 I've been playing around with permaculture design for about 15 odd years and I've really found the value of having a process. Now one of the wonderful things about permaculture is that it tends to get quite excited. Anyone here excited about permaculture? So we go home and say, must do something! Many of those things are really good, like planting trees. There's a wonderful group of people that came to do a course with us and they planted some trees. But of course the danger is that we start putting things in the wrong place. And we come back later and we go, I really wish I planted that tree somewhere else because it doesn't look very happy there and now I can see why. So one of my roles I think as a permaculture teacher, whatever I am, is to help get us to slow down a little. To learn the lessons of the slugs and snails who we're seeing a lot of at the moment. So here's something to avoid. Bill Mollison calls type 1 errors. So this is Ecclesbourne Watch House in Hastings. When I'm looking at it I'm thinking, I live on quite an unstable coastline and I've been to Linmouth. And I'm looking at that going, anyway it got washed away inevitably because of its placement very close to the sea but at the bottom of that steep valley. So for me permaculture is about not just learning a recipe because there is no recipe for permaculture. Wherever you are permaculture is different. It's about becoming a permaculture chef hence the hat. And to be able to open anybody's kitchen cupboard effectively and be able to create something, a delicious meal from that thing. And it's the same whenever we go into social landscapes or onto physical landscapes that we can start to look around, see what's there, make some judgments about that and create designs that fit beautifully in that place. And one of our basic rules of effective design is to reduce our inputs over time so we're getting more outward putting less in. And that comes back to long term observation. So don't panic, you're already a designer. Whenever you make a meal you're doing a design. It's a design you do very regularly probably. And so you've probably got pretty good at making lasagna or apple crumble or whatever your perfect meal is that you like to make for people. But that's because you've had lots of goes at it. And the key thing with permaculture is there are some things we do quite often like that which we're getting pretty good at. And there are some things that we don't do very often like making gardens or building houses or changing jobs or creating new careers. And it's good to have a process to slow us down and to get us thinking through that. And there's some very simple processes and they often come back to this action learning cycle which is all about spending time observing, thinking about what we've seen, coming up with a strategy or a design and then having a go at it. The important thing about permaculture is that we implement our ideas because that's when we get feedback from the real world about what we're doing, whether it's any good or not. And it's okay to make mistakes because the mistakes that we make are the things that we learn most from. And our schools tend to make us be ashamed of mistakes but actually we should celebrate them. And here's one of the frameworks that we might look at. This is Survey, Analysis, Design, Implement, Maintain. It's the same thing, Survey, Observe, Analysis, Thinking, Design, Implementation and so on and so forth. So we've got to get good at observing and I love this picture because I didn't take it but I looked afterwards and thought that's perfect. It looks like a bunch of people worshipping a sacrifice, the spear in the back of the neck, can you see that? What it is is the Nature Awareness course that I taught with Mickey here, who's a great Nature Awareness teacher in Sweden. And this is not to put you off the Nature Awareness course we're doing in Devon in August. But this is something he calls dog nose, where you just literally get your face down there and actually smell the ground. And of course Mickey's particularly good at those, just right in there. We've got to get good at understanding patterns. What's going on? Why do rivers behave like this? Why do trees grow in the shapes they do? And that's a really kind of detailed and complex thing that we can go down many levels. So I'm just going to point at it now and move on. And we need to think in systems. So we're very good at seeing the individual things, we're very good at seeing the wolves and the elk and the trees and the rivers and so on. We're not so good at seeing the relationships between those things. So in the Elliston Park when they exterminated the wolves they had no idea of the consequences of what would happen, which was basically the elk numbers got really out of hand and they ate all the young trees and the forest started dying because the wolves were gone. So we're going to get good at seeing the bigger picture. And some of these situations create spirals of feedback. So each time you go around things get worse, the situation gets worse. And eventually this is one that occurs in many parts of the world where growing human population in rural areas leads to deforestation and so on and so forth. And then ultimately people leave, they go to the cities, which is even more unsustainable. So we can identify, we can look at these pictures and then start to look at where we can intervene. How can we turn that around to make it a positive spiral? It's good to think about, start to notice these relationships. So in my garden I noticed the salad that I planted over here was getting quite heavily eaten, whereas the salad that was next to the herbs, this one here, hardly got touched at all. I thought that's interesting. Maybe nothing to do with it but it was interesting. So the first thing we need to do is observe the landscape and this could be in a physical way, like Darren Doherty here with his laser level looking at where the contours are in the landscape and mapping them out. It might be looking at the people that are in the particular social landscape you're looking at and what their