 the public comment portion. The commissioner will call on you individually. But please use this time to familiarize yourself. If you have any last minute questions, please feel free to do so now. We'll be starting in a minute and a half. Thank you. One minute to air. 20 seconds. You're on the air. Good afternoon. Welcome to the Durham Planning Commission. The members of the Durham Planning Commission have been appointed by the City Council and the County Board of Commissioners as an advisory board to the elected officials. You should know that the elected officials have the final vote on any issue before us tonight. Tonight's meeting is being held virtually using the Zoom virtual meeting platform. In this virtual meeting platform, public participants do not have any ability to talk or be seen on video by default. Speakers will be given the ability to speak at the appropriate time in the meeting. If you have pre-registered, your name will be called at the appropriate time for you to make your comments, just like in an in-person public hearing. If you called in before the meeting started and staff was able to get your information, your name will also be called to speak at the appropriate time as normal. You may also call in during the meeting tonight using the phone number listed at the bottom of your screen for those of you watching live from home. If you call in during the meeting, you will need to wait until the particular public hearing you are interested in starts. After all of the pre-registered speakers have shared their comments, I will ask if there is anyone else wishing to speak. At that point, you will need to digitally raise your hand by pressing star nine on your phone. And when recognized, state your name and address and make your public comments. Public comment is not taken unless an attendee is called upon by a commissioner. I needed to add that particular point because we're in a different environment and once I closed a public hearing, then that is the only way for individuals then to make a comment. And finally, all motions are stated in the affirmative. So if a motion fails or ties, the recommendation is for denial. Thank you. May I have the role called please? Good evening commissioners. Commissioner Williams. Commissioner Morgan. Here. Commissioner Johnson. Present. Commissioner Brian. Present. Commissioner Durkin. Here. Commissioner Alchark. Here. Vice Busby. Here. Chair Hyman. Present. Commissioner Miller. Present. Commissioner Kenchin. Present. Commissioner Santiago. Here. Commissioner Baker. Here. Commissioner Love. Present. And Commissioner McIver. Present. Here. Chair, at this time I wanted to let you know that I spoke with Commissioner Williams and she was unable to join the meeting yesterday due to some technical issues. I don't know if she would like to request an excused absence, but I wanted to bring that up. But I did hear from her. It was just we were in the middle of the meeting and we were unable to make contact. Madam Chair, Tom Miller, commission member. I move that we excuse commission member Williams from attendance of yesterday's meeting. Seconded. Thank you. Motion by Commissioner Miller, seconded by Commissioner Brian that we grant an excused absence to Commissioner Williams for yesterday's meeting. All in favor of this motion, may we have a roll call vote please. Commissioner Morgan. Yes. Commissioner Johnson. Yes. Commissioner Brian. Yes. Commissioner Durkin. Yes. Commissioner Al Turk. Yes. Commissioner Busby. Yes. Chair Hyman. Yes. Commissioner Miller. Yes. Commissioner Kenchin. Yes. Commissioner Santiago. Yes. Commissioner Baker. Yes. Commissioner Lowe. Yes. And Commissioner MacIver. Yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Do are there any adjustments to the agenda at this time? Chair Hyman, there are no adjustments to the agenda to note for the record that all advertisements and legal notice were that were required per state and local law were carried out and affidavits for those are on the planning department. Thank you. We are ready for our public hearings, public hearing comprehensive plan future land use map amendments with concurrent zoning map changes. So we have two items to deal with per case. Our first case, case number A190016 and Z1900043 Old Oxford Road. May I have the staff report please. Good evening. This is Jamie Sonjak with the planning department. I will be presenting case number A1900016 Z1900043. This is Old Oxford Road. First slide. The applicant Pam Porter with TMTLA associates has requested a rezoning and future land use map change for the site generally located at 955 Old Oxford Road. The site is 43.74 acres and there is a pending annexation petition associated with this request. The applicant proposes to change the future land use designation which is industrial and commercial to low, medium density residential. And they requested a zoning change from industrial light and commercial center with a development plan to plan development residential 4.802. With a development plan for up to 65 single family detached residential units and 145 townhouse units. Next slide. The aerial represents the site highlighted in red. It fronts on East Carver Street and Old Oxford Road. Next slide. The following slides depict the site and some of the surroundings. As noted in the staff report the area has been experiencing a lot of residential growth both existing and planned. Directly West. There is a pending zoning map change which you'll hear tonight also. That has a development plan to allow for up to 675 apartment townhouse and single family units. There is residential development further west of that and south. And the staff report that you've been provided goes into detail in terms of the various developments including villages at independent park, Magnolia Creek phase 2 and 3, townhouse units south of Ben Franklin Boulevard, various garden departments along Carver Creek and Stratton Place single family development. There are also the Durham Housing Authority Apartments, additional single family development north of Old Oxford Road along Cub Creek Road. There are additional single family along Old Fish Dam Road to the northeast of the site along Old Oxford Road. There are warehouse and self-storage facilities, public service utilities as well as the Sandy Ridge Elementary School. To the south of the property there is a rezoning request with a development plan for up to 100,000 square feet of commercial space. To the north is the state of North Carolina land which is undeveloped and within the open space and recreation future land use designation. Next slide. The context map shows the existing zoning on the right and the proposed plan development residential on the left. The property is located within the suburban development here just north of the urban tier and it falls within the Falls Jordan District B Watershed Protection Overlay Zone. The future land use map designation the site is currently industrial and commercial which is shown on the left and the applicant is seeking a change to low medium density residential which is shown on the right. In terms of the development plan you'll have to just orient yourself a little bit here. The slide shows the development plan with north to the left. The development plan shows the access points, the building and parking envelope, 100-foot riparian buffers, 10-foot no-build areas, street coverage areas, project boundary buffers and you can see also shown on this slide there is a connection to the planned development which is the next case you'll hear about to the west. The plan also identifies the density and the unit number on the map as well. Next slide. In terms of the text commands I'm just going to highlight a couple of them. The applicant is providing a mixture of housing types with up to single with up to 65 single family detached units and 145 townhouse units. They have included a variety of transportation improvements identified within the transportation impact analysis and there is a text commitment also addressing the recommendations of the North Carolina Heritage Program. Next slide. The applicant has also proffered several text commitments that have been reviewed by staff and found to be acceptable. I will just read them into the record. The developer shall make a $25,200 donation to the Affordable Housing Fund prior to the issuance of the first certificate of occupancy. The developer shall make a $19,000 donation to the Durham public schools prior to the issuance of the first certificate of occupancy. A minimum of two of the following shall be incorporated in the open space elements, gazebo, dog park, pavilion, barbecue area, multi-purpose green space, multi-use field, path with benches, the location and the layout of these items to be determined at first site plan. And the last one is the interior townhouse unit shall contain one car garages and exterior townhouse town there should be townhouse townhouse unit shall contain two car garages. Next slide. The development plan also provides in addition to the graphic commitments discussed earlier design commitments which include a variety of roof types, exterior building materials and architectural styles. Next slide. The next two slides provide a summary of the applicable comprehensive plan policies. The proposed zoning is not consistent with the future land use designation of industrial and commercial but the applicant is seeking a future land use map amendment to low medium density residential which would be consistent with the rezoning request. The proposal is consistent with the other comprehensive plan policies including those listed on this screen and the next screen and provided in further detail in the staff report. Next slide. This is just the additional comp plan policies that have been reviewed. Next slide. Staff determines that these requests are consistent with the comprehensive plan and applicable policies and ordinances and I will be happy to answer any questions that you have. Thank you. Thank you. I do have a number of individuals who have signed up to speak but I want to deal with the issue of time before I start calling the names of applicants. It has been suggested and then I'll leave it open to the commissioners to decide. Both the city council and the commissioners use a three-minute rule for individuals to speak. In this virtual environment, I'm going to ask that either we do that or I'm open to any other suggestions from the commissioners as far as time. Madam Chair, I think that's a good suggestion. I would support that. Madam Chair, Tom Miller, we're still new with this and I'm very concerned about the overall impact meeting this way has on the way for the public to participate in a meaningful way. Before we make a hard and fast rule, we'll strike that. I'm untroubled by having a general rule of three minutes per speaker but I also don't want to by imposing that now that the speakers have arrived and having made a plan to make their presentations have them scrambling around unable to fulfill their plan. Can we ask the proponents and the opponents if they have a planned way of speaking and then if they do, I would like to accommodate that if it's reasonable to do so and then we may discover about what we can expect in terms of who plans to speak and for how long. I mean, I'm confident that the developers will probably bring their presentation in at under 10 minutes total but for members of the public for whom our rules are difficult under the best of circumstances and very difficult under these circumstances, I want to make sure that we know what they came planned to do before we make rules that might either assist them or defeat them. Thank you. Can we just ask them? I think we're going to have to make a decision about the time so are you making a recommendation that we let them everyone speak? If that's the recommendation, I'm open, we can vote on it. No, Madam Chairman, that's not the recommendation. The recommendation is let's ask the participants what they came prepared to do and say and how they how much time they thought they who's going to speak and how much time they were going to take doing it before we open the public hearing on this case. I'm going to have to defer to the staff since they're looking at a listing of all of these individuals as to how we may ask them about their presentations. Madam Chair, Sarah Young with the Planning Department, I'm looking at the list and there are 22 folks from the public in attendance. I think it would be challenging to ask those folks individually. One thing that we could do is we can ask those folks to digitally raise their hand if they believe that they can make their comments within the three minutes that you've proposed and staff can take a quick look at that. We did have an individual who contacted us ahead of time and shared with us their plans. They knew that there would be time limits although we did not know exactly what the time limits would be and it's my understanding that they have organized themselves to each have kind of a piece of their presentation that will follow kind of in an order. So my suggestion is to just ask the attendees to digitally raise their hand if they believe that three minutes is acceptable for them to make their comments and then we can go from there. That would be good to know. Thank you, Sarah. Sure. And just as a reminder for anyone that may have called in on the phone, the way that you digitally raise your hand is by pressing star nine on your phone keypad. Okay, I will start the list. The first, let me go. Well, I have an applicant who has raised his hand. Okay, let me just go down the list. Tim Syvers. Yes, ma'am. I'm just available for questions. Celeste Richie. Her hand is up. Celeste Richie. Her hand is up, Madam Chair. So she can accomplish a three minute testimony. Okay, so as I identify them, so the ones with the hands raised can do it in three minutes. Okay. So then, so the others have not identified themselves. So does that mean that they can't? Madam Chair, may I just say, I think it's difficult to ask everyone if they can do it under three minutes because then if someone cannot do it and their hand is not raised, then I'm not sure there's a way for us to ask them to speak or say, you know, do you need more time? So I guess my suggestion would be that we vote and give everyone three minutes like we do usually. And then, and if people want to see their time, can see their time to others, they can do so at them, you know, during their three minutes, right? Also, because we have two cases, we don't know if the people who are not raising their hand want to speak on this case or the others' case. So it just seems like maybe we should decide on three minutes. I think that's a fair way to do it. But that's, yeah. Thank you. Why don't we? Madam Chair, I would just add that for those in attendance, I would agree with Commissioner Alturk. And for those who are planning to speak, I think our general rule of thumb is we don't cut you off right at three minutes. We do ask that you finish your thought. And to be clear, that's not finish your sentence, finish your thought. So I think we loosely interpret this rule and we will not cut anyone off mid-sentence or mid-thought. And it would be very difficult for me to or to manage deferring time, deferring a part of your time to the other individual. So that's why I'm going to start with three minutes if we can go ahead and decide on that timeframe. And then I'll adjust because one of our goals is to make sure that we hear from everyone and we do not cut anybody off. We do let them finish their thoughts. So can I have a motion to approve three minutes per speaker? Madam Chair, Chair Miller. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead, George. I'll make that motion that we give each speaker three minutes. Seconded. Motion by Commissioner Brine, second by Commissioner Morgan that we allow participants to speak for three minutes. All in favor of this motion, please respond to a roll call. Vote please. Um, Commissioner MacGyver. Yes. Commissioner Lowe. Yay. Yes. Commissioner Baker. Yes. Commissioner Santiago. Yes. Commissioner Kenchin. Yes. Commissioner Miller. Yes. Chair Hyman. Yes. Vice Chair Busby. Yes. Commissioner Al Church. Yes. Commissioner Durkin. Yes. Commissioner Brine. Yes. Commissioner Johnson. Yes. Commissioner Morgan. Yes. Commissioner Williams. Yes. For the record, can staff clarify? I know Mr. Brine, did he make the motion? Who seconded the motion? That was Commissioner Morgan. Morgan? Okay. Just making sure. And for the benefit of everyone in attendance, I will be glad to keep the time at the three minute time. And then what I'll do is when the three minutes up, I'll just pop my video on so you know it's getting close. I'm not going to make noise. And then you decide how long you want to let them talk after that. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. I think we're ready to start. Our first individual, the applicant, Pam Porter, will make a presentation at this time. Good evening. Can you all hear me? Yes. Perfect. Okay. Pam Porter with TMTLA Associates. Am I going to get just three minutes to speak or do I have a little more time as the applicant? How much time do you need? Probably six to eight minutes. I'll be as brief as I can. Yes. Okay. Thank you. I just want to start by saying thank you to Jamie Sonjak and the other planning staff who have helped us get our rezoning case to this point. They've done a good job and just wanted to recognize them for that. And if I could have somebody put the I sent a map in yesterday, somebody could put the map up that I sent. That would be awesome. Perfect. Thank you so much. The map currently on the screen shows the four rezoning cases that are in this area. The case that is mine is in green. The case you're going to hear after mine is in red. And there's two future cases that are shown as a gray and a beige that are currently in staff review. The three that are not green or not mine. But I wanted to just bring your attention to this map because I know as a standalone project, we're only doing two types of residential product. But between these four, we're providing a neighborhood node with residential and commercial. So I thought that was important to mention as we move forward with the discussion of our projects. And I wanted to take a few minutes to address the community participation and the change.org that was started by the Braggtown Community Association. So starting out, we've had two neighborhood meetings for this project. One was on July 1 of last year and the other one was January 28 of this year. The first meeting was required, but we had a second voluntary meeting for those who could not attend the first one and to give update for those who wanted to just get an update who attended the first meeting. And at both meetings, we had around 10 folks show up and we discussed the usual issues, which were traffic removal of tree canopy type of development and runoff. And I feel we adequately addressed everyone's concerns. And although some neighbors left still undecided about their support of our project, there didn't appear to be any major outstanding issues. And between my case and green and the other three on this map, there have been seven neighborhood meetings held for projects in this area. I wanted to note that because I feel, you know, we've had more than the required. So we've had a lot of community participation. And Tim Syvers with Horvath Associates and myself were planning on attending a Braggtown Community Association meeting on March 14th to discuss our projects and it was canceled due to COVID-19. And we've made attempts to hold meetings virtually, but those requests went unanswered. I found out about the change.org request on May 21st. And I'm sure you have all hopefully seen the change.org in our formal response to that. And the change.org was started over three months ago. And we just found out about it about a week and a half ago. So I just wanted to note that for you all to just consider the timing of all this. A representative from the Braggtown Community Association reached out with a list of requests on May 26th, which are the same that were in that change.org. So a week after we found out about the actual petition online. And in between the time when the change.org was started and we were notified about it, we've made attempts to set up a meeting with the Braggtown Community Association and those went unanswered. And recently a representative reached out to both Tim and myself about setting up a meeting. And we responded that we would like to set up a meeting in the next three to four weeks and we have yet to hear back. And just to wrap up this portion of my notes, we've gone above and beyond the UDO requirements for community engagement. And not only have we not gotten a response about setting up a meeting with the Braggtown Community Association, but we are, they're asking for a deferral on our project. They have not given us the opportunity to start a dialogue with them about our proposal. And we are very committed to meeting with them, but we do not want that to be a cause for delay for our project moving forward. And now I just want to just note a couple of things about the requested items within that change.org as they pertain to our project. It seems like there are two larger items being asked for in the request and it's affordable housing and protection of environmental features. We understand the importance of both of these, but these items don't typically go hand in hand. We can't reserve 35 to 45 percent of our property as protected area and also create a neighborhood with density that is considered affordable. And if we were to do that, you would end up with large lots and expensive houses, which are not in line with Durham's goals for affordable housing. And what we are proposing is 100-foot stream buffers, which are double that of what the state requires, 8.75 acres of tree save as existing tree canopy cover and market rate housing that is in line with the homes for sale and sold recently within the area. It is also worth noting that the three lots above my case and the one next door, as Jamie mentioned, are owned by the state and will remain large contiguous areas of tree canopy cover likely for the foreseeable future. Not only has the one-time affordable housing donation been increased by 20 percent for a total of $25,200, but the one-time donation to the Durham public schools will be $19,000 and those were mentioned in the proffers Jamie mentioned in her presentation. And any other monetary donations like the ones outlined in the change.org end up getting passed down to the home buyer, which ultimately makes the home less affordable and it's not in line with Durham's goals for affordable housing. And lastly, we just look forward to a vote tonight and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. And Mike Owens with Meritage Homes is also here to answer questions you may have for him. I do have Michael Owens listed as a part of the project. So does Michael, will Michael like to speak at this time? Yes, this is Mike Owens. Again, Mike Owens, I work with the Applicant Meritage Homes. I'm their Vice President of Land Acquisitions. I am a Durham resident, 3545 Dixon Road, and I want to speak in favor of the proposed community. You know, first and foremost, I want to appreciate everyone for being here and for participating in the process. I want to give quick background on Meritage and then also more specific to the projects. So first thing, our company is built from the ground up. Our original founder from the 80s is actually still our CEO. So it is a true American company. One thing that we really do differentiate on as a builder is green and energy efficient building. Builders typically don't do a great job of branding themselves and really differentiating. That is in everything that we do. No matter the price point of the home, we include features. We probably add $3,000 to $4,000 per home and costs that others do not include because it is fundamental to who we are. So we add that in every home that we build because that's part of our core values and part of what we believe in. Parts of that are spray foam insulation, thermal brakes, where we ventilate our homes. But that is something very core to who we are as a builder that I really do think differentiates us. You know, further as it relates to affordability of housing, on average our 24 foot townhomes, which is basically our two car garage townhome, on average versus traditional housing, we save about $62 a month in energy costs because of the way that we build homes. So both adding to the payment and affordability of the homes, but also further contributing to the environment. So also just as it relates to tree save and other environmental things, I just do want to state that as something very core to who we are. And then regarding the product and the proposed site itself, as Pam had mentioned, we have a mix of townhomes and detached homes. Within the townhomes itself, we actually have two different products, a one car and two car garage townhome products. And really for us, that's about offering a variety of products to our consumers. You know, for the smaller townhomes, we'll be starting in the high 100s and then working our way up and offering a variety of products to consumers. And as Pam had mentioned, you know, as you add an open space in different layers, you know, at the end of the day, that ultimately flows through to the end user and to the consumer. You know, and so what we think we have here is a great opportunity to put together a great community with a mixture of housing product that comes in at reasonable pricing. We really do think that products and frankly, what we do is a great fit for the site and for the community. So we'd appreciate your support. And again, I do just really want thank everyone for their time and participation. Thank you so much. The next individual who has signed up to speak is Billy D. Hello, can you hear me? Yes, I have requested with Sarah Young that I be able to show slides this evening. Sarah Young, can can you put the slides on the screen? Our staff is working on it. Hang on just one second. Chair and commissioners, while we're waiting, I wanted to let you know the first speaker Ms. Porter was able to wrap her presentation up in under six minutes, right? I mean, almost exactly three minutes. So I didn't know if you needed that data for going forward for presentations on the other side. Thank you. While we're waiting for the slides to come up, I just had a question. My presentation, I will have three minutes to present. Are in this larger public hearing, will there be a time if members of the public have questions that they can pose questions? Or will all statements need to be three minute statements of some kind? I'm not totally clear on the format of this evening. Oh, okay. My slide is here. Sorry. Okay. My name is Billy D. And I'm here tonight as the Braggtown Community Association's representative on new development. And I got involved with the Braggtown Community Association about a year ago when I learned of the Carver Street assemblage. I was curious about how much my neighbors were aware of the project, as this is a very large development. As Pam Porter stated in the last slide, this is not only one development, this is a cluster of developments that aim to create a commercial node with a very large amount of housing. And I realized that this would have strong impact on the entire surrounding area. An area outside of the 600 foot notification zone, which is in fact the legal requirement for notification. I got involved with the Community Association because I realized from my experiences in other neighborhoods and in other cities that development of this side does have an effect that is outside of that perimeter. If you could go to the next slide, please. Over the past several months, our Community Association wanted to find out what kind of hopes and concerns people actually have about development in this area. We knew that the 600 foot notification zone wasn't going to catch everybody who might actually be deeply impacted in this historically black neighborhood. So we went through, we distributed surveys, we hosted several public meetings, and we learned a lot about what community members' hopes and concerns might be. If you could go to the next slide, please. Based on responses to these community meetings, to these surveys, and to conversations on the topic, we generated a set of recommendations that address not only the Carver Street assemblage, but also