 Thanks for joining us and welcome back again to Open Infra-Live. It's the Open Infrastructure Foundation's new weekly show where we share production case studies, open source demos, industry conversations, and the latest updates from our global community. I'm Jimmy MacArthur and I will be your host today. It's our 11th episode and we have some great content coming up in the next few weeks as well. So we hope you can join us every Thursday at 1400 UTC. We're streaming live on YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitch, and you can also follow us. Today we have representatives from four of the Open Infra-Live Foundation's member companies. They'll be discussing some of the open source job opportunities they have available and sharing some advice along the way. Reminder, we're streaming live. We will save some time for Q&A at the end of the episode. So drop your questions in the chat throughout regardless of the platform you're on and we will answer as many as we can. Now get to your keyboards, polish your resume. This show might actually change the course of your life. Let's get started. First up we have Canonical. Hi Camille, welcome. Hi Jimmy, thanks for having me. So to introduce myself, I'm Camille Rodriguez from Canonical. I've been working there for about two years. My main role is a field software engineer. So I work directly with customers in deploying, designing the public cloud deals and private cloud opportunity we have with them. But I'm also the leader of the women's resource group in the company and I am a hiring lead for the field engineering department. So the way we do recruitment at Canonical we try really to assess if a candidate that have lied to a role in my department would be the best fit for this department but also if they would fit anywhere else. So I'm collaborating always with my other hiring leads colleagues to see where someone would fit the best. So to talk a little bit about the company Canonical, it's widely known for developing Ubuntu. Of course Ubuntu is the free and most widespread open source Linux distribution. It's also the most used Linux district on public clouds. So if you think about everyone that works to develop Ubuntu, we have software development teams for each of its core aspects. So if you think about the desktop, server images, we have people focusing on the cloud images, the security, the kernel. So all of these aspects you can find jobs for that at Canonical. However Ubuntu is not the only thing we work on. We have several different product and departments in the company. We are heavily involved in the open infrastructure community. So we have people deploying, developing and testing OpenStack. We have people working on Kubernetes. And also we have focused a lot in the last few months on applications that you can deploy on top of those clouds. So if you think, for example, Kubeflow, that's a AI ML pipeline for Kubernetes and other applications and operators that we can develop for Kubernetes or OpenStack. So if you think about jobs, we have a lot of people focusing on those new operators for Kubernetes and that's also a big focus currently in the company. Regarding recruitment, this year is a huge year for creating at Canonical. We have hundreds of jobs open. We are growing very strongly this year with a view to do an IPO in a few years. So if you ever wanted to contribute to Ubuntu or one of our other product, I think this is a year to apply. Of course, if you go on the website that you can see on the screen, there's a lot of jobs in engineering. So if you think software development, field engineering, IoT, we have support teams, managed services teams, all of those things are recruiting a lot. But there's also other sides of the company. I mean, if you're looking for marketing, HR, product managers, there's also openings there. And then if you're a more senior person, we have also management and like manager and director level positions open. Then another aspect I wanted to mention is a little bit about the culture and the perks of working for us. One of the aspects of the culture at Canonical is that every role is a tech role. So even if you're not in engineering directly, there's a high expectation of competence and passion for technology pretty much regardless of your title. Our mission is to deliver open source to the world and we want people really passionate about that. Another aspect that I find really interesting since I've been working there is that we're a fully distributed organization. So most people work from home. And I know now with COVID, everyone's from home right now. But the company has been doing that since 2004. So it's really at the core of how we work. So of course, you don't need to commute more time at home. But it also means that we're looking for people with really great communication skills, people that have initiative that are exceptional and that will get projects done without too much oversight. So that's some of the things we look into for candidates that apply. Once COVID is done, we'll resume travel. All the roles have some travel included. I'd say the minimum travel people typically do is twice a year. We do an internal conference. So everyone that worked from home get to meet their colleagues. And last time we traveled was to South Africa. So that was pretty amazing to me. And then depending on the job, if you're looking to travel a lot more, you could apply for a job like the one I have, field engineering, where I go to events. I go to meet customers. And we really get to see the world a little bit more. The last aspect I want to touch on before I give it back to Jimmy is