 Hello, everyone. Hi. Y'all have a good camp? Thanks for coming. Hello. Yeah, this was the first year we did three tracks, so I think it went well. Yeah, yeah, thank you. So thanks to all my co-organizers and volunteers. I want to just get straight to it. We have Matt Mullenweg, one of the founding developers of WordPress here with us. And so we're just gonna dive in. If you have any questions, raise your hand and I'll come to you. Hello. Hello. I am very excited to be back in Portland. It's one of the most amazing communities. It's one of the early, one of the early WordCamp locations, but I think I was last here, was it 2012-ish? So it's been a little while. So thank you for welcoming me back and thank you for saying for this little extra after-hours event. I am very appreciative as well to the organizers for adding this on. So accommodating. And you can tell it's Portland because there's reusable water bottles. But as you know, we're at a very exciting time for WordPress. We have WordPress 5.0 with Gutenberg coming up. We've been working on Gutenberg since last January. So this is a culmination of quite a bit of work. It's also a new approach. We've got the 2019 theme. I don't know if anyone's tried that yet. And yeah, a little bit of everything's changing WordPress. So I'm happy to talk about really anything that you might have on the mind. Think of this as a bit of a preview for WorkCampUS coming up in a few weeks. It has come to you instead of you needing to go do it. I will mention that the Portland WordPress community will have a table at WorkCampUS. So if you are coming, let me know. We need staffers for that table. You have a question? Thanks for breaking the ice. Although I may regret this because it may be one of those questions. And please say your name and everything. I'm Mary Ellen Grace. Nice to see you. Have you here? My question is kind of, okay, I tried out the Gutenberg plug-in and it was a little awkward and weird. And then I turned it off because one of my other plug-ins didn't go with it. So my question is, when this 5.0 comes out and we've got, is it a have-to thing? Do you know what I'm saying? Do I have to use the Gutenberg or can I use the same old way that it's been? It's a really good question. Okay. And first, do you remember the name of that plug-in that didn't work with it? You do? Can you say it? Event calendar. What? Wait, why was that a big deal? Lots of people would use it. Oh, well, let's write that one down to look up. Because they might have fixed it since then. That was really the purpose of why we tried to get really wide distribution of the Gutenberg plug-in prior to 5.0 coming out. The original plan was to get it on 100,000 sites. It's actually now on over 600,000 sites. So we kind of, kind of blew past our goals there. But the point was to find exactly things like you just found. And also for plug-in developers to really see that now that's over, it's actually the fastest growing plug-in in WordPress history is the Gutenberg plug-in. So other plug-in developers, even before the release of 5.0, have been updating things to work with it because so many of their users, because the people who tend to adopt it are kind of the best and brightest, or maybe the bleeding edge users. But when 5.0 comes out on the, hopefully the 19th, you get to choose exactly what happens. Because WordPress is very much about user choice. So you could install the classic editor plug-in today, which is officially supported and created by the WordPress team. And when your site, let's say auto updates to 5.0 on the 19th, nothing will change. You'll keep the exact same editor experience that you might have become accustomed to over the past decade. If you want to get 5.0 ahead of time, you can install the Gutenberg plug-in today. And then when 5.0 comes out, it'll turn off the Gutenberg plug-in, and you'll just use the native Gutenberg functionality. So you can, ahead of the release, kind of choose your own adventure. And both are fully supported and do whatever you're comfortable with. Then maybe like, when you have a little time to tinker around, try out Gutenberg again with the events calendar plug-in. You could just turn off classic editor, try it out. If it doesn't work, turn it back on. We're going to be doing some updating of the classic editor plug-in between now and the release to actually give it a little more fine-grained control. Because right now it's kind of an all or nothing thing. So if you turn it on for your site, it means that no one on your site gets Gutenberg at all. They're all kind of forced into the classic editor. But we're hearing some feedback that people might want some per-user options there. So some users might want to use Gutenberg, some users might not. Or maybe they want to turn it on for different post types or basically a little more customizability. So we're going to be updating the classic editor plug-in to provide some more of that user control. Because like I said at the end of the day, that's what WordPress has always been about, is giving you choices. It's the beauty of being able to modify every single line of