to God. And if God could come down and change the circumstances, he'd have that time. But God never showed up. And he never changed the circumstances. And that was that. It wasn't too nice. That's one thing I shouldn't have done that one. I shouldn't have done it that way. See, that's the one where when I first watched these, I was like, ah, something's up here. This is years ago when I saw that one. All right, Greg, what do you got? So in this case, there are a couple of things I want you to watch. And I'll show you why later, but that drawing the side of his mouth is an adapter. Like Scott, you said the same thing in the very first video. In the beginning, I was like, is he being sarcastic? What is he doing? But you'll see it. As we get later in the videos, I'll go point out why we know for sure that's an adapter. His blink rate goes up when he's telling this story. This story I actually believe. He's got emotional eye-accessing. He's milling his jaw. You can see the muscles in his jaw milling. He is editing his thoughts as he goes through on what exactly to say. He's also managing his images as he goes through this. He's got this image he needs to keep up. His breathing changes. He makes no eye contact. He does a tongue jut at the right time for this to be a distasteful thing for him. And then when he does that thing on the side, that's controlling emotion or leaking nervous energy. In this case, I think it's emotion. I think he's fishing for approval from this guy for the bad guy that he is in a kind of a twisted ways. Chase, to your point earlier, when we say a person has this facade and this deception, it can be because they're trying to get more admiration for the bad guy that they are. In this case, I think that's the case. That's why I think he's exaggerated the number of people he's killed and that kind of thing. And it appears that many people believe that. Mark, what do you got? I've got somebody who looks like a bad knitwear catalog model, as far as I'm concerned. There he is in this, I think eighties, maybe colorful kind of piece of knitwear, looking off into the sunset. I expect him at some point to like point his watch as well at the same time. I guess he probably doesn't have a watch, but pointed his watch. It's such an act that's going on here, from my point of view. There's, right up the front, there's so many different thoughts running through his head. If God could have come down and changed the circumstance. So now we've got God involved, okay? So if God could have come down and changed the circumstances, we see some vocal clicks around there. So I kind of get the sense he's maybe creating this really good look into the sunset story, is if God could have come down and changed circumstances, things could have changed, and he gave God a chance, and God failed. And so now somebody has to die. This is a very old story, and an incredibly dramatic story, which is why I think this dramatic undercurrent of music goes so well in this look into the distance, is this is the test of God. This is when you say to God, hey, I don't think you're all that. I don't think you're gonna come and do anything. Come and have a go, God doesn't show up. And actually you're a little bit disappointed in God when that doesn't happen. And so what happens is you wreak your revenge on the world because God has failed you, okay? So he's created a very grand story around here, around the testing of the gods. It's very kind of, certainly biblical, and it's very Greek as well. And so we get this lovely Greek statue in terrible late years, knitwear. Speaking of great knitwear, Chase, what do you have? I've got some knitwear. Yeah. But I think we're actually seeing, this is my opinion, I think we're seeing genuine regret here for a part of this. I'm gonna talk about that in a second. This is the only time we're gonna see him displaying an eye flutter, which is most of the time we see that, that suggests a person is protecting themselves from something they're saying or something that they're thinking about. Think about when your dog does it. Like if you get close to your dog's face, you start talking to your dog in a little bit louder tone of voice, you'll see their eyes start fluttering. There's some protection going on. And we're starting to see a pattern that he's making eye contact at the moments that the interviewer's reaction would make him feel powerful. And those are the moments that we're seeing a lot of eye contact, what Greg was just talking about a second ago. And he avoids any eye contact during vulnerable or sincere moments. So we're seeing him look away during all that. And Richard was raised as a Catholic and he had a seriously rough childhood. And I'm willing to bet that he probably prayed the same way as a child for God to show up and change circumstances for him growing up. He was beaten, his siblings were beaten by mom and dad both. And we're talking about that in the next video. Let me give you a red flag, whatever number this is. Three. Psychopaths are a lot more likely than normal people to talk about unachievable goals almost in a way that