 Good evening, thank you. I know it's been a long day How was the day been? How many feel that it was excellent day today? Not so excellent. It was the worst day of my life Nothing. There has to be something between these three Alrighty, let's get started The topic of the discussion is it's more about Are agile COEs are the panacea. So what do we mean by that most of the organizations who are getting into say scaling especially the large organizations There has to be certain initiatives that we spin off so that we can Effectively efficiently manage this whole change, etc. There are a lot of notions associated to it Are they truly delivering the goods? Right, so specifically in the case of agile agile COEs are they delivering the goods for us? Whatever the strategy that we have taken whatever approaches that we have coined for ourselves within our organization The framework that we have developed, etc. Are they helping us and how is it helping us? So what we are going to do is it's panel come fish bowl with group participation. It's not a traditional way We run panels. So what we thought about doing is There will be panel members. So as you can see the panel our panelists are Irvind from society general who heads the agile transformation Rani Maliu from Philips is a senior director there doing you know practicing agile for a long time and has got this Agile thing going for over a decade now Then there is Nagendra who comes from Intel Intel security who's been doing the enterprise agile transformation for last four plus years and Ivan who's who's currently in IBM and who's an author of the book and seen about agile COEs and how it works So those are the imminent panelist that we have who will be seated here. We also have the fifth chair Which is going to be empty The way we want to turn it around is I don't want to be asking those questions and moderate this whole session Unlike the traditional panel discussion that we have. So what we thought we'll do it better or differently this time around Is we'll get the group participation at your tables you work in groups come out with what are your three best three challenges that you have right Top three things that is working well for you in terms of your agile Contributing the overall change and also the last question is our agile COE is necessary at all. Yes and no So you can debate about it. We time box it for 15 minutes That would surface about you know the top questions that we want to have get answered from these panelists, right? So we go through the rounds of that each panelist will have their point of view to share as to how they have Addressed some of these challenges if those challenges have not been addressed So be it if there is somebody in the audience who wants to take a step at you know How they have actually overcome those challenges? You are welcome to come back onto the panel There's the swift chair open for you come back and talk about that specific point as to how you have addressed them Or it could be on a topic that agile COEs have not helped us fair enough when we get to that point You could come back and defend your point saying why it is not contributing etc So let it be more interactive more participation oriented from you so that our takeaways are much better instead of We channelizing the discussion the way we want it to be Right, let's take control of the overall And know what a COEs or who's not in the COE Two of them three. All right. COE abbreviation from point of view center of excellence Large unit ratio large changes that we want to go about doing it. This is the change group that has been set up There's an initiative that is run and these are the experts in the domain and as far as agile concern They are all consisting of agile experts and they contribute to the change across the organization So that's two minutes about what a COE is and how they contribute In your discussions when you have in your 15 box or 15 minute time box go about Arguing or agreeing etc. Etc. Emerge out with three top things that is working Well, three top things that are still the challenges and we'll see what answers we can get from the panelists, right? So panelists will get seated once we finish this round So i'm opening the time box now 15 minutes and after that end of the thing we need to get the affinity map This will be our place where we'll put together all the three questions And we'll take you from there on to get it answered. All right All of you in the back be part of one of the table discussion where you can contribute to All of them in the back if you can please come forward time's up So could we gather all your top three list into this corner here on one side? There'll be challenges on the other side the benefits yes and no Two sections there that's our wall affinity wall you can put it up there Those becomes our cue questions for the panelists Consolidate at your tables and come back here only with your top three challenges and benefits and the yes and no question Are they actually forming an affinity map put it as an affinity map? um here Development Dipper so this is a thing Our perspective correct, uh, coes are considered a process group So this is a different one What is this benefits Individual training Knowledge Okay They help you that part from reality Top down one way yes and no yeah, this is political signal support not outcome there What is that? Difficult to think of one benefit. So then it is a challenge, right? It's a challenge. It's it's not the benefit. All right panelists may request your to be seated here okay so Thank you all So like I