the fact that the company has been focusing a lot on diversity and inclusion over the last year. And it's super important to me as a woman tech. And we've been creating different resource groups last year where I mentioned, of course, the women's resource group, but we have also groups focusing on disabilities and accessibility, culture, identity. We have a group of four parents, for example. So this has shaped a little bit how we focus on making our companies to produce diverse. And it also affects a little bit the recruitment process. So we've changed a few things in the last month in how we scan candidates coming through. So one example to reduce bias and to make sure we're objective when we assess if someone's good for companies that we added an anonymous written interview in their steps. So I wanted to highlight that because it's super important to me that we make sure that people from all the different backgrounds are able to apply and join our fantastic company. And to remind you, if you want to apply and get a chance to work with me, apply at cannibal.com slash careers. Thank you, Jimmy. I'll give it back to you. Thanks, Camille. That was great. So next, we're going to hear from our friends at OVH. Laurel, take it away. Yeah, thank you, Jimmy. Hi, everyone. So today, I'm glad to talk about OVH to give you a few words about the company who we are. And of course, we have plenty of jobs open and to give you maybe the will to join us. So to start, I would like to talk about our values because it's something very significant in the company. And that's the main first thing we check when we're doing interviews to see if we can find a match between someone and the company that's really important for us. So our values, who we are, we are a company where we live an adventure all together because we trust each other. That's something very important for us. And when you join the company, by default, everyone trusts each other by doing what people want to do. And develop themselves in the company. Working together also something that is significant because we are organizing small teams of few number of people that really on a day-to-day basis work with a lot of communication, coordination, all together. Patient, we have the chance to have plenty of people in the company passionate by the adventure. We live all together, but also the technology, of course. And that's something really important. Also, disruption. Disruption, we believe that disruption is not tech for tech at OVH, but it's something we want because it enables our customers a kind of freedom because we want to do things differently with transparency for our customers and maybe differently than others do in our competitors. And the last thing is the responsibility. For instance, we want to minimize the impact we have for the planet. We want to think for our children to build some solutions about digitalization that have the less impact as possible for the planet. Next, about our position on the market of this cloud market with many competitors, very big ones. We believe we can build in Europe OVH, but also all other partners are an alternative in the cloud market. We have in Europe, we want to offer some solutions that fulfill the values of European citizens, but also the laws and offer to our customers the capability to choose what is the laws they want to fulfill, depending on their country, the localizations. And we take care to build nice auditions that offer to our customers a safe place for the data. Also, as I was saying, the ecosystem in Europe, we don't aim to build alone this cloud alternative. We are working with many companies, different ones all together to offer some solutions to our customers. Few figures about OVH. We like figures because we have scaling and quite interesting. We own 30 data centers. We have more than 1.5 million customers. We have 2,500 employees around the world, many in France, but also in North America and in other countries in Europe and also in Asia and Pacific. Regarding public cloud, which is our offer running on OpenStack, we are running 400,000 VMs. So as you can imagine, scaling is a hot topic for us. What could I say maybe quickly also about our efficiency of our data centers where you can see that we are able to reach some interesting figures with a 1.09 ratio on average ratio because of some technology we built some years ago. For instance, the water cooling in our data centers that enable us to be very efficient and to make our servers work in these data centers. Then about our locations. Where are our offices on the next slide? Yes, so we have many locations in Europe, of course, but not only we have some people working in North America, in India, Singapore and Australia, and globally we are open to hire people in all those different countries. About our, yes, vertically integrated model, something interesting because some people don't know OVH but don't know that we do everything at OVH from the beginning until the product because we have our own data centers. We build our own servers and you can see pictures on the upper right of what does it look. It doesn't look like the servers you are used to see. We build our own racks. We manage the delivery of servers in different locations. We have two factories to build those servers, one in France, one in Canada, and we are able to build servers that fit the needs of our customers with an efficiency way because we are building our own servers and also because we want to be lean and to minimize the impact we have on the planet. We also have a way to refurbish all our hardware so we can have a life of many years of every single