code. No problem. Thank you for your question. And for breaking ice. I know it's always a little scary to ask the first question, but I think she did a great job, right? Can we get around to our block? All right, second question. Not so hard. Hi. So this has been a feature where you've kind of... And say your name and everything. Oh, I'm Ben Turner here in Portland, Oregon. So Gutenberg and kind of this larger strategic push for kind of a big new feature in WordPress has meant you've kind of dove back into the every day more. Could you speak to how you've liked that or not liked it or lessons you've learned or things that you like? And yeah, just kind of talk about that a bit. Well, I get my favorite thing in the world is to create great things with cool people. And that's I think why a lot of people are involved in WordPress as well. So it actually has been very refreshing for me to be back closer to a specific product. And it's something that we showed some of the first original mockups for what became Gutenberg, I think in state of the word, 2013. So this has been on my mind for really the better part of a decade because it was so clear. It's been clear for a long time that kind of the document, word document inspired model of WYSIWYG that us and most other editors have used for a long time. Doesn't take advantage of the best of the web. You know, the web is beautiful because you have these elements and it doesn't even fully understand markup, right? Like how many times have we copy and pasted from somewhere else and gotten like some sort of markup super a bunch of spans or random nested divs or anything. My favorite kind of head and future of Gutenberg is you can copy and paste from almost anything and it does beautiful things with it. And we tested it with Google Docs, with Dropbox Paper, with Quip, with Microsoft Word. Everyone's favorite. Try it out. Like create something very complex in any of those and then bring it over. It does really nice stuff. It'll convert to blocks. All the format will be clean of clean semantic HTML. So that's been what's really fun for me. The tough part is of any open source project, there's kind of a crucible of open source development, which can sometimes be more adversarial and sometimes even acrimonious. Working within the same company, like you kind of assume that everyone's rowing in the same direction. In a wide open source ecosystem, some people might actually want the opposite of what you are doing to happen because it might be in their own economic self-interest or for any number of reasons. So it's, I liken it much more to being like a mayor of a city than like the CEO of a company. But yeah, I've done WordPress now for 15 years so I'm pretty used to it. This is, it might seem kind of controversial if you're just coming in, but actually this is not the most controversial thing we've ever brought into WordPress. The last time we had a big forker WordPress was actually when we brought in WYSIWYG the first time. So maybe there's something about messing with the editor that sets people off. The one thing I've observed that's been a little different is, and I don't think I fully appreciated this. I had heard before that Twitter makes people fight more and I never really appreciated it, but I have noticed that a bit more. Where kind of conversations that I don't think would happen on track or GitHub or in our weekly meetings can escalate quickly on Twitter and people kind of read the worst into some things that have been said and that's been kind of a new challenge. I think part of it is that like, at least my Twitter timeline has a lot of stuff going on it and much of it is things going on the world that make me kind of frustrated or unhappy. And then there's like a WordPress tweet in the middle. So it's like democracy is ending. We're losing to all the other countries. This terrible thing is happening. And then there's like a WordPress thing which in a different context isn't that bad. But maybe like I've been riled up by the other stuff that's going on and I find or this is my theory is people might be responding differently than they would if maybe they were on a site like a track ticket and just read 20 things about WordPress and then someone else about WordPress. They might respond differently. That's a theory. I don't have any proof for that. But I've definitely noticed, particularly in these final stages of 5.0, there's been a bit more of that polarization but mostly happening on Twitter. So I've been trying to both engage with it but also like back off of Twitter a little bit. Just maybe good advice for all of us. Have we had one up here? Oh, you have a mic out there already. And then we'll come down to the front. Yeah, I was just going to ask. Um, you... I'll let the camera guy ask. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm Philip Cornwall. I'm from Vancouver for all of us that are across the river. Oh, yeah, sorry. I'm Philip Cornwall. I'm from across the river in Vancouver. So I'm helped represent some of us that are from there. With Gutenberg, obviously there's a lot of uncertainty. So where do you see the tipping point where it'll be people that are more favorable to Gutenberg versus those for the classic editor in the future? Is there any idea of when that might happen? Yeah. Well, I hope, I mean, part of the idea of getting these two plugins, Gutenberg and classic editor out early, was that it could remove uncertainty for people because, I mean, we released them over the summer. So months before the release, three, four months before the release, you were able to kind of choose your path. The hope is really that the 5.0 release day is the most anti-climactic thing ever. Right, because we have over a million sites that have either chosen to not use Gutenberg, which is totally okay. And they're going to stay on the classic editor or have already opted in and been getting these sometimes even weekly updates, the software. And we have hosts like Bluehost that have actually been pre-installing and pre-activating Gutenberg with all of their sites for a few months now. And I was talking to some of their executives the other day and they said I could share this. I was like, so has it changed your support calls? Has there been people asking about it? And it was kind of a... Not really. It was a little bit of a non-event. Which is exactly what we want. When you're updating millions of millions of websites, you want people to maybe come in and it's definitely going to be the muscle memory of knowing how to do things before and learning new interface. That is unavoidable. And Gutenberg does by some measures five or 10 times more than what you could really accomplish in the classic editor. So that also means there's more buttons, there's more blocks. There's like that as part of the idea is we want to kind of open up people's flexibility and creativity to do things they would either need code or a crazy theme to do in the past. And now we're going to open that up to do WordPress's mission, which is to democratize publishing, make it accessible to everyone. So that is what we were hoping for. I do think we can do a better job of communication, marketing materials. We're working on a great video that'll come out with Gutenberg N5.0. We've got the slash Gutenberg on WordPress.org that lets you try it out just in your browser if you don't even want to install the plugin. So we're trying to get things out there. It is one of the things that I think all open source projects and WordPress in particular could be a lot better at. It's kind of the marketing communication side. It's fantastic. It's actually blown my mind that 600,000 sites are having just installed a better active with Gutenberg already. This is the most widely tested code that we're ever putting into release of WordPress. I mean, usually betas get maybe two or three, we're thrilled if we get like 3,000 people on the beta. See Weston here somewhere. How much? Betas never get that much. If it's a really long one, we might get to like 5,000 or 10,000, but that's like over the moon. 600,000 people are running this code. You're like, whew. And we found a lot of bugs from that and got some great feedback. We're pretty close to it being live on WordPress.com, which also opened up to a lot of people and hopefully usually .com is good at finding like browser bugs because people find, use all sorts of random stuff on there. And we'll see what happens. You know, between now 19th, the target date, it's looking good. Like everything's on track. If there's any big block or bugs that come up or anything that really pops up, we have a slip date we already announced of the 26th, so we can push it back one week. And then also when we announced the original schedule, we had a sort of backup dates in January. And so all of those are part of the plan. You don't just make a plan to the front door, you might think of the back door and the side door as well or like, you know, we have a few different things. So each one is a possibility, but the software is pretty ready. And we've committed to, on average over the past six months, we've run a release of Gutenberg every two weeks. And one thing we've said is 5.0 isn't going to stop that. So we're going to do minor updates to 5.0. So 5.01, 5.02, actually every two weeks post a release. So if there's feedback that comes in or the accessibility audit finishes or something like that, we can actually get those improvements to users within a week or two. And which is a big shift from the previous kind of model of WordPress where we typically wouldn't have set states for minor releases. And the major releases would only come out every three or four months if we're good. So that's what we're trying for it. Hopefully that removes some uncertainty at least of the people in the room. But if not, you got me on the line so you can ask questions. And we have one right up here that you've had your hand up for a little while. It's very exciting to see you here. Thank you for coming. You know, I've used, I've launched two sites now with Gutenberg and I have another one in the pipeline. And yes, I have some older sites. I'm going to put the classic editor on because I don't want to mess with them. And why