 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today. I'm joined by Randy rainwater Randy welcome to the podcast Nice to be here. Yeah, you've been on my list for a long time We've been talking about doing this and getting you on and kind of met it I think one or two of the drum shows probably Chicago and we finally made it happen So this has been a while in the making here. I know and I appreciate your wife Nancy helping you to get it set up That's always nice to have some help So Randy like I said, you're kind of a staple at the drum shows. You've got quite the collection yourself, which we'll hear about and But today we're specifically talking about like rare and unique drum finishes which there really is Some some very unique finishes that we all kind of know about but I think you know a lot more about them With some of the big brands So why don't we jump in here a little bit and I think a good starting point is maybe explain what got you into Really studying these these great finishes and acquiring them and and learning about them And then we'll we'll talk about each individual one, but what drew you to you know rare and unique drum finishes Well as far as collecting rare finishes, it was I collected everything a Lot of collectors start out buying everything they can get their hands on and occasionally you come across a gem Here and there I don't I can't afford to chase down You know super rare finishes and stuff and it's just the stuff that I do have that's Rare It's kind of dumb luck. Sure how it started and Mainly a Ludwig guy, but I come across some other stuff that was You know that I really like and I used to have everything and I'm kind of trying to thin the hurt a little bit But you know, I don't have you know the pocketbook to a board shopping Her peacock pearl and all that yeah I'm glad you said that though because sometimes like I've said it in a few episodes before But like you hear about some collectors where they obviously have I mean everyone usually has a different job But some of these collections are so huge where it's like is it just me who can't afford to buy every single thing they come across? You know, it's some of the big shot collectors, you know like bunny and my kerato and these guys and money doesn't seem to be as big of a issue You know When you're hunting Super rare finishes, you know, I've only lucked into a few really Rare ones. Yeah, you know I've got a lot of 60 stuff you have the mod finishes and the 60 stuff where you know, they kind of came to the surface like 15 20 years ago again after being You know a little more obscure. Yeah Yeah, well, you know the beauty of all this of all this stuff to do with drums is you don't have to own Stuff to be knowledgeable about it and to study it and to love it because like there's things like drum archive Dot-com and there's there's all these you can look at old articles and things like that just to enjoy it so On that note, which is kind of what we'll do today is talk about them so people can can learn about them and just look at pictures Maybe Google it and all that stuff So Randy, let's hop in and I I think it's good to maybe start Way back and go, you know talk about some of the older finishes Like I know there's the like autograph of the stars finish and stuff like that and the the top hat and cane which is Kind of one of the famous super sought after ones. So Let's jump in here history wise And what are some some some really old finishes that you think are are very rare and again These aren't things you have to have physically owned yourself But just so folks can look them up and enjoy it and and kind of follow along with us Where do you think it begins with the the rare? finishes in history, oh You know like mostly the 20 stuff the you know the peacock like I mentioned before Terracotta sure and you know, of course Butterscotch Bob Campbell just did an article on butterscotch pearl. That's what it's been named I don't know who's the official name of it. It was an uncatalog finish, you know There's a turquoise pearl, you know a kind of a streaked pearl So let me ask you this though. So that's an interesting point you said about uncategorized finishes because like I don't know if you know this information, but like how does that work where like they're releasing finishes Was it just like, you know, it was way before the internet? Obviously it was it was pretty early on Would they just make finishes and just not categorize it and or put it in a catalog and just Send them out or what was the kind of thought process behind that? And this is this is strictly of my my personal theory as it's like I don't like when people get, you know, they're they're theories mixed up with facts So I want to make it real clear that I can only assume that they did like they do now is A small test run of some finish that you know Seeing how it how it looks how how it flies how it's received And so some stuff pops up, you know, and You know, it's like finding a Ludwig kit in anniversary sparkle That you know, it's traditionally a gretch finish But they exist, you know And Years back Joe Loma came up with that gretch kit that they reproduced Uh with the kind of the sunburst or brown burst finish on it Which they started reproducing a few years back Um You know and then Some guys came up with another gretch kit that had like weird finish on it that nobody's ever seen So you know, I can only assume that these were You know tests or special orders or Uh, you know prototype or something. Yeah, like a prototype. I guess would be the perfect way to describe them. Um, yeah You know, that's still Ludwig comes up with stuff now that shows up at the drum show You know, we did ten of these and you know and stuff like that Yeah It's interesting because it really means that like you got to have a keen eye to maybe see This particular sparkle finish is like, oh, that's Super rare where someone might just walk by it if it's if it's like a particular if it's not something that stands out Like a top hat and cane or whatever. Uh, you just got to kind of know what you're looking for So with the big brands and this is getting pretty specific, but like are you aware of like Were they making these these wraps and these finishes in house or were these being kind of Acquired by you know a manufacturer like That they could all buy from or how did that do you know how that would work? I I don't but I would only assume that they would there was somebody that was manufacturing Per their specs and stuff. I can't imagine they did all that in house No, do they in your in your experience collecting and finding them, you know at drum shows Do they hold up pretty well? There's the glue stick after all that time or is there some some repair that's needed? it's funny how how You know, I think it goes for a lot of products It's like sometimes it seems like the newer they are at times the less they hold up I remember like Finishes from like 20 years ago. We're all cracking and shattering on the drums where you