 Hi, everyone, welcome to Don't Sight It, Write It, what professors think about Wikipedia. I am Leanna Davis. Some of you may know me from my work on the Wikipedia and Education User Group globally, but I'm here today representing the Wiki Education Foundation, which is the organization that runs the education program in the United States and Canada. And I am joined here today with four of our wonderful professors and one of my colleagues who will be on this panel discussion. A couple of quick housekeeping tips before we get started. The first one is I just wanna extend a huge thank you to all of the Wikimani organizers for their excellent work putting this conference together and a special thank you to the translators who are making this possible to happen in so many languages. It's great to see that inclusiveness and I really appreciate all of your hard work. I will try to speak slowly to make translation easier and hopefully my fellow panelists will as well. But we all get excited about Wikipedia and education and speak a little fast. So hopefully that'll go well. Second note is to please go ahead and put questions in the chat. I have some questions I'm gonna kick us off with, but we wanted this session to be interactive. And so if there's questions you have for professors who teach with Wikipedia, this is a great opportunity for you to ask them. Just stick them in the chat and I'll kick us off with some initial questions and then we'll have some time for questions from all of you who are watching too. So I will get started with introductions and then you are next to me on my view. So I will go ahead and start with you if you can introduce yourself and share how long you've been teaching with Wikipedia and where you teach. Hello everyone, I am gonna try my best as a person from New York to speak slowly. I am deeply appreciative of the opportunity to be a part of this esteemed panel. I appreciate being called the professor. I am still a PhD student, PhD candidate at the University of California, Berkeley in the sociology department where I have been teaching with Wikipedia. Oh goodness, it's either been six or seven years consistently now, including semesters and summers where students receiving independent study credits have been working to tackle the lack of information, publicly available information that's out there on privacy, cybersecurity and surveillance. We've been at this for quite some time and I'm very proud of the mostly women of color, mostly undergrads that have been doing this work with me for the last six, seven years. Hey, thanks. Shira. Hi, I'm Shira Klein, speaking to you from Orange County, California. And I have been using Wikipedia with my students for 10 years. I think I was one of the first people to join the program before there was, I think before Wiki Education even existed. And yeah, so that's kind of the long and the short of it. I have been starting to get interested in disinformation on Wikipedia and I've sort of started to research that, actually it turned from a teaching project to research project, but I still have my students edit on Wikipedia and the courses I teach where they edit our history courses, Jewish history, migration history and European history. Okay, thanks, Heather. Hi everybody, I'm really excited to be here. I'm passionate about Wikipedia and believe in the idea of universal free knowledge that it embodies. I'm a professor in the department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. I'm also chair of my department. I've been teaching with Wikipedia since spring 2019. I have used it in classes with everybody from first year undergraduates through PhD candidates. And my goal has been to engage the students in writing original articles for the forum on topics relating to Middle Eastern and North African history and to the history of the University of Pennsylvania and its scholars. Okay, thank you, and Delia. Hi everyone, I wanna echo Heather and say thank you all for being here and it's just lovely to be a part of this conversation. My name is Delia Stevenson. I am an assistant professor of African American Literature at the University of Florida. And I teach, this fall will be my third time teaching the Wikipedia assignment. I believe my first year was right before the pandemic and I generally work with the wiki African diaspora. So we generally work on African American literature of the 19th century. So thank you all. Thank you, and Ian. Hi, I'm Ian Ramjohn. I am the Wikipedia expert with Wikipedia Education. I'm based in Michigan, originally from Trinidad and Tobago and I am a plant ecologist by training. I've been with wiki education since 2014, supporting, I don't know, hundreds, thousands of classes and students and instructors. And I've been a Wikipedia since 2004. And again, thanks everybody for being here. Especially the panel. Yes, thank you all. So I wanna jump right in with my first question, which I'm going to send to Shira, which is why do you teach with Wikipedia? Yeah, I'm just gonna time myself just one second. The reason I teach with Wikipedia, I mean, there are a whole bunch of them, but my biggest reason I think is because I see it as a type of service learning. I see it as a way in which students can help the world at the risk of sounding sort of idealistic or naive and to sort of explain that the students in the college where I teach are so privileged and we have