must, no muscle fuss, but it is fun to work with, A, B, there are blocks that can really make your life easier and your sites better. So one I used just recently, if you have Yoast installed, they have added two blocks to the Gutenberg editor. You scroll down to the blocks, you find it. And one of them is an FAQ block that adds schematic SEO or schema to the code so that when people are searching for the questions that this client has in their website, the FAQ questions, Google knows those are FAQ questions and will bring this site up potentially. That's super cool. Yeah, I tested the schema, it's fine. It's perfect. So I think it's great. I'm looking forward to it and change is hard. Thank you so much for sharing that. I appreciate it. Courtney, you pick. I'm Matthew Eppelsheimer, a long time Portland WordPress person recently joined TenUp. Inevitable question, what is your hot take on the unfolding discussions about accessibility in Gutenberg? Accessibility has been core to WordPress from the very beginning. I mean, it's part of why we started was adoption of web standards and accessibility things. I've been a member of the web standards project like for many, many years. We did kind of have some project management fails though in this process where we had a team of volunteers that felt like they were disconnected from the rapid development that was happening with Gutenberg. So definitely there's some things we can do better there. In the future, I think that we need, I don't know if it makes sense to have separate accessibility as a separate kind of process from the core development. Like it really needs to be integrated at every single stage. And we did do a lot as Matias did a big long post on it. We've done a ton of keyboard accessibility stuff. There's ARIA elements on everything. One of their feedbacks was that we did it wrong, but did it the best that we knew how to and it's been in there for a while. It's been over 200 closed issues from really the very beginning. And we also took the opportunity of being in there and having a lot of great developers working on Gutenberg to fix some things that have been poorly accessible in WordPress from the very beginning. So it's not that WordPress is perfectly accessible and all WCAG AA and it's reverting. It's actually that huge swaths of WordPress are inaccessible. So they just might not be considered core paths from the current accessibility team, but I consider them core. So for example, widgets. There's actually a completely parallel interface for widgets to address accessibility concerns. Parts of the Customizer code mirror, which is our code editor for templates, is completely inaccessible. It's actually 100% not even usable with assistive technology. So we have some parts of WordPress that we really need to work on to make better. Actually, one thing I guess I can announce to y'all is that I mentioned code mirror. They were seeking funding at about 75,000 euros behind on funding for the next version. Code mirror is our code editor. The WordPress foundation and automatic has completed all of that funding with the kind of goal of it is now available under the GPL where it was not previously. And the entire goal of the next version of code mirror is to be accessible. So that is something that's coming along. So that's a good step, but there's other parts of WordPress too. The beautiful thing is the work that we invest into Gutenberg and to make it more accessible will start to benefit all these other areas. So places like nav menus and widgets that are fundamentally today inaccessible. When they are replaced by Gutenberg, it will improve that. And so part of the purpose of Gutenberg is essentially flatten all these different concepts in WordPress. And it's not just in core, it's also all the plugins built on top of it. Which again, if you're thinking about true accessibility, you want to think about the holistic user experience for someone not just using core, but also probably using plugins. Like every WordPress in the world does. Plugins would often implement things in their own way. They'd have their own interfaces. It would often be all over the place. Many of them did not pay as much attention to accessibility as the core team already does and will continue to in the future. I already mentioned a few core areas, like menus and widgets, also short codes and any of the tiny MCE kind of special divs or galleries or anything like that. Completely keyboard and accessible, completely. And we've improved all those already. So, but as Gutenberg starts to replace widgets and short codes and all these other things into like this single framework where you can have a consistent interface, a consistent way of going in and out of stuff, whether you're editing just a poster page, like phase one of Gutenberg or in phase two of the entire website. I think that this will open it up to users that have never been able to do some of these tasks before, at least using WordPress. So I'm very, very excited about that. There's also that, let's say, we got everything wrong in 5.0 and it's not great and we're going to make it