can find a Like a 60s Ludwig kit in a barn and and wipe the dust off and it still looks great most of the time unless it's really beat, but You know, it seemed like some of the stuff when they tried to make it cheaper It was just that cheaper. Yeah in quality, you know, yeah shrinkage and shattering and you know stuff like that Yeah, so all right, so if we're talking in the 20s now, which which I mean, that's a hundred years ago Yeah, like pretty crazy to think that I mean and they they were really really cool finishes. So this would be Brands like maybe name some of the brands so folks can like look them up. It would obviously be Ludwig at that point Leedy, right? Who else would be in the in the manufacturing? You know world at that point on Gretch Gretch Slinger than Ludwig Leedy, of course It's it's it's funny to see some of the You know, like this the 60s finish like the german ones from sonars and and uh trick sands always had Pretty cool finishes. Yeah And of course, you know when the japanese started getting into the The the drum world then then that was The possibilities were endless with all the different and kind of the ripoff finishes some of them were, you know But yeah, they're they're awesome though. Those are some of my favorites. Yeah, they're really cool which uh, you know and maybe this is something too we can talk about as we go is the what was popular as at each decade because like, uh, you know sparkle becomes popular and then the The oyster pearls obviously after ringo became very popular and i'm sure before that but It seemed like from what I can tell Uh in the 20s it looks like a lot of that like Um that kind of swirl and what what is the what would the term for that be? That you you said it's almost like a peacock finish But it seemed like there was that kind of marbly look to a lot of them The one I was trying to think of before was like an abalone finish. That's what I was There's a couple different versions of that um But uh, it's just it's it's one of the most beautiful finishes. Yeah, but yeah, I don't know how they You know, it's makes you wonder how they came up with this stuff You know if they if the stuff was you know, they always you know, like mother of toilet seat They would call it where they use this white marine pearl on hair brushes and dressing table sets and um, you seen different things that were So somewhat laminated with this plastic. So if that's You know, there was some manufacturer making this and yeah, I can only assume that the drum manufacturer is kind of Somebody had that idea to put it on a drum set. Yeah, like the original design because they're not using photoshop the original design of that Finish and I remember it uh seeing some video once of like You know old books have that kind of swirly multicolored like like almost like a dark like a purple and a dark Yeah, like this pattern and I remember seeing them make that where it was like liquids paint, I guess put in this thing and then it had like Uh, like needles that would go through and pull through the liquid to give it that kind of swirly finish Raking, I think it's all like a rake finish. Yeah, we're I think that's how the oysters and stuff were done If I if I'm right on that. Yeah, um, they never seem to be able to get it right when they reproduce. They're getting close but it's uh They can never quite get it nailed down to be as good as the old stuff. You know, that's what I hear Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong. I like the new ones um Because I'm I'm all about the panache when it comes to a drum set. Yeah, yeah Um Yeah, they just they can't quite seem to reproduce the old finishes to a tee Yeah, nothing's nothing's like the same as it is it used to be but um, it's probably an epa thing Yeah, it was probably made of like Lead and asbestos and all this stuff. Yeah, it's probably formaldehyde. Yeah asbestos. Yeah Yeah, all right. So that's the 20s which we can kind of picture and I'm sure people can google it, but like Like trap drum sets. I mean really it's kind of the new world of like, you know Big bass drum and a little trap table with your beautiful bass drum that's got the finish on it Like maybe like a chinese tom tom, which would be a different color Uh, not really the traditional You know four piece or five piece jazz drum set. So Let's move forward then so if that was the 20s, then we get into like the 30s As we move forward, what was getting different? Well, the the evolution of the drum set went from snare to snare and bass to snare and bass and contraptions, you know trap set and uh symbols chinese toms weird little clangy things and you know sound effects stuff and um Then they started making tom toms to add to a drum set with You know some of them were tacked. I I had some that were tacked top and bottom heads and um, but then the tack bottom heads and then I think I read somewhere that gene krupa had the idea to make double tuning drums I heard that too. I think brooks said that so I trust brooks on yeah, he's if it's slingerland He's usually up on it. Yeah and um And then you know the rest is history, you know a drum sets as we know them Everybody seems keeps trying to reinvent the wheel, but it kind of keeps going back to you know A regular drum set again. Yeah, it's like everything progressed To a point and then it was like this is good like this is a good drum set let's you know, we can we can keep it there and I guess you know, it's it's almost just like Uh, you take for granted now that it was like, you know the drum matches the floor tom matches the bass drum But like we were saying before the chinese tom tom would have been like red And then there maybe would be no floor tom, but then you add the tom in and it's just more room to spread that finish out and And have that I mean drums are beautiful And it's neat too when like, you know companies like slingerland will be making banjos and and that was as mark cooper said the most popular instrument in the world and I like to see when people have the matching banjo And drum set in his case in that green that oh, yeah, that's the green and the rose pearl banjos Yeah, you know, it's just like is that everybody hopes to find one of those even if you don't play banjo. Oh, yeah You just have it but yeah, so um Now are there any finishes that come to mind in I mean this is super specific But like the 30s or 40s that we're starting to see like In your knowledge, when does like white marine pearl become sort of the iconic like jazzer drum finish Well, I think it's um It was probably the most accessible it was probably the easiest to get and it was probably Again, I can only assume it was probably the first step up away from painted finishes You know because it was the most accessible and then, you know, of course, they start adding colors And then they uh, you see a few of these pearl sets wfl where it's like a fade where it's blue white blue Like a paint underneath the perloid I've seen one's like a black diamond with a red stripe through it