skills are and what their interactions are. With physical maps or physical landscapes or any landscapes really, it's good to have a map. The maps we're most familiar with look like this and we can make use of those maps, existing maps, blow them up using different techniques. Again, I'm not going to get into all the detail of that but just say that it's good to have skills to make maps but it's also good to be able to make use of ones that other people have already created. It's making use of an existing resource. There's a few little DIY mapping tools that we can use in permaculture. The simplest ones are the A-frame and the Bunyip. Anyone use an A-frame or a Bunyip? Quite fun, yeah? The good thing about the A-frame is that you literally go into a jungle, cut three bits of wood, get a vine, stick a rock on the end and you can start working out points of equal level. I'm not going to describe it here but it's a very simple tool for finding contour and contour is very important in permaculture because if we're wanting to move water around or hold water in the landscape we need to know that kind of information. Here's a Bunyip water level which is just basically a hose that you fill with water. The water is always going to be the same height in the pipes so as you move the poles up and down the slope you can see how that water level changes and measure distances and height. Or you can get quite technical. Have you got GPS? Anyone got a GPS? I don't. I am a little concerned that when the satellites all get blown out by a solar flare they won't work very well but who knows. Digital cameras are in everything and particularly if you go and do a survey somewhere other than where you are just take lots and lots of photographs because the things that you don't notice and you don't measure at the time you can look at sight lines and figure out exactly where exactly was that tree oh it's to the left of that one if you look from here and so on. Of course good old measuring tape although we have a body that can measure things. We used to do this didn't we? Use feet, pace things around. Once you are familiar with your pacing and what your reach is for instance then you can start measuring things with your body and you always carry that around with you. We can locate things using simple maths or maybe not so simple for some of us but if you can do this it is quite handy. I am not going to explain it now. We will take the rest of the afternoon. Yes the value of photographs can help you identify where things are with sight lines and then what we want to do is just basically come up with a map so our base map has the things on that we consider to be fixed so in this room it would be the walls and the windows and the doors and all the chairs we wouldn't map on the base map because we could move those around. So the things that are considered to be fixed are the things that go on your base map so they can be quite sparse like this. So here is a field map I made for a garden I had and this is my base map. There is lots of space on it and that's the space in which I am designing either inside or outside so it defines the space, the boundaries. So then we want to get out and see what's in that space. What else is going on there? A nice easy tool to use for this is paste which is plants, animals, love them or hate them depending on whether you have nut trees, structures, tools and events. It doesn't really matter whether things fit in, is it a structure or a tool? The thing is to think about what plants have we got, what plants and trees and of course fungi which are also really important and we don't, they are not animals, they are not plants, they fit somewhere in between so maybe you put a silent F faced, maybe it's not silent but you can mop up a lot of information quickly by just going out what structures do we have on the landscape, what events happen here, they might be natural events, they might be events involving people like this one here where we used to celebrate the different quarters and cross quarters through the year to link everyone to the seasons. What's the access onto the site? What kind of condition are those accesses in? Is there a bridge coming in? Is it a good bridge or is it a fragile bridge? I've just chosen some funny pictures for some of these. Zoning, so what's the, how is the space being used? What's different areas of being used? How is the zoning, how good is the zoning? Maybe people are walking a long way. There's a lovely example of a woman called Joti who used to be at Tinker's bubble and it took her four hours every day to milk the cows and she, they bought some land, moved to another place and she set up the cows, she had very close to the house and now it takes her half an hour a day to milk the cows simply because of where cows are. And design lines, this is from one of my favourite books, Crap Cycle Lanes, anyone got a copy? It's very good. And you kind of look at that and at first you just go, yeah, I've seen plenty of those around. And then you start saying, but where's the fence? There's no fence. And of course cyclists just come along and they go, I'm not going round, I'll just go round it. And this is the kind of, the clues in the landscape that tell you the things that happen even though you're not there to see them happen but who's the back wheel of a bicycle just disappearing off the corner there. And thinking about the energy coming into the site. So this is your wind and your sun and water and so on and so forth. And again, I'm not going to get into the fine details of that but it's just something we need to think about that a site, we tend to look at a site in isolation rather than the interactions with the site, the context as was mentioned earlier on this morning. So another way that digital photography is really handy is that you can just kind of lean out of your window on a sunny day, different times of the year and just photograph where the shade is. And then you can come back in six months time when you can't remember exactly where it was and just look and even digital photographs even give you a date on the file. And this