 Welcome everybody to the Franconian net stage. I have the great pleasure to introduce you to Leonie who has been active in higher education politics since 2015 and among other things they have been representative in the European Students Union and an executive committee member of the Free Association of Students Unions, FZS for short. And I also may introduce you to Lasse, who currently studying in Leipzig and his representative president to the ARCHIS Student Council and member of the FZS. Their talk goes by the name Let's Get Digital how the EU envisions the future of European education. This talk will introduce you to current trends in the European higher education policy with special attention to how digitization is used to further strategic goals to the EU Commission. I'm happy to give the floor to Leonie and Lasse. Yes, hello and welcome everybody. We are Leonie and Lasse and we want to talk to you about European education policy in the following minutes and the call we want to tell you about what's the next decade we'll have in pocket for European education policy and have prepared a quite extensive agenda for you. We want to tell you first about where this is all coming from and what the EU Commission is doing and why you should care about it because those changes potentially have the potential to impact European education policy quite substantially and also impact each and every university we know and the way we study and research. One of the core things in that will be the European University Initiative, which we will tell you in a few details before and afterwards we will talk about mobility and sort of dimension and Leonie will talk through that. And then we will go into details of virtual exchanges and internationalization at all and also micro credentials, which is one of the biggest buzzwords buzzing around through European higher education policy right now. We will also tell you about the European Student Card Initiative before we will speculate about the European Degree, which is talked about in some places, but it's quite uncertain what this meant by that by now and afterwards we will conclude our speech. Thank you. So what is the European Commission doing right now? As you all know, the European Union has come under a lot of criticism recently and the process of Europeanization has come to a steady decline or it's gotten slower in the recent times. You know all the buzzwords, the breakthroughs happening and they will be definitely leaving or have been leaving two years ago and also will leave the common market on the first of January in two days, but also the Fidesz Party in Ukraine, in Hungary or the Peace Party in Poland are blocking further integration of Europe, but also on the international stage, Europe has come under some scrutiny and so the European Commission and the European Council and the other institutions have come to the conclusion that further steps to integrate Europe even further are needed and one of those could be for example the further integration of the markets, trying to enroll the euro onto other countries, which currently don't use the euro as the currency, but also one of the core principles in which further integration shall be advanced will be education. All these principles have been lined out in a speech by Emmanuel Macron, which he gave on the 26th of September of 2017. His words were actually quite drastic and I just highlighted that he's been talking of a European civil war, but also of the other side of the Atlantic and quite concisely described the problem from his perspective. It's surely also a reaction to his victory over Marine par in France, so he said that the European civil war is halting the integration and the internal divisions of Europe under the European Union have been a problem and the further steps are desperately needed to get over that. He proposed a very broad array of things and to overcome these internal divisions and to further integrate Europe and one of the core things he mentioned was a culture under which Europe could be integrated and it's very Eurocentric all in all what he said, but the speech he held at the Saban, which accordingly was called the Saban speech, had quite a big impact on the European Union and what will continue in the following years and especially in the sector of fire education policy because seemingly they diverge from the Bologna process and try to integrate things even further, but it's still quite behind the curtain of information. It's still not really breaching big publicity, I want to say, so when we look at the timeline, I just picked the date of the Brexit referendum as one of the things which happened in 2016, but you could also put in there the election of Donald Trump or other things, for example, the rise of China, which all seem to have had a big impact on the thinking of the broad view of Emmanuel Macron and of the European Commission. So things have been picking up and then on the 26th as I told you of September, Emmanuel Macron held the Saban speech and mentioned for the first time the idea of creating European universities, which will be abbreviated in the future or in the coming speech of Leonien E.S.E.Y., meaning European University Initiative. On the 14th of November, the Commission, the European Commission, published a communique strengthening European identity through education and culture and laid out quite broad visions and to show that they picked up Macron's ideas and also mentioned for the first time the creation of a European education area, which Leonien E.Y.Y. will tell you about in a few seconds, in a few minutes. On the 22nd of May, the EU Council, the Education Committee of the EU Council, so the presidents of the countries, Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron, and all the other ones, which were in power in 2018, and they combined the idea of the European University Initiative and the European Education Area and decided that they want to have the European University Initiative as a flagship of the European Education Area. This developed quite rapidly into the first call for European universities, which ended on the 28th of February 2019 and 17 European University alliances were selected under the European University Initiative. Another call ended this year and there have been in total 41 European University alliances selected. The German Ministry of Education had a quite big impact on the sole process, which as you can see is a very, very rapid one for European policy and in comparison, and they said they were staunchly in favor of creating a European Education Area. They were very, very supportive of the European University Initiative and also set and followed through with giving money from the German government directly to the European University alliances. Most European universities alliances, which have German universities in