access to all this information that is behind paywalls for most people and they have the privilege of taking classes with great professors and so they have so much to give the world and by having them edit Wikipedia and incorporate scholarship into Wikipedia and improve information that the world can read, I see it as sort of their chance to do good or my chance to do good or my chance to force them to do good and through them do good. And yeah, I especially felt this in the pandemic when I really wanted to contribute, but I couldn't because of my family situation because of everything that was happening during the pandemic and so Wikipedia was my one little chance to do something for the community. And even now when things are sort of a little more normal, that's the way I see it. Great, thanks. Delia, did you have any follow-up stuff you wanted to add to this question? Oh no, I was just, I literally was just amenning in the amen corner over here. I'm so much excited. Excellent, excellent. Okay, the next question is for Heather. What are your students' perspectives on Wikipedia before they take your class and how does that shift throughout the term? So a couple of things. On the one hand, there's a kind of an extreme. Some students think Wikipedia is a go-to source for everything and they can trust it because it's out there. And then there are others who think it's a really dodgy source and they shouldn't trust it at all. And so I try to make them all skeptical and supportive of Wikipedia at the same time. And by the end of the class, they realize that through editing, they become more aware of the meticulous sourcing that is required and they become more aware of the potential for revising and improving text in a way that can translate into their own skills as prose writers. So that's sort of a before and after. But one of the really striking things also is a lot of my students seem to think that when they start that everything that's important is up there on Wikipedia. And by the end of the semester, after we write articles and we do that through teamwork together, they, many of them say by the end, wow, I thought everything was up there and now that we've just written and done this article together, I can't imagine that it wasn't up there before. And I think it makes them more keenly aware of the gaps in Wikipedia, the potential for improvement and how it can be a forum that requires and benefits from constant addition and revision and that it's a process. So it really benefits their own research. They gain a lot of respect for it and they say especially they gain respect with regard to the rigorous sourcing requirements and also copyright requirements for images, which is something that we also end up discussing a lot during the semester. That and finally, the gaps. The gaps in Wikipedia, it's a big thing that they become more aware of as we go on. Any other panelists wanna chime in on that? Yes, I wanted to actually chime in on this one because I think for the Wikipedia project that I have taught, this has been at the, let me slow down, this has been at the upper division undergraduate level. So these are juniors and seniors. I have not done this with any other groups or graduate students or first years or second years, but what has been the overall or the majority of people's opinion about Wikipedia in my classes have been like, why is she, we're in this English Literature course. Why are we doing something on Wikipedia? It's anyone can edit it and so it's not a legitimate source and they have this type of, they've been trained from high school, like don't use Wikipedia, which I think is nuanced, like don't cite Wikipedia per se, but then by the end of the Wikipedia project after we spend eight or nine weeks doing this project, they literally are like, Wikipedia should always be the first place you go to find information. And as Heather was saying, the sources are just fact checked and they have to come from these types of sources that helps them to be able to use those sources to go to the original source themselves. So I think in terms of sources, my students really found that useful and also doing the Wikipedia project really allowed them to think outside of what African American Literature is and then thinking about issues of access. I know we're gonna talk about this a little bit later and things like that. So I think that I can see a major shift in the ways in which people approach Wikipedia, especially because they think about the community. Like someone is out there, they're watching my page and they notice when I put another sentence in this page on this certain journal. And so they really think like, wow, I am a part of this knowledge. I am putting knowledge out there that is oftentimes behind this paywall that people will be allowed to have for free and open access. So I think that students, even though sometimes they don't really care a lot for the coding, but others do, but they really see the overall impact that Wikipedia has on knowledge producing. Absolutely. So the next question is also for you here, Delia. So I'm gonna keep it on you. We know Wikipedia content gets better from students' contributions, but what do your students get out of a Wikipedia assignment? I think this is kind of what you just, we're just touching on, but maybe you wanna expand on that a little. Yes. So a lot of times my students really, we talk a lot