makes you think they're already about to achieve them or have achieved them already. Where normal people are more likely to talk about plans and hopeful goals and milestones that they need to hit or want to hit. So that's an interesting thing that we can see in usually a first conversation with a person. That's all I got, Scott. All right. Yeah, you're right. One of his brothers beat one of his brothers to death when he was little. And then when he took him to the hospital, he said he fell down the stairs. That's where he told the people to hospital. So yeah, really bad guy, really bad guy at home. Even though he comes on like he was a great guy at home. Now, I agree with the chase. There is a genetic disposition, we'll say, that when you show up in the world that you're fearless, that you're very low amount of fear. And thank God a lot of those people go on to be police officers and they go to the military and they become fighter pilots and test pilots and astronauts, those types of people. Their degree of fear they have is extremely low. And when you group that together with somebody who's beating your brother to death and beating you up every day and beating your mother and beating everybody in the house up in just a royal, you know what? Then that's the kind of psychopathy or sociopathy that you see those kind of people come from in what I call the nurture psychopath or sociopath or what do you call them? So I agree with you, the emotions they feel as we talked about, they go very small, very small. There's some there, not in all of them but in some they do have very small emotions they can feel and go through, but not to the degree that we're seeing here in this guy. That's why I'm going with the nurture and sort of nature on this part. Because when he says there was a man begging, that's when we see that eye flutter. And at this point, this indicates again, he's struggling with something. He's struggling with struggling to find the right words to give out. I'm sure he's been asked these kind of questions before and I'm sure in his mind he's thought up the answer what he would say, but now he's having to structure these things and then send them out. So I agree with you. I think we're seeing the eye fluttering there. And the guy says, and he was pleading, you see that nostril flare and as he breathes in. What was that? Cash. Making money, boys. We're making money. That indicates there's an emotion in play at that point. And I think that's that maybe anger or it may be again, regret being angry at himself for doing something he was, he hadn't done. And this is that one where he says, I shouldn't have done this one that way. I should have done that. When I first saw this one years ago, I said, okay, that's it. Because I saw, I think I saw the second one first. I was like, geez, this guy, he's either, or he's just, you know, this is the worst guy I've ever walked the planet. Then after seeing this one later on, I was like, this guy is fully. So for a lot of it, not all of it, but for a lot of it. Like Mark said, this is acting. A lot of this stuff is like, he's trying to be a big, the hero in prison kind of thing. But all these things we're seeing show that there are emotions in play there. When he says, they talked about the guy, he was, he says, and praying, I guess. Then we see that short breath out and a micro expression of contempt. And I don't know if that micro expression was for the guy or for him saying this or to the guy he's saying it to. He wish he hadn't said it. I can't figure that part out. Then we see the deep breath. He adapts again with that bottom lip. And that again puts me on the trail of emotion there. I think he's, and I'm focused on emotions because I'm really going hardcore one way or the other, nature versus nurture on this one. It was a man, he was begging and pleading and praying, I guess. And he was pleased God and all over the place. So I told him he could have a half hour to pray to God. And if God could come down and change the circumstances, he'd have that time. But God never showed up. And he never changed the circumstances. And that was that. It wasn't too nice. That's one thing I shouldn't have done that one. I shouldn't have done it that way. All of my wasn't happy that he wasn't going to pay me. He had the attitude that nobody could hurt him. I think he was wrong. Chase, what do you got? One thing I noticed here right away is this lower eyelid here squinting right at the words nobody could hurt him. And we see this squinting in, you know, old Western movies like a cowboy, you know, meet me at meet me at sunset out in the street kind of thing. This typically denotes discomfort or anger. Learn this from the grandfather, the godfather, the father of body language, Joe Navarro. And I want you to use this. I want you to use this squinting, this lower eyelid squinting technique. When you watch somebody read through a contract or tell you about a previous relationship or a previous employer at a job interview, the squinting is going to tell you exactly what to ask the next question about as soon as you see that. So