mentioned earlier when we started a session feel free to join the panelists there. There's one free chair Anybody who wants to bring your point of view across that's the chair for you. We don't want you all to lose out on that We'll go on to take the challenges first. Let me summarize what has come up here uh on the benefits Lot of individual training impetus helps in building these processes Share best practices and knowledge across the organizations Evaluate the best practices bring them to practice Uh, they help in cost cutting better control over the organizations integrated Functions co-location. I didn't understand that so maybe we can Park it I'm not able to make this sorry, uh, but yeah, we'll park it here So bunch of people say that's no because it's far from reality. It's too top down one way Uh, I think there are a few people who said it's yes. I know. I don't know initially I want it yes and after a period of time. It's no Uh, it's yes because you get political mileage. There's a lot of political support. Hence you want it Uh, there is a lot of misception or misunderstanding. Uh, effectiveness is there and hence it is yes Do you make continuity in agile coe continued support? I don't know the question So it is yes or no. So probably we can't answer that here Expectation boundary making people understand vision of agile from coe. I think those are all the challenges here, which will go here Uh All right, so I think we have more challenges than the benefits The looks of it Uh me playing the devil's advocate. I was always been After my experience with the coe. I think that coes are not warranted. We have better mechanisms But I don't want to you know fuel that discussion. The panelists are there to talk about that So we'll take a question at a time. The biggest one is size of the organization versus scaling You know, how do we do it and that's where the challenge is? I think all of the panelists represent a fairly decent scale already here Do you want to go Rani first on how do you attack that transformation? Not as agile transformation, but we wanted to ensure Whatever we deliver Is of right quality and hit the market on time We are in the business of doing medical devices ultrasound MR x-ray and clinical packages all kinds of medical devices which is regulated all the medical devices are regulated and typically they take Two to three years Development cycle time. This is the market. I am talking about and this initiative started 2014 So I am global program manager for this transformation And I have your 20 member team For transforming this for the entire phillips We have we have started with software products initiative. So to answer the first question How are we addressing the scale? So we are located our software teams are located at 50 locations And our total size is somewhere in a few thousand six thousand people in software products alone So that's the size. I'm talking about across 50 locations So the way we have adopted safe is end to end end to end. We have taken the business groups And the business groups We take product line wise if you are creating your enterprise Imaging archival system Yeah, that's a product line we take and from portfolio products and the team wise again. These are all multi-sited Minimum there would be three sites in us in europe and in india as well as there are many sites in Australia and Others china as well. So these are all the various locations Any product would have minimum three maximum of five sites So the way we have handled this is Every product line will get associated with the dedicated coaches So the coe will be dedicated and we have created a charter And a very clear entry criteria and exit criteria. So we call it as definition of done So when do you Exit out of this any engagement? So, of course, there was one of the discussion I heard How do you ensure the continuity because this is I don't see this as this as a methodology introduction I see this as a complete cultural change and the transformation. So the Coaches we call them coaches and methodologies we associate They are the enablers and they are the people who enable the changes and if I look at my organization It's a cross-functional organization. I have members who are Who have done software and they have complete knowledge. I have members from hr I have members from communications PR so that they can reach the leadership team as well as to the end How do they propagate? So this is the kind of team we have and we stay with the project program three two, I mean we talk it in terms of the The cadence so we will be with them Minimum two to three cadence. So cadence we have defined as three months So and also the dunnus criteria need to be met Till we are sure the business impact is felt and it is sustainable So only then we exit and of course I we have your finance. I mean it's we have got the leadership support and it is fully funded If I can summarize what you were saying it's CoE members are dedicated members working along with these product lines for a certain period of time Which is to the release train that you have at least for three to four two cadences Which is that about three to six months each and till you find the end result or the goal is met You are not going to come out of it Okay, all right Arvind society general Right, so to set the context on what we are doing with respect to gel coe So society general 150 years old bank european bank Right the scale of transformation is around 7 000 people on the it side, right? and i'm i'm open to you know hearing ideas Of implementing an agile transformation