 Stories are powerful. Stories connect us to our past and orient us to the future that God has dreamed for us. We need to tell our stories so that others would know what God has done for us in us and through us. The North Texas Conference is committed to lifting up the stories of those whose voices we need to hear the most. These are stories that give a fuller picture of where we've been and help us chart a course for where we go from here. In our effort to build a more diverse, equitable and inclusive community in the North Texas Conference, we start here. We start by listening to one another's stories. Join us as we explore stories of challenge and hope in the North Texas Conference Black Church Experience. In 1968, the United Methodist Church was created through two unions, one internal and one external. The external union saw the merging of two Wesleyan bodies, the Methodist Church with more than 10 million members, and the Evangelical United Brethren Church, or EUB, with nearly 750,000 members. Together, these two became the United Methodist Church. The internal union was the joining together of Black and White Methodists, a condition the EUB required before they would unite with the Methodist Church. In our part of the country, this meant a merger between the Black West Texas Conference and the White North Texas Conference into a single, racially integrated annual conference. The process of negotiating integration and the denominational merger took many years. It culminated in Dallas, with a uniting conference held in April and May of 1968. What was once segregated became a single conference and a single denomination. What can we learn from this history? What power and potential can we uncover as we make our way forward together? This is our story. Share with us how you remember life first in the West Texas Conference. Well, it was a community, and church was a community. In 1968, in the 60s, we had Black communities, and so the Black communities also had Black churches. And so when we went to church, we not only knew the people that lived in our community, we also knew them in the church. So it was like, you know, if you did something wrong, your aunts and uncles were there in the church, but you also had friends that helped to raise you there, and they got you, you know. It was, come on over here little girl, sit down, let me talk to you. Lots different now than it was then. I grew up with parents who insisted on church attendance and church involvement, so I was involved with the MYF and with Sunday School, and I do recall as a young person how fun-filled and meaningful the Vacation Bible Schools were. Yes. Because, you know, obviously those are times you didn't have much to do, and so Vacation Bible School became a rich time of experiencing other people and learning new things to do, you know. So yeah, so life in the church in the early years were very meaningful and fun-filled and enjoyable. It was a vibrant time for us, as I remember. At that time we formed a close-knit communities that were interlocking, that served us well, and it allowed our culture to develop a style of worship that was dynamic, and it filled with energetic preaching, dynamic preaching, and of course our own style of music. Yes. And I think that was a contribution to the Methodist Church that could not be replicated anywhere else. You know, you never know that you are in a segregated world when you're in the midst of your world, because if your world works well for you, when you are in that bubble, if you will, because it's basically a bubble, then you don't realize that there are other things that are going on outside that world. For us, it was a grand time. We thoroughly enjoyed going to conferences, getting to meet other teenagers that were with us throughout all of Texas, actually, and then some other places. So for us in the West Texas Conference, we had a good time. I can remember times that we would have sock hops. You know, you probably don't know anything about that handy, but... I'm not certain I do. Well, we used to have sock hops in the church, and you know, the youth groups would have... We had a great big fellowship hall, and we would invite... We only could invite so many people to our group. Usually it would come from another black church. St. Paul was very close to our church, and we would come together and we would have dances and sock hops, and you couldn't wear your shoes, you had to wear your socks. And so we danced all night long, and it was secular music, you know, and we had a good time. We went to the church to do that because we couldn't go anywhere else. We couldn't go anywhere else. What was life like for me in the midst of all of that? Yes. It was very challenging, very, very challenging. Always seeing through the dark to the light, knowing that it would come in the midst of all of the difficulties, all of the challenges that we faced. There was great anticipation of what this transition would be. There was considerable talk about how the merger of the black and white constituencies of the church would form a sort of formidable religious denominational structure, namely that the African-Americans would bring to the church its strong emphasis on worship and preaching and somehow infuse the church with that and the Anglo church with its educational component, organizational structure component. All this was expected to make this a very formidable denomination in the country. To some extent, we're still looking for that, but that was part of the