about the privilege that comes with being in this university and having access to databases that one would have to pay for outside of having this access. So many of my students have found it utmost importance to get this information. They feel like, wow, somehow I can be, I'm seen as a gatekeeper to this knowledge and I want anyone to be able to have access to this knowledge. It shouldn't be behind a paywall. So I think that having that mindset really motivates my students to fish for more information and to actually put more effort into improving and creating Wikipedia pages. And so I think that many of the students understand a different type of writing as well. Generally in my classes, there are a lot of analysis or different types of writing, different types of writing that allows them to expound upon things and take things from the text, but Wikipedia is a different type of writing and they always think it's going to be easier. But a lot of times it becomes a little bit more challenging to them, but it allows them to use their mind in a different way than they would ordinarily in other literature courses or other humanities courses that they might be taking that has a writing component. So the students are getting a lot in terms of writing, in terms of thinking about sources, in terms of collaborating as well. Great, is there anyone else who wants to share other things beyond, I think Delia did a great job of summarizing what a lot of students get out of it. Is there any other sort of learning objectives you want to share as well? I would just add some terms that haven't come up yet. One that I emphasize in my classes is the role of students in producing public facing scholarship. Instead of having them write papers that they'll hand in in a class and never look at again, by writing for Wikipedia, they put something that can benefit the public for years to come. And another phrase that hasn't come up yet would be digital citizenship, participating in communities of knowledge within the world. And then it also, I think we see an echo of that in the title of this panel, don't cite it, write it. The idea that students can be original producers of knowledge and scholarship and not only consumers. Absolutely. Thank you. It looks like we lost Nanette here, who was my next question. She was in a dodgy internet situation. So hopefully she will rejoin shortly, but I'm gonna jump to some of the questions that are coming in on the chat. So we've already got a handful of questions. So thank you. The first one of these I'm actually going to send over to Ian. Oh, Nanette is back. So I will ask the original question then after all. Nanette, so my next question is for you, which is knowledge equity is one of the pillars of our Wikimedia movement strategy. How do you see your students' contributions as advancing knowledge equity? Thanks so much for the question and for your patience in my returning to the session. So my gaggle of students, sometimes as few as three, often as many as 50, represent, I'd say, the diversity, exceptional diversity that is the United States. Large amounts of women, almost all exclusively people of color, we set to work on on Eeking away it. I think that the magic percentage was something like 10% of Wikipedia editors are people of color and women. So just in our presence in the space, in our Eeking away at any type of work in the space, we're helping to guide Wikipedia to a better place of equity with regards to the voices that are contributing. My students, I'd say are often very excited about learning digital literacy skills and finding a way to live up to their expectation when they arrive at college of doing something to change the world. And so I think in our gathering of women and people of color who are focused on a topic that can be very difficult for most people to wrap their mind around on a good day, privacy, cybersecurity and surveillance. I think that also our topic area also goes a long way with equity is we're translating as many others have mentioned paywalled highly complex articles for a lay audience. So the parents who are trying to decide if they should buy a connected toy, a toy that interacts with the internet can look at the page that we created and learn about that. They won't have to find that information in a highly complex computer science journal or dig into Wired Magazine, which I love. To find that information, it's at their fingertips. And I'm deeply proud of them for the work that they do towards that and their bravery. Some of my students come from countries where Wikipedia no longer exists. And so there's a beautiful thing about the work that they're doing to make sure that voices, whether Wikipedia exists in their country are not are heard. Thanks and that was a great answer. Is there anyone else who wants to talk about the sort of context of knowledge equity as a cornerstone of your assignments? Well, I would just add that in writing biographical articles, which is most of what I do with my students, we try to enhance equity by featuring many women. And in my case, many people of Middle Eastern and North African origin in the Middle Eastern North Africa and among people who have settled in the United States or in the English-speaking world. So I try to make them aware of knowledge equity that way. But then also to emphasize this idea of having accessible articles. That's a form of equity too, as