without an agile coe as well So i'm not going to sort of furiously defend that agile coe is the only method, but it's worked for for us the reason being that Agile transformation is a bit different than other transformations that we do on the it side Right, so what's different right one is there is a lot of cultural people angle to it besides process and tools And that's where you need to have people Who are not only experts but change agents, so that's that's what agile coe houses resides People who are wearing two hats one One that being of an expert the other being that of a change agent, right? And i'd love to have these changes agents across the organizations, but The way to have consistency and standardization is to house them in an agile coe, right? So for a scale of around 7 000 people, you know, we've been fortunate to have reasonable success using a gel coe The other reason why a gel coe works for us in the scale one was the culture part like I said The other is that we are not an organization that has been born and brought up in an era where Agile is already means was already your mainstream like I said 115th organization a lot of unlearnings to be done and you know and then new learnings to be You know for the entire organization and that's where We don't have people who've been born and brought up in that in that culture, so a lot of Learning and unlearning that needs to be done In our context, right? So that's another reason why why we went for For for the agile transformations like the third thing is obviously the scale We didn't want to do agile in pockets in a few teams here and there in across the globe this transformation that we were trying to do Is across the globe so you know Not big fans of by model. So at some point of time we want the entire organization To be agile in some sort of manner So they may have various degrees of maturity But then you know, we want more more teams to follow agile principles. So that means that Largely the entire organization needs to be transformed and that's where the agile cui type of concept comes in handy All right you want Okay, so I think I can probably safely say that we're running the world's largest agile transformation Probably one of uh, nearly half a million People will be going to agile so IBM is creating coes at the moment and we are creating central coes and geographic coes in different countries. So We actually call them some excited different folks at coe effective, but Are they effective for us? Well, I don't know. We're just creating them now We do have a use the same construct in many different environments, not just agile To mirror what Avin was saying the the fact that this is a cultural transformation More than in the technology transformation is actually quite critical to us and the ability to actually I don't like the word, but I will centralize that That that what is that cultural pattern that we're trying to create? and a coe helps us a coe construct helps us do that and with like 400 400 plus thousand people around the world. It is not something that we can easily Distribute across individual teams and projects all across the world to say well go agile Yeah, it's up to you We need to give them the level of support and the and the guidance to make that cultural change and that mind shift that is necessary to be successful so My position are coes necessary Mostly yes, but I think that we'll get there, but currently if I heard you right you have begun the journey You think coe is the way to go. You still don't know the effectiveness of it. We'll circle back to that But let's place it there Nagendra yes I am agile change agent part of McAfee formerly that we were known as I'm sure it's a lot of you know McAfee or semantic in the anti-warriors world and Intel bought us and now we're Officially known as Intel security this since July 1st. So Much before Intel acquired us. We started practicing agile in small pockets and and what I've seen the trend is that there's a desire to have a consistency There's a desire to have a way of doing things and you know one size fit all kind of a model But overall, I think if I were to hit the question straightforward and it's it's there is a desire out there to create a coe You know in different geos that we are distributed But I'm struggling to set this up and and in all aspects It may be technical may be process It may be product ownership or backlog management in general, right? So if we have some success Not that we don't have any success at all But there is a desire for sure that we need to have a way of doing things and and and that's where it loose the sense and At times it comes across as is coe necessary or not. So I think we will get to that later and more questions come in All right, thank you so I work for scaled agile and The concept of a agile center of excellence Is good. Although I necessarily would not call it an agile center of excellence It doesn't sound like is anything I want to be part of It sounds like some kind of corporate mandate that is being imposed on me That aside if the center of excellence is really a agile transformation group or agile working group That's job is to help teams transition to agile And there is resources and coaching and training that they provide Then I think that could be very helpful. The other thing that a coe needs to do Is to have a senior leader that can crush problems as they arrive Maintain a backlog Of impediments organizational impediments that the teams or programs are now unable to take care of on their own And then you know keep track of those