component. Let's talk a bit about our offer where we are running OpenStack and where we are looking for new employees, our public cloud solution which is based on only open source technology, for instance OpenStack of course but also SAV, Kubernetes. With those technologies we build basically some compute, network storage services, some platform as a service solutions and also on top of that we offer with our ecosystem of partners some artificial intelligence, machine learning, databases, many different portfolio services. About hiring, just a quick overview about the different open positions we have. So basically we have two kind of positions, Site Reliability Engineer. We are an operator. We are not a full software company so we have a large team of SREs in all our different units and we are also looking for some developers for OpenStack of course, also on SAV for our storage solutions and also around Kubernetes. I was saying that we are 2,500 people in the company. We have today around 200 open positions. We are growing by 10-20% every year, our staff. So we always have positions open in those different teams. To finish, just sharing with you the link if you want to have a look about our different offers online and if you have any questions, if you want to talk a bit more about things I mentioned or any other topics you would like about our different teams, organization, open position, feel free to contact me. You can see here my direct email. Thank you very much. Thank you, Laurel. And remember you can also throw questions in the chat. So if it's pressing and urgent, we can maybe get it answered live today. Alright, so next up we have the whole crew from OpenTelecom Cloud. Hey, hello from the magenta side of OpenStack and warm welcome from myself. My name is Niels. I'm from Germany. And together with me are my colleagues, Zoltan from Hungary and Bernhard also from the other end of Germany, more or less. Yeah, talking about OpenTelecom Cloud, can we have the next slide, please? This is actually the public cloud of Deutsche Telecom. And the public cloud of Deutsche Telecom is operated by a subsidiary and that is T-Systems. T-Systems is more or less the company that employed us and the company that is looking for you. We are one of the largest public clouds in Europe and that means that we are really running OpenStack on scale. I prepared here a number of key figures with you and maybe we can have a look starting at the top right flexible servers. So from very small one CPU, one gigabyte RAM instance up to really large ones like 200, more than 200 virtual cores and three terabytes of RAM, lots of different CPU types, bare metal servers, VMs, containers and so on. You can have pretty much everything what you want from a public cloud. So for example, we run currently about 18K rack assets like servers, switches, routers and stuff like that, half a million of cores about and more than 3,300 terabytes of RAM at the moment, at the last time I checked that the tech falls. So we are running OpenStack and we are actually 100% Devcore compliant. Just yesterday I talked to my colleagues who uploaded a new testing template. So we really have to upload this to you folks of the Open Infrastructure Foundation so everyone can see and marvel at our Devcore compliance. We have a lot of connectivity which is pretty obvious as being one of the major telco provider in Europe. We have a lot of pass services as well like managed Kubernetes, lots of different types of databases, SQL and NoSQL, big data, AI, machine learning and the like. So how do we do high availability security? We run a surprisingly small number of regions. These are just two of them. One is physically in Germany and not one in the Netherlands. But these are heavily on scale and each contain three AZs so that we can be compliant of all requirements for example of European GDPR regulations and stuff like that. So that is also one special feature of Open Telecom Cloud that we are able to scale to such extent in just two regions. Well, we are proud of our block and object storage because currently we surpassed the range of more than 500 petabytes so half an exabyte of block and object storage in different types. And we have a really cool team of about 350 colleagues especially focused on the Open Telecom Cloud. Obviously his systems are 20, almost 30,000 colleagues and in Deutsche Telecom we are about half a million colleagues but the team, especially the team of the Open Telecom Cloud is very focused and distributed on mainly four different hubs in Germany, Hungary, Slovakia and Russia but also in different places. So we also apply away from office schema in our workplaces. So at the last number I counted more than 15 different nationalities. Before I hand over to Zoltan here some example activities. So we are actually contributing to OpenStack at least in some parts. So for example in OpenStack SDK and CLI the command line interface we are heavily contributing also upstream and a complete team is dedicated on that. The same applies to Ansible collections for modules that create cloud resources or creating and providing and maintaining the providers for Terraform, for Rancher and for other adjacent software for OpenStack. I brought you here a short example on what our engineers and architects actually do with this code. So this is an example facilitating the SDK, creating a new server in Python code which comes in handy especially if you have tasks to automate some workloads either for internal use or for customers. And with that I'd like to hand over to Zoltan. Thanks Nils. My name is Zoltan Gombar. Hi everyone from Hungary. I'm