 Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the inaugural 2022 Mara guest lecture. It is our pleasure to host Ray Holliday from the St. Louis Zoo and from the Institute of Certified Records Managers today. It is a real pleasure to have you here with us and I am now going to hand the floor over to you, Ray. So yes, so thank you for inviting me to give this guest lecture. I can hopefully do this every year, which is exciting because not all I'm wearing a lot of hats here. So I'll start out with just a brief introduction of myself and then we'll go to the next slide and I'll kind of give you the topics that I'm going to talk about today. So the focus of this presentation is leveraging your rim education and certification in the zoological registrar profession. So I'm going to give you a lot of zoological registrar specific information, but I'm also going to balance that with the global certification along with your education with the Mara program is really going to put you in the best case situation to be able to secure some of the best records or archival jobs out there today. I started my career really young at 17. I was in high school and you know my family history was I lived on 12 acres with my parents. My dad was a blacksmith so he not only chewed horses, shod horses, he broke horses. He was a rodeo performer for quite a few years. He bred quarter horses so we always had quarter horses on the property because we lived in the country. I was always taking in stray animals. I mean I had all kinds of pets. I had many dogs, many cats. I had a pet raccoon which I wouldn't advise now that I'm in the zoo profession but back then it was like nobody knew that wasn't the best idea and I loved my raccoon. He was pretty awesome and so to make a long story short my parents loved animals and they passed that love on to me and they I was surrounded by animals my entire you know till I was in my 20s and then of course from that point on I always had a dog or cat of my own and my high school counselor so I only had to work I have a I only had to go to school half a day in my senior year and I was trying to find a job that I could do with animals. I knew I didn't want to be a veterinarian it just wasn't my thing but I did want to work with animals and my high school counselor suggested I apply to the San Antonio Zoo which is where I'm originally from. She knew the zoo director there well I was able to get a job I worked in all the concession stands I worked in the gift shop not with animals but all day long all the animal people were all out and about and I was able to meet them and eventually when I started my first stint with college in northern Wisconsin towards a biology degree I was able to be a part-time keeper during the summers for the zoo so I did that for two years came back after my second year did not want to go back to northern Wisconsin okay I'm a Texas girl I don't know how I didn't freeze to death the two years I was there or even get around I I didn't have snow tires on my car I was it was just awful and so it took me a little bit to get back to finish my formal education but what I was really trying to do right then was to get a full-time keeper job because I wanted to work my way up and eventually become a curator and manage an animal collection well no full-time keeper jobs were open this is this is what happens in our is we're working our career through we have to deal with all kinds of unexpected barriers limitations not being able to get the job we want we have to be willing to get our foot in the door and then work a plan to get that dream job right and so this records job came up it was like animal records Clark I'm like I can do this I can get this and you know I'll do it for a while and as soon as a full-time keeper job comes open that I'm going to be you know on to that well I got in that position and I all my records manager genes that were hidden inside of me were coming out right that's like the organization working with the records sorry for my dogs are barking they'll be quiet the second they're barking at the trash guy outside and uh you know I just realized I really love this I still work with all the animal people but I'm getting to do the business side which I really like too so after five years of doing that they promoted me to what is registrar now that title is a little misleading I think it's a little antiquated and obsolete for what this position does today but nonetheless my title hasn't changed yet I I manage all the animal records I did at San Antonio zoo all the animal shipments all of the permit compliance so very heavily weighted on records management but also compliance and then other stuff in between like shipping animals but in order to ship animals you have to generate the correct records you have to be able to there's a huge impact to the records because it's so highly regulated and you have to make sure that when you're shipping animals that they get there safely that animal welfare is a huge consideration and there's just a lot of coordination and stuff so so they sent me to my first association of zoos and aquariums conference and when I went to that conference it was amazing I met so many people and I met the director at the st. Louis zoo and they were looking to hire their first registrar I got the job and I've been there ever since so I just sell them a January 14th was my 31 years at the st. Louis zoo and in the mid 90s so I started there in 91 I realized how many records the zoo had it had been open since 1904 so just a ton of records and I just I didn't know a lot yet about the the holistic part of records management but I could tell that we needed to be doing more than they were doing at that time I was able to get a local records grant from the state of Missouri they had a new grant program and I I over the time over that over the 90s I got several of those grants and we microphoneed all the historical records at that time microphone was the best thing going right and that evolution took place now so I've gone through all the various I got my certification with the institute of certified records managers I finished my formal education I got my MBA which has served me really well in this position and really it became my lifelong career goal to elevate this position in zoos and aquariums they need the skills and competencies provided through