and stuff like that, you know But you know, just like the 60s. I just wonder how popular something that was you know Too wild for the time, you know, it's too Too against the grain, you know Because you don't see you don't see as many of those you do the white marine pearl or the black diamond. Yeah And uh, yeah, I mean that's like You know, they make a bunch of cars in silver and blue and black But they don't make cars and like Millions of cars and like neon green I was gonna say that. Yeah, you don't see a lot of lime green cars, you know, but you do see you do see them though They're out there. Yeah. Yeah. Can you explain you just said perloid when people like maybe we also just hit on some of the Like terminology so people know what does that refer to? As as the perloid is that like, uh, like obviously we're talking about pearl But like, yeah, is that like because you said adding that over the paint Well, you know, I peeled the drum set one time, but um, you know I just anticipate if anybody listens to this, you know busting my chops at the show, you know You know, you don't know what you're talking about. I peeled a gretz drum set one time And the pearl came off, but the color stayed on the shell so The pearl was like Like a translucent like that contact paper you stick in a bathroom window With the color underneath it. So it's funny that you don't see more crazy finishes With that technique, you know, I can only assume that's how the Some of those earliest wfl kits were done with the the multicolored pearl was with a a paint underneath the the uh The perloid over the top of it. Yeah, kind of like a a clear coat basically Yeah, it's like a clear plastic that looks like pearl but with no color. Yeah It's interesting. I remember uh, I got to listen back to it But steel turkington from kentville drum heads and repairs did did an episode He really broke down about it's a layer of this and then it's a layer of clear And then it's a layer of sparkle and it was I mean, it's a science. Uh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah I did some r&d for a plastic company The guy and his son The son was a drummer and We met up and started doing some stuff Well, they said I they were trying to reinvent the wheel and uh, I gave him some samples of different drum raps and and he had some There I think they were trying to do it more economical but they They had some somebody that was fresh out of college Told them they couldn't make drums wrap out of some material and I go Well, what's it made out of and he goes just that And I go well, how do they argue that it can't be made out of that if it that's what it is made out of Of course, you know, now it's pv a lot of it's pvc You get some that's a little more rubbery than others, you know, I've got some stuff. I think it's some import stuff it's um Has a different feel to it and I wrap a lot of kits for people and and myself, you know well, I Later I want to talk about that because that's that's not it's not an easy process It's not cheap to to buy all the wrap. No, it's not. Yeah Yeah, and I'm always I've wanted to do it for so long But I'm always I'm like, you know, I'm gonna do it and then I look and I add it up And I'm like, oh, it's like $600 to buy all this stuff and then it's like, okay I'm gonna screw this up, but I want to get your tips later. But um So before we move on I gotta ask you though. You were talking about uh painted Drum shells as as the the you know, uh as the finish which makes perfect sense because of course You know people would paint things, uh, and I'm sure it was probably lead-based paint but way back in the day, which uh nowadays is not You don't want um Would would the downside of painting the drum shells be that it flakes off and it it there What's that whole process like? Well, that's I think that's the The curse of the The painted drum set They don't seem to be primed very you very often You know like bass drum hoops where the black just falls off the the maple and the the painted drums are usually maple underneath the paint towards a nice smooth finish to paint on and Of course with No bonding agent and any kind of primer or anything like that it you know expands and contracts with temperature Probably different than the wood. Yeah, you know, I can How I always figure it but it just ends up getting off checked and Yeah, so as I mentioned before I just want to get your because there's some that are like the uh The coca-cola of like rare drum head drum finishes where people know them where it would be the top hat and cane Which would be Ludwig, correct? Right, uh And then there's the autograph of the stars if i'm not mistaken. These are just the ones where if you google rare finishes They usually show up that was ledie, wasn't it? Yeah Okay, what's your thoughts on these are they like I mean, I imagine they they're astronomically expensive because maybe they're kind of In our world household names where people know know those What do you think about those super rare ones that are buzz worthy? What one turned up a few years ago? Which was a white marine pearl kit? That was an autograph of the stars kit instead of that blue Yeah, the blue. Yeah, well there was Steve Maxwell Had the one that was just like You know the freak drum set that was I don't know who ended up with that michael uskovich or somebody ended up with it And uh, but it was like Never seen another one, you know wow prototype like you were saying where it was probably hey, let's try it in white Yeah, yeah, exactly you know 10 to 1 the bean counter at the factory like it's not cost effective to do specialty, you know They're really cool though. I think that one is neat And I can't remember I remember I looked at it a long time ago I think I did there's a ledie episode with rob cook, which is episode like five or something um Who were the autographs? Were they just celebrities of the day or were they like fake? I thought I you know, I don't really know. Uh, I thought they were like ledie endorsers Oh, cool. Like famous drummers Now ledie players. Yeah, I had heard correctly. Yeah, that's cool. So we talked about painted finishes And then now I guess moving forward we kind of get into obviously there's there there's the The wrap and all that stuff as we as we go on So that was kind of 30s ish Moving 30s into 40s. There's the famous, you know the wartime drums as joey boom has covered on the show a few times What about that? What's what's your thoughts in in this era? Of collecting in that that late 30s early to mid 40s. Uh, what do you find there? That's funny Everything everything world war two. I had I sold to joe. Yeah Uh, because it's his thing Yeah, you know, yeah, uh, but yeah, you know, that was it was kind of cool They still used perloid on some of the rolling bomber kits you know a lot of them were you know the Rosewood lugs and the You know painted finishes, but it was nice to see nothing prettier than a White marine pearl kit with rosewood lugs on it. Yeah, and like I say, I don't another