head of operations of OpenTelecom Cloud. We are hiring for our cloud operations team. We operate our cloud with OGI methodology. People are assigned to squads that have end-to-end responsibilities for the different cloud components. As you can see on this map, our data centers are located in Germany and in the Netherlands as Nils also mentioned. But we have a European operations team with more than 120 colleagues in Slovakia, Germany and Hungary. We support home office work but for those colleagues who prefer working in our offices, we have modern workplaces arranged with new post-COVID work environments requirements. So like proper distances between desks, maximum hygiene in the office and so on. We provide a competitive compensation package with bonus cafeteria or you can move package and health insurance. So please contact us if you are familiar with any of the listed knowledge areas or importantly if you are eager to learn always new technologies and work methods. So here I give over the word to Bernhard. Thank you. Thank you. Over to the next slide. So let me only summarize. If you want to learn how OpenStack runs at scale and what are the challenges with that and if you don't do things twice and the first time you do something twice, you always automate it. So if you want to join a super team working in agile style, having a very trusted relationship to each other, then you are right with us. You can join us in let's say two major directions. One is more in the direction of the customer success engineering which is a deep dive engineer but that works directly with customers or you join us in a senior engineer role and then you are working at the back end of the cloud and you see all the operations that are connected with OpenStack at scale. So go to telecom.com and carriers and search for OTC. Back to the room. Thank you. Hi, thanks everyone. Appreciate it. That was a great presentation. Okay, next up we will have white stack. Okay, so thank you. All right. Hello. Jim Petro, take it away. Yes, Jimmy, thanks. My name is Jim Pietro Lavado. I work at WhiteStack as a telco cloud senior architect. I'm based in Lima, Peru and actually most of the company is based in countries in Latin America even though we have a global vision and we are growing a lot lately. So let me tell you more about WhiteStack. First of all, by mentioning why we exist since WhiteStack originally belongs to a region that is a little bit behind other countries in terms of connectivity. We, first of all, prioritize our actions related to things that would take our countries in this region more digitalized, more connected, more developed and then, of course, applying this learning to other regions that face the same challenges. So that's the main thing that motivates us and you can maybe conclude that for doing that and being a technology company we work with telcos, with operators that are the actual companies that are connecting the world, right? So we are a company that enables them to do it efficiently. And how we achieve it? Well, we believe a lot in local talent. I mean, closer to our customers. So in Latin America, we have a challenge where most of them know how it comes from abroad. So we wanted to change that and originate these expertise locally in these countries so that operators, which are our customers enjoy more and have more access to immediate answers and know how. So that's, I think, our key strategy on how we do better than maybe other companies offering services from abroad. And, of course, we take advantage of the latest technological innovations and to be more precise, open technologies. We believe a lot in open source, not only for software in the software part, but also in the hardware part where we work with projects like the Open Compute Project and Telecom Infra Project to also have access to hardware based in open hardware specifications. And in the road to that, we are starting working with universities to promote careers related to engineering. And in our region and, of course, to be able to produce more technology from this side of the world. And finally, what do we do? We build a world-class networks and clouds with a lot of efficiency and with distributed fashion because we believe that services are better when they are closer to the users. So that's what we help our customers, which are, again, telco operators, do. And, well, what our... I would like to share what the people that work at Widesack believe or what they feel about their job and it was very nice to see this at the beginning of this year to see that the employees of Widesack, the collaborators, when they think in Widesack, they think about innovation, challenge, agility, but also our main values, which are related to honesty, to justice, to responsibility, but also to transcendency. We want to leave something in this world. And that's maybe what identifies our group the most. So doing a little bit of a double-click in what we do at the end, we collaborate in and contribute and work with open-source projects. You will see in the following diagram the kind of projects that we work with in the cloud above. You can see OpenStack, but also open-source manual, Kubernetes, Cep, Magma. So everything that is mature and that we know that we can use and collaborate with to build efficient solutions for telcos. So this is our vision to build products that we support and we take full responsibility for them. But they are based in open-source components. And again, not only software, but also hardware. We, for example, collaborate in and lead also development teams in the open-source manual project. Also work a lot with