the ice here and certification definitely if many of these people can go back and get their education or they're just considering education all the partnerships that we have in place now to help them get both you know at the same time is wonderful so that's my story you know I network and I mentor and coach many records managers across so many different audiences not only in the zoo profession but with armor with the schools with the icrm members and candidates so it's it's something that I'm very committed to and I just I love helping people because as you can read from the story I just told you there was nothing I had you I had to want all of the stuff that I've been able to work on and get to and achieve for myself and for others took a lot of hard work so but hopefully and I think that it has had some really positive impact for those that'll come after me so let me go on to the we talk about the education so the path there's several paths here we'll talk about the moral program at San Jose State so you are really in the most amazing program Dr. Frank's worked really hard to align that program when it first started to the icrm outline and under you know having a deep understanding of records management and what the program needed to be current day and so that is wonderful and I know that Dara is working on you know taking that to the next level rim certification the Institute of Certified Records Managers so they started in 1975 and at that time and at Leahy which I'm sure you've heard of by now you know they did all the work in the federal government the early work of federal records management implementing what now we know is a records management program records centers and all those different things but there was you know from that outcome there were records management professionals working in the federal government that realized there wasn't anything there were very limited program education programs in place for the wider scope of records management always been library science always been archives but the records management and the differences with all the things specific to records management weren't there and so the certification a process by which you could be benchmarked against your peers a global process so not us specific but you know it's really needed to help advance the room profession and that's how the Institute of Certified Records Managers began but even today with so many education programs there's still many that don't have access to those programs or they've been in the field too long to justify going and expending that kind of money to get a formal REM specific degree so it's still extremely relevant it's also relevant because once you're done with your education you're done learning unless you have a certification that forces you to keep your skills up you're going to conferences you're doing projects that apply the skills you learned in your education program but also what you've been tested on through the Institute so really really important now talking a little more industry specific the Association of Zoos and Aquariums that's a regional zoo association AZA is the North American Regional Zoo Association but there's others all around the world and they are an advisory organization to zoos and aquariums in North America that are members of AZA they provide standards and accreditation standards the zoo I work for is a member of AZA and I had the opportunity in 2019 to lead a task force they asked me to lead a task force on updating the record standards and a result of that work was we had a committee of I think a total of about 10 people across all different positions I led this part specific to record standards and that resulted in five new record standards for AZA zoos and aquariums which I never thought it would happen in my lifetime so I was really really you know because some of the stuff you need that overreaching highest authority to say you need to do this so those record standards are now tied to accreditation you have you have to do them in order to meet your accreditation requirements that includes having a retention schedule for animal and veterinary records so these are standards under the animal welfare and care it includes using a electronic records management system there's only a few in use for the kind of information we capture but we're using the largest one business continuity plans preference for electronic records so the preference is supporting the transition away from paper so that is helping it's helping with all the efforts that the Zoological Registrar Association ZRA has been working on since 1984 when it was formed we do have an ICRM mentorship program which I'll talk about a little more but really that is the premier association to help you if you're looking to be a zoological registrar we have a training certificate program we have an annual conference we have a listserv which is fantastic it's really a great and the annual dues for a professional member for only $35 a year so it's very affordable you can also be an associate which means you have an interest in records but you're not in a professional registrar position yet and then lastly I'm going to touch on the St. Louis's virtual internship that we established was San Jose State University in 2020 so I did want to just spend a couple of minutes here there's a couple links here which are really important to you but in 2017 we formalized the partnership with San Jose State meaning the Institute of Certified Records Managers formalized the partnership with San Jose State University to provide a credit for parts one through five to those graduates of the MARA program that had completed the courses outlined in the MOU because you also have to have the internship project the consulting project I forget the exact name for it with your school but that's part of the requirement as well and we allow that to be used as your one-year professional experience if you don't have one year of work experience yet that's a hardcore requirement of the Institute even if you were going through the ICRM process directly to take the examinations in order to qualify to sit for the exams you must have one-year professional experience so the reason why we're able to approve that that internship is that is because you know you have when we instituted this Dr. Franks was at CRM Melissa Dobby's at CRM so all of