it, receive money from the federal government as of now and that money is handed through the German Academic Exchange Agency. The whole process was very, very much furthered by the German government and in the back documents from the 70s or from the last century, there often has been an idea of creating European universities mostly from German side and it has been shot down quite a lot in the last century. So from the French side, so that's quite a diversion from the back from former times and the hope of integrating Europe further by means of education. So now Leonie will tell you about... Yes, so also I want to encourage you if you have any questions about abbreviations that we use or the terms feel free to ask because we know that the whole thing is very cryptic for people who are not spending a lot of their time reading these texts and talking about these concepts, so feel free and there are a lot of abbreviations going around and they are confusing. So there is the European Education Area Order EEA which is this quote that I have here is taken from the Gutenberg text from 2017 in November established a European Education Area based on trust, mutual recognition, cooperation and exchange of best practices, mobility and growth. And when this paper was published, a lot of people who are involved in European higher education policy were really surprised because we already have a European higher education area or an EEA since 1999. It was established with the Bologna Declaration and interestingly the basis for the Bologna Declaration was the Sorbonne Declaration which was done a year before. So more or less saying we need a more new Sorbonne process for Europeanization would be and many people have seen it like saying well the European higher education area which was is also called the Bologna process has failed in a way to create an area built on trust, mutual recognition. So what is the goal of the European higher education area? It is a collaboration between 49 countries who want to build an area implementing a common set of commitments through structural reforms and shared tools. As you might know the EU has 27 member states and the European higher education area has 49 so there is much more difference between those and in this talk we will not go into the whole impact that the Bologna process had on higher education in Europe at large but we will mostly talk about the impact that the European education area has and in what way it creates a Europe of two speeds in a way like a Europe in the European education area where there is a lot of money spent for the different initiatives which we are going to talk about and the different programs and the European higher education area which has been trying for more than 20 years now to build the same thing more or less but the difference of the European education area what the EU Commission is going to say we are not trying to do something different because they are also want to implement mutual recognition in the field of vocational training and also schools so that is like a huge difference the European higher education areas for universities universities who applied sciences and the aim of the European education area is to address all kind of credentials education that is happening in the EU but there is also a lot of worry that the other European countries which are not members of the EU might be left behind and maybe Lasse can also address some of these concerns and when he talks more about the European university initiative. The university initiative as you have learned is seen as the flagship of the European education area and shall be new. As I have told you already it consists of 41 alliances with up to 10 member universities so the idea is that universities in different places in Europe get together and create a European university alliance in the introduction for which I unfortunately forgot to thank you all and it was mentioned that I'm president of the of the ARCOS student council I'm sure nobody really knows what that means of you or most of you if there is no lucky coincidence and it means and ARCOS is one of those European university alliances and it consists of seven universities from seven countries and it has created an internal structure and also some form of a student council which we are still in the process of creating but we try to represent student interests through the student council which I'm president of. In total those numbers add up and there are 280 higher education institutions involved in the European university initiative in different alliances and all of them get 5 million every alliance every single alliance gets 5 million euro from Erasmus plus budget which probably will continue in the next EU budget as far as I know and and also will has got got the opportunity to use 2 million euro from the Eurasian 2020 budget per alliance and those 5 million euros are for a term of three years for the first call and there are universities from all member states plus Iceland, Norway, Serbia, Turkey and United Kingdom and I will tell you about the the two-speed part in a second when I am going to get to my maps but first let's return to Emmanuel Macron's Sabon speech where he again outlines what he thought and where the European universities are first mentioned because in the speech the goals of Emmanuel Macron are for higher education area extremely ambitious and I believe he didn't have the intention of fulfilling these goals because nobody can in the short term so in five years from 2019 where the initiative started to 2024 there should exist 20 alliances or European universities and we don't know if there's a difference in this line between European universities and European university alliances but the central goal is highlighted and that all students of these European universities shall be mobile between those universities in the first call the goal set by the European Commission was that 50 percent of students enrolled in an alliance shall be mobile shall shall participate in mobility between the universities that means that in Arcos where again the president of the student council we have 320,000 students in the between those seven universities that would mean that 160,000 students would participate in mobility during the study programs which is extremely ambitious considering that adults have some numbers between 10 and 20 percent usually but let's look at how the universities are distributed throughout Europe and to look at how the different speeds are impacted which we can see here a map where the university is participating in the European university initiative are counted up by a country and Germany for example has got 35 universities participating in the European university initiative and the smallest number are Malta and Luxembourg with both one as you can see you can't see Malta but that's because it's so small