you were noting. It's to write in clear prose that non-experts can understand. That's a very important aspect of promoting equity through Wikipedia. I'd love to jump in and share one other thing that I forgot until you mentioned the Middle East. So one of the projects our lab works on is translating articles across Wikipedia. So we'll find a great piece written on privacy, cybersecurity and surveillance and bring that into English at Wikipedia, not just the opposite. So I think the opposite going from English to others happens quite a bit. So that's something we're quite proud of as well. We have an initiative that seeks to translate articles on privacy, cybersecurity and surveillance across languages as well. Absolutely. Shira. I was just gonna chime in not with a way to, I guess, improve equity, but a challenge that I've been having in that regard. So I teach Jewish history and something I sort of had a vision of having my students edit articles relating to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I don't know if this will come under equity so much, but sort of social justice and making sure that the historical narratives that scholars come up with are represented on Wikipedia rather than, I guess, national ethos narratives. And that's actually impossible because that area is one of the few areas on Wikipedia where the topics are, you cannot edit them unless you're very experienced. So I just thought I would chime in because just to say that there are also some hindrances to the sort of wonderful free editing. Absolutely. Well, we're getting a bunch of questions coming in on the chat here. So thank you to those of you who have put questions in. I think I will move over to the questions from the audience at this point. And I'm gonna send the first one here to Ian, which the question is, the panelists that we have here today seem to be from human sciences. What about natural science and engineering and any thoughts or experiences? And Ian, do you wanna share about some of the other courses we support? So we support an awful lot of courses in the natural sciences and probably one of the easier areas to write about is species articles. We always get a lot of people, a lot of students creating articles about species. There are a huge amount of gaps in that area. It's, you know, with millions of species to write about, there's almost an unending collection of things and also higher taxa. Apart from that, we work with quite a few medical schools, working with medical students who improve Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia articles on medical topics are some of the harder topics to work around because of the sourcing guidelines and the real world implications of medical content on Wikipedia. So, you know, those are great people to work with. We also have classes in places like immunology and so on. Beyond that, there is a range of engineering and robotics and bioengineering and classes like that that do contribute. Sometimes it's easier to contribute in the sciences because the information is a lot more sort of fact-based and there's less need to account for different perspectives of scholars because there's sort of one broadly accepted way of working on things. Sometimes it's more difficult because, well, climate change. So, but, you know, there's, yeah, I think we probably support, about half of what we support is probably in the sciences and the natural sciences engineering and very occasionally math class. No, those are always challenge. Can I jump in on this one as well? Absolutely. So, I appreciate the way Ian expressed that. It reminds me of Neil deGrasse Tyson's quote about physics is easy compared to sociology. So, I'm sure a lot of us, especially if you're teaching across the academic spectrum, will have students in the natural sciences. So one of our favorite, my favorite privacy articles that came out of our lab is on DNA encryption. It was written by one of our students that studied biology. So, I love that question. And I would say to the person that asked it, I suspect almost everyone here has probably coached somebody or worked with someone on an article that isn't quite in their area of expertise, but overlaps with their course. It's one of the things I love about my lab is every major French, Spanish, biology, computer sciences has worked with this on this. I think it really speaks to the interdisciplinary possibilities that I think higher education really stands for. So, I love that question. Great. We have another question from the audience here. Are you concerned about the differences in the form of writing between Wikipedia and other academic writers? Editing Wikipedia certainly has elements of creativity, but it also has no original research while essay writing is often mostly about creative synthesis or having an angle and referencing in this case the WPSA short link. Well, I would just add that I use Wikipedia as one component in a class and then I always have students do an original research paper as well, at least one, and have them do other kinds of creative assignments as well. So, I see it as part of a class and not as the sole focus of a class. I think that's a great question and I find difficulty with it. My students always want to make an argument because that's what I teach them to do in the rest of the class and they're always perplexed at why it has to be descriptive or why they can't