better, but it's not great at 5.0. Like I mentioned, you can install the classic editor plugin and stay exactly on the baseline experience. So if for either usability or familiarity or some sort of accessible mistake that we made, accessible technology mistake, you can have the current experience out of the box and you can install the classic editor plugin now and nothing will change on November 19th. So I feel like for all those, that kind of combination of things, that for people with accessible needs, November 19th should not change anything about their ability to publish on the web through WordPress. Oh, thank you for the question. It's been a lot of discussion on it. Might not be on. All right, there we go. Thank you. I'm David Greenwald. I'm a developer here in town. Thanks for being here. My question is not about Gutenberg, but I was a journalist for many years and the biggest story in publishing to me over the last decade or so is the rise of things like Facebook and Twitter and these very centralized corporate social media channels that have really taken over publishing or certainly tried to. So my question for you is looking forward, these things have become very controversial because of politics and so on and the centralized control. How do you see the role of WordPress and open source in the next five to 10 years as far as publishing and dealing with these kind of giant companies which have siphoned off a lot of journalism resources and so on? Huh. I thought the not Gutenberg would be easy. I mean, one thing that I hope the past two years or let's call it the past two to five years of the growth of some of these social networks and also the things that have happened in the media landscape has really reminded everyone of is the importance of open source and having your own place on the web. It doesn't solve the problems that have been created by these things, right? So there could be a million more WordPresses. The reason that, say, Facebook is so powerful is it is a central point of distribution and WordPress doesn't provide distribution, right? It provides the website, it provides the publishing. We have never really been part of the distribution of things and there's no plans for core to do that in the future. WordPress.com has a reader and other kind of things built on WordPress do but WordPress core probably won't for the foreseeable future besides the WordPress planet feed that comes in. Fundamentally, there's... I don't even know where to go with this. To the extent that we're aware of the effect that these things have on ourselves, we can change ourselves first but it's very, very difficult. As I said earlier, I feel like Twitter is very polarizing and I like to talk about it on Twitter. There's a ton of good that comes from these networks as well and I think that's the reason that a lot of us are on them and continue to be on them even while we see the bad things happening on the side. Fundamentally, I am a technological optimist and I do believe that in spite of, you know, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory constantly as the news cycle seems to indicate these social networks are doing right now, they are waking up to the problem. I would say have woken up to the problem and are trying their best to fix some of the problems that they created and I know many of the people in these companies and even though I disagree with them philosophically, I take much more of an open source approach to everything. I appreciate how hard they are working and how much time engineering and people they are investing at trying to fix the issues. But I would like us to get to the point where every week there wasn't some newsroom finding something terrible. Twitter or Facebook are doing, like that was so clearly important. But the truth is they also are covering two billion people. So, you know, doing that across every language, across every culture, across everything is a non-trivial problem, as we would say in computer science. But I'm hopeful and I, to give a bright news story, a friend, I did this What's In My Bags post last week and a friend was like, oh, I want on Facebook to find, to find, you know, see if anyone commented on the post on Facebook, because he likes to read all the comments. It's like, and it came across like three fat, fake Matt Mullenwigs. But what am I saying? Fat Matt Mullenwigs. Fake Matt Mullenwigs. So I guess there are a few fake profiles. I didn't realize I was also fake news. And I looked, I was like, ah, I remember a few years ago, like trying to report some stuff to Facebook and it was a huge pain in the butt and nothing ever happened. I was like, hey, do you mind just reporting it and now I'll try to basically use our, her fact that we spend a little money on Facebook to get them to take it down next week or something. And within about an hour, I got three emails saying, hey, a friend had reported a profile. We've reviewed it. It's been taken down. And I didn't talk to anyone or use any influence or anything. And so I was actually pretty impressed at whatever system they had. Something that before I would have had to