the project Pam Porter just presented, as well as the cluster in general. As of today, we have 1,264 people supporting our recommendations for development. If you could go to the next slide, please. I won't read all of these. Obviously, anyone who's interested can refer online to the petition, but affordable housing is a key concern in our area. If you go to the next slide, community benefits. We thought that it would be important to think about public safety, community benefits, and if you can go to the next slide. Thinking about what it means to build the development and think about what that means to make it welcoming to all people. If you go to the next slide, please. Environmental protection is also key. If you go to my final slide, please. The Ragtown Community Association is committed to working with the developers and with the City of Durham in order to translate these recommendations into specific clear and enforceable commitments in the final development plan. Due to the ongoing crisis caused by the pandemic, we asked the City County Planning Commission to offer a 60-day delay on these proposals so that this important work of collaboration is able to happen. In all of our work, we are committed to centering the needs of those who will be most impacted by development and issues of environmental sustainability in the spirit of equity and fairness. If I may, I would just like to respond briefly to Pam. Pam, do I have time or is my time over? Yes. Oh, it's over. The chair can decide if you have extra time. Adam Chair, Tom Miller, commission member. Since this was raised in the developer's presentation, I'd like to hear what this speaker has to say. Thank you. Yes. Yes, thank you. I, as the main point of contact on new development issues, I've been in touch with Tim Sivers for many months. I've attended public meetings on both of these developments and I reviewed my personal emails, which is my point of contact for these developments. The earliest contact that I could find in my records from Pam Porter directly was on May 27th. I work with a community organization that has to take the input of stakeholders into account. I'm not alone in this. We cannot respond immediately to an email. The last point of connection I had with Pam Porter was to state that we were committed and able and ready to make a meeting. The truth is, a community organization needs a couple of days to regroup and find a time to meet together. I don't speak alone for this community association, so any delay in my email response to Pam Porter is related to my responsibility to this larger community and the fact that a volunteer-run organization is not able to work at the same pace as a developer. That is why we're asking for a delay because we truly do want to meet and we do want to collaborate. It's very important to us that we can have these conversations in ways that are generative and meaningful and we believe everyone's voices can be heard. Thank you. Thank you. In all fairness, Pam Porter has raised her hand to speak at this time. Yeah, Pam Porter, TMTLA associates. I just wanted to address what Billy just said. So Billy came to our first community meeting and I gave Billy my card and let Billy know to give me a call and email me whenever there were questions or wanted to get together to discuss the project. And there were correspondences between Tim and Billy that happened that I was not included on and when I found out that I was not being included on these correspondences I sent an email to Billy and just asked to please include me because our project is called out in a petition online but I was not aware of it until very recently. So I just wanted to state that for the record that Tim was reaching out and he was going to set up the meeting for both of us since our projects are adjacent. We were going to kind of talk about our projects together. So I just I felt like that was worth responding to. I don't want people to think that I was ignoring anybody. I just didn't realize that I was not getting the emails from the get go. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. The next individual signed up to speak is Constance Wright. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, good. Okay, my name is Constance Wright and I'm the vice chair of the Bradtown Community Association. My concern with this is, like Billy said, we have not been notified properly as far as knowing what's going on with the developers. The 600 feet does not include me at all as far as my residence is concerned. My main concern, one of my main concerns as far as this is concerned is the environment as far as the trees and the impact that it will have on that community, on our community overall. It's been shown that trees, you know, save lives as it shows in my video. My concern is for the animals, for their habitat. What's happening is in my community, which is maybe about three miles from the development, we have deer coming into my neighborhood trying to find food to eat. We've seen coyote, we've seen fox, we've seen bears over on Hamelin Road. So if they take down more of those trees, that's going to cause more animals to be displaced from their habitat. We have a lot of endangered plants that are on that site that will be destroyed. We have the potential for flooding in that area, which sometimes if you go down old Oxford Highway, you can hydroplane because there's water on the road. And overall, we have not been able to include many of the residents in our community in these decision makers. We try to engage them, but our community, you know, however was in the process, well, the pandemic is what caused us to have to put a lot of it on hold. And a lot of our residents do not have like the various means of communication with us and everything. So we have not been able to reach out to them. I just feel like it's fair for all of us to have an input because it just seems like the developers come in. I know they are following the laws and the rules that are set in place, but it's not fair to the residents because we are all being displaced or our taxes are going up or whatever. So I'm like Billy in that regard as far as asking for a delay in this process because we just need to have equal input as far as the developmental process from this from our residents in order for this process to be fair and for to include everybody. Thank you. Our next speaker is Vanessa Mason Evans. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. Good evening. My name is Vanessa Mason Evans. I'm the chair of the Bradtown Community Association. I live at 3223 Dearborn Drive Durham, North Carolina. My roots are deeply rooted in Bradtown and I can trace my family history back to 1811. I'm a descendant of the Mason Plantation of Chapel Hill Orange County. The Stadfield Plantation is next to Bradtown where I went to school with descendants of the Stadfield Plantation. This land is truly historical black owned land that descendants still live on to this day. The Bradtown area is an area that needs to stay intact with affordable houses that work with the income of the people of this community. We the members of the Bradtown community are willing to work with the developers but need more time due to the COVID-19 virus. We have been unable to hold any meetings and when we were to meet with the developers, our meeting had to be canceled due to the orders of the city of Durham. We're asking for a 60 day delay to have time to meet with our community members and the developers. As a developer, your core value should also include affordable housing in the low 90s to hundreds. We the Bradtown community hold the city and county planning commission and city council accountable to an equitable process in this matter and I thank y'all for listening to us this evening. Thank you so much. Reynolds Chapman. Good evening everyone, can you hear me? Yes. Hi my name is Reynolds Chapman and my wife and I Caitlyn and our family have been Bradtown residents since 2016. When I first moved to Bradtown we got to know Vanessa Evans and the Bradtown community association and we got to know a community that has a really important story. I also direct a nonprofit here in Durham called Durham Cares. We work to help people understand the history of the city and to help that inform who we are as a community. Our mission is to help people love their neighbors and what I've learned through working with the Bradtown community association and being a resident here is that we've through a project that we did where we collected oral histories and we had community meetings where we shared different pieces of the neighborhood's history and just through getting together and sharing meals together. I've learned that Bradtown has a remarkable beautiful story that when developments like this come in it displaces people who hold that story and it erodes a very fundamental part of what makes us a community as Durham and for a developer to do the bare minimum of what is required for community engagement and expect that that's going to cultivate the kind of community that we want in Durham that is not what we want and so all we are asking is for a delay so that we can really have this engagement and have this conversation to be able to work together and cultivate that love of neighbor that we want to see in our city. Thank you. Thank you so much Celeste, Richie. Good evening. I'm here as a Bradtown resident and as someone who's had the privilege of working under the leadership of the Bradtown community association and being part of some of these planning meetings these community planning meetings as well as attending the planning meetings by the developer and you know I first and foremost want to support the recommendation for a delay I do think that having the time to you know to really engage is important and I guess for me you know something that I've really learned over the time of you know working to understand this these projects better and working with the community is to hear folks' stories right to hear about the roots of Bradtown this really you know strong historically Black neighborhood but then also to hear other folks' stories of kind of you know over their lifetime the number of times they've been displaced from a neighborhood because housing prices go up or because people move in who see them as a threat and and it doesn't feel good to be in that neighborhood anymore so I think about the harm that can happen you know when development doesn't take into consideration the current residents but I also think about the harm of just having something decided without your involvement right um that that over and over we see that you know Black communities have decisions made for them and not with them and so I just really want to you know echo the statements of of the other folks that have spoken and say that I think the community deserves at least a 60-day delay to have a more in-depth and and rich discussion with the whole community involved thank you so much thank you I'm Katie Moore Madam Chair I don't see Katie Moore signed up it's possible that the name could be different if I can ask if Katie Moore's in attendance to please use the raise hand function okay I have her listed as an opponent and a resident okay let's move to Marie Hill Fasen and I see Marie Hill Fasen on our list yes hello I can hear you hi uh I'm I'm a Durham resident and um presently my name is Marie Hill Fasen okay then a Durham resident uh since 1990 and uh I just would like to given what's going on in the country and um we need to uh take take that all in when we're thinking about Braggtown uh and how it impacts black and brown people and on my opinion we need to get people that want to develop that is sensitive to those issues and not sell ourselves short uh because people want to develop and sell houses and um I attended a meeting at South Point with residents who were unable to change the course of their neighborhood because they were too late to give input they didn't know how the machine worked and so they just had to accept the infiltration of the developments that surrounding them and we don't want this to continue in our community so it's very important that the people in Braggtown have a voice in their future and as they did in their past so I I don't know how much time I have but I felt very compelled to speak and and show my support for this neighborhood as well as the other neighborhoods being impacted by developers coming in and not including the people that are already living there and uh making money and the people that live there can't afford these these homes that are being built and that's that's a big problem that's a big problem thank you Courtney Evans Courtney Evans okay I'll move to the next name Larissa Seibel hello can you hear me yes my name is Larissa Seibel and I'm a resident of Durham and I also help home buyers who are trying to find affordable homes in Durham and about a year ago I had a home buyer bought a home in Independence Park off of Danube I believe and the house was 166 000 and now the tax value is 203 000 this is one year it's gone up that much and you know she along with other people who uh bought homes when they were first building them they were affordable but then they immediately jumped up into the 200s um and and well above 200 and 3000 more like the average I think is about 227 in terms of the sales right now and people are not finding affordable housing in Durham um it's in the public interest to have affordable housing as we know more than ever during COVID-19 housing is health housing is stable neighborhoods we need housing to be affordable so all of our residents can thrive especially low income families with children and you know how destabilizing it is when the rents and the taxes on home owners go up so quickly that people lose their homes this is not in the interests of Durham we must must make sure that there is affordable housing just building more density does not create affordable housing the studies have shown in other communities that you have to encourage affordable housing and make sure it's it's built I know that um that we have an affordable housing fund but the amount of money they're proposing 25 000 is not going to build a home we should be getting a substantial amount of affordable housing in the zoning ordinance you can get 