is where at one point the place I used to live and that was the difference between March and November. So November is getting, shadow is getting longer into December and then coming back. So this is quite a quick transition across the garden. And this is really useful when you're thinking in the winter in November or December, where am I going to plant my seeds? Now, when it's wet and windy and cold and snowing and so on we tend to snuggle up indoors, sit down in front of the tally or whatever but actually that's when we can learn most about the landscape. It's where we learn about where the water comes off our gutters and doesn't go where it's supposed to and it overflows over here or the snow is melting on the roof here because there's not good insulation and the heat's just melting it from inside the house. This is a fantastic frost pocket at the back of one of the places I teach and of course where animals move through the sides as well. Humans leave a lot of evidence of their trace usually litter and so on and so forth. Animals tend to be a bit more subtle but they leave tracks and they're much easier to see in the snow although of course you can go and find them in mud and so on. This is a lovely example of a microclimate so this is an apricot tree that we put out at the back of our house and this is the very reason that it's there is frost, declining frost, no frost, water but, thermal mass. This is a lovely example of a thermal camera of a bath full of water inside a greenhouse. It just shows you how much warmth that water holds. That can make all the difference for plants going around here so that's a nice microclimate and that's an opportunity to do something and we can look at microclimates both in terms of the climate the physical weather kind of thing but also in terms of opportunities to do things around people. Maybe the Olympics is a microclimate to do something, I don't know. Now in a physical landscape we also need to think about soil and water. So we'll get out there look at what's growing on the soil first look at what's living there because those things tell us about the soil but also it's useful occasionally to dig. Pymigol tree isn't completely no dig so get in there, see what's going on and we can use simple methods like the jar test we basically put a soil sample in, shake it up make sure it's in fine particles and then just watch it settle out and the sand will fall to the bottom quickly and then over the next half an hour or so the silt will deposit on top of that and the clay in the water will suspend maybe even for a couple of weeks or more and this allows you to just get a sense of proportion of the different mineral fractions in the soil and this is important in terms of how you interact with the soil and what you can do with it. So limiting factors limiting factors are an important approach to design so in this case the key limiting factors well, there they are over here also very good at moving seeds around see there, birdock cases but a friend of mine bought this land this was all being grazed by these sheep and ffentished it off from within a couple of months it was already regenerating and then this is an example of what could happen so having identified the sheep of the limiting factor removing them Chris Dixon here, him and his wife Lynn bought some land in north Wales and they identified that there was too much for them to do straight away so they focused on their main dwelling area their zone 1 and 2 and they ffentzed this off, they just took the sheep off and 15 years later they have woodland the seed bank is already in the soil nature wants to succeed to the next level it's also worth thinking about the different utilities and resources on site so you can get maps from utility companies also can be quite useful for you to get a sense of the landscape as well and what's going on and they're quite keen for you not to dig up their water pipes and their gas mains so if you suggest you might be doing some digging you can get yourself a map and things like there's a recycling place near where I used to live so this is a bath that was turned back into a pond or turned into a pond and so on and a lot of the plants from this garden came from other people so I'm gifting them so with all that information for myself I've got my base map and I start putting it on sheets of tracing paper you could do this on a computer if you're into computers it's savvy with that I kind of like the tracing paper approach and so for me with this caravan I was looking okay where's my primary desire line this is the main farm area I would come in and out here most often there's a secondary desire line out to the shed where my bicycle was and a few gardening tools and if I picked up my bicycle then the quickest way from there to here was this way and then I would reverse that when I came back in and then my zoning is based around the desire lines where I spend most of my time so my zone 1 is in this area zone 2 around the back and then the zone 3 where I give a bit less attention to and then zone 5 well this shed was a bit wild in places so and so it all kind of maps out there really circles like you often see on those kind of idealised zoning maps and of course we want to find out what the design is about we design because some human somewhere has a purpose to do something in a particular space and it might be you that has decided you want to do something it might be other clients and other clients can be quite challenging in the sense that it might be that you go into a space you think something is a good idea and then they say they want something else and you're like ooh so you have to kind of work with that edge and it's an interesting edge it's a whole bunch of things you might ask them I'm not going to get into those and if you got large groups of people then you might also look to use particular tools to gather all those ideas that those groups have so it might be a community like a deliberate community or it might literally be a whole community of people like a neighbourhood or something and there's a whole bunch of different approaches