impediments, you know create stories of This may have to be a story but a backlog of things that need to be addressed Then it could be useful, but all too often These things go the wrong way and we're in our group. We were discussing that what is an agile coe? What is its purpose? You know because some of us as we're talking Realizing that we're talking about different things. Are we talking about a community of practice? Are we talking about? Here are the practices that we want you guys to implement and then you're Mandating it on on everyone. So it really depends what it's what its charter is In terms of whether it's useful or not. All right, so which I think comes to our next biggest challenge COEs are pretty much considered as process group policing. They're not much of You know, they are all gurus gurus sitting there, but are they contributing so that's the biggest challenge So is that what you are kind of inputting to as well negative from your thing? Okay Yes, pretty much And every team is different and I don't think I tell these guys and you all experiences on a daily basis and And and these practices work best for some teams, but not necessarily for you know, everybody else, right? But there is a Should there should be a forum where you can you know come in have a common flow of you know Sharing and learning and which prompts for a center of excellence and so be it, right? But but it is you know completely different than the way You know, we usually think about right the ads will manifest or the principles and you know How it coined out and how it got butchered when it got industrialized, right? The essence is completely gone, right? So so I mean it's it's completely different the the shift it has taken from what it was Originally intended to right so so I struggled a lot from the process side of the world and well It worked for me there and it should be working for there. There's already a you know fixed mine So it has to work for you as well, right? So that's where the struggle is On the topic of process, I think they're not mutually exclusive. I think it's possible for a coe to be highly prescriptive Thou shalt use this process in this way and if you're and we will audit What was the example you gave at that table? There's a monthly orders and a checklist Have you done all these things? If not, well hR is going to have a conversation with you But I think it's possible to actually have a coe that isn't the process police where it's well Here's the manifesto. Here's the values and the principles and here's scrum Here's kamban. Here's tdd fdd xp dsdm anything. It's like Feel free use any of these we have coaches and people who are experts who can help you guide you through that journey We want you to be agile not necessarily do agile So I think it's possible and this is something that IBM is doing. It's possible to have an agile coe which is a process enabler rather than the process police So that's the intent, right? So I I know it's like all these things start off with good intent at the organization level Intents don't translate into necessarily good goods, right? What we want to see as benefit I know rani was actually nodding her head. It's something different You kind of get into that topic of saying so is there something specific that you can highlight that how you are doing differently when you say Things are bringing the benefits from a coe point of view Because I mean I don't see them as they are the to me. They are the software practitioners who have been becoming a changing Today, I mean if I We start any program when we start with a deep diagnostic deep dive into the impediments the Business is facing. So that's the starting point So it's for the business and what kind of changes that need to be introduced at the software practice level or system practice level Do I need to Strengthen the ci cd continuous integration and continuous delivery or is are they having issues in terms of The two so they do a complete mapping and we identify what Need to be done in order to achieve what they want to achieve So that's the way the coaches approach the So then then it becomes they are not the process grows. They are not here to impose the practices of agile It's not a corporate initiative. It is the program for their own benefits for them and also Lineification so less of what is necessary that would be that but We are in the regulated industry. So that need to be met So we have quite some challenges that area, but We have been quite successful in that I would say So, um, I mean quickly you did touch upon that Aspect of culture and mindset and that's where your CEOs are bringing that benefit onto the table One or two things we just key things that is they are actually making that culture change culture shift is getting inside some examples on that right so You know coming on you have to question what you asked first and then the second question That perception will always remain that if you form a separate group that will be looked as a you know These guys know any better than us and you know the questioning will happen. So that happens in our case as well, right? uh, so What we try to do a little differently is that in the coa itself, uh, we have a Charter for lack of better words to role model agility, right? So Uh, what what we practice, you know, we preach what we preach is what we practice, right? So that takes away um That brings in a lot of confidence and trust and these guys are practitioners and have done so, right? And the way the coaching happens to the team, right? So any change any model that you pick