20 percent more affordable housing and I may not be exactly right on that percentage but it's you know 20 percent of the homes should be affordable I know the community is asking for 50 percent and I totally support that in this case this is a historic african-american community built by people who had been enslaved in stagville it is still relatively affordable compared to the crazy prices closer to downtown but it's going up and it will be an expensive neighborhood if all these zoning cases get approved without any affordable housing thank you very much for listening thank you I do not have any other individuals on my list but I'm going to check with technical support at this time to see if they're we have are there Katie Katie Moore is available uh Rachea that's our ability to talk I apologize Katie if you are missed over you if you wish to address her mad chair yes thank you that's okay I wasn't able to join for the first part of the call so um thank you for letting me speak I mean I don't have very much to say my name is Katie Moore I'm a resident of Durham um and I only recently relatively recently found out about this development and about the asks that the um Bregtown Community Association are making so I just you know as I was reading through it and the thing that it's the only thing that I really want to say it's just that I grew up in Durham and have always been really incredibly me from Durham and to have grown up in a community that has so much diversity and history and wonderful communities like Bregtown and that I think was really important for my own development and I lived in other places for about 10 years and and as I would come back every year I just I noticed you know more and more changes as I'm sure all of you know and just it it felt you know all a lot of the things that I really love about Durham and the history was kind of getting further and less and less evident what I would come home um and so I'm not in any way an expert on development or affordable housing or anything like that but to me it just seems like a really baseline you know the the baseline condition that development that is done should be done um with the support and input of the residents who have been living there and so I think especially for um such a historic neighborhood like Bregtown that's that's incredibly important and so I just wanted to voice support for their all of their asks that they're making and that's it thank you thank you for listening thank you so much I'm going to check once again for Courtney Evans who is on my list hearing okay then I'm going to move to the next person with a hand raised Mimi Kessler good evening can you hear me yes I can thank you great thank you very much um good evening commissioners thank you for coming together in this manner I know that this is challenging for lots of us um it is very nice to see you uh I am here to support the essential message offered by the Bregtown equitable development petition and request the delay they request and encourage the developer to collaborate with the Bregtown team and I commend that that team on their organization and their preparedness to try to mitigate the impacts of development in their area I believe many of you are consistently advocating that developments should have a component of their plans to address the serious affordable housing shortage we have in Durham I believe that the best way to change a culture is to start locally and it starts with courageous people stepping out of the normal path to do something differently I believe that we should have an affordable housing component in every development project authorized by the city of Durham so far I have seen only one proposed development which embraces this philosophy some developers are agreeing to chip in to the affordable housing fund and in insultingly small amounts amounts that would be a rounding error in their accounting on their projects meanwhile the city has to address this urgent problem yes it is true that the UDO does not address this issue and some developers including one last night who noted that because it was not in the code they were irritated that you were advocating for it but in fact there are many things we all do to contribute to making our world a better place there is no law that says that you have to recycle components of your solid waste yet nearly everyone does it and it started with a few people who thought it would make a difference some of us drive electric cars and have smart thermostats to reduce our carbon footprint again those technologies started slowly but are now the emerging standard I see no reason why the developers who will reap huge profits should not share their wealth with those less fortunate and not shift the cost to the contribution of the consumer as this applicant suggested earlier and they should not be measuring their contribution based on the annual tax liability in an average household for the household for the housing bond last year which it was mostly a political decision as last night's applicant did instead they if they choose not to include units for truly affordable housing in the development they should monetarily to creating affordable housing built by others and do so by paying 50 percent of what it costs the city to do so thank you very much thank you I see the name of Brandon Williams with the hand raised um but I but I also see a different case number with that name so Brandon are you speaking to this case uh yes I was it was unclear as to how uh from from my first time participating like how many of the case numbers I needed to put into communicate but I am here to speak on behalf of the case I've been hearing about tonight thank you thank you um Madam Chairman Chairwoman and the commissioners for the opportunity to speak my name is Brandon Williams I am I've been a resident of Durham since 2008 have lived in the walltown neighborhood since 2013 and in here to stand in solidarity with a member of the Bragg town community as they seek to push forward delay so that they may engage with the developers in this process around what will make this process more equitable and to see benefits flow to them and for them to see what they desire in terms of their community growth I think in part things I can speak to and share similar processes and in walltown we are dealing in many other parts of the city dealing with development projects we have the Northgate Mall redevelopment and in the process of trying to gather community voices is make sure you're connecting with residents that is a much slower process than I think in my experience developers have understood it to be and so I would recommend that the time extension so that given the fact that folks have had trouble convening in the midst of COVID that something can happen over the next 60 days to further the process I don't think that will be too much of a hindrance for the developers should not be seen as such and that the importance of community members having a say in the process should outweigh that and I think more broadly the opportunity here that the community association is trying to put before us the city is just the the essence of collaboration in this process and that residents need to have a way to kind of enter in that's not solely on their initiative or recognizing kind of what's happening but that the city county might be able to offer a platform so that that bridges these gaps in the future I think could be one thing to discover and learn from this I think it's it's it's definitely should not fall upon as Billy was referencing you know volunteer folks who are having to make this work happen versus folks who are paid to do this and so that the assistance from city county could help to kind of facilitate and make a bridge there so that that that lift and load is not so heavy and that communication can be streamlined thank you for your time thank you I do see Courtney Evans name again are you present yes I am thank you um thank you um I am a lifelong bright town resident I've lived here for 25 years um over time I've just realized that there's not enough money coming into the communities to build up areas that are safe for children and elderly such as something as simple as sidewalks there are a lot of people elderly people who are in wheelchairs and stuff like that and them being able to get to say bus stops um or to the store down the street they aren't able to safely because we don't have um sidewalks that are you know that accommodate them on both sides of the street and also I do notice with more development that there are more um there's an increase in wildlife being pushed into uh you know residential areas so I do think it's important that we are mindful well developers are mindful when they are you know doing the things that they do and in the areas that they're choosing to do it without taking everyone into consideration that's all thank you jackie jackie coach jackie are you there I'm here um as an opponent to this these projects the rag town needs more support from the city and the county as far as environmental work um sidewalks as Courtney was talking about affordable housing um I agree that there should be a delay so that the rag town residents can work together with the developer and come up with some equitable uh solutions to the concerns that they have thank you thank you Jim Bartlett if Jim is there Jim Bartlett I'm here but I'm not uh I have no comment thank you I at this time I do not have other individuals who have signed up to speak and I do not see any additional raised hands but I will uh check to see whether anyone else would like to speak to this issue hearing none let me double check I see there is I want to make sure I have a question I'm sorry is that Mr Bartlett yes I have a question what can someone define affordable housing at this particular time we are basically receiving your comments there is a questioning period and we'll be able to you know someone will be able to respond that so we really want to stay on the comments section at this time thank you are there any other individuals who would like to speak okay I do see a hand raise for an individual who has already spoken are you asking to speak again yeah Marie Hill Fason well I I'm with um I'm always with my mother so apologize um so I just want to say that um well my name is Camaria face and I'm here with my mother uh participating um I've been I've been in Durham basically my entire life uh went to the Lakewood YMCA for preschool piercing town rogers her hillside eventually went to Bennett College for women thereafter so I've seen the changes of course that have happened in Durham and it's it's it's appalling and absolutely unacceptable um to be working with someone who would even dare to challenge whether people need homes and houses to live in and to stay near their loved ones it's um it's unacceptable so I I think that the demands need to be met and um I would be deeply saddened to see money win again because I truly believe that Durham can be the beacon of light for other cities and hold a torch and be different we already have shown that in the past few days that we are different and that we can do better and there is a better way without leaving anybody with losses and that's all and I appreciate it thank you I do not have other individuals who have signed up to speak but I'm going to just double check for just a second to make sure because I want to make sure that everyone who would like to speak to this issue has an opportunity to speak okay um so at this time I'm going to close the public hearing and give the commissioners an opportunity to ask questions I'm going to move to my commissioners so that I can see okay so I'm ready to hear from our commissioners Madam Chairman it's Tom Miller commission member Miller the chair recognizes Commissioner Miller thank you Madam Chairman at this time I'm going to make a motion that we continue the public hearing in this case until our regularly scheduled meeting in August and I'd like to if the motion is seconded I'd like to be heard on Madam Chair George Brian I second the motion we do have a motion uh motion by Commissioner Miller second by Commissioner Brian that we continue that we move now let me make sure is this a continuance for two cycles a continuance until the august night or the august meeting why I haven't checked the date but I regularly scheduled meeting in august thank you roughly 60 days yeah August the 11th thank you August the 11th then well I'll restate it motion by Commissioner Miller second by Commissioner Brian that we move this item which is the um old Oxford Road um to the um meeting in August which will be August the 11th all in favor of this motion let it be known by a roll call vote please there is some unreadiness I'm going to uh entertain questions at this time Madam Chair if I may be heard on my motion yes thank you Madam Chairman and fellow commission members um we have talked uh especially in connection with the uh creation of a new comprehensive plan about uh building a strong role of equity in planning and I would freely admit that I do not pretend to all to understand what this means in every case but in this case I do understand what it means and I think this case and this motion is a test of whether or not we're going to be fair or whether we're going to be equitable because they're not the same thing here we have a neighborhood that is struggling to pull itself together to respond to the most complicated thing ordinary citizens in any city have to cope with and I Mr Williams in his remarks I think really hit it on the head it's not an even match it's nobody's fault that it isn't even but when we can see that it's not an even match then it's our responsibility to do the things we can do to even it up and I believe time is one of those factors and that's in our gift uh the developers have pointed out something I think is really exciting this is four projects coming together where we can design a residential community and a commercial node together to serve each other it's an exciting prospect for me but it's got to be done in a way that has meaningful inclusion by the people who live there this has got to serve not just the new development but all the people around it and as they have pointed out I have been a neighborhood organizer