bring in primary sources into original research. So, yeah, that is definitely something. And then the other thing that I think Heather was getting at before about how you write equitably because so often scholars don't write that way. They write by form an expert audience and they use jargon and so my students also want to do that because of course whatever scholars do that's the best thing, right? And so that's also something that we have to sort of work on or work against. Yeah, so I think that's a great question. I love that question as well because it touches on the importance of teaching students the wide array of ways that they might write. And I would also add to that that never, if the person who asked is an early in their career, Wikipedia, never underestimate the ability of the community to police something that's not written the way it's supposed to. I've gotten those emails and my students definitely have as well that the community does a beautiful job of guiding folks when something is not as it should be. And I think that's a great lesson for our students as well as we teach them and as we all struggle with our own perfectionism that sometimes you don't get it right the first time and that's okay. Yeah, this is, oh Ian, sorry, go ahead. I just like to mention some feedback that Lane got recently from instructor talking about their students saying that the difficulty in writing for Wikipedia includes the fact that they can't use lengthy quotes and that they've always done this and this forced them to treat sources differently because if you have to put things in your own words you have to understand what you're saying while if you can, what they're saying while if you can just quote, it's easier to sort of assume that it's in there and that it really improved their writing across discipline. So I thought that was a really nice sort of other side of this. I mean, building upon that point I think writing for Wikipedia has noticeably improved my students' writing skills as a whole. It's partially because they then look at articles critically and realize what sounds confusing or they realize what it means when something is sort of oblique or sounds like jargon. And then the other nice thing about Wikipedia is I get them working as teams and which is fun for them in the classroom but then they can also edit each other's writing and the result is that the pros improves and I think they bring some of those skills again back to other forms of writing that they end up doing in the class but also in their careers as they go forward. Absolutely, these are great questions from the audience so definitely keep them coming. We are a couple of minutes ahead of you so put your questions in the chat now so that we will have time to answer them before we wrap up the session. Another question that we had, are there particular Wikipedia policies that the students you've worked with have found to be unintuitive? Well, I mean, I think we've alluded to it before but the fact that students cannot use oral sources or archival sources, which for historian, those are gold. If you do an advanced degree, a bachelor's degree or you do a PhD in history, you have to cite or you ideally would cite primary sources so I think one thing that surprises them too is that it then becomes easier to use more internet sources which are not necessarily of the highest quality relative to oral sources so that is one tricky thing that they struggle to understand and to deal with. Yeah, I'll add to that. I think this is such a great question and also the one after it is such a great question. I think one thing that my students don't fight intuitive is WPUNDU and WPOR, so original sources, original research and then like that something has to be... That something... A new way, yeah. Right, is just not important enough to be in Wikipedia because they sort of ask themselves, well, why is it important enough for scholarship and not for Wikipedia? And that's very difficult for me to tackle often because I think that term undue is so subjective, right? Undue is what the other person thinks sort of, you know, how they say like politics is what the other guy thinks. Well, so is undue and so very often I struggle with that. Like they'll find an essay about, I don't know, a certain topic, historical topic and I'll say, no, that's too esoteric. And I'll say, well, why? Like why can something else go in and I struggle with that? Absolutely, we'll move on to the next question here. What if any assurances do you find your students needing to feel safe or welcomed or empowered to edit and do the assurances students need very based on qualities like race and gender? I have strong feelings on this one. I don't know if anybody has come across this but I find that editing Wikipedia induces unbelievable anxiety for some of my students. I don't know if any of you have come across that but to the point that sometimes I need to modify the assignment and to allow them to submit an assignment just to me saying what they would have done on Wikipedia. But I mean, I'm talking panic attacks and like severe anxiety. I think it's partly just the idea that thousands of people are gonna read what they write or hundreds of thousands depending on the visibility of the article. And partly just the idea that it's gonna be up there forever. And those are also good things for some students. It makes them more attuned to