Kuklinski's childhood was really bad. Both parents beat him, his siblings, his older brother, like Scott said, died of a head wound. Said he fell down the stairs. His younger brother was convicted of rape and murder of a 12 year old. And his wife reported that, you know, Richard was good and bad and that he never physically abused but emotionally abused the kids. And there is a genetic predisposition to psychopathy and child development has a major role in whether or not that's expressed. But psychopaths have reduced connections between and sociopaths in many cases, reduced connections between a part of the brain called the ventromedial prefernal cortex. And this is just the part that's kind of responsible for sentiments like empathy and guilt. And that connection that has a problem is between that and the amygdala, which kind of mediates our levels of fear and anxiety. So here's a psychopath spotting tip. What number is it? I think it's four. Four. They're much less likely to mimic verbal and facial expressions during conversation. But if they've practiced a whole lot and they can mimic those things, you'll see a longer delay between your expression or your communication and their facial reaction because our normal ones, when you talk to somebody who has empathy, you'll see it right away because it's not thought of, it's not a conscious process. So that's all I got with that one. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, nice. Thank you. Was it gonna pay me? I think we see disdain on that. So, you know, breaking of a social code. The code is if you borrow money from this guy or whoever I guess his boss is, you pay. And so disdain suggests you're breaking the social code. So some understanding of a certain code. So understand my thoughts would be when it comes to sociopathy, they're not being, they're antisocial, but it depends which society you belong to as to who's being antisocial. If you belong to the society who lent the money and said, look, pay it back with interest on a certain date, you don't pay it back, then, you know, time to put some heat on, some pressure on. And now in one person's mind, that's not antisocial behavior. It's part of the social contract. Just don't get involved with the wrong society. You know, if you think that the penalty is antisocial, don't be involved in that society. Nobody could hurt him. He said, nobody could hurt him. I think we see a chinge up there. And so there is some real aggression in there. I think he was wrong. That's really a power statement. So I think what we're seeing in all around this is the challenge here to power. Just as we saw back in the past video, he's got this story, this big story of challenging God's power. Now he's got a story of challenging the power of somebody who's made a deal, doesn't want to pay back that deal, wants to renege, thinks they can take the punishment or will not be punished. And he says, I challenge that and there you get punished. So a theme here of somebody who wants to challenge power, one very grand, almost kind of fallen angel-like in many ways. So that's a big story to play in a prison. It's basically to go, what you have here is Lucifer. What you have here is a fallen angel. What you have here is somebody who has fallen from grace and is now challenging the gods at every root. Here you've got what you have here is somebody who if you break the social code and you think you don't have to pay, I will challenge you and I will win. Straight down the line though, big challenger. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, so I'd reiterate that culture matters and what's acceptable in a culture if you live in a violent world is very different. Chase, I would say when you got promoted, I don't know, whatever E5, E6, E7, whenever you got promoted, you remember everyone who outranked you punching you in the shoulders, you walked down the line, right? That was just part of our culture. It's just one of those things. If you get wings or if you get some certain ranks, they'll drive the spikes from the back into your body. The more modern army people say, oh, you can't do that, I hear, but in my day when you got ranked, you got it pounded in or you got wings, you got them pounded in, that's just part of it. So culture matters. In the case of a very violent culture, it's acceptable, Mark, I think it's a great call out. This whole video, this video ends, if you watch the very end, with some mild contempt. You see that lip rise just a bit. I'm not sure who it's for, but it's for the guy that he killed, injured, whatever, or it's for the guy he's talking to. There's sarcasm in the smirk when he's talking about the guy. He does something that I have a friend does this when he's making a point. He does the whole moving is, and I don't think it's because he's feeling stress or fear. This guy, every time he makes a point, just before he makes a point, he'll go, well, and it's just a behavior pattern for that guy. I think that's what we're seeing here. I believe this story. I believe he went and took out some kind of vengeance on a guy who didn't pay him. And you can