in Durham for 40 years and it is hard it is hard to come up to scratch and to catch up and to figure out what all this means and to participate in a meaningful way in any amount of time but here we can give the time that these folks have asked for and I if we give it I hope that they will really use it and engage and overcome all the difficulties it's also my hope that our planning staff and planning commission members can also participate actively in this um we're not judges we are citizen representatives we have assistance to offer uh I would I want to vote in favor of all four of these projects as they come together because they are good projects but they will only be projects that have my support if the folks from the bragg town association and the other communities that may be affected can step up and say I had my say it was a meaningful say and um I'm either forward or against it I'm not promising I am going to necessarily vote with the bragg town when the time comes but right now I can't vote for this project because I really don't think that we have uh have proceeded in a way uh that serves equity and planning again it's not a concept that I pretend to understand the limits of but today uh for this motion the equitable thing to do is to give this community the time that it's asked for and I urge you all to vote for the motion thank you madam chairman thank you for the time thank you is there any additional unreadiness or other questions before we vote I saw another hand I want just to make sure yes the chair recognizes cedric johnson you have your you're muted yeah I was I wasn't speaking I had my hand raised I'm gonna lower it now thank you chairwoman hyman so I would like to echo uh much of uh commissioner miller's point in regards points regarding the the uh request in need I think to continue this I will the the one thing I will say uh in in response to the comment uh commissioner miller that this is a good project to some I guess I'm paraphrasing what you said I would only say it's a good project if based on what we're trying to achieve here right so this is a sizable initiative when we take all of the the projects in this vicinity going into place and I think that in part part of the opportunity that's presented is for the residents beyond the 600 feet uh you know notification area can get a better idea of how all of the projects together either creates something that they can get behind or something that will want warrants further you know discussion with the the developers because maybe what they're what's trying to be achieved in one particular development when you look at the all the components together it actually gets them closer to what they're trying to uh achieve from you know a community standpoint so for that I mean my question to I guess the staff or someone one of my peers who may have insight is can can we vote for continuation with without the consent of the applicant or does the applicant have uh have to agree to this or do they want to vote tonight because I will say that if I had to vote on this tonight I would definitely be voting against it but if we have the opportunity to continue this without you know even if the developer with us rather not I would vote for continuance thank you let me ask this question of the commissioners are there any commissioners who would like to ask the applicants any questions before we vote okay the chair recognizes our commissioner johnson um who would like to then and and the applicant would be uh Pam Porter thank you again chair woman so uh my one of my questions with two questions one is uh based on the development plan that you have at this point in time what are the anticipated price points for the different uh you know housing options that will be part of this this development and the second piece is do you have any feedback uh to provide the account of the commission regarding uh six day uh two cycle continuance thank you so the applicant Pam Porter can respond to this question at this time uh good evening uh Pam Porter TMTLA associates so I just wanted to quickly touch base on the second point um regarding the continuance we would ask that we get a vote tonight um a couple things I wanted to point out is in that change.org we one of the requests was to increase the donation to the affordable housing fund by 20 percent which we are going to do and we are committed to meeting with bragg town we're committed to also having an additional community meeting that is just like an additional neighborhood meeting and we can increase the notification boundary if if we need to we're committed to doing that um we'd rather not get a continuance I think that we've been delayed we'd like the vote so just something to consider um as the discussions continue tonight but also regarding the the price points um Mike Owens can talk more about it but the just to give you a baseline the the townhomes will start in the high 180s and obviously you know they can obviously go up from there but that is the starting price point of the homes in the area and um if if it's okay may I have Mike respond to that? Yes okay. Hi thank you uh thank you for the question um yeah Pam is correct in that we will be starting from the 180s on the townhomes and and I guess just to address one other thing is as it relates to affordability um you know I do this for a living you know my job is to buy land and to develop neighborhoods um there's a certain point at which uh you know the land doesn't have a value and and to provide homes at this price point frankly is is challenging we're building a pretty efficient site plan uh we're trying to address the rights market for this it isn't easy to do I mean I guess y'all throughout the triangle home prices are going up in the threes and fours we actually have a unique opportunity here to hit that demand I think we've done a good job of doing it with the three products that we're offering so one car townhomes and the high 100s uh two car townhomes probably high 100s low 200s and then the the uh the detached single family homes will be in the mid 200s and this is ballpark obviously this is subject to demand uh you know and what's something when we open the community which will be a few years down the road um but that is what we're looking at in terms of pricing thank you. Thank you I I still have emotion on the table are there any additional comments uh the chair recognizes commissioner Durkin so I I don't know that we got a clear answer of whether we can vote on you into the applicant is asking us to vote tonight I would also sorry Grace we're gonna answer that well I can um the applicant does not have to consent to a continuance that is at the discretion of the planning commission. Great so in that case I would definitely vote in favor of the continuance because my fear is that we all vote no or most of us vote no is just my guess at this moment is that that doesn't that means that the city council and the board of county commissioners would get an application that does not incorporate a discussion between the applicant and the community and I think it's really important that we're given this opportunity to make that happen and if we just vote no and let this go then we're not allowing that discussion to occur so I would vote for the continuance I would encourage my fellow commissioners to do the same well we have a motion on the floor which has been a motion that has been second so at this time we're ready for a roll call vote for the continuance. Okay I'm going to do the roll call vote for the continuance the motion was made made by Mr. Miller and seconded by Mr. Brine. Yes okay. Take off from who was hoping to speak. Yeah I'm sorry I can't I think commissioning out Turk wanted to make a comment. Take out Turk Mr. out Turk's comment first please. Yes please. Thank you chair I just you know I see some hands raised and I wasn't sure if you know typically we even if we have a motion to or if we think that we're going to continue a case we often hear from other commissioners just to see where they stand or what their you know comments are about a case I I'm not sure if that makes sense in this case or not I just I just wanted to raise that as a but you know potentially we would I would like to hear from others to see what others are thinking before I vote on this particular motion because I guess when we vote for them and if we vote to continue it then you know we won't have any more discussion on this particular case is that correct? That is correct and my apologies because I want to make sure that I at least see every commissioner who has their hands raised and I I missed if I missed someone by all means please. Well I just see no I just see the seat three yeah okay you see three pain commissioner Brian Baker Williams and Busby at this point okay thank you sure no problem yes commissioner Brian thank you madam chair I am definitely in favor of continuing this case I would also and I agree with what commissioner Miller said I would also point out that you know COVID-19 came along and has upset the apple cart everything is different now and I think more time is needed for the Braggtown community to get their act together and then to meet with developers so I definitely am in favor of continuing thank you thank you my apologies to everyone I was looking at the other screen uh commissioner Baker yeah I I am also in favor of continuing the application for two cycles I also just wanted to talk a little bit about this application and and the project and the mobilization that has occurred in context and I want to acknowledge just how unprecedented this meeting is how unprecedented this case is we're seeing community solidarity that we have never seen before on the planning commission and I think that we need to to recognize that I mean I'm looking at the change.org website now there are 1473 signatures of Durham community residents in solidarity with the Braggtown community and so I think that that's important residents are stepping up and saying we want things to change the way things work now is is not working well for us and quite frankly I think that if there was a mobilization around this type of development that we see on a regular basis on the planning commission I think that we would see 1500 signatures on the other types of applications that we see um honestly I uh in I believe that in a truly democratic and just society that the list of demands uh that has been put forth would be fully achievable um I don't think that we live in that truly just and democratic society and so we sort of find ourselves stuck between a rock and a hard place so Durham needs to grow on the one hand but it also doesn't have all of the tools in place it doesn't have all the resources available that are necessary to do so in a fully democratic inclusive and sustainable way but we have we have to use tools to do better we have to balance what is best with what is possible and I think that that'll require both swift and immediate action and we'll have to couple that with larger more long-term local solutions so you know to be clear I think that the lack of adequate standards in the EDO uh and the fact that we don't have um as um as one of the community members spoke to earlier we don't have a citywide system of neighborhood planning both of those things together couple together is precisely what drives uncertainty at this late stage of the development process and it's uncertainty for the developer it's uncertainty for uh the planning commission it's uncertainty for you know the planning department and the elected officials and most importantly it's uncertainty for the community so in the long run I think that we need three things I think that we need a system of community-based neighborhood and area planning that's obviously not going to come out of anything that we discussed today um and second I think that we need uh adequate uh greenfield development zoning development standards um and I think that we need a predictable process so that we don't drive up development costs for the developers as the developers has spoken to and so that we don't create uncertainty for everybody else um I know that there's a motion on the table uh I support that motion but I would also like to hear what other planning commissioners think about the idea of forming a subcommittee tasked with uh either one or two things um one would be to make ourselves a to for a subcommittee to make itself available to help facilitate as needed uh meetings between the the applicant and the bractown neighborhood um if that were if that were desired uh and second to develop a series of targeted amendments to the edo to address the many issues that we often see in greenfield development and and that we discuss uh on a frequent basis here on the planning commission so I want to open that up to to discussion if if that's if that's possible I have additional commissioners who would like to comment so um commissioner williams and commissioner busby and commissioner morgan net order uh yes thank you um chair hi I actually have um I came into this case and I was not going to say anything anything at all but oftentimes enough I hear from the community and I hear from the developer and the community for me speaks the loudest because at this very moment I have a community that is deciding and not as uh chair actually as a commissioner baker said they've got some people behind them that don't necessarily live in that area and a lot of residents in Durham are starting to decide I'm going to decide how I live where I live what I want to live with and some things that we hear are a bit absorbent but the one thing I have not heard from this developer outside of I can increase the money that I give and I can increase certain things is I want to hear from the community and I want to work with the community this is not a development project that wants to encompass the community this is a project that is being developed because there's land available in other areas in which they probably would have built on have been absorbed so they want to try to attach themselves to another area there's no mistake about it I'm from Durham I know about bragtown I understand bragtown this was not a case of they're going to build this development is going to increase the traffic in my area it's