the quality of their writing and if they'll write a sloppy paper just for me they'll be sure to write using clean language for Wikipedia. But yeah, that's something that pains me because I think my students are stressed enough without having this extra anxiety. And I sometimes think of how I can work on it with them but not being a therapist or anything. I don't have very many ideas. But yeah, and I don't know if it varies by gender or ethnic group or race or disability. I haven't really tracked who among my students gets anxious. I just see that it happens every single semester. I see that some of my, well, to be honest I was very anxious about Wikipedia. I did it because the first time I did it I did because my university is what are you doing in digital humanities? So I said, okay, I need to do something in digital humanities. What are my other colleagues doing? I said, oh, you can do Wikipedia. What is that? Okay, I will do Wikipedia. And there I go off to do Wikipedia and I applied. And I was so, you see the Wikipedia dashboard and it is laid out. But I know nothing about code. I knew nothing about what went into Wikipedia and I did not do enough research beforehand to understand I did some of the modules. So the first time I was doing it, I was so overwhelmed. I did it in an honors African-American literature course. So I only had about eight students. So we were kind of working on it together. But oftentimes I'd tell my students, oh, I don't know the answer to the question. Just go ask the Wikipedia person that can help you do those things. So I experienced that myself as I said, I can't do this. I don't know how to read this code. This is embarrassing. And, but my students somehow without my help, I have to be honest, really made some amazing articles. And so then I said, wait a minute, I or edited some amazing articles. So then I said, okay, Delia, you really need to work this out. And what I did was I took one of the, what is it, informing citizens course actually within who just, who just, it's just like a Wikipedia just got there. Like he just has so much information and so helpful. It was a course that actually guided me through. This is how you set up your dashboard. This is how, if you want to insert an image or different types of code that you can use or the easy type of code that I use like the picture code, you know, these sorts of things. And so that really, that one on that entering into this course that was over the summer really helped me prepare myself to be able to actually teach my students how to do it. The problem was I wasn't able to teach my students because it was such a challenge for me that I was almost frozen. But then the next time that went around when I saw that students were frustrated I can't do this as opposed to saying, telling them, okay, well, why don't you just go and ask the Wikipedia person to help you. I was like, okay, I struggled with this as well. And now I can actually show them how to do things. And I know that I take more class time helping my student making those errors and mistakes with them and then giving them a lot of encouragement and encouraging just to make one small edit. And let's put that out there. And okay, let's see what happens. So the students as well have anxieties but also it's something that's new. And I think that the more time that I spent doing it in class alongside of them as opposed to just I'm over here and they're doing the assignment really helped to alleviate or I think a lot of the anxieties that my students were having because I was collaborating with them. I was, okay, let's figure this out, you all. Or when they found something new, how to, they love giving each other those little barnyard animals that you can get. Like you've done a great job. And so when one person's figured out how to do that they would share it amongst the class. So it really was a way to connect my classes as opposed to being overall alienating. Yeah, we had a comment in the chat here while you were speaking that I think is great here in response to that, which is I think something amazing of this experience is that it disrupts that traditional power dynamic between a teacher who knows it all and is the expert versus the student who's doing everything for the first time, which is right in line with what you were saying there. And I would also add it's a great opportunity to bestow leadership on students from previous semesters. So I invite back and they're sometimes called buddies other times called coordinators, a person to help me run the project that has some experience. So students can reach out to them and ask them questions and they get the chance to see how a course works from the inside as well. So I hadn't thought about it as disrupting and thank you Delia for that and thank you Leanna for that. I think it's, and whoever put that quote in there, it, I love that disruption and I love the opportunity for students to then become teachers themselves in the space. Absolutely, absolutely. So I'm gonna move on to the next. We've got several more questions coming up here and we're running short on time. So I'm gonna move us on to the next question. This person writes, I'm a high school English teacher in the US. I love Wikipedia, but I see a real disconnect between what students are told about Wikipedia in high schools and how they are informed about it at the college level. How can we make