anticipation, though. Were there feelings of fear, feelings of excitement? Well, I think some both. I don't know if we'll call it fear. I think there was concern about what would happen to our history, what would happen to our churches? We just fade in the background and lose our sense of who we have been, who we are, who we were, and what strengths we had. Will they continue to grow and develop, or would they be mitigated by the presence of a new church? So there was a fear, but also there was great anticipation on the other side, that this is an opportunity that, to some extent, our ancestors fought for and died for, lived for. So let's live into it. Yeah, right, and let's work to make this work, because that's what we've been after all along. I remember my mother was very adamant that this would not work. Until she died, and she died in 2020, this year, 2020, and 2020, I remember her saying, see, look at our churches now. I told you that wasn't going to work. And I remember my mom saying, my dad would come back home and talk about the meetings that they went to and the plans that this conference had. And my mom says, why are we doing this? The only reason why we're doing it is because the United Brotherhood said that they would not, that we would have to get rid of the segregation in order for the Methodist Church to be a part of United Methodist. And my mother was, you know, she, there were very clear conversations in my home that my mother did not want this to happen because she did not think it was going to work. Reverend Mosby was appointed to an Anglo church, and so that had to be after 1968. And he was one of the first African-American clergy to go to an Anglo church. And I remember him inviting my family to come to the church. And I think that that is what we did. The Anglo church decided that they were going to send people to worship with us. And then we went to worship with them. But when we would go, we would go as families. I mean, it was a whole bunch of us going. You know, but when the Anglo church came to us, they always sent representatives. And because of that, you know, and the black church, the families knew. But why is it that we go as families? But when they come to us, they only come as representatives. And I think that that is another reason that my mom really felt that, okay, we're going to do this, I see we're going to do it, but this is not going to work. So I really hear you saying your mother was very skeptical. Very skeptical. Very skeptical of authentic diversity. Very skeptical. Very skeptical of equity. Yes. As one church. Yes. And very skeptical of true inclusion. Yes. We did not know what the outcome would be. And we were concerned about our participation, you know, in the beyond and in the merge, beyond the merger, our role that we would not lose anything, but that if anything, you know, that we would gain in terms of opportunities, roles of positions, whatever. You know, that, that, that would enable us and enable the church to claim it's, it's true identity. And as it moved up to toward merger. And you were also part of those persons that were putting BMCR together that meant to be an advocacy group for blacks once we took merger took place. Yes, I happened to be one of the few, the group that was met to form black merger, the merger for blacks and the church BMCR. We met. And we talked about the challenge that faced us and we design our strategy for breaking through some of the barriers that barriers that we were facing in the life of the congregation. And we made a motion to become a group to an organized group. But primarily organizing you know what it means to be black and Christian in the life of the church. And that that was our story we did not want to use lose our identity. And at the same time we felt that we had contributions to be made. And that we would be a blessing to the whole church that we would also gain, you know, by laboring together working together with our sisters and brothers to overcome the racism that we were experiencing. Pastor at the time was Reverend Dale Hansborough and Reverend Bruton had just left and come to Dallas. And so they met at our church of course and we teenagers were sitting over in the corner listening to what they were talking about. And one of the things that they the main thing that they were concerned about was that when the merger came about we would lose our identity. That we and we were going to lose our who we are as a worship experience that kind of thing. And so we listened to them. I remember Bishop Dixon came and he was they were talking about okay now how many bishops are going to have are we going to lose our bishops are the bishops going to be able to merge into the growing church the way it is. How are you how are we going to assimilate. And that was a word that they used that was really interesting because that was a word that they used. How are we going to assimilate and do we really want to assimilate not really. Well there were a lot of angst on our side because we were already at a disadvantage. But then we saw a larger possibility of not gaining grounds as we go into a much larger system. We were enjoying our own leadership and therefore we could expect and plan and do the normal things that we had done. And this we were concerned about the voices at the table in making these decisions. And we also noticed that there was a small percentage of our leaders at the table. So we wondered about what impact are we really making. The other thing and I can say this as a lay person is