going to build it they're going to build this development my kids won't be able to get to school or they're going to cut through my neighborhood this is about disturbing a historically black neighborhood and the content around that and what that means and what they're trying to have and what they're trying to establish so I understand that the developer does not want to be patient to wait 60 days but I can promise you given the current climate if you move forward with this the amount of resistance that you will obtain based off just the initial unification of various backgrounds in support of bragtown neighborhood is not going to be favorable unless you're willing to come to the table and we've seen this across the board we've seen major cases where major developers and attorneys have had to come back and they've had to go back to the drawing board and they cut what they were planning on developing because it met a certain amount of resistance and in this neighborhood it's historical they want preservations but they want protections they want understanding they want to be heard and if you can't commit to that then the issues and the problems that you see that are present today I feel like will be ongoing I think that this community deserves to be heard and I think that the people that are supporting this community deserve to be heard and as a developer you've got to find that middle ground as a designer yes you are building more homes and they're more efficient and ventilation is an issue but it's also a part of the building code by nature there's a certain amount of requirement glazing air filtration certain things have to be put in place r38 insulation in attics wall insulation has changed the building code is ever changing and evolving and that's just a minimum so I do applaud you for your efforts but a lot of those things as I understand them and as I know them to be are required so I think that you have to be patient and you have to understand because unfortunately your projects that are coming before us are being put in front of us where there's been a snowball effect where several people several communities have started to understand that they do have a voice in their exercise so you can take I mean you don't I don't want to give you an ultimatum please don't misunderstand me with that but I do want you to understand that there is a climate before you as a business and as a community that I don't really think that you fully understand and a lot of these people that are speaking right now they understand it they have empowered it and they're using it so if I had to vote today I'm going to vote no against this project this project I don't I don't think that it's in a bit of fit of the community and I think that their concerns about it and unfortunately it is just a way that the ball bounces in for me I represent the community of their not a single developer that comes thank you our commissioner buzz we thank you madam chair I just raised my hand to answer commissioner al-Turk's question I'm going to support this motion as well I I think just the additional time will allow the conversation to happen commissioner brine said it well the the coronavirus situation has made it challenging this is an opportunity for the community members with valley concerns and the the developer to sit down we've done this a lot before and you know we've seen many times where everyone comes back in 60 days or two cycles and there's agreement that doesn't always happen but it gives a chance for this conversation to happen I just want to add to that to commissioner baker's questions I think you you mentioned two things I think the first has already happened so I don't think we need to work now to connect the community and the developer I think they are now connected with each other I know I've gotten emails from both sides as well so I think we're all available to be a resource but I think historically once people know about each other they can they can go work and do the hard interactions and hopefully come back on august 11th and let us know where things stand and then we can deliberate again I think on your second question about a committee that might look at some changes to the udo I'm always open to that I would suggest that we still have a another item tonight that could take a while I think that's something we might put on to a future agenda uh we're meeting again on tuesday so we could and it's a smaller I think we have one item on next tuesday's agenda so I would I would just suggest we not do that tonight but we could add that to tuesday's agenda and I think it's something that is appropriate for us to to at least set up to to see if the rest of the committee the commission would like to set up a committee but but I would say let's not do it tonight thank you thank you commissioner busby commissioner morgan yes thank you madam chair um one of the other things that I was thinking is it sounds like that the concerns of the community and I'm anticipating it is that it's not just for this particular uh petition but also the uh kind of sister petition that's also going to be coming before us and so I think their concerns rather than having them repeat their interest in in deferring this uh that we might want to consider that and not have them repeat their concerns all over again but I'm kind of echoing that so I guess maybe I would ask one of the um people that are in opposition is that there is that their interest or is just this petition it's a matter of fact some of the same individuals have signed up for the our next case uh grace um yes um staff would ask that there's a motion on the floor in a second and the next case is a separate item and you should deal with that at that time if you would that's fine I just see they're connected in some way but I agree we need to take care of this one first but I appreciate it understand the procedures thank you uh commissioner al turk thank you chair and thanks for giving us the time to discuss the motion and talk about the case I just want to also thank the community members who are on the call and who have emailed um and I the petition that you've put together I think is one of the best that we've ever gotten because of how specific your demands are and I I would like to see these things in all developments um but I just I want to just make a just a quick comment uh to to the applicant which is that at least for me personally if in 60 days something comes back and there are only minor changes or just changes around the fringes I probably will vote no um I mean unless the community is just completely for it but I you know I would like to and I think the to me maybe the biggest sticking point or one of them is having affordable housing on site rather than just a small contribution to the affordable housing fund uh I think uh Ms. Kessler made a good point about you know this is just pocket change for for some developers and and you know and I I want to see and I and I think all of us want to see uh you know affordable units on site and there are and I think there are ways to make that happen uh without you know just passing it on down to the the home buyer uh which is what I hear a lot from developers but I I think there are other ways to do it and I I think that this commission is open to hearing those ideas and I would really like to see that I especially in this case sometimes you know a contribution to the housing fund makes sense in other cases I think we need to do something you know to that you know for that community and and so I I just I I would like to see that be a a point of I hope that you will discuss that with the neighbors and I I hope you'll reach out to commission members to uh to just discuss it further as well thank you thank you and commissioner Miller thank you madam chairman uh we need to vote on the motion but I did want to say in response to what Mr. Busby said Mr. Baker has raised up points that I think are important um and I think we need to talk about uh I don't know that they're necessarily pertinent to the immediate motion but I hope that after we vote on the motion uh that he will have an opportunity to speak again I did want you expressed a concern that perhaps he was interested in creating a committee that would work on and participate actively in this case it's something that we've not done before but I think it's something we need to talk about it is if we are going to consider that we should not do it at another meeting the people who care about this case are in the room with us right now listening to what we say I do not want them to to constantly have to come back to make sure we're not talking behind their backs they're right here in front of us and if we're going to talk about it and if we're going to consider it then I hope Mr. Baker after we vote on this motion will have an opportunity to make his own motion and to state his reasons because I'd like to hear them once again we have a motion on the table if there are any other comments that are related to the motion we can hear them at this time if not I think we are ready for a roll call vote okay this is a motion to continue the case until August 11th Commissioner Williams yes Commissioner Morgan yes Commissioner Johnson yes Commissioner Brian Commissioner Brian yes Commissioner Durkin yes Commissioner Al Turk yes Commissioner Busby yes Chair Hyman yes Commissioner Miller yes Commissioner Kanchin yes Commissioner Santiago yes Commissioner Baker yes Commissioner Lowe yes and Commissioner MacIver yes Kanchin and members 14-0 to continue the case until August 11th thank you at this time I'd like to move to the next case this will be the comprehensive plan future land map use amendments plus a concurrent zoning map change for Carver Street assemblage may we have the staff report please good evening this is Jamie Sonjak with the planning department I will be presenting case number a 1900005 Z1900009 Carver Street assemblage first side please the applicant Tim Sivers with Horvath Associates requests a zoning a rezoning and future land use map change for the site generally located at 3816 Cub Creek Road the site is 134 acres and there's a pending annexation petition associated with this request the applicant proposes to change the future land use map designation which is industrial to low medium density residential and there's no change to the recreation and open space designated area then in addition they seek to change the zoning from residential suburban 20 and residential urban 5 to plan development residential 5.750 along with a development plan for up to 675 apartments single family detached homes and townhouse units next slide on the aerial the site is highlighted in red it is bisected by East Carver Street the north side on the north side of Carver Street the property is roughly 76 acres in size it includes the streams and associated stream buffers floodplains and wetlands on the south side of Carver Street the property is roughly 57 acres in size much of this area is undeveloped with forest and associated streams and stream buffers as well next slide please the following several slides depict pictures for the site and the surroundings as mentioned with the prior case there's a lot of similarity in the area this area has been experiencing a lot of growth both existing and planned and the staff report goes into detail in terms of the various residential development nearby there are also some medical offices and non-residential uses along Ben Franklin Road the various garden apartments the Durham Housing Authority apartments as I mentioned previously on the other application and I would just note for the record that this property is east of the site that we just discussed on the prior case that includes a maximum of 65 single-family detached residential units and 145 townhouse units in addition to the south there is a case that also is a request for up to 100,000 square feet of commercial space next slide please this shows the existing and proposed zoning for the site on the slide on the left shows the property in the residential suburban 20 and residential urban five districts along with the proposed plan development residential 5.750 on the right it is located within the suburban development here just north of the urban development here and it's within the Falls Jordan District B watershed protection overlay next slide please future land use map shows the property currently there's a industrial recreation and residential low medium density residential future land use designation for the site and the applicant is seeking a change for the industrial portion of the site to low density residential there is no change to the recreation open space designated area next slide please the there are several sheets included in the packet and my apologies I believe this is only just one but the slideshow does show the access points the building and parking envelope the riparian buffers tree coverage areas project boundary buffers and this is the top portion of the site on the north side of east carver you can see some of the area on the south side of east carver street as well there a portion of it is cut off the plan also does include densities and and unit numbers as well next slide up there is the second southern portion southern portion that shows the area just north of Oxford road so that's area two and area three in terms of the text commitments that have been included on the development plan there's a short highlight here to which would include a mixture of housing types apartments townhouse and single family as I mentioned before with a minimum of 100 units of each type there's a dedication of 10 feet of right of way along oxford old oxford road there's a variety of transportation improvements associated with the transportation impact analysis the applicant has offered a text commitment in dealing with providing additional asphalt for a future bicycle lane along old oxford road constructing a bus pullout and pad shelter along east carver street and also closing the unopened public right of way for two streets that are unimproved that would be prior to site plan approval next slide the applicant has offered a number of additional text commitments that have been reviewed and approved by staff which I would like to read into the record a minimum of 