up As an element whenever you bring up a change you have shock and then you know, you have fear You're frustration and then get you know gets to a level of acceptance and and and and commitment, right? So the coaches in their capacities Uh, you know move the teams, you know in their different coaching styles Of moving teams from that state of frustration to watching it for them or watching it for business And showing them that promised land that you know, this is how the life is going to look like And then that depends on the individual capacity of the coaches But that's emphasized a lot from the coa side that you bring in that that that element in your coaching Right. So I think Broadly, I think we still have challenges. We are still approaching There is a certain amount of tolerance at the leadership management level to what how we perceive and what we perceive Uh, but still challenges do exist It also leads to the other challenge which also talks about I don't have enough empowerment as a coa to be a coa There are organization goals are much different from the coa goals The true capabilities with the coa brings to the table is far different from the ground reality. What is expected? How are you dealing with that as as an aspect when you even put out a coa together? What's the core competency that you expect a coa member to have to propagate that change? Is there any specifics that you have done to make that happen? right, so If you're asking for competencies of a person any person in coa, I alluded to a few I said You know that person has to be an expert and has practiced those things in the past He's not seen as somebody who has just theory knowledge and then is imparting that knowledge So, you know being an expert having been there done that right to being a change agent Which takes more than being a practitioner. So a lot of people can be practitioners But you know where the emotional quotient and the change management aspect comes into picture So at least the people that we hire we make sure that those people are not only practitioners But are competent enough change agents, right? So those are the two things that I can Definitely mention in terms of the competencies that we look for people who are in the agil coa Again that view have you actually brought in something specific? Aspiration level at least is there but it is not far from the reality still exactly. That's my challenge, right as I speak and and you know There has to be enough of learn and share mindset when they come into the coa model, right? Else it just becomes you know one way No information flow and and there's expectation for there has to be a practice or a pattern established and everybody else just go on Apply it, right? So so that sharing part is where I see not enough happening There is learning parts if you set the agenda that this is what we're going to talk about Right and a lot of people show up and oh, okay There is a agile fluency model that diana larson talks about and let's go let's go and learn about it But but but that's where it kind of you know, grindles down after that. So, okay, we did apply it Okay, so it's what is learning out of it. So can we come back and share to the community? That's not quite necessarily quite there yet That's the challenge if that happens more frequently Believe me and we will have a solution on our own and coa will naturally grow and do the Intent what it is meant for So there's still a lot of ifs Question is do we need a coa? I think there are a bunch of people have said no So I'll leave it to the audience if you are how many of you are saying no here. You don't require a coa Okay So you're saying no and how are you going to deal with it? We've heard the panelists. They've spoken about it They are pro coa. They are empowering people. They are challenges if you are saying do it any any Answers for that. How have you dealt with it? Sure? You want to come up here? Hey Timeboxing we have much of people who want to come sure So one way to approach is a community of practice. Okay, which is loosely connected volunteer based Participation we are knowledge. It is open for knowledge sharing Learning from each other sharing Failures as well as successes. It is not top down not driven by top Management's commands or their objectives, but it is more of people who are at the front Really connected with delivering value these people learning and sharing back their Their successes and failures. I think that one way we have seen are working very well and community of practice could actually Also spend not only from agile specific but also from engineering practices and focused on other learning areas as well So you're saying more about virtual groups making this community of practice and him propagate the change And they could very well meet in person as well. But people who are voluntarily joining and Sharing any any any other solution people have one comment on the community of practice Great ideas. I love them community practice of wonderful powerful things I gave a paper on that a couple of years ago in the u.s. If anyone wants a A template charter for an agile community of practice to see me after this. I can give you a link and you can download one All right any other way One more point on you know, since we've experienced the community practices as well. So what worked for us is that During the transformation we take help of the coe But for sustenance, right? So I'm not saying that the coe should there be there forever It should be during the transformation and then when you You know pass on the baton to the