one I don't come across very often. Yeah, I don't pursue as much as I You know, I used to be I the only thing I was ahead of the curve on a lot of these young guys where I was out Pulling stuff out of the newspaper every day If you remember what a newspaper used to be it was a Newspaper no, I'm kidding And uh, so I was up early in the morning I get the paper and I'd start calling people They had grandpa's drum set me attic and wanted to get rid of it So that's you know, how you find a bunch of this crazy old stuff and of course now you know Picking of anything is is getting harder and harder because of all these tv shows and And stuff like that. Yeah, very true. I don't know, but they're you're right Where I mean, it seems to me like rolling bombers and the other ones you see a lot of white marine pearl um, but I guess that's interesting because that that finish and that Perloid what maybe wasn't so needed in the war effort Uh, where they could still use it because I guess it's just a chemical mixture where it's more Uh attainable versus the metal which would be like Yeah, the yeah, the metal is the thing that changed the whole Design of the wartime drums. It could only be like 10 metal, you know as minimal As possible. Yeah. Okay. So uh now that's all kind of the early stuff when when we get Forward into like the 50s and 60s. I think that's more kind of modern drum set where you're still People take them out to gigs on a weekly basis now, which they do with you don't really have like a 30s drum set at a bar You know playing covers you can I'm sure people do I do you do. Yeah I uh, I played in a thing one time where it was, you know, you This guy had this big massive kit with a cage and all kinds of stuff and I had this 30s radio king set And I had to set up on the floor because this guy's Set took up half the bar and um So we played and The sound guy come up to me and he's like Your drum set sounded great through the PA. He says and wait a year. This guy's kid You know, it was it was just horrible and uh, but yeah, someone said to me one time they go You know if you can't take these kids out and play them you you'll wreck them And I'm like you take them out and you play them. You just don't abuse them You know, you don't roll them across the dance floor when you're loading out at night You know, I put them in a case and put them in the truck Yeah, and uh, so maybe don't do a heavy metal a speed metal gig. Yeah, 40s kit. I mean, yeah All right, that's interesting. So so okay never mind. You do take them out and play them But getting into the the 50s and the 60s I mean again, that's like to me though where people you start to see The japanese brands kind of come in and copy 60s 70s, which I think does go back I'm gotta remember back to the old tomah episodes where they did start to appear Kind of in the late 50s if i'm not mistaken. Um, I gotta check on that but uh, I feel like drums you got your gene krupa. He was obviously already popular But drummers seem to be very much in the front of things 60s for sure, but What kind of finishes did we see uh, see then if if you know pick it up where you think it gets more the most interesting Whenever 60s. Well, I have 50s and 60s, you know 50s again like the wfl stuff you see a lot of White marine pearl has always been present I think since the beginning of the drum rap, you know, and uh You see a lot of the glass finishes in the 50s versus the sparkles that kind of came up later Can you explain that glass versus sparkle? Well, it's ground up glass underneath a colored overlay And Well, sometimes when you find a kit you can run your hand across the top of it and it'll be kind of like Like feeling an orange where it's kind of like bumpy Uh ground up glass underneath the colored overlay Yeah, um And I think that's you see it where it almost pokes through the plastic I think that's where you get your like they call them liver spots Like the black mildew underneath the plastic inside the wrap It creates a little opening for uh moisture and whatever, you know Is there a benefit to broken glass because I always I've seen those and and uh I mean is there is one better than the other in your opinion of broken glass finishes And it also is one more like sought after Uh the broken glass, I mean Uh visually, I mean a green sparkle drum set or a blue sparkle drum set it's it's A lot of the glass kits are Very pleasing to the eye And uh, you know sparkle. I'm a big sparkle guy and You know the the glass glitters Tends the materials tends to be a little heavier to work with But you know, it's it's really pretty, you know It's that's the thing is it's it's really it has a certain kind of sparkle to it when light hits it Yeah, it's like a prism. I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly. I have behind me a uh, uh Japanese stencil kit. I think it's a polo. I got a look but um It is a gold sparkle very flat very like, uh, it's a sparkle, but it's it's it's like Uh, there's no real bounce off of it because it's just like a I don't know. It's almost just little like tiny little like I don't know how they do it, but it doesn't have that like shimmer that even may maybe again because it's a cheaper You know sure stencil set, but that it is very much like it's missing something where I guess like you're saying a glass Broken glass, which it's almost too like nowadays like every you know recycling It's kind of eco-friendly to have a broken glass kit because they're probably reusing a bunch of old broken glass You know, I remember the one year that broken glass finish Became real expensive even more than it is, you know already But someone was like oh, there's a glass shortage And I'm like Oh, you know, there's empty pop bottles and empty beer bottles and empty liquor bottles and empty whatever everything was in glass, you know um Well, apparently there was a glass shortage at one point probably Recycling it was probably created the shortage of You know, yeah the process of doing it. I don't know Well, it raises the question of when they're using broken glass. Does it all need to be One color or clear, but I guess they're putting So you said it's broken glass and then they put a colored film over it That's the way I perceived it when I you know, I've torn apart a lot of kits, you know It's just like you get a kit that's too far gone Beyond restoring you end up peeling it and recovering it You know you get to see the guts of the drum set some somewhat Yeah Yeah, all right. So that's broken glass. Obviously we have normal glitter, which I guess what's the I mean Can you describe the difference that you've seen like what would glitter just be a printed like I was saying a printed You know, they would just put that design on a wrap and just go around well a lot of the stuff that's you know, it's it's um If you look at it like you get one right up close to your you can see like a little They're like little discs almost with bends on them Underneath the colored overlay So basically all your sparkles most of your