that the ones at the table were clergy. And I as many and I say this because the United Methodist Women were always in the forefront of things. I didn't even see United Methodist Women at the table. And that was a bit concerned. A concern that we discussed within our household as a minister's family was how is it that this denomination was so open arm that they could embrace a whole another denomination and still have reservations about desegregating the black members of their conferences. I've been told more than one occasion that you were the last person ordained in the West Texas Conference. As a matter of fact it was two of us. It was my roommate and I mean a schoolmate John Green who now is retired out of the Southern California Conference. But John and I were the last people ordained. We were ordained deacon while we were in seminary in the old West Texas Conference. Were you ordained by Bishop Eugene Slater? Yes, it would have been Slater. I think it was in San Antonio if I don't remember, if I'm not mistaken. At the time were you aware or anyone aware that that would be the last ordination for the West Texas Conference? Yes, and they made quite a, it became a kind of a historical feeling kind of a meeting because they knew that there would be the last one. And so there was a lot of emphasis on the expectations of the new church and that sort of thing and how we sort of hold on to capture these moments of history because they are fading and that sort of thing. You remember the last worship service you all had at annual conference in the West Texas Conference before merger? Oh Lord, do I have to? Yeah. I shall never forget it. It was one of the most challenging moments in all of my ministry, because we as African Americans in the United Methodist Church had struggled to overcome many of the barriers which prevented us from reaching our God-given potential. And we had fought for merger because we thought that was the right thing to do. But when we got to that last day, when we call the road and when it was clear that we would merge with other churches, we suddenly realized that would be the first time, next the first time that we would be together like we were. That would be our last meeting in that conference, from that conference, that predominantly black annual conference. I want to tell you, I've never seen so many preachers crying in my life. My dad was just there, let's preach. I've never seen my dad cry. I mean, we all, I mean, because we knew that would be our last together, the fellowship that we had. I mean, it was really a challenging moment and a painful moment. I mean, we were happy for the merger, we fought for that, we wanted to see that. But we knew we would never be together again like we had been because that was a fellowship that was so very important to us. And you may recall the very first significant cross-racial appointment of an African American to predominantly Anglo church. Sure. Can you share with us about that a little bit? Well, yep. In the 1990s, early 90s. Yeah, it was early 90s because I was still fresh on the cap. I think there was a sense of which that it was time for us to try to make a step forward. And at the time, the church that was viewed as the church that was probably more open and more liberal at that time than any other place. And that this was the more likely place to make a change. That appointment became a little problematic early on. I think, namely because there were some misconceptions about whether being a liberal, a white liberal, accommodates cultural change from the other side. It's one thing to talk the talk. Yes. It's another thing to walk the walk. I think that a lot of learning took place in that because that was a place in a time where black pastors wanted to make sure that their blackness was not going to be in any way swept aside. Just because I'm in a predominantly white church. And I think in some ways we're still wrestling with some residues of that. Whether or not the perceived liberals are as accommodating as one think they are on paper. The district superintendent called me. It was graduation day. As a matter of fact, I was at dinner with some friends. And she said, I need to talk to you. And I was okay. And I told her where I was. And she said, Oh, well, just call me later. And I did. And then she said, I want you to go to Web Chapel. First appointment. First appointment. Seven years there. I was there. And I said, Okay, I don't know where Web Chapel is, but but I'll find it. And it was interesting when I went there. The first thing I did was walk around the entire building just inside and out. Just in one of the cornerstones on the building said Methodist Church South. Wow. I bet you they didn't have that in mind when they were organizing. Methodist Church South. And so I asked some of the congregants. I said, Do y'all know what that means? And one of the men said to me, Yeah, I do. I know what that means. I said, Okay. I said, So what do you think about me being your pastor? And so he said, I'll have to say pastor. I'll have to say pastor is football season. When football season comes, don't preach long. Don't be upset if we get at 12 o'clock. We get up and leave because the game is going to be over. We got to go to the game. I won't be upset because my husband has to go too. And so, you know, we kind of laughed at that. But one of the, I want to say family founding members of Webchapel said to me, She's a trustee chair. She said, You know, we've had women pastors before. But we've never had