OpenStack and integration between those projects to build a complete NFB stack that is a technology that operators lately need a lot. And in the hardware part, we collaborate a lot with the telecom infra-project with optical and switching platforms. We collaborate a lot with the telecom infra-project. And at the end, we build these projects that you can see in the next part below. And these products, these branded products have these open technologies in their core. Okay, so what we are, this vision has helped us grow a lot and we are doing so mainly in Latin America today, but already are transitioning to global markets as we start having interest and some customers in Europe. And given the pandemic situation as well, this has helped us attract talent from many parts of the world. And so there are remote opportunities that you can find in that link and also opportunities that are related to specific countries where we have more customers today. But you will see some jobs there, but we are always looking for talent anyway, despite the official listings. So you can also write us in the contact form. We are very, well, looking forward to getting in touch with talented people that can work from any part of the world and contribute with our vision, which is at the end producing or building efficient networks and clouds based on open technologies. So what we basically offer and what people value the most when they join WhiteStack is the flexibility we have in schedule, for example, in your balance of the time you need and non-stop learning. This is a very challenging company in that sense where you immediately are leading an interesting project, of course, with the help of more experienced people. And we are right now growing exponentially. We are still a small company, relatively small, but we invite people to be part of this exponential growth. So follow us for future opportunities and get in touch with us. We would love to get in touch with people that believe in the same vision we believe in. You will have some links that you can access and get in touch with our team. Excellent. Thank you, Gian Pietro. And let me also mention WhiteStack does trainings as well, wearing lots of hats over there. You can find their training listings in opensack.org slash marketplace. And speaking of the marketplace in training, the certified OpenStack administrator exam opensack.org slash COA is administered by another one of our member companies, Merantis. So just wanted to give a shout out to them and for those of you out looking for jobs, something to consider is taking the COA. Plenty of companies are requiring it and asking for that type of knowledge. So go out there. You can even take WhiteStack's trainings or Merantis' trainings. We've got lots of them. So also, next up, I would like to make a mention for our friends at Facebook. They were unable to join today for legal reasons. However, we wanted to pop up their job offer. It's around one of our open infrastructure projects, and I think we have a slide for the Facebook. Maybe. No? Okay. Well, we'll throw it in the chat if we've got it. All right. Next up, let's take a little time for some questions if we can and get all my folks back on camera. Hi, everybody. Here we are. Thanks for popping back in. So I wanted to lean on a question. OVH brought up one of the things that they really rely on for hiring is making sure that people are a good cultural fit. And so I wanted to ask the other folks here, how do you address corporate culture and hiring practices in your organizations? I can go ahead. We'll talk at the same time. In our hiring process, we have a first meeting-greed interview where we discuss with the person their interests, see if they applied to the correct role for what fits their capacity, knowledge, and interests. And we see how interested and passionate they are about open source, which is the main value we look for, collaboration. So it's in the discussion with the candidates when they apply in the first interview, typically. Cool. Gian Pietro? Yes. Well, for us, the hiring process related to cultural fit started becoming easier when we started communicating our values during the interviews. So not only asking if there is a match, of course, directly, but taking the conversation through examples of experiences that the candidate had that we can match to our four main values that we recognize through a long exercise. So this match with the values, I think is the core point of having this cultural fit into the company. Excellent. Nils, any thoughts on that? Yeah, so if we are talking about culture, then we are a truly international company anyway, being distributed to so many different countries and also talking with so many different nationalities as I outlined in my presentation already. But if it comes to tech culture, this is just another dimension on this. So if you are already running small pet projects or if you ever have deployed a DevStack instance on your own computer or in your LAPS computer, that is something that we ask usually during the hiring process to see if the mindset, the technology mindset is fitting. And it was in the past and we really plan to do so in the future. Excellent. I wanted to bring up also, Camille had mentioned diversity at Canonical. It is something that is a big effort in the tech industry especially, and I know there is lots of effort towards it from the Open Infrastructure Foundation as well. So Laurent, did you have any thoughts around diversity in tech and how OVH is addressing that? Well, our main focus, I would say our first one is our customers. So if we talk about diversity in terms