the students are working under the direction of someone who holds one of our credentials but the because of the strong crosswalk to the exam outline you're getting the best case scenario to be able to come out the courses real quick this is the page if you haven't been there Sarah um oh did I get your name wrong Megan is it Megan Ward yeah yes sorry Sarah was our first virtual internship with San Jose so I kind of had her on my brain um so this here explains this link here that's on the slide you've probably already been hearing where this but it explains the difference between the certified records analyst or CRA and the certified records manager so the CRA we launched in 2016 and we recommend that all candidates and applicants uh get their CRA first so if you're in the MARA program and you meet the requirements for the partnership I would strongly recommend that you apply to the Institute when you apply you will select the application that is the San Jose state CRM testing application and go ahead and indicate that you want to accept your CRM your CRA first then you have an unlimited amount of time to pay take part six for this to get the CRM um that just takes the pressure off of you if something comes up life gets in the way and you're not able then by getting your CRA first you don't have that you must get all the parts passed within five years or then you have to start actually taking the exam so you don't want to end up in that situation so you can graduate apply to the Institute and accept your CRA immediately after graduation you will um request from uh Dr. Hot you'll from Dara you will request from her the verification letter and in that letter once the transcripts are reviewed and everything she will confirm that you have satisfactorily completed the following five required courses MARA 204 210 211 249 and MARA 284 and then also you've hopefully completed the internship now remind me Dara the internship is required isn't it it is no not a required course but it's a highly recommended course okay so if you have completed that when you apply to the ICRM you're going to upload that letter that she gives you twice one so that they know that you you're in this partnership requirement you've selected that particular application this verifies that you kept past all the courses needed that you met the partnership requirements and then you uploaded the second time if you need to use it for your one year professional experience so that's how you take advantage of the partnership you know I would encourage just just make sure that you stay up on this and you understand what you have to do you have once she does the letter for you you have 180 days to apply for the credit so there it is time sensitive and I just can't emphasize enough this is just such a really great great program okay so let me get back to the slide here we'll go to the next slide I kind of went over a little bit about aza already but it's a network of more than 600 zoo and aquarium professionals organizations and suppliers all share a commitment with to wildlife conservation education science and animal care it also welcomes public members who support the conservation work of zoos and aquariums and this is just a link to aza's diversity and and inclusivity policy so that is very important to the zoo and aquarium profession that we have the most diverse workforces in place across all of its various members and we offer equal opportunity so you can read that at your leisure um here's just a recap of a part of it um I'm not going to read it to you can read it like I said at your opportunity but they are committed to this and this is something that is looked at in the accreditation process that that all zoos that are members have a process for this we have a committee an entire committee dedicated and this is a list of those other regional zoo associations that I told you about so depending on where you actually live you know everyone's participating in the mar program online so you could be anywhere so um this might be if you have an interest in pursuing a records management job zoological registrar job in zoos and aquariums some of these others might have relevancy too we also have world specific associations so the american association of zookeepers the association of zoo veterinarian technicians and then again the zoological registrar association and we do zra does partner with these other associations because there's there's quite a number of registrars that do other jobs so they might be an animal keeper at the smaller zoos in particular they might be responsible for registrar duties keeper duties or registrar duties and um they might also be a vet tech so you'll see a lot of that um in the smaller zoos so zra was formed in 1984 with a small group of 12 people across quite a few zoos in duties and and that's how the that was a very beginning of the zoological rec registrar position development there were a handful of they were more historians at that time than they were actual registrars but um they all had seemed to have either a museum studies or an MLIS degree and they kind of rose to the top because they had that additional awareness and those additional credentials that helped them deal with the historic the historical aspect of records the archives but it was all paper based back then then in the mid 1980s aza created a record standards had to have a position responsible and trained and trained in the management of animal records during the 10 years that followed the deployment of that standard zra's membership doubled so as i was saying before about how standards really help this is case in point here um and so the reason why this happened in the 80s was in the 70s that's when the majority of all the wildlife laws and regulations began to deal with the exploitation of wildlife companies people were importing wildlife like it was candy and doing whatever they wanted to with it and they were starting to see scientists working with you know all kinds of projects in the wild were seeing a decline and so the convention on international trade and endangered and threatened species or cites was an international uh law that was put into effect to protect wildlife to monitor trade and then the endangered species act was us specific but had the same teeth the same level of protection that cites did and of course then we had the