tell because his speaking is less labored. There's less emotion to it. It's probably something he felt justified for and it's more smooth. I think it's a fairly easy one to follow. Scott, what do you got? Yeah, in the comments, because y'all comment on this, I think Greg looks a little bit more friendly when he's wearing a jacket and a shirt and a button-up shirt like that. Shucks. So I think it looks less threatening, Greg. It's just my- I'll start dressing this way all the time. Okay, I dare you. Okay, when coming into there when he's talking about the guy owning money, what happened was this guy was a really low-end like the guy who got your money. If he owed money, he went and got it. He was that guy, break your leg, break your knee, whatever, let's pop your knee out. And he had a sheet, four feet long B&E's and everything, all these small, small comparatively crimes. So he couldn't be in the mob. He could be hired by the mob. He could be an outside contractor because he wasn't Italian. You can't get in if you're not Italian. So that was a big problem he had with that. He couldn't get in, but he was always on the outskirts of it. So he wasn't really in. So he liked to feel like he was in. So his lips are pursed to the side and he breathes out a little bit and has a little micro expression of a smile because he's almost dismissing this guy, showing his dominance, his narcissistic dominance over this guy. You know, that's why his head goes back. Next is with the flared nostrils as well because I believe he was probably mad or had to be mad to go do this, but we're seeing a lot of these narcissistic things come out as they will in this personality type we know. The chin jet and the head jet, of course that's aggression. And that suggests or indicates that anger towards that guy, I don't think it's toward the guy talking and asking the questions or anything. And all this leads up to anger toward the guy that he killed. I believe that's what it is. I'm going back to mimicking Chase because that's one of my favorite things to talk about as well. What they will mimic, as you know, is they will mimic you. They'll watch you and see your emotions and then if you get mad about something, later on they'll go get mad about it somewhere else and sort of rehearse this emotion and let people see it so it looks like they have that emotion or are experiencing that or happiness where the thing was. And they'll say the exact same things you will, quite often. I've heard a guy, I've told that story before where I heard a guy do it in the booth sitting behind me. It was a guy I knew and I was like, oh no, he didn't start putting things together and bound out a bunch of really horrible stuff about him. And he's looking at Canada and don't worry, you won't be there very long there and they'll be coming for you. I always say that. I'll get you. So that's what I got for that one. The man owed me money. He was giving me a run around. I told him I wasn't happy that he wasn't gonna pay me. Hey, he had the attitude that nobody could hurt him. I think he was wrong. We good? Yeah, we're good. All right. What'd you do afterwards? I walked away, got in my car and went home. What'd you do when you got home? I put toys together for the kids for Christmas. I saw the broadcast while I was putting the toys together that came down. Marble related killing. That was the first time I knew I was Marble related. How'd you feel? I was annoyed I couldn't get the damn wagon together. All right, I'm gonna go first on this one. It's gonna be pretty short because I think he's full of it. I don't think this happened anyway at all. Like he said, it happened. There's nothing there. He's not, at this point, he's trying to make stuff up but he's got nothing. And it wasn't the first time he learned he was Marble related because he knew he was Marble related because one of his first jobs for the mob was to off somebody. And this wasn't one of his first jobs. It describes that in the beginning of it. And all the details that went into it. Of all these details he went through at the beginning of this, which you didn't get to hear, we should have put in there was a little bit graphic. Then he comes up with this answer to these things. Nothing there, I don't, I don't, I'm not buying this at all. I don't know. So Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I agree, too many vocal clicks in there. I mean, just, I walked away, vocal click and then there's just a succession of them after that. So that immediately alerts me that there's some kind of stress going on in this story. And I've got here, I got here in my note here, like this is a front. This is just, he's just fronting it now completely, I believe, a chin jut before mob related killing. So I think he's wanting to see us off that idea. Like, I didn't know I was anything to do with that. Now, maybe that's a cultural thing. Like you can't say, you know, look, I was part of this thing called the mob. That's not a thing that you ever admit to. And it may be something around that. But certainly, again, this challenger comes out again. That's about