and I will just tell you what's happening in Malta and Eastland also has got what just one and yeah you can you can probably get what the numbers mean and what's most interesting here is Turkey, Serbia and the United Kingdom and because the United Kingdom has only seven universities participating in the European university initiative but it has got similar inhabitants as France for example so France with 32 universities is just second in Europe and also Serbia and Turkey have got some universities but the two speeds is quite quite different because under the European higher education area also Ukraine and white Russia and Israel and Russia are included and under the European education area it's mostly just the core of Europe plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway because Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway are participating in the initiative as they would be a normal European member but Brexit has had its impact and Britain is just on the on the sideline of this initiative which they are not in the European higher education area and each of the Sabon and the Bologna process they are normally part of the Bologna process but not of the Sabon process apparently and we can also see the the regional distribution of everything and how many European university initiative universities exist per student so the normal number is between 50,000 and 100,000 students per university which is surprisingly good when we compare it with for example the excellence initiative in Germany which the ratio has been way worse for the students and considering that students shall be involved it's quite good but it also tells us something about the regional distribution and the most interesting finding here is that Poland is way underrepresented they have got about 50,000 students more than the next closer one which would be Greece and the first bad worst represented country in the European university initiative actually Germany even though they've got the most which is because they've got the most students as you can see also the United Kingdom, Serbia and Turkey are not included in this graphic because they would very badly distort the relations on the lower end the best relations go to Malta and Luxembourg which is basically just because they just got one university and not that many students and Arthur Iceland and one can only speculate whether things have political reasons for these distributions I'm more than certain that Iceland, Malta and Luxembourg are represented for more or less political reasons but whether Poland has been so badly represented is just up for speculation I think it could be something with have something to do with the authoritarian government in Poland but I'm not that good in Polish-EU relations to make a better guess than that why Germany is on the third place is probably because Germany has got the reputation in the process of the European university initiative to be the most eager to involve it and from my experience working inside the area Germany is and the German universities in the initiative are pushing the hardest for further integration and also which is completely unrelated to whether students are pushing for it or researchers are pushing for it or the leadership of the universities is pushing for it because on all these three areas the German and both the persons involved from Germany are pushing from my experience the hardest which is in of itself a big problem and can become even worse and now I will head over to Leonie again Thank you, Lasse. So I'm going to walk you through some concepts and projects which are important if we are talking about European education policy and things that are like because we have to understand that the European university alliances are more or less an experimental field for the different projects that the EU commission is doing to further European integration so in each of the projects or concepts could feel a whole lecture so I will be very quick about it and if you have any questions just post them through the channels. So what is mobility in the context of European education policy? So according to the European commission the European ministers have agreed to double the proportion of students in higher education completing a study or training period abroad to 20% by 2020. Support for mobility remains a core focus of the Erasmus Plus program so mobility for students is defined as either spending a study period of three to 12 months abroad which must be part of the student study program or having a traineeship or work placement abroad in enterprise for two to 12 months and this should be wherever possible integrated of the student study program and it might not be surprising to you that those ambitious mobility quotas are very hard to fill not only because we at the moment have a pandemic which more or less doesn't let people study abroad physically but also because of the social dimension so what is meant by the social dimension more or less it describes all the circumstances that an individual student faces like ability social economic background which might impact his or her or their ability to go abroad or finish their studies. So if the European higher education area wishes to address the social dimension they have to create equal opportunities in higher education in terms of access participation and successful completion of studies studying in living conditions guidance and counseling financial support and student participation in higher education governance so what this means for mobility is that there has to be a portability of financial support so if I'm getting disability benefits in Germany that I can also take them to another country where I'm studying and removing barriers providing incentives so if I want to have more mobile students I also need to address the social dimension because there are barriers which not every student can overcome and one of the biggest barriers to going abroad is the financial situation of the students but also ability or care responsibilities and so this brings me to let's say something that shouldn't be a solution to the problem but is used in some cases as a solution to the problem that mobility quotas cannot be achieved so virtual exchange and internationalization at home are buzzwords that are thrown around about this and I would call them mobility so I could make a whole talk on both of these concepts because the problem is that they are used by different people to further different agendas but generally you can say virtual exchange and internationalization at home both describe international experiences with which students can make without going abroad so this might be digitally or not digitally actually because internationalization at home modules that I have seen have also for example had the requirement of students to work in an enterprise or organization