migratory bird treaty act which monitored all the activities and restricted activities with migratory birds whether in the us or internationally so all these laws and that's just a few there's many more injurious wildlife i just all kinds of laws and acts and so the profession became overnight heavily regulated right so zoos were spinning around going oh my gosh you know now what do we have to do to be able to acquire animals and disposition animals and and then and also science was advancing there was more and more research being done on captive animal collection so those two things led to it can no longer be curators each doing their own permits dealing with the records it was too decentralized and unorganized it had to be managed by a single professional and and aquariums followed a little slower but most of the big zoos and medium zoos and now you know you see what the smaller zoos they just add those duties to the responsibility of someone else but nonetheless they meet the standard by doing that um so the zoological registrar position is recognized and supported by aza many registrars participate in aza committees and training courses the zoological registrar association is the professional association representing and advancing the registrar position within the zoological community so it garners a high level of respect at this point it's been around for a long time and participated in a lot of great projects that have been able to raise its level of respect in the community and it started out with 12 members it's now i think over 300 members now so it's grown a lot um so this is the link i'm not going to pop over there right now but this is the website there's a there's a job description posted under general resources that gives you this is sort of the best case if you could have the perfectly structured registrar job that of course across all of our 300 members the consensus that this is the best job description we have put one together for the registrar and the assistant registrar jobs and we promulgate those to aza so that if they have members looking to create this position they have this from the industry you know from the position specific association to to be able to follow so records management and compliance so scientific based information is very important and valued in zoos um we we have a global web-based record keeping system that we use and many other about 1200 other zoos and aquariums use it's called the zoological information management system and it tracks husbandry information as well as medical information but husbandry information is on a day-to-day basis the animal keepers working directly with the animals are training animals they're providing enrichment which is could be anything from a ball or a a bone presented a certain way or for like great apes it might be something that's filled with something and they have to use a tool or work to get it out that's enriching their lives by giving them something to do that they would be doing it if they were still in the wild right and then animal welfare is just their their quality of life um you know their needs are being met um specific needs by species that we're meeting their needs when we ship them that we're shipping them in a way that doesn't cause them stress and that you know make sure that they arrive in good and healthy condition and then of course the medical records so zoological activities with wildlife again are highly regulated so legal compliance for animal transactions imparts thereof which means biological samples so many times I'm importing animals but I'm also because we have 10 conservation centers around the world our researchers are often importing biological samples for research and those have all the same requirements from a permitting standpoint that a live animal shouldn't have won so I have to I have to keep up on all those laws and regulations and make sure that we retain the records that that are needed to meet minimum legal requirements okay let's see so this is just an excerpt from the job description but this when we were working on this my contributions included statements like this that was pulled directly from the ICRM descriptions um for managing both active and inactive animal records because we do that um and ensuring data quality appropriate retention preservation and accessibility that had to be in there just like that has to be in the standards that has to be so that registrars understand this is relevant you're not just working in the global animal record keeping database you're dealing with shipping documentation and all of these things and how is that retention mandated for your zoo or your profession is is there a local city state mandate for retention that you have to follow so this is just making sure that they understand how to find that information and how to apply it to animal records and veterinary records so you can see a lot of this and then and then we have the industry specific aspects so if we weren't managing records in a zoo if we were managing records for say energy or pharmaceutical you'd still have that line in there it would just be all those specific federal and state local requirements for that industry for pharmaceutical or energy in this case it's for wildlife stuff but it's it's the same process it's the same core competency it's compliance right all right and this is just additional kind of you know how animal records are managed in the database and how training is accomplished we have most registrars have to do the annual animal census so you have to you know it's a standard and a AZA accreditation standard that you have an animal inventory done every year because that basically documents your assets related to the animal collection and then participating in ZRA regional zoo associations and other appropriate professional associations in an effort to develop and set standards for animal records and information management okay so just always elevating the level of professionalism for the registrar position we have a professional development committee in fact um Sarah Wang who was our first virtual you know she was already she had interned and was already interning at San Diego Zoo and so this was her second opportunity to do something for a zoo and I think pretty sure she's been bitten by the zoo bug so she joined ZRA and she joined our professional