the realest thing that I think we have there is this challenger comes again. He is it, he is on for a challenge. He isn't going to challenge authority, be it the highest, you know, in the universe, if possible, or somebody who's made a mistake within his society. He's going to challenge those. Laughs and checks the camera, you know, and I that kind of alert him like why the laughter because that is often a release of tension. So what is not often it laughter is always a release of tension. OK, so so what is that tension about? What did he have tension about around that? A look of approval there. Now, how do you feel? How do you feel is the question? And I count around about four thoughts go through his head until he lands on the idea that that he lands on, which is he was annoyed about not being able to do the, you know, the kids toy, you know, which is a lovely idea. Like it's a super lovely idea. Like all I could think about was how this kids toy was really annoying me. It's like, oh, you're cold, you're cold, you are. Well, you're an arse, do you? When you are, sir, it's like it's all goes to go. What can I land on on that one? I know didn't like the toys. So so yeah, he is. He is a misfit toy, this one, certainly. But yeah, I'm not buying it. Not buying it at all. Still wouldn't like to be in a room with him, but not buying him. Chase, what do you got on this one? So I totally agree with you and you guys got a lot of a lot of what I had here. This is absolute BS. And you know what it sounds like? It sounds like an 80s movie. It sounds like something you would see from a script in the 80s and early 90s. And that's where the culture was at the time. So that's the story that he probably put together from from watching all that stuff in the media. We're still seeing his need to see the reactions of people. And we're seeing the eye contact and the kind of checking with the interviewer, checking with the camera to seek to get some reaction only at the moments that he's feeling powerful and strong. And I think, again, this speaks to probably what I would estimate to be similar behavior with victims. And we're seeing the smile come up here right at the moment that it's most creepy, that it would be most creepy for the camera, but the mob. And there's this, I think the perfect example here of the second type of squinting. So we're seeing discomfort this time and not anger with the same lower eyelid behavior. So this little lower eyelid squint, it was anger before or being a tough guy. And now we're seeing discomfort with the same squint. So now you get a chance to see the same eyelid movement under a different circumstance to see the two body language definitions of this behavior right there. So let me give you one more tip here. And I think this will be number five. Psychopaths and sociopaths are extremely rewards driven and even in the face of severe consequences, they'll keep going through it. So when they're performing actions for reward, a psychopath's brain in particular can release up to four times the levels of dopamine that your brain and my brain can release. That's all I got, Greg. Yeah, his blink rate does increase and it's interesting at blink rate increases to start with, and then he makes real hard eye contact in a way he hasn't done up to now. He does that pursing of his lips a little bit. And I agree with you, Chase, with the eye squinting thing. I was actually in my notes. I said, who does he think he's Clint Eastwood? Because he's got some snarky line for the squint in his eyes and he's got some snarky line for the wagon and that kind of stuff. And you're like, yeah, he closes with some self amusement. You see him kind of doing a little almost like almost on the edge of Dooper's Delight or something there. But he's got some self amusement for sure, not sure exactly why. But he's trying to get across that he's a hard ass, that he's this, that. Now, the other one that I would say is exactly the line I was thinking of a line from from not Apocalypse. Now, what's the other one from Joker? Recoil. I can't think of the name of the movie. You know it well. It's two movies. But anyway, not more movie. No, a Vietnam War movie. It really starts off one way ends the other. It's got full metal jacket, full metal jacket. Yeah, there's a great line. What do you feel recoil? That kind of line is what you're dead on. Exactly something from a movie to make him a hard ass. I don't think any of us are buying that. But I agree. I won't be in a room with a guy just because he didn't kill 100. Doesn't mean he didn't kill 15 and do horrible things. Yeah, that's all I got. What'd you do afterwards? I walked away, got in my car. I went home. What'd you do when you got home? I put toys together for the kids for Christmas. I saw the broadcast while I was putting the toys together that came down. Marble related killing. That was the first time I knew I was Marble related. How'd you feel? I was annoyed I couldn't get the damn wagon together. I've never felt sorry for anything I've done other than hurting my family. The only thing I feel sorry for. I'm not looking for