the labeling of Wikipedia more in sync between primary and higher education campuses so students aren't experiencing a double take using Wikipedia as a valuable source? This is a great question that maybe requires some thought but I don't know if any of you have some initial thoughts here. Does Wikia have a high school initiative? We do not. We have talked about it. Maybe that person, it was the first class. But the Wikimedia Foundation has reading Wikipedia in the classroom. Yeah, the Wikimedia Foundation's reading Wikipedia in the classroom program is great. Melissa was actually the one who had that comment I read prior to it. She works on that project with the foundation team. So yeah, I definitely recommend looking into that. In fact, I think she's putting a comment about it in the chat right now, a little behind us. So I don't let students cite Wikipedia in research papers. And it's interesting that the title of this panel is don't cite it, write it. I do tell them don't cite it. But right, unless they were to write a research paper about Wikipedia, I should also add we read articles, scholarly articles about Wikipedia, the politics of Wikipedia and its potential. So I tried to make them aware of it from an intellectually critical way. Great. The next question is, how has it decided how much the reader already knows? So I think this is maybe a question for you about sort of your students when they're working on articles, how do they decide what the reader comes to Wikipedia with? For my students, a lot of times we're, I have them write like, okay, generally when you're Googling something, Wikipedia is, if it's not the first hit, it's like the second or third. So a lot of times people might not know anything or they might know a little bit. But where my students use to gauge how much information or what information to put into the Wikipedia page, they actually use other Wikipedia pages as a guide to do that. And I encourage that because oftentimes they'll say, okay, well, if it's a person, you wanna know some of the overall, who they were, what they did, and then you wanna have personal life or their filmography or conflict or things like that. So they use other Wikipedia pages in order to determine or have some sort of skeleton to be able to feel in. And then as they go, based upon the editing that they're getting, they will even decide, okay, well, what else would I put in here or what should I take out or what is not clear? And I think they never leave my course thinking, I am done with this. There's no more that can be written on this article or on this Wikipedia page. So I think they're constantly need re-amount re-imagining what the audience should know. So it's not static. I think they start with something, they start with, okay, this is how these other pages are modeling it and I'll add that information, but then perhaps by the end of the course, what they might put or not add could drastically change. Great, yeah, we're getting short on time here. So we have a couple of questions remaining. I'm just gonna answer one of them here, which was does everyone encourage their students to edit without logging in or actually registering for an account? We at Wiki Education actually require the students to register for accounts. So we can monitor what they're doing and that's a cornerstone of sort of our programmatic support so that we get flagged when students are running into trouble. Ian does primarily and Ian can jump in and help them kind of as needed, which is important for the support we provide for our faculty like the four of the instructors who are on this panel today. Another question though for the panelists is are any of you familiar with collaborative reading platforms like Hypothesis, which is an annotation platform? I'm not sure if you are and if you are, how do these compare to Wikipedia as a learning tool? Shira. Yeah, I use Hypothesis regularly in my courses but it's completely different. It's like apples and oranges, so Hypothesis. I use that to make sure that students do the reading. I'll have them annotate documents that we're reading so you can put any PDF into Hypothesis and have students annotate it on the document and then they can see what other people are annotating. But it's confined to the classroom. So where it's confined to, whoever you tell it to be confined to, it's not available for the world at large. So whereas Wikipedia, when they're editing Wikipedia, they're writing for the entire world to see. So I like both of them, but yeah, for very, very different purposes and goals. Great, and I think the last question here, we've got two minutes left. So the question says, I'm curious if you saw the recent news study that showed Irish judges were influenced by Wikipedia in their rulings. This could have huge implications for Wikipedia's influence in the real world and wonder if you think this information would motivate more of your colleagues to teach with Wikipedia. Did anyone see that? I did. Heather, go for it. Yeah, I mean, this is why in a way, any kind of scholarship is a work of social and political engagement. And the article was about how very specific words, phrases, conceptions that shaped articles, then informed legal decisions. And you can see that in many realms. People are reading Wikipedia, even if they don't cite it. Even if they don't cite it in a scholarly article or book for example. Thank you.