sparkles are silver sparkle with a different colored overlay Sure Then you know, you see some some really oddball finishes But most you know most the standard silver sparkle the champagne sparkles Got to be real expensive because it's it's real copper underneath A clear overlay Yeah, so, you know the price of copper has affected the drum world as well All right, so we got our sparkles, but we're also so let's say we're in the 60s late 50s 60s You also get some pretty far out. I mean, this is an experimental time And you get like in more ways than one yeah, which which again trickles down I think some there there was some drug-induced You know finishes There's a lot of like the and it might be 70s But you know in that era like the tiger the the the tiger swore like things like that where I forget the exact name But man, they're awesome. I mean they're so cool I don't know exactly what your kurdextrum would be the guy to ask what year You know mod orange and stuff actually first hit the First year it was in a catalog. Yeah the mod orange the citrus mod. Yep, and the psych red You know we're kind of like a a more colorful version of black oyster and And blue oyster and be almost impossible to get pink oyster, you know Okay, expand on that a little bit where I mean You said they're impossible to get there out there. Oh, they're out there. Ask Danny Rivera He has a wall That's funny. I mean I guess in my mind too when I hear this it's like I don't know if you're gonna put up all this money. It's safer to buy a nice white marine pearl or You know A different oyster something that's like, you know timeless as opposed to buying something just far out Which now you'd be like boy, I should have bought that rare finish But those you just in your experience you don't come across a lot of them those those kind of more funky finishes Uh, you know the what got me into You know the first time I ever seen A mod orange kid a guy had one of his house And I was like, what is that? I never you know, I a guy that was collecting drums long before me I was like, what is that? And uh, I tried to buy it from him and I I couldn't get it from him You know, it was always one of those things where if you were interested in something he had it He didn't know what kind of price tag to put on it, you know and uh So I tried to get the kit from well then years later a citrus mod kit landed in my lap that um I didn't know what it was. I'd never seen one didn't know what it was I'd seen mod orange knew what it was But it was different And I asked a guy And he was freaking out. He's like that's a citrus mod kit, you know and And I hear the picture of me playing it in some bar And uh, he's like you took that out on a bar and played it and uh But then of course, you know the more you learn about um You know then the psych reds, you know Super vulnerable to the uv rays, you know fade out to You know, they're interesting when they fade out, but they're just not as cool, you know, you know mod orange has always faded um Psych red citrus seems to hold up better than the other two For fading. I don't know but yeah If you just had to guess just so people kind of know this stuff is always interesting What does like a mod orange or citrus or whatever like what are these drum sets run for nowadays? Like if you come across one are these like five thousand dollars or are they like two thousand? I mean, what do people usually pay for these nowadays? Well, they were they were three thousand I don't know how many years ago eight ten years ago. Okay, you know, and it's it's You know the market goes up and down a little bit But you know if you got a downbeat mod orange kit, it could be $5,000 $6,000 you got the you know These guys are gonna everybody keeps pushing the envelope on price on this stuff But yeah, people seem to be paying it. So You know, I guess that's where the market's at these days. Yeah Yeah Yeah, I mean, uh, I guess something's worth what they'll pay for it until it hits a point where it has to kind of go the other way Sure You'll you'll probably know what i'm talking about. I forget the specific details. Wasn't there a Ludwig finish I remember hearing it on an episode about mitch Mitchell where they were They they didn't like how the finish turned out. So they wrapped over it with something else Like a black finish, I believe well, you know You know, like I said, you know some of the The more wild finishes weren't very well received So you'll find like citrus mod kits People probably took resale value or just you know jazz guys always want a black drum set You know, they always seem to want a little black or silver sparkle drum set So they're not going to buy a psychedelic drum set you know and a lot of people just kind of shied away from that and I think they had trouble selling the Citrus mod kits and you start seeing them get wrapped over in black panther That's right. Every once in a while the drum turns up that's Jack Lawton had a great big orchestra drum great big gigantic bass drum a few years back that had black panther over the citrus mod Yeah, it was like a 40 inch bass drum, you know, it was like a mile of citrus mod on this thing Wow, I mean talk about rare. I wonder if peeling it off Works or if you get damaged then from the glue on the citrus mod. I mean well be uh A friend of mine had a floor tom that had You know, jack Lawton is the guy as far as getting the The black panther off of citrus mod, you know, I think it's very it's just It's like anything patience pays off when you're doing something like that You can get the glue off buff the glue off of the And yeah, I would imagine you'd have to put the badge back on Yeah stuff like that, but you know, it's doable Yeah, I um One of those green sea green pearl radio king floor toms And I think it might be the one that Cooper had was painted black at one time and it took jack a couple years to get the paint off but This painstaking work. Yeah, but it took someone five minutes just to Put paint all over it to wreck it. Yeah to wreck it So I want to ask you a little bit about some rogers finishes that come to mind too while we're talking about it It would be the mardi gras and then the the scotty finish Those are really cool. Rogers has some neat ones. Do you come across? That is really cool? I've I've never owned one personally, but the the scottish plaid finish was uh was like a painted finish like the other ducal drums and But yeah, the mardi gras and all that is just they're beautiful kits um The rogers guys will probably like Kick my ass when they see me at the show But it's like unfortunately most of those kits are bread and butter kits, you know, the the drawn brass lugs fall apart Yeah, and great kits, you know, but that those lugs were kind of the uh the the achilles heel of the The rogers drum set my opinion. Well, again, this is my opinion. Yeah, jeff and poe. We're gonna come and find you and oh, yeah Yeah, yeah, those little guys will be like well, you can just buy the new ones now Yeah at 20 a