of solutions we offer to our customers, yes, we are not a dogmatic company in terms of solutions. We are using OpenStack, we are using open source solutions but we are also offering some solutions that are not open source because our motivation is to answer to the need of our customers. So that's the way I would say we think about diversity for our customers internally. We are a worldwide company. Of course, we first started in France, in Europe so it's a location where we have the most biggest number of employees but it's a challenge for us to be honest but we are more and more a global company with many people in North America and more and more in Asia. All right. I wanted to speak specifically to open source strategy and how that differentiates jobs in the tech field. Whoa! And we're joined by Mark Shubbleworth, surprise visitor. Hi Mark, welcome. Hello, how are you all? Great, how are you? Perhaps Mark, you can take this one. What differentiates the job opportunities in open source? Oh, I don't want to trump the existing speaker, Lauren. You were talking to that. Do you want to go ahead? Sorry, sorry. There you go. I'll take the next one. Lauren? Yes. Sorry. So what differentiates a job in open source from other tech industry jobs? Well, that's something we take care on regarding tech skills experience of people we hire in my group as we are running only open source technologies is to get this experience and for us it's even more important that having a large experience regarding OpenStack or Kubernetes or any special solution we are playing with because this way to work in an open source world is very different, very specific in terms of mindset, but also in terms of working with the community, how you can share what you do, work with people in different companies with different goals. So to be used to that environment is I think something that makes a difference between a candidate and another one, for sure. I would like to add to Lauren that people, for example in WhiteStack that the work in open source projects are really excited with exchanging experiences with people from other countries, other perspectives, and so this collaboration is special and helps grow differently as a professional. So I think that's very valuable for anybody. Excellent. For me there's something really special about open source which is that it often ends up being bigger and more interesting than you even imagined that it could be. So a lot of the difference between open source software and proprietary software is that people can take open source software and change it in ways that the original creates as the software didn't imagine. And so you always have this amazing experience when you build something because you have a picture in your mind of what people want and what people are going to do with it and the impact that it's going to have on the world. But because it's open source it can sometimes end up having a much bigger impact and be used in ways that are much very unexpected or very brilliant. And that I think is very special in open source, that you're not only contributing something that can be used in a much more egalitarian way but you're also building stuff that can become things that you didn't even imagine. And I think that's unbeatable if you care about the role of technology in society. You're doing something very meaningful when you work on open source. So your Jimmy asked what differentiates typical DevOps roles and open source roles? And I would say that it's not so much about an exclusive or talking technical terms but more an implication. So if you want to be good at DevOps you have to be a good user of open source. We lost you Nils. Oh, because using those technologies those tools and features we have in the open source world just only enable you to do proper DevOps activities like automating stuff and scaling up systems and setups and so on. So that's why I think both work together and require each other. All very good answers. So we have a question that came in from the chat that is regarding time zones. We know very well that in open source development it's a 24-hour thing, it's often asynchronous. So are your companies flexible enough to allow people to work from different time zones and how do you handle that? I'll throw to Camille. Yeah, that's a good question. Well, since I'm a field engineer I work with people with different time zones. Typically at Canonical we split it between the Americas, EMEA and APAC and so I work with people from Canada, United States and Latin America in my team directly and then we have the people that do the same thing. So that way you get some overlap on your work day but you also have the freedom to live where you want. And I know almost all of you have data centers in multiple countries so this has got to be something that affects you as well. All right. I wanted to ask a question around upstream. What amount of time, if any, how your employees to work upstream and do you consider that an important part of the open source process? Mark? Yeah, I think. Oh, sorry. Sure, I'll have a stab at that. So I mean I think one of the most interesting things you can get to do in a company that works around open source is lead and upstream project will be a significant contributor to an upstream project. It's a substantial responsibility. A lot of people don't realize that to do it properly you effectively have to accept that you're working for people who don't pay right and who want things from you that you maybe didn't plan to do or so on. So it takes a special kind of commitment to do it but it is probably one of the most important things that