that you can take here which are all well documented in other places and it may well be that if you're involved in that process it would be good to bring somebody in from the outside because to have your own ideas and be a facilitator it's a funny edge that doesn't really go very well together so we gather all our information in and we start thinking about how do we put that together and so this is the analysis phase and I always like to start with what's the key thing that we're trying to achieve here what's the key function so for instance in the example of if you decided you need a windbreak probably because you have a function of maybe food production down here and you need a windbreak in order to support that process food production then we start looking at what different systems can we use to create a windbreak and then we start looking at the different elements that might go into those things so we start off with the needs and wants of the clients so it might be things like food production but we're also thinking about what is the landscape what does the land need in order for these things to be done well that supports the land so there might be things like stabilising the soil if you're on a slope improving the soil if the soil is poor or irrigation or a windbreak for instance for pollination so one of the things that can help me with making decisions and of course the three ethics of permaculture are a good starting point they like the tripod I've gone with four there haven't I tripod but we can use to just tick some things off it's like actually that's not very maybe not that one and then there's things like footprint so we might think of hey I like a straw bale house but actually the nearest straw bale is like 100 miles away because we don't grow them don't grow cereals here now the ultimate high impact structure is probably stonehenge or maybe the pyramids and we remember those things and they're almost like I have this so much power that I can create this really high impact thing and of course a lot of the what we see around us here London is full of these massive great buildings that are just saying look I have the ability to do this so permaculture is kind of the other way around and then a bunch of other things which I won't talk about now but you come across on permaculture courses and different permaculture books and so on and of course the principles and the key ones being principles of ecology so studying nature permaculture is all about how does nature do things because nature's been around for a very long time life has been around for a long time and what we see around us in terms of life is the pinnacle of evolution you know here we are it's us and everything we see around us and so you know we can't be all bad and so to study how nature works and the different principles of nature and using those to design what we do and there's various different feels like biomimicry and so on that coming forward now as well around those ideas and then principles of attitude so things like the solution is within the problem is a different way of writing one that I'm familiar with and this is a woman called Colleen Stevenson who makes these beautiful big charts that she draws really big and she does open space facilitation and records it all so everybody has their own version of these principles but it doesn't matter what they are as long as they work for you a few of those principles so working with nature life is continuously out there making more life and so if we just look at the landscape and say what is it I want to do what already wants to do this so I don't have to do it here a lovely friend of ours Pat makes use of gravity in irrigating her raised bed system she basically has water coming down into a stream she puts it into a pond and then in the evening the water comes down and sits in the garden overnight and then the next level of this system is she has ducks that come into the garden and because these raised beds the slugs and snails all come to the surface because they don't want to drown and the ducks go in and just pick them off this is what permaculture is about is creating these kind of integrated systems where Pat waters this massive great vegetable garden by just basically pulling a bucket out of the bung operating a slew skate a couple of times a day and if you had to do that with a hose or a watering can it would just take you forever so catch and store energy so the sun the ultimate source of power and all of that energy will come through whatever system you're in your people based system or your piece of land pretty much everything is solar energy if it's rain or water flowing through the landscape if it was rain once that was solar energy stored in clouds into lakes in the mountains and that flows through your side and then goes to the sink somewhere else it leaves and as designers what we're trying to do is look at what nature already does is to capture that energy in the site and store it in something store it in ponds or trees or animals whatever it is so when we start thinking about how can we do this we can also cycle some of that energy back and create more storages so permaculture is about keeping it in the place but knowing that flow is an important part of nature and that there is always flow but we can create cycles and create more storages and this is what makes systems resilient stucking functions so thinking about all the different things we're trying to achieve this was a salad I made which ended up becoming some photographs which I sold which was a bit bizarre and won a permaculture art competition which won me a jug that leaked looks very nice doesn't hold water I hope that's not like permaculture looks very nice doesn't hold water no no really isn't so looking at the redundancy redundancy is one of those words that we're a bit scared of it's like all that means losing your job but actually in nature redundancy is about the fact that there's so many different things all doing the same job that if somebody's not performing so well in a particular year like we don't have many apples on our apple trees but it's