lug. Sure. Yeah, but they're really I just think it's cool that companies do that because there's there's really in that era You look at the catalogs which is so cool to like just see the drum page finish Where in this era you really did see a lot of unique and interesting ones and like Like the scottish uh plaid it's like How many of those could they have sold? I mean really that's but it's so cool But again, it's it's the oh, I love looking at that, but I've got money in my hand I'm gonna buy blue sparkle because it's like it's safe Uh, which I would probably do that. I'm guilty of it, but You know, it's you see people it's almost like nowadays I think it kind of correlates to like people buying those unique boutique brands like SJC and all these other brands where they're really far out finishes Uh that are kind of custom Kind of seems like that back in the day where it's like you're the guy on the street who has the scottish plaid drum set It it takes kind of guts to buy it and play it, you know, yeah Um, I don't think anybody pushed the envelope on finishes more than Slingerland did agreed. Yeah, I think there's probably more Slingerland finishes for that brand than any other single brand had ever had um John Dorn's that guy John Dorn and Matt Barba are the the Slingerland finish guys um, that's You could spend the rest of your life looking for one of everything that Slingerland wise Yeah, and I mean, I think Slingerland was ripped off a lot in many ways with the Japanese stuff But you really do see a lot of direct copies of Japanese kits uh From Slingerland like those tiger Yeah, which are awesome. I know I stewart. I think is a Japanese brand that has a lot of that that you see that Yeah, there is a yellow tiger. Yeah Then you'll see then there's that kind of copper colored Streaky People call it tiger eye or something like that. You see a lot of that. Yeah, you'll see a lot of the same finishes on different brands And the only thing that's different about them is the Whatever tag they have stuck on them usually a lot of that Japanese stuff the one that I was always kind of fond of is the the I don't know if it was star Or what it was but had the It kind of looked like a psych red kind of like a lava something or whatever it was called Yeah, I just thought it was a much more pronounced version of psych red that was Kind of it was always be cool to have a full set of those Yeah, I have one one made in japan kit my collection and that's fantasia pearl Describe it a little bit Kind of like a white marine pearl kit with some black And Splotches and like swirls and stuff like that on it. Um There's a couple different versions of it I've noticed over the years now that I've taken paid attention to it There's you'll see one that's a little different than another one There's about three different brands that I've seen that finish on So, you know, 10 to 1 they all came out of the same place. Anyway, you know Yeah Well, I mean that raises the question too of like, you know, wherever this wrap Was coming from like Were they all even japanese to the american brands where where they all sort of pulling from the same? Uh, I'm sure there was probably a difference in quality in the cheaper japanese brands, but I don't know. I mean, they're really similar finishes. Yeah, what I've noticed in the Japanese, you know, the old 60s. I always call them stencil kits or catalog kits. Um There usually isn't a backing on them Like what we know from wrap usually doesn't have a backing. So it's usually a little thinner and Less durable for one Less material. Um, I don't know the the the japanese sets are like, uh, it's almost like a Dictane to be like, well, I could afford this like this is like this is like 400 bucks. Why not as opposed to that you know, uh It's it's american brand or whatever american made counterpart, which would be 3000 But there's something to be said about buying the real deal, uh, and just forking out the cash Oh, I I asked a guitar guy years ago. I about some Delray teisco guitar or something like that that you used to see for 40 bucks If that, you know years ago and I was like these things are these things really bringing this much money now and he goes. Yeah, well, it's the It's the poor man's You know, it's the poor man's vintage guitar. Yeah, not that they're bad guitars It's just that, you know, I know gear snobs that wouldn't even look at one And I think the drum thing is the same way. It's like you got a cool kit cool finish um The way new drum heads you can make about anything sound good a certain degree and uh It's like you having some cool vintage kit that doesn't cost you three thousand dollars You know, well, and you just raised a good point with the guitar thing It's like it's like, yeah Oh, they wouldn't look at it until someone like let's say like jack white or someone Yeah plays one or that amp that amp jack white plays, you know, those used to be laying all over the place All of a sudden, you know jack whites using one and lucky for me. They tripled in value, you know, or Whatever. Yeah, or Ludwig standards You couldn't give them away years ago club dates and Ludwig standards and trick signs Years ago, they were three hundred dollar drum sets all day long now. They're fifteen hundred dollar two thousand dollar drum sets Those have cool. The Ludwig standards have pretty neat finishes which are kind of unique Those seem like you could only get those finishes on the Ludwig standard Yeah, they had their own set of they had their own set of finishes for the standards. They had all the Uh, the strata finishes and then the mist finishes Then they had the they called it astral was the satin flame But theirs was a different pattern. But yeah, the standards were They always seem to be good and loud when you play them. I don't know if it's that lightweight hardware that's on them sure, but They always prove to be decent kids. They had the you know, less desirable spurs on them and stuff like that, but I've never played one that was really played bad Yeah, and like you said put heads on them. Yeah, put good heads on them you know, I've I've bought hundreds of cheap Japanese drum sets just buying and selling I buy a drum set because it had a Cool symbol with it or something and the prices were reasonable and I I get buy something to get something out of the deal that I wanted them to sell off the rest of it, but more often than not the uh When I buy one I would still have the original heads on it you know like just the tar beat out of them. Yeah, and uh There's like those these things probably didn't sound good when on day one, you know with these heads on them And uh, well, it's probably some beginner kid who are exactly. Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah. Yeah Cool. Well, Randy, let's so all right. So that's 60s 70s. Uh, it's it's a psychedelic time It's pretty far out. I feel like there's a lot of unique stuff those those as you said are valuable and have have Gone way up in value, but I feel like they're They're more more appreciated today than they probably were Maybe back then because you can look back and say, you know, oh, that's a really cool finish It's kind of a a neat thing to collect but As we move forward into the 80s 90s 2000s, which 2000s and on it kind of seems like everyone sort of knows You know, you're you're more in the modern days, but with the 80s and 90s. What did you see? Uh Solid finishes 80s 80s. You couldn't sell a drum set unless it was black Yeah, you know, that's why I think you see so many drum sets that were spray painted over the sparkle You know, you couldn't get a kid to play a sparkle drum set. They uh, they wanted a black drum set Which I will never play. I'll never own and uh, the closest thing to a black drum set is I have is a black galaxy kit Yeah But it's just like solid finish You know a lot of metal bands had with the exception of a few guys that had wild finishes But most of them were always like solid finished drum sets. Yeah solid black solid white white red yellow. Yeah Yeah, um Which there's nothing wrong with it and I feel like the hardware was a lot chunkier then and just would cover the drum more and it was big power toms, which there's a Uh, there's a big following of power toms now I will say that and I've had people talk to me about it and say hey, you got to do a power toms episode which um, I will at some point, but um, you know It is I guess it makes sense though. You don't really see four like rack toms three floor toms in like Uh citrus mod it seems like those those psychedelic finishes fit really well on a nice little four piece Drum set unless you're Ed Cassidy from spirit where he had the gigantic Psych red kit with the big gong bass drums and it's cool. Yeah, the more is more kit Yeah, those though seem less in your experience. What do you think they seem less valuable for an 80s or 90s? solid finish black drum set seems to Maybe get less Of a return on the vow. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you have like Black cortex white cortex any cortex kits unless it's an oddball finish, you know, every once in a while a yellow one I'll turn up and they're Pretty rare Yeah, and butcher block has kind of come into its own past few years. It's just like I remember People would just laugh and walk away from those things years ago and And uh, I like butcher block. I think I've always thought it's awesome. Yeah Is that how does they how do they do that? Is that just like typically a wrap or what is the makeup of butcher block? Well, it's uh, it's like It's like countertop laminate if you you've seen countertops that look just like a butcher block drum set It's a thinner version of that like a fromica and uh, one thing about a cortex drum set as long as it doesn't split from Being frozen or something The stuff usually wore like iron But yeah, the resale on them. It's just the value, you know, it's a lot less than a Some wild finish. I mean someone's gonna play one and it's gonna be really popular and They'll shoot up in price. I mean I first kid I remember Taking lessons on or you know first couple teachers was a butcher block with blue evans heads and I was always like You know as a as a as a nine-year-old I was like this is awesome Um, but you could you could have just filled those drums with jello and they would have sounded the same way Yeah, it was pretty dead probably because he had a bunch of nine-year-olds playing on him. It's just like make it sound better So All right, and then we get into the modern days and I think everyone kind of knows what's happening today But what do you think about drum finishes? Uh as we get, you know To 2000, you know through the 2000s the last couple decades. What's what's your take on it now? Well, it's at a certain point It seemed like Everybody started pushing the envelope on finishes I can't remember if it was um somebody had one that looked like a Uh a picnic tablecloth Like a pacific kid or something like that, but it looked like a pick a picnic tablecloth and I'm like, where can you go from there? But no, you see all these great they've reissued They're on their second reissue for pink oyster. They're on their second reissue for mug orange Um, they did a psych red glass glitter. They did a citrus mug glass glitter They're uh, I think things stagnated for a long time um, they had a lot of you know Boring finishes, you know stain finishes and just you know, like I say kind of like everything evolved into solid color drum sets and they you know, they it really took off they they everybody started doing all these crazy finishes and and different colors and different you know exotic birds eye and Stuff like that, you know, like really nice veneer finishes and stuff too. It's yeah, you know Everybody's keeping up with the jones's on on cool drum finishes now. Yeah You know, I love the oyster finishes a lot and I I wish that like it's almost like if if companies do it now It's almost like an homage to the way it used to be As opposed to presenting like here's an here's our drums in an oyster finish Like for now, like this is new. We're doing this now not not like uh, oh, here's a throwback edition You know, like I wish I wish that was more like Uh popular and readily available to have these but but like as you said, I guess they The creation of that Finish isn't quite what it used to be. Yeah It's like somebody would probably kill me for saying this the uh, you know, like like the oyster finishes The black one's probably the boring of it most boring of them all You know when you compared to blue oyster or pink oyster or something, you know, it's like What it's the most sought after because of what's his name? Yeah, now gary astridge is going to come after you you've got a lot of people to watch out for at these These drum shows now Ringo is responsible for you know, probably Most of the black oyster drum sets that You know, blood would produced, you know, yeah, oh, yeah, it's so funny to look back at old videos of different bands Different bands that played them even Ian Pace had a black oyster kit and all these different guys that had black oyster kits back then yeah The question has been raised on this show a few times of well if they had you know 24 hours a day shifts making drum sets black oyster pearl eight days a week as the Beatles joke goes Uh, where are they all because they're not like, you know, you'd think they'd be like You know, you can't go into a drum store or a pawn shop without running into a black oyster pearl Uh It's like they're not quite as easy to find even though they made a million of them, you know I uh, I you're right You'd think that as many as they of course I used to find blue oyster like crazy I I've sold. I don't know how many blue oyster drums And how many blue oyster kits I own at the moment? Um, it's it's crazy There's kind of a curse out there in my opinion kind of a more of a pet peeve is these guys because they never seen it It's rare And it's like oh the rare blue oyster and I'm like god that stuff Used to