development committee and most likely we'll be participating in our first update to our training certificate program it's an online training program that covers all the core competencies and job duties for a registrar job and it also has a REM module which is what I was saying Lisa Dahlmey helped us on so this is a great you know if you're looking into the zoo registrar position as an opportunity of possible career you'd absolutely want to join ZRA as far as possible just to start monitoring the lists are and plugging in to some of these resources taking the training certificate program again we offer the ICRM mentorship program we partner ZRA partners with the ICRM every year to host a ZRA specific it's been virtual the last couple years but we we've hosted in-person exam prep workshops since 2008 so this year we're virtual again and we're actually partnering with the ARMA Kelowna conference so it'll be a three-way partnership but the training certificate program is very economical it's all online if you're a member of ZRA we have a scholarship that we administer through the professional development committee so you can get you can attend one workshop of your choice either for CRA, CRM or the part six so for someone graduating from the MARA program the part six workshop might be something that you would consider taking because that actually gives you a opportunity to write us a sample business case and then we review the suggested answer for you so just reinforcing what is required for part six because if you're going to be a CRM even with the credit for parts one through five no one gets a credit for part six to get your CRM you'll have to take part six so the TCP provides entry-level training resources and professional development it also serves at the benchmark for evolving best practices that can be helpful to long-term members I always say if you have been a registrar for 20 30 years and you haven't taken any kind of either webinars or courses or got your certification or anything like that on current global best practices for records management at least take this training program because you're probably lacking some skills I mean it just changes so quickly now you can't you can't do this job on autopilot like back when it was paper you can't do it that way anymore so really really important there's six modules that are part of the training certificate program and I'm again module two is specific to REM we talk a lot about the resources through ARMA we talk a lot about the ICRM we give the basic steps towards the life cycle management competencies so there's more awareness and then we refer them to certification for the deep dives this is a link to AZA jobs so most all the registered positions that come become available they do get to send to ZRA and we put them on the listserv but AZA has a pretty robust job board so I would suggest of you know like I said if you're interested I would start monitoring that regularly because we still do have a lot of registrars retiring and positions are coming up open a lot more frequently these days associate membership and ZRA again does not require you to be a zoological registrar but it gives you access to the listserv and more job postings are shared now let's uh let's end with talking a little bit about the virtual internship opportunity with the st. Louis so we're just so proud I do so many virtual internships now not only with San Jose state but with others once we have the process solidified and streamlined and you know we know what we're doing now with how to manage this with virtual check-ins and doing the training in a virtual way and we we just can't thank San Jose state university enough to give us our opportunity to do this and I really hope that we can get some more virtual internships from San Jose state so this is the I'll actually pop over here this is where our internship is listed so this is the database and then if you just go down here and put in the institution name scroll to st. Louis zoo st. Louis and then I think you all you have to just hit search and it'll bring it up and so I brought it up and then you can read this Megan if this is something that you think you might want to try um we have a lot of projects that we do that cover all these different uh core competencies so we do a lot of conversion you know we're still I still have departments coming to me all the time going I found all these paper records down in the basement so we have to we have to go through them review them check them against the retention schedule determine if it's still records is it are are they vital records are they you know what what's their price value today and then if they need to be retained and we then we put them into our document management system we use a system called docuware and so that turns into a lot of projects that we can extend to the interns and externs that we work with with all the university programs so I've done since since we started virtual San Jose we had interns from LSU from Denver from st. John's University we have a local southwestern Illinois college so we're adding more and more st. Louis University we've been working with them forever in person but we've done some virtual ones now I get interns from their health and information management degree program every year so um we have a migration project that was just completed with our ZEMS medical so all the medical records we also completed one with an intern from SLU this year that had to be not this year but last year again conversion from paper records into docuware for our institute of conservation medicine program we have a big project this year that's focusing on the duplication aspect required by Missouri animal health for our medical records so they're in the global database but they have to be duplicated in another location for five years and so we're using docuware for that as well but we have 10 file cabinets of stuff that has to be you know the part the administrator on site will go through and determine what gets scanned in the docuware and then the scanning and the indexing will be an intern project we also have another couple of departments that are left to roll out our ZEMS enrichment module so that's an onboarding project we've placed Sarah Sarah did two of those for us and it's a matter of adding the approved enrichment items to ZEMS and then assigning those