21% preserved tree coverage is provided which is an increase from what is in your packet prior to the issuance of a certificate of occupancy provide a one-time $10,500 contribution to the Durham public schools prior to the issuance of a certificate of occupancy provide a one-time $30,000 contribution to the city of Durham dedicated housing fund prior to the issuance of the 200th certificate of occupancy provide a one-time $37,500 contribution to the city of Durham dedicated housing fund a minimum of 30% of the townhouse units shall be single car garage bays or less a minimum of three of the following items shall be provided at the time of site plan dog park tot lot disc golf play fields pocket parks community garden nature trails pool or clubhouse and clubhouse additionally the applicant has offered the following five proffers as well excluding the apartments the average block length shall not exceed 700 feet block length shall be defined as the distance from intersection to intersection or project boundary measured along the center line of the street in order to promote a variation in home appearance at home appearance no townhouse or single family unit can be constructed with a front exterior elevation or front facade or color palette that is identical to the home on either side or directly across the street from it all townhouse and single family units shall include a front-facing gable architectural feature transparent windows and or hardware shall be included on all garage doors and all units shall include a front-facing I'm sorry that's a repeat there there is a minimum of 20% open space shall be provided and I believe that includes the additional text commitments associated with the graphic and design commitments I mentioned the graphic commitments earlier the design commitments include a variety of roof types a variety of exterior building materials and architect architectural features as well next slide please and in terms of the comprehensive plan policies the proposed zoning is not consistent with the future land use designation of industrial but the applicant is seeking a future land use amendment to low medium density residential which would be consistent with the rezoning request the proposal is consistent with the comprehensive plans including those listed on this screen and further detailed in the staff report next slide this just includes the additional comp plan policies that have been analyzed and are included in the staff report and finally staff determines that these requests are consistent with the comprehensive plan and applicable policies and ordinances and I will be happy to answer any questions that you have thank you so much I do have a number of individuals who have signed up to speak and I'm going to start with the proponents Lyle over cash uh yes traffic engineer uh laver cash with dhb here to answering questions regarding the traffic impact study thank you the next individual is tim cybers good evening chair hyman tim cybers with horvath associates there's a few items I'd like to point on and only take about two or three minutes if that's acceptable to do that this time thank you all right thank you I just want to point out that we've had as was mentioned for the last project this individual project has had three community meetings the first community meeting was held in december of 2018 the next one was march of 2019 and then again in june of 2019 the entire project area that's talked about tonight with all four projects has held a total of seven community meetings and then the eighth community meeting which was with the bractown community association which was the one that was canceled in early march the last meeting that was actually held out of those seven meetings was was in november of 2019 so roughly about seven months ago so all these meetings were done well before covid hit and the bractown community association member did attend multiple of these meetings so I just wanted to make that make that point I do want to want to let the commissioners know that we are as a as a group committed to meeting with the community association again we will go also have a neighborhood meeting so so we're going to do the reach out we will we will discuss more and get more input from the community I also the the second to last point I want to make is with our community meetings as was mentioned by one of the opponents that the neighborhood outreach is a 600 foot requirement all of our meetings we actually did a thousand foot radius requirement so not only have we had three specific meetings for this site each of those three meetings were a thousand foot radius notification zone as opposed to the 600 foot required notification zone however based on the based on the comments and to honestly save everybody a little bit of time tonight we are going to go ahead and ask for the deferral for this project as well we believe it's best to to get the community input as well as to keep these projects together I believe the community would be best to be able to hear these projects together moving forward so we do look forward to actually getting responses from the community as we've reached out to them I understand it's it takes a little bit of time to reach the community but but simple responses to an email saying hey we're in process is doing it so I do look forward to getting those responses and working with the community but but we are going to go ahead and ask for our 60-day deferral tonight for this project so thank you for your time thank you since we we're still in a public hearing and we do have individuals who have signed up to speak so I'm going to proceed through this listing the first individual that I have is Billy D hi everyone I I guess I'll just oh can I actually ask for my slides to be up for this maybe that's too much I just want to say I really appreciate that the Tim Savers and the Carver Street assemblage wanting to engage community input and asking for the 60-day extension and delay obviously if you can go forward a couple of slides obviously in our petition oh yeah go back one we did address both developments in our petition and I think that as Brandon Williams mentioned before and as many people have said this this process is challenging it is challenging to do community work I absolutely understand that the pace of development is usually much faster please understand that we have been as responsive as possible in the context of needing to get input from a group of people whenever responses come to the developer so I just want to encourage an understanding of the process of community engagement that it does take time and the process needs to be based on true input coming from the community we need to prioritize that instead of rapid responses to emails but I understand that can be frustrating where I think that this is an inspiring opportunity for real engagement from the larger community on these issues and I just want to say how much I appreciate people from all over Durham who've shared their support and their understanding that these are issues that affect neighborhoods all over Durham this case is particularly crucial because we're in a historically Black neighborhood and there are still some affordable housing here and we want to we want to make sure that that remains true we want to make sure that there are safe affordable homes for Black and Brown people in our city and I just have deep appreciation for the large intersectional understanding that people have brought to tonight's discussion and deep appreciation for the reflection that's happened here tonight thank you everyone thank you Constance Wright okay well thank you Tim for the bringing to another extension because like Billy was saying we have not had the chance to reach all of our residents we've done a lot of lab work but with the in fact on March the 14th you probably would have been pleased as far as how many people would have shown up to that meeting but because we had to cancel it we couldn't do that of course so I just want to thank you for agreeing to the extension and we will get to work on letting you know what our residents want in our community thank you thank you Vanessa Mason Evans I'm here I'm amazed right now um I want to say thank you to each and every one of you who have listened to our conversation tonight um I really think it's very important that um Bradtown is heard not just um in this issue but other issues like you said that will be that will be coming fourth in days and weeks and months to come we do want to work with the developers I hope the developers will want to see our vision as well as their own vision and what they're wanting to do again I just thank everybody who listened I thank every supporter who signed the petition each person who had a chance to speak tonight um I'm grateful for to everybody um I'm just thankful that's that's all I can say right now thank you thank you Reynolds Chapman I also just want to say thank you to um the whole planning commission and to Tim for the extension thank you all so much and for all the supporters thank you so let's Richie hi yeah I'll echo my thanks as well um you know it it definitely does my heart a lot of good to feel like Bradtown community is being listened to and so I appreciate that um I do love the suggestion of having some of the the commission um partner with the Bradtown community because I think um as someone kind of made the comment the the deck is stacked a little bit right so we are trying to scramble and understand this process and um we would love you know the partnership just in facilitating conversations um and helping our community to understand this process and how to engage better I think that would be um really really useful um and then I would just invite Tim and Pam to shift your perspective a little bit about what it means to have meaningful engagement um you can you know you can say we had the meeting we did what we were supposed to do but you know I was at a lot of those meetings and I saw how many people showed up and I know how many feet 1000 feet encompasses of Bradtown and given where the lots are it's not a lot of people um so a lot of people weren't invited to those meetings didn't know about those meetings and you know I think I don't think anyone on the commission is fooled with you know with that like community engagement is really hard work right we went door to door with surveys we went door to door with fires we had meetings that you know a cafe on Saturdays because people had to work and you know that that's what it takes um sometimes and so I think we've done a lot of heavy lifting to try and bring the community together and have that conversation but you'll know authentic dialogue when it happens right like it will be apparent and I just invite you to kind of shift your perspective and to value that honest conversation not did we tick the box so thank you everyone really appreciate it thank you um Katie Moore maybe I've lost her Courtney Evans Marie Hill Faison um I just I would like to thank everybody for participating in this process and allowing us to communicate in a productive way and to be able to understand each other and where each other is coming from so I appreciate this evening I'm glad I took the time to participate and I'm glad you took the time to hear our voices thank you thank you I see that Courtney Evans is still here is Courtney Evans would like to speak at this time okay if not Ebony Johnson Ebony Johnson is the last name that I have on the list of individuals who would like to speak I do see a hand raised Mimi Kessler I just want to say that I am really really happy with your decision tonight and I'm really happy that this particular um uh developers willing to to ask for the extension um and I would like to ask that the commissioners consider uh that the idea of formulating a um a task force to make text amendment changes to the UDO that would include requirements for affordable housing and and I mean affordable housing as it is defined um technically thank you very much thank you I do not have any other individuals who have signed up to I see another hand uh Latif wait a minute let's see Latif Yadav yes this is Lalit thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak so my question was like this particular development is all around Cub Creek Road and we would like to see the development of Cub Creek Road along with this project so that's all I had to say thank you let me check once again to see if there are other people other individuals who would like to speak to this issue I see no additional hands let me check my own I do see a hand among our panelists uh commissioner Miller Madam Chair it's appropriate this time um I want first to express my thanks to Mr. Saivers and then uh to the commission make the motion that uh the public hearing in this case be continued until our august 11th uh meeting uh Madam Chair uh I will second that motion I also want to express my thanks to Mr. Saivers motion by commissioner Miller and second by commissioner brine that we uh continue this project until our august 11 meeting all in favor of this particular continuous let it be known by a roll call vote please okay I'm going to start with uh commissioner MacGyver commissioner Lowe commissioner Baker yes commissioner Santiago yes commissioner Keaton yes and commissioner Miller yes chair Hyman yes vice chair Busby yes commissioner Al Turk yes commissioner Durkin yes yes commissioner brine yes commissioner Johnson yes commissioner Morgan yes and commissioner Williams yes this unanimous 14-0 to continue the case until august 11th I do see a hand raised uh commissioner I'm going to recognize commissioner Al Turk at this time thank you chair um I just wanted to um come back to the idea that was raised by commissioner Baker about forming a committee that I guess it uh facilitate some of the discussions around these cases but also kind of larger discussions uh around greenfield development I think commissioner Miller made a good point that um it might be good to discuss that today rather than next Tuesday because it is related to these particular cases um and uh so if I don't know if if we have some time but I think it would be good to hear that and maybe have a discussion about it uh before people leave uh the the meeting um commissioner's I was just