where the working language is English to have their international experience and the important thing that I want you to take away from that is behind virtual exchange and internationalization at home this is not mobility how it is defined and how student representatives are demanding it to have and most people who know what they're talking about would also never suggest to describe these offers as mobility for example the German academic exchange service the rd is doing a lot of research and best practice gathering on virtual exchange and they always say this is not mobility but there have been pushes by institutions high education institutions to soften the borders between mobility and virtual mobility in order to hit mobility quotas and save money because if you want to send more students from your institution abroad it costs you money in counseling and you will have to get the funding for them and so and oftentimes as you might know high education institutions don't have a lot of that but the eu ace the european university alliances are using the concept of virtual mobility to hit the mobility quotas because as you heard before macron wants that to wants all students who are part of a european university alliance to have some sort of international experience mobility so it pushes the member institutions of these alliances to in a way try to redefine what it means like shorter periods that are not three to twelve months for example or just counting digital forms of digital exchange as mobility so another thing that the european university alliances are a testing field for and it's going to haunt us in the future is micro credentials this definition that i have here is from the european commission a micro credential is a proof of the learning outcomes that a learner has acquired following a short transparently assessed learning experience they are awarded upon the completion of short standalone courses or modules done on site or online or in a blended format so micro credentials originated from massive open online courses mooks and for some reason the european commission has decided that micro credentials make education more inclusive is accessible a larger uptake of micro credentials could could foster education and economic innovation and contribute to a sustainable post pandemic recovery micro credentials can be provided by higher and vocational education and training institutions as well as by different types of private entities so there is also like the aspect of people earning money by offering those courses and like big enterprises there is also like if you might know that there are micro degrees micro credentials already offered by amazon and google and micro credentials as shown in the other three bullet points are really really pushed by the european commission right now they are a flagship action of the european skills agenda they're included in the september communication on achieving the european education area by 2025 and also included in the digital education action plan so and it's really emphasized that higher education should have a larger role in supporting lifelong learning and reaching out to a more diverse group of learners and this sounds awesome right but the problem is that there is no evidence that micro credentials boost innovation and inclusivity and high education institutions are set up as competitors to other providers of professional development offers like vocational schools, foxhole schulen if you might know them here in germany another problem is that the european commission seems to have a very one-sided perspective on lifelong learning so they really focus on self optimization and anticipating the needs of the labor market professional development another issue which is not addressed is who's going to pay for it because of course developing these modules these courses is going to cost money to the for the higher education institutions and i have been part of working on the recommendation of the german rector's conference on micro degrees and badges and not everything is written in there i do support and one thing that's written in there that to have cost neutrality for the higher education institutions of micro credentials they might ask the students to pay a fee for it and last but not least qui bono so who's really profiting from micro credentials are it the learners or is it the employers who don't have to pay for the professional development of their employees and i think that it's really not the learners who are benefiting if more universities are doing this but maybe this is something we can discuss in the end so another thing which is going to make our whole learning experience in the EU better fast and stronger is the european student card initiative so as it is written in the communique here from gotenburg that we are mentioning again and to support this initiative on mutual recognition develop and launch a secure electronic system for the storage and retrieval of academic diplomas to facilitate verification of authenticity so the goal is to have full deployment of the european student card during 2021 very excited to see that um so the aim is that the european student card initiative will enable every student to easily and safely identify and register themselves electronically at higher education institutions within europe by moving abroad for studies eliminating the need to complete on-site registration procedures and paperwork so the EU commission has been implementing the erasmus without paper network to achieve this and every institution who's part of erasmus will have to will be obliged to manage online learning agreements by 2021 manage inter-institutional agreements by 2022 and by 2023 to exchange student nominations and acceptances of transcripts of records um also the participating institutions will need to promote the use of the erasmus plus mobile app and by 2025 all students in europe should be able to enjoy the benefits of the european student card initiative but where is the card is what i'm asking because at the moment we only have an app and um supposedly in 2021 it will be but um there is more the european student card can do everything um it is supposed to give students the chance to access online courses and services provided at other higher education institutions and over time it shall allow students to enjoy card activities throughout europe at discounted prizes it should also be linked to use electronic identification rules to provide to authenticate students so it might be um connected to the um electronic identification that you're using in your passport for example um i leave it to your imagination what kind of data protection issues might come up with that but supposedly it will make everything great again so lasso would you like to tell us something about your experiences talking about this uh all right so um okay