like bug an executive at Facebook to get fixed happened just using their normal channels from a random friend reporting some random fake pages. So maybe things are getting better. I like to give people reason to be hopeful. You got a two for over there. Hi, Matt. My name is Andrew Taylor, local of Portland as well. And I was curious, you talked about the marketing a little bit and videos and stuff. After WordPress 5.0 is the name Gutenberg going to stick around because I feel like us involved in the community, we've heard it. The people who have installed it, you know, the kind of bleeding edge they're familiar with it. But for everybody else, it's just kind of going to be the editor. And so if I say like, go check out the Gutenberg handbook. Do I now say just go check out the editor handbook, but not if you have class? It's, I can see how it could get really confusing. So I'm just curious your take and kind of on that. That's a good question. You know, sometimes code names take on a life of their own. So I think Gutenberg will still be what we call this project. It'll still be the repo on GitHub. And it's also useful because as you've probably seen, Gutenberg's starting to be adopted by their CMSs. So they need to call it something as well as they adopt it. Partially because it's starting to be adopted by other CMSs, when we do our marketing and appeal to more general purpose users, we just call it the WordPress Editor. This is the new WordPress. Even the distinctions between the editor and the different parts of WordPress to people outside of this room, it's just all WordPress. They can't even figure out the difference between .com and .org. It's one of those things that, so that's how we're going to do the marketing and all the stuff there. If we mentioned Gutenberg, it'll just be in passing. And in the core interface, it's not going to be like Gutenberg Edit. In classic editor, it gives us something to call one version versus the other, right? So for the version, for the options in classic editor, they'll allow you to edit in either classic or Gutenberg. I think we'll probably still call it Gutenberg in there. But that is probably a minority of WordPress users that are going to be exposed to that. And mostly folks who are more advanced or using a plugin or some workflow that have some reason to stay on the old version. As we've already seen, like brand new to WordPress users coming in, they just kind of expect what Gutenberg offers. They'd probably be surprised if they knew it wasn't part of WordPress. Oh, thank you. And how about next door? You got a... Is that Daniel? Hey, we got a 5.0 lead here. Thank you very much. Don't hit me. I'm Daniel. So what's one surprising thing that you've learned as it relates? So taking a step back, WordPress, it's free. It's open source. I can download it and install it. Automatic is a company that makes money. There's lots of other representatives of companies that make money here in the room. So what's one surprising thing that you've learned that's change of thinking as it relates to open source and business ecosystems around open source? You know, one of the things that we'll start emphasizing a lot more next year is 5.0 for the future. Even a project as large and successful as WordPress can have tragedy of the commons effects. And it's because of the way that we've set up the ecosystem, automatic only makes probably 3% of the money. And the WordPress broader ecosystem. But it donates a disproportionate amount of people back to the core. Right now it's at least, I think, 40 people working full time on various core things, including some folks here in this room who work on community aspects and work camps and things like that. So we need the other companies that are making tons of money, actually sometimes two or three times, much as the whole revenue of automatic, to reinvest more of that back into some of the core development. And we had to kind of stop most other stuff to do Gutenberg. We should be able to do and have two or three Gutenberg-sized things going on at any one time. That's what we need to do to be able to be, to create the user experiences that our users are going to want now and in the future. So to be competitive, we need to bring a lot more people together. And I also think that we need to do a much better job about project management. You know, the different teams are pretty disconnected right now. And that's also something I really want to work on post 5.0. They should even make sure that a team's charter is aligned with like the core team's charter. Like are they working, are they running in the same direction or different directions? Is there maybe a way like, I'm not going to use any examples, but maybe it's like a plug-in, a different thing for a team to work on versus like making a policy that's never going to be adopted. So we need to figure out how to reconcile that because there are hundreds and hundreds of volunteers across WordPress.org today. And that's really valuable time. Let's make sure all that time is spent on the most valuable things and in the most valuable places because that's what