going to add that we're we're through all our regular business so we do have time if you would like to um add this under new business um we can we can go ahead and discuss it now yes thank you so we will add this as a new business item um I do see a hand at this time commissioner Durkin you have a comment just related to that if we were going to okay all right yes we've added we've added this under uh new business I think the the committee or subcommittee regarding UDO provisions that we're particularly concerned about and where we think that things like affordable housing can be amplified within the UDO I think is a good idea and important I I struggle with whether it's appropriate to have subcommittees for specific applications I'm not aware that we've done that I something about it Rob doesn't quite sit with me quite right we all have the ability as individual commissioners to work with applicants and the community on an application outside of a formal subcommittee that's already established and is not something that we need to have a particular motion or agreement on as long as we're not all meeting in violation of the open meeting rules one of the things that I heard um from commissioner Baker and I'm I'm going to throw it out there to see whether or not commissioners are interested in establishing a subcommittee that would and and maybe let me get back to mr. uh commissioner Baker to see to clarify what it is that you would want to do and and how you would work with this particular group so if I could hear from you then um we'll see if there's other interests I want to acknowledge what um commissioner Durkin just said and what a few other commissioners uh spoke to and also what I just heard from the community members it sounds like they are prepared to meet with the developer without any sort of formal assistance from the planning commission in the form of a subcommittee uh so therefore um I uh I'm not proposing to form a subcommittee um to assist I do think that it makes sense that as necessary we can all you know work work with the uh with the neighborhood um I am still interested in forming a subcommittee and I think that I'm hearing other interests on the on the planning commission of forming a subcommittee um to explore some of the um necessary changes to address a lot of the issues that we have regularly spoken about um which would of course reach out to the full commission for comment um it would work over the span of of several months thank you are they uh the chair recognizes commissioner Busby thank you madam chair I said it earlier I think it's a good idea and the only question madam chair that I had was the status of the existing committee that has been working on the item that I believe is on Tuesday night's agenda and so I think it would it may make sense for us to wrap up that committee's work before we create a new committee uh but I'm open to at least getting a sense tonight while we're here and I think we just saved ourselves a good bit of time with the the proffer that was made to uh to continue the last case for two cycles but I'm open to hearing who has interest in serving I think that's always been our biggest challenge for those of us that have served on committees previously it's a lot of work and so I just want to make sure we have enough folks that are willing to dig in and do the work but if we do I think it's a great idea and I would support it well and let me just say that since um the last subcommittee which was the affordable housing you know the affordable housing amendment we were not able to complete that we did have and it's difficult to have a subcommittee in this environment uh it was difficult to um we had a huge number of people who were interested and worked with us during our initial meetings um we then had a shutdown for a period of time and then I actually did some outreach to see whether or not we could continue in a virtual environment and did not get the kind of response back that I needed in order to be able to continue so that's one of those things that we will discuss because it will be back on our agenda and we will need to discuss whether or not um we will we will need to discuss whether or not to continue the case or simply vote it up or vote it down but at this time I'm not hearing um I'm not hearing a new subcommittee and um and plus why don't we check to see how many people would be interested in serving on a subcommittee uh Commissioner Baker would like to know that so let's just see by a show of hands who would like to serve on such a subcommittee so Madam Chair if I may yes um and I think in my case I would be interested in serving I don't believe I have the capacity to serve at the moment with three children who I'm also kind of co-teaching and working full-time in this current environment so but I believe I believe Commissioner Baker would be interested in serving if if I would understand it correctly I saw Commissioner Alturk raise his hand well I'm seeing I'm seeing a list of hands that are raised on the zoom raise hand right yeah I didn't know some of those hands were raised before the question they were all cleared out well they're new these are new hands these are new hands then we're good rock and roll people these are new hands I see uh Commissioner Santiago is interested uh Commissioner Williams is interested and Commissioner Miller now I might add Commissioner Baker well Commissioner Commissioner Baker would be chairing it okay I just want to see him say yes well he is the one who raised his own I want to know if he was somebody who lit a fuse and ran away well let's hear from Commissioner Baker as far as whether or not you would be interested in chairing such a subcommittee yes I would be interested in chairing it yes wow well then I think we have enough interest uh Commissioner Williams Commissioner Miller Commissioner Santiago and Commissioner Baker have volunteered to be a subcommittee and I I don't know if this is appropriate either I can I'm happy to be a technical resource for someone who kind of does this and deals with uh formal housing regulations and statutes all day every day I don't have the capacity to serve on a subcommittee at the moment but I'm happy to kind of bounce ideas off of especially uh regulation statutory language I'm just going to offer this as a word of caution as someone who um you know who made an attempt to have a subcommittee and did not was not successful I do not like to not finish something and we were not able to complete this particular project or the project that we were working on with the amendment so it's difficult to work in this environment I see two hands I'm going to recognize Commissioner Busby and then Commissioner Williams uh thank you Madam Chair I first I just wanted to say I don't believe you failed in your assignment well it it's not done it's not done obviously circumstances have changed we we set that committee up when we were meeting in person in City Hall before there was a pandemic with uh state and citywide limits on the number of people who could meet so I say that I appreciate your efforts and then the second thing I was going to say was thank you to those who are willing to serve I do think we will I think it's helpful for us to have a point person on the planning commission the planning department staff because I think one of the challenges Chair Hyman ran into is that any of these meetings need to be properly noticed and the public needs to be able so it's I think we do need a staff person that can work with Commissioner Baker as he shares the work and then I would just say I would encourage the committee let's just make this a regular agenda item even if we have to add it to each subsequent meeting agenda just for a quick you see it's a picture of a person the chair recognizes Sarah Young thank you for coming to our rescue Sarah sure I would be happy to be the point person for you all with this I will tell you that I think this could coordinate really nicely with some UDO text amendments that we have planned for the upcoming year and so my ask to the commission would be that we work together in concert we can provide you with some resources and support as well and hopefully come out of this with even better proposal to gather so I'm very happy to to work with that and it checks one of my work program items off for the year so very good maybe we can add the text amendment that we were working on to yours to your subcommittee uh commit if I can madam chairman one it's a committee not a subcommittee and two uh excuse me oh who am I Tom Miller okay I'm sorry madam chairman I forgot the rules thank you we should call it a committee not a subcommittee a subcommittee is a committee of a committee and this is just a committee of a commission thank you for that clarification as well will duly noted and I think at some point we need to develop a charge for it so that we know where its edges are and I think that's Mr Baker's homework um and then with regard to the other committee uh we had a very valuable meeting where people got to speak in a non-public hearing sort of way to each other and with each other and so I would also not say that while I agree that we didn't complete the work we didn't fail in the work and the work is still out there we still have to decide what we're going to say on that case so uh as a participant in that meeting that we had in the uh late winter early spring whenever it was I think it was late winter uh I feel that my understanding of the issues and the um uh the positions of the stakeholders is dramatically enhanced and I'm sorry that all the commission members couldn't uh benefit from the same experience but please please don't consider that a failure I would not call that committee a COVID death no I definitely want to salvage um the work that we did on that committee because we spent the entire first day on just the definition of um of a family well known to change the definition of the family and so we were going from three people who were related to six people who were unrelated who could live in the same household and that was an extensive discussion and it still is an issue can we even get a summary of what we've already um and that's for the subcommittee you know because it was a lot of work done but you know what one person was responsible for putting that information together and we never did get that information so that's why I considered it to be unfinished so then I guess we're clear then that we are that we officially have a committee and that commissioner Baker is the chair of that committee and I'm going to recognize uh commissioner Busby at this time thank you ma'am chair I was just going to ask the process question I can't remember do we need to set do we need to have a vote to set this up uh or if not it is done but I would also recommend that if if it makes sense to commissioner Baker I mean if it if we could put this on Tuesday's agenda if you're able to come back with a scope as commissioner Miller recommended then this committee could again if it may not be a vote that we take if that's not the process but we could look at it in a couple days after our regular business and we can get this process moving let me double check with staff I can't remember what we did when we organized the committee before but Grace um so the chair can appoint the committee and based on the people that just volunteered you can appoint those people you do not have to take an actual or official vote to do that all right well it sounds like I wrote I wrote down that um commissioner Williams commissioner Miller commissioner Santiago and commissioner would be willing to serve on this committee uh commissioner Durkin was willing to serve as a resource as needed that's exactly right thank you all right that completes our new business unless there is some unreadiness about our discussion seeing no hands uh commissioner Altar there are some hands raised and I wasn't sure if this if they were related to this particular item or not um yes staff had a comment if you don't mind at some point I see a commissioners um hand raised okay the I thought these were volunteers for the committee so but I see Jamie Sonnyak's name as well so let me go ahead and recognize everybody on this list to be sure so uh Jamie yes I I'm sorry I didn't want to interrupt your business um while you guys were chatting but I did want to just um state for the record for those uh for the chair and for the commission and also for those who are still in the audience and listening for the two cases I did want to make it clear by the continuance that there will not be any further notice um so there won't be any letters or newspaper advertisement for the case so I didn't want folks to get concerned if they weren't receiving anything from uh from staff thank you that's important we appreciate that thank you commissioner williams yeah mute was on sorry I just wanted to say that it absolutely was not a failure and um before I could proceed with a virtual meeting I would need to know what time we would have to pick back up because as an essential employee I still work every day from seven to four and I physically go into work so it's quite difficult for me to kind of just time out and say hey I need to talk on my phone for two and a half hours to try to straighten out some issues on a committee so if that could take place after hours kind of like the way these do then that would be great but that's also information I wanted to share going forward because not everyone is actually working from home because I know I definitely am not in cannot thank you for that clarification I appreciate that because all of the times that I attempted to arrange and you're correct were during the daytime yes man uh commissioner Durkin oh no I didn't have my hair raised oh there's the little hand okay not on purpose anyway thank you thank you I just want to make sure that um because we're getting close to adjournment and I wanted to make sure that there were no additional comments no additional business and we have resolved everything that we um had on the table all right motion to adjourn when staff I was just gonna say thank you everybody staff doesn't have anything else so you can adjourn whenever you would like to thank you motion to adjourn I move that we adjourn thank you bye