i will go on um so to come to the most speculative part of our talk um i have to um charge my laptop wait a moment technical break so we're going taking you into the unknown of the european degree so one of the aims of the european commission which is talked about a bit more behind the scenes because it's like more or less um a very controversial point um is creating world class european universities that can work seamlessly together across borders um there will be mutual recognition of higher education and the convergence of grades medicalation numbers and study programs so as you can see a bit like the medicalation numbers convergence might work about the european student card um and i think here we see also like the big difference between the ea ga and the ea because the ea ga is really focused on having the different um the differences of organization and structures leaving them intact in the different countries but if we want to converge all these things we will need to have our structures be more similar in the future so um one thing that might be a benefit of it is that high education institutions might be more autonomous from their national governments there might be easier mobility of researchers and students and there might student unions um all over europe might be more empowered by it but there are also threats and problems like the elimination of democracy in high education institutions um because um there are going to be complex multi-level governance structures um you see like on here in germany you can see either like on the federal level there's legislation on the national level and there's also going to be EU legislation to consider and um lasso would you like to continue yeah thank you and i'm sorry for the technical difficulties um so so the coughing one one one problem which could threat everything is the stoner top-down approach towards everybody which gets kind of like obstructed by the complex multi-level governance structures um because when we when we converge with all these with all these concepts like grades and study programs um on a european level gets way more difficult for senior student actors or researchers to influence the structure of everything so when when the study programs are converged throughout europe the fact that all the faculty student council um will have problems to bring forward their position because they have to also consider seven or six other faculty student councils um um also um the same problem as with the um excellence initiative initiative in germany can emerge um which will build the free class system of high education institutions um of basically universities of applied sciences standard universities and european universities um even though all the universities of applied sciences and the standard universities are trying to um position themselves as being equal and still in many places the the right to and give phd's to researchers advice with the standard universities and also as we have as you have seen um the risk is that there is no face-to-face teaching or way less and that has got problems enough itself but also some benefits but maybe there are other places to discuss the benefits and because the time is quite limited we have to continue with um our um conclusion yeah more than the picture thank you oh that's nearly part um yeah sorry uh nearly please um all right so um digitization is used as a tool to further european integration like by um introducing the student e-card virtual exchange possibilities and um micro credentials which are really tied to digital ways of transferring grades and having grades um recognized but the measures create an uphold a europe of two speeds um the digital solutions are seen as a cheaper way to hit mobility quotas and social dimension goals instead of addressing those problems in a real way um also the impact of the tools and structures which are being put in place is not reflected upon sufficiently because um looking at each of the initiatives projects themselves i also have a lot of um reservations about them which are not addressed and without significant engagement by those affected by these policies there is a real danger of being excluded from decision-making processes um so it is very important to ensure democratic student involvement and the possibility of bottom-up approaches and i would also really suggest to the EU commission to think about involving some gravity specialists before they are like doing things because i'm really worried and now um five minutes after time we would like to conclude our talk and thank you all kindly for your attention and would be open for your questions now so thank you so much for this very in-depth talk it was super super informative and very very interesting and for now unfortunately there are no questions yet but i think they will come up soon when we process all this input so i'm also sorry that we were so fast on some things but it's really hard to know what to not mention in a way that's super super okay i would like to invite both of you if you can spare the time to our IRC chat if there are questions coming up for now or do you want to mention anything further information that you can spend with us um i could i could tell you about how corona yeah i can tell you about how corona impacted everything because there has been a quite big impact by now which is the current thing i think i dropped it out of the european university initiatives oh but um we all know that the time frame and my call made out is completely blown away by the pandemic um most the european university initiative start the first one started to work in um of november of 2019 and most in european university alliances haven't had the opportunity to meet before the pandemic started um the one i'm in for example planned on having a meeting on the 11th of march and um by then the italian fraction from padua was on complete lockdown and couldn't leave Italy so um everything was blocked and so the the the big tip for me is if you want to do some mobility and you know that your university is in european part of the european university alliances now's the perfect time to apply for funds because there is a lot of money lying unused around and um you can easily go to one of the places because everybody wants you to be mobile so there can be some special deals and you could you just need to ask around in your local um institutions where you can apply for these grounds and also um the whole time frame is kind of gone away and um we will see how that turns out in the future but um it's it won't like no goal will be achieved by 2024 but it's kind of certain as of now well camp will come i guess well i mean they also wanted to be finished with the bologna process in 2009 and well yeah okay still going i see i see so if there are no questions i can also talk a bit more about something that