allows to scale and create the next 15 years of WordPress. Also check out your blog on this. Daniel has a lot of really interesting posts on like open source maintainability, the obligations, freeze and beer, freeze as a mattress, freeze as a puppy. I think we have time for one more question. I would love to hear from someone that's new to WordPress or this is your first word, Kim. And also don't worry, I'll be at the party or whatever's going on afterwards. So you can find me there if you have anything more that you wanted to ask. I'm not new to WordPress but I am new to WordCamp, so I think I qualify. My name is Tyler Havenstry. I'm a developer. I was, perhaps this is a bit too soon to ask, but with the adoption of React for Gutenberg, I can't help but wonder what you foresee happening or what would you like to see happen with WordPress and React in the future. For instance, like the admin UI or even like a headless version of WordPress. Yeah, totally. In 2016, I said, learn JavaScript deeply because the future of the web was JavaScript talking to APIs. In 2017, we brought the rest API in the core. Was that 2016? No, that was 2016, sorry. Yeah, that was 2016. We brought the rest API in the core. And Gutenberg is the first party feature in WordPress, major feature that's built entirely on the rest API. It was actually a lot of work. We had to like, we found some gaps in the API. So I would say very much if you are learning things today, learn JavaScript and imagine that a future WP admin will be 100% JavaScript and talking to the APIs. And there might be other clients as well that talk to the same APIs. We already, you know, other first party clients, we have WordPress mobile apps. I could imagine, like, let's say there's a certain use case for WordPress that we could create an admin 100% dedicated to that. And I don't know what that looks like, but as we make the API as much more robust, that's going to be completely possible. So I'm excited to see that happen. The main thing is like, you know, obviously switching to pure JavaScript interface would break some backwards compatibility. So that's part, a nice thing about Gutenberg is it provides an avenue for basically all plugins to work through. If they're doing anything with publishing on the site, it gives them a way to plug into that that I think will eliminate the need for a lot of what is currently done in custom admin screens. Right? Someone described it to me that they were like, it's like WordPress is going from 2D to 3D. And I was like, that sounds cool, but I have no idea what that means. So what it means is that everything in the old way of editing was kind of on the screen, but with Gutenberg, each block can actually be kind of a launching point, and a block can launch essentially a modal so that you're diving in, you're double clicking on something, and that takes over your interface. So all of a sudden, you haven't left Gutenberg, you're still in context of whatever you were doing before, but maybe you can update settings or do some pretty advanced things with a commerce store or something else. And you can kind of zoom in and out of that into context, out of context, right from where you're editing in the post and pages. The other beautiful thing is that because Gutenberg essentially allows for translation into many different formats, like it can publish to your webpage, it can publish your RSS feed, it can publish AMP, it can publish blocks, can be translated into email for newsletters. Like there's so much that the sort of structured nature of Gutenberg and this manic HTML that it creates and the grammar that's used to parse it can enable for other applications. So it becomes a little bit like a lingua franca that perhaps even cross CMSs. You know, there's now these new cross CMS Gutenberg blocks will be possible. So it's not just WordPress anymore. There might be a JavaScript block that was written for Drupal that you install on your WordPress site. I mean, hot diggity. How would that ever have happened before? And that's why we took two years off. It's why we like have had everyone in the world working on this thing and it's been such a big deal that we've invested so much time and energy into. It's because as I said last year, like we want to be hashtag worth it. Right. We're going to break some backwards compatibility. We are having this new interface which has a lot more buttons and things going on. But what it's going to enable on the other side, and again, this is not the finish line. 5.0 is almost like the starting line. So expect just as much time. Sometimes I say launching is a halfway point. Expect just as much time invested in the Gutenberg after the 5.0 release as before to get it to that place where we don't think it's just better than what we have today. But it's actually like a world-class web-defining experience which is what we want to create and what all of you deserve. So I don't want to be in between you and tasty treats. So thank you so much again to the organizers for making this additional time and thank you to all of y'all for the great questions and being part of WordPress.