forgiveness and I'm not repenting. I do want my family to forgive me. I'm going to make this one. This would never be me. This would not be me. I feel for my family. You see the ice men cry. Not very macho. People that mean everything to me. But the only people that mean anything to me. All right, Greg, what do you got? So at hurting my family, his breathing changes. You hear him start to change respiration. Then his blink rate increase just a touch. He doesn't do a lot of blinking. He does that jaw milling thing we were talking about earlier. He's crunching his teeth together or something. So you see these jaw muscles flexing and relaxing. Then he does an expulsive kind of breath or a sigh. And you can hear then that he's really choking back tears. This is genuine, whatever's causing it. I mean, guys, if you've ever been a pleasure in trying to choke back tears, everybody has their own style of doing that. But you can hear the moisture in his mucus membranes starting to build up in his throat, all that kind of thing. And then you see if he were shaving, you would see Chase, your chin boss, that trembling at the chin and the lower mouth doing that. And this is how we know that that thing he does with his mouth all the time as an adapter and not just some kind of sarcasm or that. Because when he's trying to choke back that emotion, he's doing that. Not to mention all the tongue between the teeth and all those things about distaste. So here we see who the person really is. From my angle, if we talk about nurture versus nature and we believe that nature, people who are born without the ability to process information and create the amygdala create the message. I would think he's not that kind. I would think he's just been so hardened by abuse that he can turn the stuff on and off. So I think if I were choosing one of your guys' ways, we're talking about it. I would say nurture, not nature. That's just my point. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so there's just too many kind of vocal clicks and, you know, stuff going on here and real emotion. I absolutely agree that what I get is the stress of an internal battle going on. And the battle, I think, is between the superhero that he's set up called the Iceman, which is a. He's a supervillain and who is, you know, I think it's probably I didn't know about the the ice crystals idea, Greg. My assumption was it was about how what a cold killer he is. And I assume that's that's what led it to become, you know, his trademark is that it's like he is stone cold, icy cold, emotionless. And so I think he's trying to keep that persona in front of us or that mask in front of us and he's wrestling because internally he has real feelings for real people in his family. And that's not to say that he didn't hurt those people as well. It is it is more than complicated. It's it's complex and and and in no way should be celebrated. So I'm not celebrating this behavior in any way whatsoever. But there's a real internal battle going on. There's real there's a wrestling match going on. There's real empathy for that family. The Iceman is a cover story. You you see this digging of the teeth here, which I think is not just withheld opinion, not just like I'm not going to say this. I don't want to let this out. But I think it's probably a stimulation action in order to control the emotion. He's going to cause himself some pain in his lips to bring his attention into that pain rather than the internal wrestling pain that's going on. It's interesting, though, how he still kind of transfers to you're seeing the Iceman cry rather than you're seeing me cry. So again, so he is able to save it for himself. Probably, you know, he's going to have to his his, you know, the other inmates are going to see this and he's going to be able to say, well, that was the Iceman. I'm still the Iceman, the Iceman cry. So it's still the Iceman. He still says the Iceman exists. The Iceman hasn't melted because he's still got to go in with that story of I think I mean, there isn't a weak version of me. There's the Iceman now crying. So the Iceman is still here. Still, at the end of the day, still looks like a knitwear catalogue model, though, so still not as scary as he could be to somebody like like me who doesn't respect knitwear. I do respect Scott, though. Scott, what have you got? Thanks, Mark. I agree with you. He's talking about himself in the third person of this thing he's created that somebody else called him because like Greg was saying earlier, what he would do to to mess up the timeline on when the bodies were found on when they actually died, he would put him in a freezer sometimes for a year, so for quite a long time, then go throw him out in the woods. But one time they found one too early and like, hey, man, this guy's frozen. There was ice inside this guy when they were doing the autopsy. So I think this this clip shows exactly why he's not the nature psychopath, but he's more the nurture, quote, unquote, psychopath, where because he has true feelings that are coming out here. We see a series of gestures and cues and expressions