a black pastor. The lady who said that to me, I said to her, This does not rub off. And she was like, Oh, okay. I said, I said all of the black people that I know, that I know personally are like me. And it's going to be okay. You're going to be fine. So you wanted a few people in North Texas who have served in cross-racial, cross-cultural appointments more than once. Yes. You have anything you want to share about me? Well, I guess I do. I have a letter. The letter was sent to the bishop. And it stated that we have experienced this woman for two weeks. And if we do not, we do not like the African-American worship. And if you were going to kill our church, you just have by appointing her to our church. Two weeks. After two weeks. And that was a little bit more than, you know, but I continue to do my work. Yes, you did quit. Yeah, didn't quit because you realize that you're not serving the people. You're serving God first. And then, you know, and whatever you're doing for God, I will make a way to serve the church, the members and the community. And that's how I had to look at it. I wanted the cross-racial appointment. I wanted to have the experience. But I also had my mother in the ear that said, I don't think we need to do this. I don't think it's going to work. And so that was just one of many examples that I had in a cross-racial appointment. So it strikes me that the appointment you're describing was, I mean, not only a cross-racial appointment, but cross-cultural. The culture, the dominant culture in the church was different than the culture out of which you came and that you brought. I mean, that happens all the time today as well. Churches trying or being challenged to cross those cultural divides with the community that they're in or maybe a pastor who comes. Are there lessons that you learned about things to keep in mind when in those like cross-cultural kinds of moments or ways you found to kind of navigate that? Yeah. And what I learned was that I had to be the true me. I could not be anything else but the true me. And the true me loved the people. The true me went into the community and found out what it was that the community needed and what the community wanted. And I brought it back to the church. I continued to try to be the true me with these areas. But at the same time, I needed to have something, someone to kind of, you know, to kind of have my back. And I didn't, I really felt that I needed to give up who I was to be exactly what the church wanted me to be. And I couldn't do that. But there was also an interesting dynamic of not only change in terms of race, but there's also the subtlety of change in socioeconomic. When I was asked, when I was brought to North Texas from Central Texas and went to Hamilton Park, but I remember my district superintendent pulling me aside and said, now let me tell you a little bit about this church. And so we went on to talk about, you know, you got a lot of teachers in here, you know, you got some doctors there. He said, does your wife have a mink coat? I said, did my wife have a mink coat? No, he said, well, you know, it may be time to think about it. So he was speaking to the subtlety of that middle-class orientation that he felt was present at that church. And he wanted to make sure that I was aware that I was stepping into a church that had these kind of expectations, you know. I think he may have even asked me to consider lowering my afro, which was big at that time. I know if he didn't, some of the members did, you know. But you know, so some of those dynamics was going on at the same time of racial stuff. There was also the subset of socioeconomic orientation and change about old ways, new ways of doing things. Yeah, it sounds like you may have also been a little of a cultural elimination. Well... Of acculturation. Yeah, I think there was a sense in which that DS, like many others, probably thought that if this merger is going to work, your people are going to have to be more like my people to make this work. Yes. And being more middle class. Yes. Spoke to that. And he wanted to encourage that, you know, that you will do well to accept the way this church is and to continue to develop this kind of mindset and this kind of lifestyle in these people, you know, if this merger is going to work, you know. I have to claim the progress that we made. You look at district superintendents all over the United Methodist Church. Women, men in ministry, superintendents in all of those positions, boards and agencies, empowerment, participation, the activity of the Black Methodist Church, we know liberated whites and liberated Black folk working together in the United Methodist Church. And I think we have to admit that we have gone a long, long way. It's been a difficult struggle. We had to struggle. But we have made a lot, large major progress, you know, election of bishops, black, white bishops. It's been a challenging ride, but we made progress. We made progress. And I thank God for that. We've had our problems. We're going to continue to have, I think on some of the issues in, you know, to give you some of the issues, you know, we disagree and so forth and so on. But we have made progress. Yeah. I had a men's Bible study class on Wednesdays. There were five men and they were all in their 80s and 90s. And the oldest one was 94, and he said to me, you know, before I met you, I had a totally different understanding of black people. I said, how many black people did you know before you met me? He said, I didn't know any. I