find I couldn't give that stuff away at the drum show years ago. Yeah, and uh It's always seemed like you know when I was out picking drum sets. I used to You know, I was buying a drum set a week for a long time years ago like 25 years ago It was just like I was still buying drum sets all the time And it was always like seemed like the disposable instrument for some reason Yeah, it was everybody had one and it just took up too much space for as much use as it saw They were just like they'd almost beg you to take it you know, I bought drum sets for ridiculously low prices just because people You know saw I was they could figure they could sell it, but it was also in their way You know, yeah, keep taking up space for too long. Yeah, they're big They're loud to the non drummer. They're annoying. Maybe a kid didn't want it You're like you said grandpa had it in the attic But you know, that's where you swoop in and save the day and Yeah, I did him a favor by by buying their drum set. Yeah Awesome. Well, randy. This has been really really cool. I'm glad to to talk to you and have you on the show because You have always come very highly recommended I know vincent ward has been on me about getting you on the show And you're just one of those guys from from I haven't been to a ton of shows, but You're a staple of the shows. I mean, you're just you're kind of You you you're always really there and you're very nice and and Happy to help people and I think you're one of the guys too who really supports the younger Generation coming in which is important to keep our instrument, you know alive Well, I try to keep it a hobby. So I'm not there trying to quit my day job. So I'm You know, it's fun. It's a hobby that I've met some of my best friends doing And the drum show I was at the very first drum show Um, there's a farmer that lived in the area around here Had the very first drum show Who was that? Uh, the guy's name was joe hutchinson or I should say the very first what evolved into being the chicago drum show Okay, i'm sure there was maybe some Sure little things before then but as far as the the chicago drum show which was kind of set the bar for drum shows Uh, there was a old farmer started building drums around here Keller shells and stuff and uh, joe hutchinson was his name and he had this little drum show Basically, it was going to showcase these kits. He was building. He was kind of doing some experimental stuff and and uh, of course all the vintage guys show up and They they couldn't care less about that stuff and they were all buying parts and pieces and hoops and rims and stuff like that Rob cook was there selling books and stuff and and uh That's you know, kind of where the show was born right there. Wow. Yeah I mean it you need a place to facilitate everyone being together and you know, it's Not great that he didn't sell his drums that he was making but it really Created I mean people need we need a place to go. Um, which uh, uh, yeah, I get meeting you with the drum show I'll always remember we were walking through when you handed me a heineken when I was with uh Vincent and I was like, oh, yeah, I needed this need a beer Because I don't think I knew you could walk around with a beer and I was like this just got a whole lot better well, you know, it's funny we did the show there a few years and and uh And I was like we had this guy that was helping us in our booth. I was like We sent him out to get some beer. I'm like, I've been to the flea market here a hundred times Because it's the show is only an hour away from me. You used to go to a flea market there that used to be second to none, you know and And but I've sat around drank beer with guys at the flea market. I was like fairgrounds. They had beer at the fair Yeah, I never I didn't and nobody objected. So kind of, you know Put a few beers and somebody and loosen up their wallet, you know No, we just I I try to keep it fun being my buddies get together We have a few beers go to the drum show you get together with your friends that are all into the same thing you're into And you have a couple beers and Have some laughs and some of these people I only get to see unfortunately once a year absolutely and uh That I've become Heartfelt friends with you know, yeah, I look forward to him so much I've I've said it on the show before but I don't think I'll be at the Chicago show this year because there's I'm having a my wife's having a baby like two weeks before and it's just like that's probably not gonna work out but um It is uh, it is so awesome. And it's just such a good community. Um, that uh, you know I'm sure I'll see you're out at the next one or at one of the other ones, but um So, uh, randy's gonna be kind enough to join he mentioned earlier and I said we refer back to it but uh, we're gonna do the patreon bonus episode this week on getting randy's tips on wrapping drum shells because It's not that easy. It's kind of intimidating. Uh, you just you guess you have to do it. I've never done it myself I've been very close to just buying all the stuff and I went. Oh my god, like I said, it's 500 dollars I can't afford that right now, but so randy has told me that he has a kind of an unorthodox way of doing it Which i'm excited to hear about um So if people want to hear that go to drumhistorypodcast.com Patreon button in the top corner and two bucks a month and up and you get to hear these bonus episodes with uh people like randy and all kinds of things so um randy do you want to tell people like Where they can find you are you trying to actively sell drums online anything like that? Or is it just more of a find you at the show kind of deal? Uh, mostly find me at the show. Um, I'm not shy about handing out cards with my phone number on it and um I get calls all the time people looking for specific items I get ambitious once in a while and list some stuff on the marketplace and you know, the all the drum pages on there Yep But uh, you know, i'm trying to not make it a 40 hour a week job Yeah This stuff is hard when you have like regular jobs and other things going on like most of us do I mean, it's like uh, but Somehow we always find time for for drums And you're on facebook obviously that's where i've talked to you most So i'm sure if people want to reach out and say hey, do you have this or whatever? Uh, I guess find randy on there as well. Oh, it's been a great. Yeah Facebook, you know say what you will um It's been a great tool for common interests with different people, you know dog people drum people Unfortunately politics enters into it too much But yeah, it is you get out of it what you put it is what you make of it Like yeah find your same with podcast same with everything on any hobby. Um, but Well randy, we made it happen after all this time and hopefully we'll have a high-nickin again At some point soon, but um, I just want to thank you for coming on and thanks to your wife nancy for helping get it set up Um, so this has been a real pleasure to have you here. Thanks for having me