teams. That's where the community practices Helps in knowledge sharing and you know evolving further. Okay, great 30 seconds. So whose job in the organization is to create change? Is it the management job or is it some separate unit there? We have organization full of managers. They should drive the change not any separate unit Okay Anybody else they should Should aren't they Aren't they driving so you want to make managers drive this change instead of creating one more entity? Yes, like this kind of a lean changes that you have there the key thing is teach the managers put the manager in driver's seat Let the manager do the work and instead of just demanding work from people Awesome So as as I mentioned, it's again, it's a maturity curve any transformation You start with the focus team who would be doing it and then you I mean again This is not going to be a organization who is going to get involved forever Then you get into a sustenance phase with the co piece and then the managers So it's a part of the maturity curve. So most of us are still in the initial Curve in the transformation. They're definitely we need co is So ready what I was going to say was it feels like we're mixing a couple of things together You know one of them is a community of practice And that's where passionate people get together Who want to learn from each other? So it might be a community of practice of scrum masters or product owners Or release training engineers or whatever it might be And then there's a group Who helps? roll out the transformation and I definitely agree with the gentleman who said that managers Are the people who need to help drive the change? But they need to become lean agile managers first. So they have to learn First and then Everyone on the team is responsible for the transformation They have to take ownership as well that they actually want to make it happen But i'm really struggling with us mixing a center of excellence Which maybe his mission is to drive the transformation or help support the transformation I should say and then a community of practice which has a completely different purpose I totally agree so community of practice and you actually decouple them fair enough But I think we are still struggling to find what is that sweet spot for the coe We are still saying We want to get the managers there and do it But how are we getting these managers because unless we crack this nut managers are going to be there that says our middle layer But they don't have to be part of the coe You know well then the credibility of the coe is lost So one of the struggles at least in my experience which has happened is there is a big perception difference But it could be perception, but then the reality is also that Coes don't bring enough to the table. That was one of the challenge which is out there and how do we enable this This enabling group So am I going to create monsters of them and build on coes on top of coes? And then the other question is when you talk about culture and things like that There are already several coes existing in terms of their technology layers, etc, etc Shouldn't co agile be a fabric woven into them as opposed to this sitting as a tower in itself as a specialization And who does not connect with any of the technology because that's where the divide happens So it's easy to get started on a smaller footprint, but when you get into Layering it out across and dissect each of these challenges, especially on the cultural boundaries and things like that How are we going to do it has anybody experienced any different way of attacking this problem? Well, while she's coming up, I'd also point out that Agile CEO is aren't necessarily about a technical transformation. There's agile HR finance marketing. So the this is an enterprise Global or organizational transformation. So it's if it's if it was related to one specific group function That's that's one thing, but that's an enterprise global level. It is a little bit different Yeah, yeah, I had the agile CEO for Ford in Asia Pacific See I agree with whatever they have said and our scale is very big. We have more than 10,000 IT people and 40% is in Asia Pacific So when we started our agile journey, we needed the agile coe But then we are getting into a place where What we talked about we are imbibing all these best practices I mean if you can call them as best practices into our other center of excellences Like Java center of excellence which focuses on the technical practices They are coming up to speed now and we are getting into our quality center of excellence They are getting into speed now and our project management expertise. They are getting into speed now we cannot We we don't want to have the agile coe forever because People think that we will and we are the agile gurus And we have to have an answer for every single problem the company has We will not be able to have We want to bring up The entire organization and probably sustain it with the co piece and co eyes For different practices not only agile practices that is not going to that alone is not going to solve a problem One quick comment on this You know I for some reason one part The ladies mentioned about you know the coe the the need for existence for the long term versus the short term Is I struggle a bit there because there's always a churn Right, there is fresh people coming in. You know people who are experts. They're leaving moving on to different organizations Taking up a new role. There's always this churn happening. I mean, that's the ground reality, right? So so to me, you know Center of