items to all the animals that are in that department and they're relevant doing that in tests to learn how to do it and then going into the live database and doing all of that onboarding so that the keepers who have extremely limited time they would never get to do this if they had to spend all that time entering those records so by us being able to outsource that to the interns and externs gives makes it possible for us to roll those things out in a timely way and it also gives interns and externs an excellent project to work on that's due specific okay so let's go back and I think that might be let's see so this is specific to the animal enrichment so you will the learning outcomes with that as you will learn the enrichment manager role because that's the role that adds all the items and does all the assignments and then we also have we are developing our online ZEMS training program so all of the training that we do for anyone that's going to be using that program at our zoo we are taking all of that and making an online program to be rolled out hopefully by April 1 so if someone would happen to come on board as an intern or extern right now they would probably beta test those new courses for us and they might actually get to help build some of those courses in think effect and that's the program that we'll be using and I've got 15 minutes so Megan do you have any questions so it sounds like this is more towards a morrow certificate at the moment I'm in the MLIS part it's not heavy yeah I'm sorry I didn't mean to exclude you in any way it's I don't think it's limiting though we have students that do stuff for us from other programs that are strictly MLIS or MLS okay great yeah I did try to apply for the virtual internship earlier before the spring semester started I think it took me to like a more general application so maybe I need to revisit that were you were you were you the one that's that had indicated interest originally and then you weren't able to do it uh no I was never contacted okay okay because I did have a student the last time I gave this talk and they were really excited and then something happened with their time commitment they weren't able to do it um yeah I probably messed up on the application yeah is who who should she talk to Dara maybe if she wants to try this on making sure she does the application correctly well I'm always happy to help in any way I can but our internship supervisor is actually Dr Linda Main okay yeah and and and feel free like once you go there and you update and you and you decide if you want to apply just reach out and start communicating with me directly because we have to have you apply through our volunteer services department as well to meet the St. Louis requirements now I see okay great that's too difficult those projects look very interestingly in Richmond and the creation of the online training programs I I'm actually a career transitioner I was a teacher so yeah that would be great and then I wonder if we have a very small zoo over in Folsom it's it's different from the Sacramento Zoo in that they're more about rescuing animals that can't go back into the wild but the big part of their programming is enrichment and demonstrating to the public like what these animals are capable of so like for example last summer when people started going camping more they gave the bear a cooler it's a play with let's just show like okay this is bear walk bear lockers have you ever seen all the enrichment that they give like the orangutans and stuff because you know they built in the wild they build their nest every night so they'll put straw and paper and they're laying in and everywhere and building these you know these complicated structures of stuff and then they crawl into it and that's like their nest for the night if they didn't have that stuff it wouldn't be able to do what they do you know and building their nest right and I like how the community around the zoo really supports the zoo they I guess there was a pumpkin farmer had a lot of leftovers after Halloween so that almost every single animal had pumpkins to mess with and yet the squirrels there a squirrel just loved it they love pumpkin is very very popular very true well this sounds great and I will tell you so we do we are building the training courses for zems but we're also in my my employee Lily she's the assistant registrar she's she does a lot of the work with the interns on actually teaching them how to add all the stuff to zems but we also have about six modules for docuware which you know we're going to be busy with trying to get all the stuff converted over to online training for a while zems will probably need to be done by April 1 but then I'm going to need to help with the docuware stuff as well so there's there's plenty of work with that and then we have one other module that we have to do for SharePoint but if you have a preference for animal specific stuff if we can get you approved and get you through all that process I'm like I said there's no shortage of projects wow great sounds great okay well thank you so much for having me again Dara and um I should probably be calling you Dr. Hoffman I apologize I'm just so it's okay but no thank you so much for taking the time to prepare this enjoy this I always learn so much when you join us and I'm really grateful for your time and expertise and I think as for the student especially it's a really valuable perspective to to see what records management looks like you know out in the real world because we've had uh you're the third presentation this year we've had a gentleman who works with UNESCO and or sorry with UN and has done like rich records management it's from South Sudan and those kinds of projects and then we had someone from the harvard libraries talking about general preservation and so I think it's great that they can see how diverse the profession really is when you go out and you know roll up your sleeves and get into this world that's great well I do have a question um once this recording is shared am I able to share that with absolutely it will be up on our youtube channel um but I will um ask as well about how you could you know share it beyond just you know sharing to a link to our youtube okay that sounds great great again I look forward to hearing from you and thank you so much again for the time today thank you