you do get to do when you're working for a company associated with open source. I do think that there are many different ways to support the open source movement and one of the first things that we did in the Ubuntu community was we gave membership rights to people who contributed to translations, people who contributed to advocacy, people who contributed to the community, to documentation and so on. And sometimes I think upstream communities can take a very narrow view of what is actually useful for them. One of the big things I think that upstream communities often forget is that the software that they put on GitHub isn't done. It isn't done because it still leaves a lot of work for people who are going to operationalize that and live with that for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And so we tend to take the view that we have to be responsible for the whole experience that people have with open source. The start to the finish. That is upstream. And we very much take the view that anything that we've changed that's relevant for upstream should go to upstream. So in a sense everybody's contributing to upstream. But we also take the sense that we're quite comfortable asking people to work on the parts of the problem that go to the usefulness of that software for the world in how it gets packaged, how it gets security patched, how it gets updated, how it gets operated, how it gets integrated. Those are really, really important things in terms of actually enabling people to get the benefit from upstream. So if you work for an open source company and you get to work upstream upstream, don't forget that you're really working for a bunch of other people and that's a big responsibility. And then also if you're working for an open source company and you're not working for upstream, you're probably still working on the important parts of the problem with regards to the impact that open source has in people's lives. And I think that's really, really important to their minds. Anybody else want to comment on that one? Maybe. Yeah, I can just agree to your mark. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead, sorry. No worries. It's fine. Okay. So I can just agree with you, Mark. Mark on upstream contributions and that's why we spent a considerable time of our workforce, of our development, direct development workforce on QA. So we get our open stack from a vendor and we do a lot of QA and do a lot of enhancement on top of that. So taking this software and making a product from it. But that's not the only way we interact with the open source community. We also directly are involved and engaged in the upstream open stack community. So for example, several of our colleagues are core committers in several open stack projects. We have even a team lead for open stack SDK for example working for us and that is an important part of our job. But of course, depending on which team which squad as we call it you work at open telecom cloud this may have a different focus. So some of the positions that we have involve more or less full time upstream commitment why others doing some scaling work at the back end of the compute the network or the storage teams have not so much to do with direct contributing to the action repositories but more on configure and enhance the system itself. All right. Laurent or Gian Pietro? Yes, quickly what I wanted to add globally is the same as under what needs and markets plan at OVH we we open source we share everything we can because sharing, opening our code is a way to guarantee the freedom for our customers. That's the main goal why we do that every time it's possible. And of course it depends of different teams and different software and where we are if I take the example of open stack today we are running after five years an infrastructure of 400,000 VMs so upgrading an open stack infrastructure is a big challenge most of you may know especially when you have that scale so we would like to be as close as possible of where the community is but unfortunately it's not the case and we are trying to fulfill the gap to be capable to invest more directly and share to the community what we do as development if in the near future we believe we invest more than what we do today. Gian Pietro Yes, I just wanted to add that and also connected to what Mark mentioned about what is missing in the upstream code to get it to an operation and make it clear proof there is a lot of work that we do in terms of connecting different or integrating different open source projects productizing them and in testing and QA and I would say that at least at this point in time our upstream work is like 20% and is very important but the other 80 is spent on taking that to an integrated solution that can be consumable by telcos. Gian Pietro Excellent. Well listen, I want to say thank you to everyone you all were super interesting, it's great to hear about the job offers you have out there I think what we're seeing in general in the community are lots and lots of job opportunities so if you're out there looking check out any of our fine companies here Canonical, OVH WhiteStack the open telecom crew and thanks to everybody we hope that you'll join us next week, we have a great episode lined up we're super excited about we've got Paul Miller from Wind River he's going to be joining us to discuss building the intelligent edge with open source technologies so you don't want to miss it and mark your calendars we'll see you next Thursday at 1400 UTC thank you again to all our speakers we'll see you next week on Open Info Live Gian Pietro Thank you come magenta thank you bye bye