and verbalizations of emotion here and at sorrow, regret, regret and pain. We're seeing all those things in this. The clinched jaw and those deep breaths and those heavy sighs that tells you pretty much everything. And again, like you nailed it, Greg. We see that the chin boss down there. We see that trembling down there and we see tears. He's got tears in his eyes. One of the main things we hear here that goes against everything for the even the clinical narcissist is where two times he says he was wrong. He says he was wrong about what he did because he hurt his family. And he says that hurt his family was the worst things ever done, obviously. But he says I was wrong two times. I think that's you're not going to hear that ever from a psychopath unless he's mimicking somebody, but I don't think he's mimicking this. Everything we saw here, these are all true emotions. I think we're seeing this point. So I don't think he's a clinical psychopath. I think he's the hardcore criminal who was raised in a violent with a violent upbringing, no love, no positive interactions, nothing like that from either one of his parents. And he went on to do that to his own family, not knowing the real difference, you know, because that's the way that usually travels through through generations of people doing that. But that's why I think that we're not seeing a true psychopath here. Although he did many of the same things, a true psychopath would do. We're not seeing those behaviors here, which are true, not just a little bit of emotion, but a lot of emotion here. And you don't see that in a psychopath. Chase, what do you got? I was watching this this morning to Greg's comment about the the chin boss movement here, which we will see this muscle quiver during grief and sometimes shame. And it was the first time it reminded me of the term bald faced lie. A person will tell a bald face lie, which refers to a person having no facial hair and still being willing to be deceptive, but we definitely see that muscle in here. I think the majority of the sadness we're seeing here, I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to say this is self pity sadness. This is like I've done all of these things and look at me. I feel so bad. I'm ashamed. It had nothing to do with hurting them. It had to do with how he felt. It was all about him. And I think that was inward directed pity that we're seeing there. I think it's also funny. Scott, you're saying it made a mistake and all this stuff. He's taken on the name Iceman, which he was named for because of a mistake. The whole thing is is because of a mistake. Hey, go. I think that's unusual, too, that he would do that. And maybe he doesn't even know why they say that. I don't know. It had to come up in prosecution. But yeah, I think that's pretty interesting. And I think Scott speaks to your point as well. Most of the facial movements that we're seeing here, I think are our emotional redirection. And I think the Chen boss does show us that's almost impossible to fake that level of Chen bossery. And psychopaths can feel some emotion. Sociopaths can feel some emotion, but most of the time it's not like just like Scott said, it's not to the level that you're going to see here. And typically, according to peer reviewed research, the sadness and emotion that psychopaths can feel to an almost normal level is when it's about someone they care about or someone they're attached to, like family members, things like that. But 99% of the time those emotions are severely muted. And the only regret will usually come from hurting someone close to them. And that's documented. And it had and it was documented before this this case ever took place. So disrespect, rejection by other people. And typically loss of control and number one in all the research here in all the research that I looked through this morning was loneliness, loneliness, and he even uses the word lonely in some of these interviews. And not not what we looked at tonight, but loneliness was one of the number one things that causes that level of emotion and psychopath. So if you ever encounter one of these people, I'll teach you a quick trick here. And if you want to prevent yourself from being sold a product or being sold a human being, hold your chin while you're talking like this. It'll make you look interested and it will keep you from nodding when they are trying to get approval from you by nodding their head like this. It will keep you from doing that. Even look at these guys here. All three of them kept themselves from nodding and we nod to each other the whole YouTube video and they stopped. So it'll keep you from nodding. It'll keep you from agreeing with a person. So finally, as our last way to spot a psychopath, they might display the wrong emotion on accident in response to good or bad information. My aunt just got in a car crash and they smiled first and then correct it. Or we say some really great news. I'm just just got tickets to go to Hawaii regarding this major vacation. And they had this big frown on their face and then correct it instantaneously or very quickly