excellence again, how you look at it. What is that you're going to go in there for what's in it for me, right? So I go get the gown and then you know automatically I become an expert and apply it back to your team Well, I mean that's again a charter and an expectation How you you know do a better job in setting that expectation is very important, right? But in general if there is a tendency to have a coe I believe You know, especially an organization of that large as ford or intel security I come from and many of us were representing in the panel, right? That is always in a churn in there. So there is a need for a coe is what I would comment on Okay, anybody else has found figured out a solution for this Any differently than what we have discussed here? Um, I'll take another question here. We've run out of the challenge at the top at least One of the things what is expected out of a coe is to also provide bodies, right? Like what most of the time the demand happens when you're scaling when you're transforming I also expect a lot of the delivery units would come and say you give me the capacity or the capability along with capability the capacity so that I can endure this change I can't go and find it figure this out from the market or it is going to take a longer time Has anybody experienced it? How exactly have you dealt with it if you have dealt if you had someone to tell That's probably a major part to a service organization like IBM is is finding those Absolute the best of the best and having them available and it Project over here project over there this country that country who may not have the capability in country Or certainly within the organization within the country and the coa can provide this isn't the transformational coe This is like you say and an ongoing theory can provide those those skills and capabilities and do a sort of a resource management role There's a care to be taken that is not another PMO But I think there's definitely a place especially in service organizations for those sort of functions I would look at it completely differently. I would say that's most welcome because I this is an opportunity To rotate people around because in my coe currently I have business people who have come in as coaches And also coaches can go as business people. So that's a natural transition I would see that and today I completely encourage that so that if if we want to have Process I mean the practices to be much more I wouldn't call it standardized, but much more aligned Then this is the best way of dealing with businesses That's the way So so to me it's like if People are coming in voluntarily into the coe you have created that space for them And that's certainly welcome but How does people perceive in a larger organization? How would they see their career path being part of a coe? And you know, how have you you know even established their career aspirations of being a coe? As part of our transformation, this is one of the earlier activities we have done because as I said, it's a transformation I have multi multi disciplinary team in that we have had a huge hr work stream with global hr working on Identifying the agile roles what their Carrier lattice would be as well as including the coaches not only coaches, but the scrum master rte's POs what would their carrier lattice would be? So that has been published along with the job description and everything So that really helps people to give the transparency and also The visibility this role gets because often I mean you are into a product unit You get to know only that product deeper and deeper for a product owner If you have the capability become to become a change agent You have the opportunity to see many more Products and that would enhance the person knowledge and when he he or she goes back into the businesses So that's how we have positioned and that's what we are encouraging the company anybody else Like pitfall what we observed is Say for example, you start with one drive say for example a wave You know one for hundred people and other things then you identify champions who are like the equivalent of coe Then the other Wave you identify the problem what happens is when you try to separate them out as that So the perception of what it goes is unless until those kind of things are very well established, right? Very few organizations actually make that homework first Be prepared and then jump into the transformation many people jump And then figure out that's an impediment and you know, it cannot work out So in those cases actually it is very uh catastrophic Where I think what is that I don't have and you have as a champion and that creates the divide between the people who are potential change agents and Their aspiration towards Moving faster would have been slowed down. So that's the practical experience. I have been okay So if I can quickly summarize this whole thing, I think there is a need of agile coes We agree to it. There is a constant turn. I think we need to keep that But empower them in the right way Figure out what things you do and this is for the long haul And identify the right goals and aspiration leads Put them into perspective and then you would be able to go through it as opposed to Diving in and having calling it as connotating a coe for the sake of coe with no empowerment and goals associated It's not it's going to be catastrophic. Would that be a fair assessment of that? Awesome. So with that, I think we will close this panel discussion Thank you very much for the panelists and you for participating. This is awesome. Thank you very much