said, I know. You only know what you saw on TV. And I don't know those people either. And when all five of them have passed away now, but when I got there, they each told me, they told me the pastor that they wanted to preach their eulogy when they passed away. I said, that's fine with me. But before each one of them passed away, they asked me to preach their eulogy. Yeah. And underscores just how important the relationship is. Absolutely. And breaking down barriers and discarding assumptions and prejudice. Right. Relationship is the key. Absolutely. It's knowing people. People are people. When I was a disaster response coordinator, that was the best job, the best calling that I had. It was outside of the church. And I worked with the Anglo churches more than I did the African-American churches. And I did the same thing in my cross-racial appointments as I did in the disaster response. So I think about that all the time. What was it that was so different that I was able to work with the Anglo churches not being their clergy, their pastor, than the disaster response? I think that the difference was that we sat down and we listened to one another. And I heard what they brought to the table. They heard what I brought to the table. And we were able to jail. And we were able to do wonderful work in the North Texas conference as far as disaster response as concern. I think that's what we need to do. I think it's very important. We've been talking about dismantling racism since I started this conference. We're still talking about it. We're still talking about studying gay, lesbian, homosexuality. Why are we studying it? Why are we saying that we're going to get over this hump? We need to understand that we serve God first. And so when we sit down at the table, we need to, like Quincy Jones would say, check our egos at the door. And then come and listen to what God has to say at the table. You might not like what I say, but listen to what I said. I think what we have to wrestle with in all of this discussion about diversity and equity and inclusion is, I mean, you mentioned the bottom line. And the bottom line is to what extent has and will these kind of changes make for the future of the church? Another way of looking at it is that what has been our results? What can we point to and say, we did this, we did that, we did that, and look at where we are now? Across the church, I think we have to raise that same kind of question. Are we doing this just to look good on paper? Are we doing this just to say, okay, we got the first this, we got the first that, you know, we did this? But what is it doing to the bottom line? The bottom line is effective as a ministry. What does it say about our witness to the community? And our witness to the kingdom of God. I mean, if we're going to be, to some extent, results oriented, we've got to measure all these things in a way that it helps to meet the bottom line. I think the needle has moved a little. A little, huh? But I think we could do a much better job. I know that my emphasis would be on African Americans, but as a member of the United Methodist Church, I really look at all of God's creations. We have not elected a Native American bishop. There are limitations on the women who are clergy. If we're talking about inclusion, the diversity that we seek, I'm not sure that even the church knows what its goals are, but I do think that we remain open to the principal and the teachings of inclusion. Now, whether our actions have caught up with our goals, I don't think we are anywhere near where God wants us to be or even where I want us to be. I see that there are opportunities, because all of it is not in the leadership. It is also how we're bringing our congregations along. One of the missteps that I think we're had in this merger is that there was no preparation of the people in the pew for what was about to take place, neither in the African American Church or in the White Church, nor in the Hispanic churches, nor in the Asian churches. Everybody, there's been not a real, to me, global effort to saturate our congregations with the urgency of being inclusive. I don't see that. I think we have a long way to go as a church, because we do not address the elephant in the room. We do not, as a church, we skim around it, we go over it or under it, but we don't actually address the elephant in the room. As a matter of fact, Bishop McKee and I were talking one day, and I said to him, Bishop, until white men, until white men stand up and say, this is wrong, it's not going to change. I said, because white men are in charge of the way things are today. And so until you stand up and say, not just you, but the blanket, until you all stand up and say, this is wrong, it's not going to change. I don't think we can afford to give up on that struggle. We can never be, we cannot afford the price of being satisfied with things as they are and where we are. The struggle continues. I think that's my, the struggles continues. We have not arrived. You know, I'm hopeful and I must be hopeful. Yes. But we have not arrived, you know, we cannot afford the luxury of being satisfied with things as they are. Yes. You know, I talk about God's gift of a brand new future. I think God is always offering us the gift of a brand new future. We cannot afford luxury of being satisfied with things as they are. They can get better. And so we have to be embracing that, facing that brand new future that God is offering us. Those are my famous words of God's gift of a brand new future.