to the appropriate emotion that they've learned over time. I've never felt sorry for anything I've done other than hurting my family. The only thing I feel sorry for. I'm not looking for forgiveness and I'm not repenting. No, I am wrong. I do want my family to forget me. I can make this one. This would never be me. This would not be me. I feel for my family. You see the Iceman cry. Not very macho people that mean. Everything to me. But the only people that mean anything to me. OK, let's run around the room one time. We'll say what we think. We'll wrap it up and say what we think about this guy in these videos. And then we'll go one at a time. We'll start with Mark and Chase and then Greg. Mark. Yeah, look, clearly he's a bad lad. Clearly there's nothing, you know, to celebrate about him. Done some bad stuff. Absolutely. But I'm not buying any of it from him. Certainly not the degree that he's going to. There's a lot of story going on there, a lot of masking to protect something, some some quite strong feelings inside there. And I'll say it again, he looks like an eighties knitwear catalog model. So I'm not that scared, not that scared of him. Chase, what do you got? I think he looks like an eighties knitwear catalog model. I totally agree with you. If you look throughout his entire life and everything that he's done to his family, his kids, all the killings, everything's about significance. And the moment that he got arrested, the only way to maintain a high level of significance is to create Iceman, to be Iceman and make it as bad and dangerous as possible. Because that's at that point when you're locked up in a cell, that's the only way to become drastically more significant, which he thrives on. Greg. Hate to say it, but he's fulfilling his Maslow in his own little world where he gets to be the coolest bad guy he knows. That's all that is, is he's making himself more significant than he was. Ask yourself for just a minute. Go watch our Eileen Warnows video. Go watch our Richard Rodriguez video and tell me which of the three doesn't fit the mold. That's my only question. I think, yes, he may behave like a psychopath and he may behave like all of that. But I think it's a learned trait to your guys point. It's a nature versus a nurture thing. Those folks, you make no mistake. Did you ever see a teardrop out of either one of those people's eyes? Laughter, maybe not teardrops. So it's a very different mindset. I think the guy, yes, of course, he killed people. They know how many they can track, but I think he's self aggrandizing. And, you know, that comes with the territory. I'm going to make myself bigger and cooler than I was. And it probably keeps people off you and it gives you some notoriety. There's also at least one article I read that said the second more famous interview in 2003. His wife was paid handsomely for that. So there's a way to provide for your family while you're in prison. Scott, what do you got? Yeah. Yeah, I think you nailed that one. Yeah, I think we're seeing this is a classic example of someone who everybody goes, oh, this guy's a psychopath, but he's not. He's not a clinical psychopath. He's a hardcore criminal who had a rough upbringing and was just a violent person. And those people end up in prison fairly early. Most of the time this guy made it for a while, but they end up being killed and killing somebody just out of anger and going to prison whereas he planned all the ones he killed. And I don't think by any means that he kill over 100 people or even close to that. I think a lot of what we're seeing is like all you guys were saying, he's acting, he's making a lot of this stuff up so he can be the ice man. One thing I learned from being in the music business, being around people who are famous for a really long time is they they'll start those that sort of become detached from the earth. They start talking about themselves in the third person. And I think I've told you all the story about the one guy. It was an elevator story that I've told you guys before we'll go over it later. I can't tell it here, but these he would talk about himself. You want to go do this with with with he would say his first name. And I've seen that time and you'll see people on talk shows referred to. Well, so and so doesn't do that kind of thing. He's not that kind of person. It's like, well, dude, you're talking about you and that's what he's doing here. And you see that in these highly narcissistic personality types. Someone can start off normal and then turn into that. But in this case, I think he it started when he was little after being brought in such a violent family and violent surroundings as he grew up. But I don't think he killed that many people. I think we've seen both bald face lie here like Chase was saying. And I don't think he's a psychopath. I think he's a hardcore criminal. That's what I think. All right. Well, if you like what we're doing, please subscribe and hit the little bell down there after that. And I'll let you know we have a new video come out. I think there's a good and fellas and I'll see you next time. Thanks.