worries me about the european student card yes go ahead please yeah i'm just going to go back so because if we are thinking about um the plans for this and and think it to an end of course it would mean that there would be a european student id and it would make it possible to track students across borders in a way with all the information connected and it's like really hard to know what kind of data protection is in place um about that so and if it's also connected to electronic passports so there are a lot of stuff that is a bit worrying about it but also what is more worrying is something that last and i talked about is that it we kind of feel that the european commission might not know how universities higher education institutions actually work um and maybe lasso you might want to add something about like the communication issues you are facing inside of the european university alliances yes thank you exactly um so it's the problem is that not only the european commission um knows how european higher education institutions work right now but apparently nobody knows um how other european higher education institutions work um it goes so far that when we now students can't talk about our structures we can't we don't have words to speak together and that's not because we are bad at talking english but because the structures are quite different and um all these linguistic connotations um get faded away for example we are um the the leitzig student union in german is called student art so student council but it was built on a kind of like a post-socialistic view after the fall of the gdr because it was founded on the ninth of november of 1989 so the connotation that it has something to do with like some council democracy and gets completely lost but we also don't know how the structures in spain are exactly working because it's very hard to translate fashats but into spanish and and i think that's that says a lot and i mean we we even have problems talking to our austrian colleagues in german about our institutions because even there they are difficult and different and and so we need new words and we need multilingual lexicans building a common understanding about we can even move further and even by creating this common language we are deeply converging everything and because the structures get similar and the views get similar and the student councils influence influence each other in ways we haven't had thought possible probably so that's very very interesting and it will become difficult and what it means for the student card initiative is that the ticket to how to use the transport in mobility in germany which is quite common where you pay a fee of 180 euros or something in that bracket and can use the public transportation in your city on your own island in your country and it's difficult to tell that to a european commission because germany is kind of the only place where that exists and then they want to have like one common culture offer for all students throughout europe but then what happens to the university of minster where they have a culture ticket where you can use your student cards to visit the museums and the libraries and the theaters for free just because you've got your student card and how how will you include that in the student card which will be distributed all over europe so because then the local institutions like the theaters and the museums will say like no way we're gonna make it free for every student in europe to use it if we are the only place doing so and so the commission is getting into probably quite deep problems with some of the initiatives because there are some implications of them which are going deep into the fabric of what has been created around higher education institutions throughout the countries which is also different from country to country so different that we can't even really speak about it so yeah language barrier and further difficulties but i think they will get solved i hope well what do you think you know would you use a european student card do you think it's useful to you i think it would be useful i mean i'm actually studying english so for me going abroad would be of course great and i think i mean yeah yeah of course you would use it maybe more in the beginning than the year but as he said like museums etc that would be so useful for everybody actually and they would um just really not not just use it but i'm liking the words i'm sorry no problem i think it would be so convenient for everybody for every student i'm just seeing a question in the um there are i see are there any plans to educate students in addition to the subject content or to encourage them to study more than just their subject what would you think lasso is there some intention of broadening the curricula i actually i actually think it it's it's kind of like one of the few possible benefits of the how of the word dance of the market credentials and you just i mean that it will be it will lead to the creation of weird sub subjects and i don't i mean it's it's a very very difficult question because it's so broad and we don't know how it will develop but for example my sociology institute and that's quite strict in what they teach and so on and the participation of the university of leipzig and the european university alliance and will broaden the sociology subjects at hand for me um or not for me because i'm nearly finished with my studies but you can you can use the sociology department of bergen and without many hurdles because all hurdles shall be um all walls must fall between the student study programs is kind of the official policy right now i see which we will see how that turns out that um some some warning will happen but i don't see that um the study programs get truly liberated so you start at the university with like your blank a blank study program and can just pick what you i see yeah i think so we're running a little bit out of time right now i'm really sorry to cut you off um i would really invite you again to the chat so um if there are any further questions that might go there directly to you so thank you again for this very very informative talk i will rewatch it yes and i mean people can um also reach out to us on however they want i mean over uh i'm on twitter i'm lemon green bird if you want to find me and you can just ask me questions about micro credentials for example which could feel like a whole talk me talking about it yeah and i think also lasso will be very happy to answer any questions you have about european university alliances and we are always looking for more people interested because we think it's important that people with a lot of different perspectives look on this issue and not only like those few people who are experts on that so thank you again have fun on the last day and stay healthy and we see you on our time goodbye