okay because we've got lots of rambles coming along lots of taberies and raspberries and so on so in this system this is Caroline's place at Brookend which is a straw bell house and she has solar and winds usually you've got one of one of those on the go diversity of course is very important in nature and for this Nepali farmer all of these different beans represent a different opportunity to grow a crop in a particular little microclimate and over here this is one of Chris Evans poly veg systems and this just makes it really confusing really difficult for what we call pests, insects to come along cabbage whites I haven't seen many of them this year to come along and they like to land on a few brassicas before they start laying eggs because they want to know that there's a food source for their casplers and kind of land on this one and then they go looking and there's all these confusing shapes and smells and they just go somewhere else and then looking at opportunities so niches so this is forest gardening systems this is actually Robert Hart's forest garden and in small spaces as well we can still make use of stacking so forest gardens make use of stacking in different layers and this is growing potatoes vertically again thinking vertically not just horizontally so then we need to kind of make decisions where things should go once we've made some decisions about what we want where do things go and this is a little modelling technique I use to help me make decisions about where things could go just like write them on little bits of paper they don't have to look pretty or you can even write some stones and a stick and draw lines in the dirt and this is a road and here's some buildings and let's make some decisions and lots of people can get around that and interact with that model so in permaculture going back to that graph that we had earlier as inputs decline, outputs increase we need to think about the best places to put things in the landscape so this is an obvious place where water starts to slow down fast down these slopes and then as the slope shallows out that fast moving water starts to drop the material it's carrying like soil and seeds and so on and this is where you start to see considerable vegetation and of course that continues down this valley but this is the first place that you get that and here's an obvious opportunity to put a little dam in and start harvesting water that's what you need to do and then you can start irrigating the landscape around using little close contour ditches from that point coming back to the limiting factors this is mccargs exclusion method which is about where can't I put something and then identifying where so this is me placing apple trees in a fairly exposed irish south west island hillside so lots of wind this was way too wet down here frosty very windy down this side and identified this was my little opportunity to put some apple trees cos apple trees generally don't like to be wet and then this is where all the cold air comes down the hills and just sits there and so just kind of being aware of those things then we want to look at how we the potential beneficial relationships in the garden and a simple way of doing this is just to draw a little web just connect things together ok what interactions happen regularly between compost and vegetables for instance or you know things you might want to avoid like children with a pond or maybe that's supervised so think about what these different activities are and the ones that basically happen a lot need to be close together and this is looking at creating cycles around making tea in a more permaculture fashion and then we want to put it all together so it all makes nice use of what we have so this is a lovely example that Pat who has a flood garden has this lovely hot water system so here's a gutter feeds into a water butt that gravity feeds into a tank behind here which is insulated it's like a giant bunny if it's got an overflow pipe there and then that water feeds down into this homemade hot water panel which heats that up over time and then you can draw it off at this tap here and she's got a way of also refilling this if she uses too much hot water but she makes use of the space she has vertically because this thermo siphons it has no pump in order for this to work this has to be below that tank which has to be below that feeder tank and that's got to be below the gutter so it all fits together really nicely and this here is the original key line system which Pierre Yeoman created in Australia and you can see there's a lot of water here for what we might be expecting to see in Australia and he kept his landscape really moist because he managed his water well so how do we create cycles so going back to that little barrel analogy how do we keep the energy cycling it's a lovely picture which I'm not going to describe but that the house and the garden and all the interactions how things relate to each other and of course doing things like composting is a very simple way keeping that going and this is a tree bog system which is about composting human manure but in a way where you don't have to handle it so edge is an important theme in permaculture it's good to be thinking about the interactions between things that occur at edges and so somebody's made a mandala garden here to minimise paths and maximise beds and here this kind of strip farming system is looking at the relationship between these crops and these crops and these crops and so on and that they're close enough together of the strips and narrow enough that you have a beneficial relationship occurring there the way the thing is laid out is thinking about the relationships between things but also the effective distance of that interaction so if these plants are interacting through the soil, through roots then they might need to be quite close together whereas if the beneficial relationship is to do with pollination for instance and those things might actually be quite far apart relatively speaking so there are different ways that we already make use of natural patterns this is a spiral shell turbine shell at the bottom of a hydroelectric plant that basically creates more power as the water is spiral into the middle flowform is modelled on natural streams to oxygenate water and then this is using small particles at gravel to as a place for bacteria to grow and these are the bacteria that clean up our sewage so we might also look at processes and how we put those things together so this is one I did around making music and it helped me identify where to place things in the physical landscape so I realised I had a lot of ideas when I woke up in the morning so I kept a dictophone by my bed which also was good for recording dreams and when I went gardening I put a notebook on my pocket so I had ideas I could just pull it out of my pocket and write it down and so putting things into a process helps us also identify where things need to go in a physical sense so putting it all together implementation, this is Martin Crawford's Forest Garden in Dartington and by implementing designs that's what we really learn as I've said before so we can have very simple plans where you just say in year one different seasons we're going to do this or you can get into the complexity of things like gant charts where you can basically put things on a timeline and relate them to each other and certainly if you're doing big projects this is a pretty good idea particularly if people are coming in to do particular jobs you need to know that you're going to be able to do all the things that need to happen first before that person turns up and they don't turn up and there's nothing for them to do one of the things we can do with implementation, one of the simplest things is just take away the limiting factors so I've used this again haven't I, it's interesting and this is a do nothing garden, a bucket that I found once and I put outside my back door because I thought it's got a lid it looks useful, didn't do anything with it for two years and it grew a garden so I'm really proud of that one Building Natural Capital David Holmgren talks about this idea of building natural capital supporting life in many ways so here we've got nitrogen fixing plants that have these nodules where the rhizobium bacteria live this is induced stream meandering there we are, I'm going to say that once where the idea is to slow the water down because when we create straight channels water moves more quickly because that straighter channel is more steep so water moves more quickly it does more damage it erodes more and cuts deeper which makes the size even more defined which means it travels even more and does even more damage so the induced stream meandering is to get the stream to get back to where it was before which is to actually slow down and start to settle out rather than cut and then this is something that is in China where they're actually making these little nests almost for plants which is called net and pan in order to stop erosion and to as water moves through the landscape carrying seeds and material they all go into these little pockets so that the plants actually get everything they need and they grow and they even get some wind protection to start with but here the only thing that's growing at the moment is right at the bottom and of course life continues to grow so we've got to think about everything we put in place is going to need some maintenance and so it's wise to think about putting in the low maintenance stuff first because then you don't have to do much maintenance while you're trying to do everything else whereas if you did the high maintenance stuff first then you're busy keep going back to maintain what you've got rather than implementing the next bit there's another lovely design of a toilet and this is there because with unfamiliar technologies like compost toilets is a good idea to give good instructions so that people know how to look after them because compost toilets if you don't look after them well they can smell and people don't like smelly toilets so if you want people to get excited about these kind of technologies you need to make sure they know how to use them and so where's the best place to put the instructions well right in front of them as you walk in or maybe on the back of the door when you're sitting down but zone one and of course part of our maintenance is harvesting and I think we don't do very well at the moment is to weigh to measure what we're harvesting so it's useful to kind of keep those records and just see because that also allows us to look back I've noticed this year the growth on our loganberries in particular is massive compared to last year so and for me one of the most important things is to review how the design's gone so it might be about the design process what went well for me for the process maybe in my client interview process or maybe it's about how well the garden's performing or the people are interacting in the social design but to reflect on that and to evaluate and to really think about what I learnt from that process what went well what didn't go so well what have I learnt with my next design better and to celebrate your mistakes so here's one of my favourite mistakes which was rushing into this design saying I must make a garden and my landlady had talked about putting pallets outside the door to make a decking I thought that's easy I'll just put the pallets down and then I'll make the garden around and then I started thinking about how useful the decking was going to be and that's not nearly wide enough to put plants on and put seats on so I ended up oops making my decking my pallet decking over my garden but I've learnt a very important lesson about spending more time observing, thinking not rushing in and I celebrate that mistake by telling you all now and this has been quite a quick run through but there's a lot more detail that you can pick up on design courses and so on I put a book together as well and if you want to have a look at the slide show there's a link to it there as well and if anyone has any questions we're kind of at the time now but I'm happy to chat to people if you want to afterwards design stuff thank you