 It's a very good welcome to give you announcements for automated traction, so please keep coming and find a seat to make yourselves at home. And I want to say a very warm welcome on behalf of everyone here on site to the final day of the OER conference. So give yourselves a very warm round of applause. I know that some of us had a lot of fun last night, some of us were outside the shooting halls in Epidermas and waiting for firemen to rescue them. The fire was safe, but now we all know what pajamas look like. Something I was expecting, but I think there's a limit to that. So should we be here. I wanted to thank everybody involved, particularly the two near Edoa Chai, the tidalist colleagues who are working in all the rooms again today and who are presenting sessions as well. It's been absolutely fantastic to be here. And also another big welcome, and thank you to our OGM delegates. Give yourselves a shout out, Gina. Also to everyone joining us online, thanks to our platform, Partners Cultural World. And if you'd like to see more of the weekend through in action, I believe there is a one session today, two actually, where you can see Lauren and Jim in action. And they may be singing, who knows. It's been fantastic to see so do you share your impressions of OER on Mastodon and on other sites that we won't be mentioning here. And I wanted to give a surprise shout out to our photographer down here. Sometimes official OER photographer, but there will be official photographs flooding across your networks later on today. And a big thank you for turning that around so quickly to us. It's an absolutely fabulous capture of what OER is like up close and personal. Now, the moment you've all been waiting for, today's housekeeping announcement. Yesterday, our studio has become room 209. For those of you who requested, you had to room 211, wait and leave your luggage. It is leaving at your own risk, but it's only us in the building. So hopefully, hopefully you've got other valuables. Please do use that to bring your suitcase somewhere. And unfortunately, one of our number, Melissa Highton, is unwell, and we had to cancel her session. So I'm very glad to have Stuart Nickel with her colleague. So if you'd like to learn more about the work of Stuart, we'll be able to read and talk to you in a minute. So with that housekeeping announcement is up finished. You are in for a wonderful day here at the OER Captains. And now, please put your hands together for Martin Werder, our co-chair for the story. Martin has done a good night. I think I had a sort of nightmare about that spider-attack thing. It's all right. Wonderful, studio great. So just ... I was asked to introduce to you, I think when did we say this person needs no instructions? I've known them for 15 or 20 years now. I think we met in the early 18th century still, and also didn't work very well, so it's been a bit of a warning to you guys, don't do blog posts, don't commit to other things. So yeah, that's all I'm going to let Dave come up and introduce himself. Good to see you all. Thanks for coming. This is a remarkable attendance for a second day morning. I appreciate your dedication. So, in 2019. I just finished, I just stopped working as the manager of medical school in Canada speaking of things you shouldn't try to do. So, for that and I had some time off and I thought I was going to try to pull together. The last 15, I would say 15 or 20 years of logging into some kind of focusing. I had this idea that there's this uncertainty layer happening beneath our culture that I can speak to. I was writing in March 2020 came along and then everybody knew that already had to go back start again. What this is the title of that book. I want to talk through some of the pieces that I've come to inside of that and some of the some of the struggles that I've had with trying to talk about abundance, trying to talk about what it means to us and try to talk about what it means in the context of older. So, this is me, actually it's not me, it's from my hometown, but I am from Canada. It is it's been snowing path here. I work at the University of Windsor and I'm a learning specialist. I think it's strategy and special projects. I speak about higher ed. I've done communications. I've done student orientation and I've done all kinds of different things inside of higher ed. But the thing that holds it together is my interest in what kind of internet means to our learning. So we're going to talk a little bit about learning and what it means and how it relates to technology and how our technologies have influenced that over the years. We're going to talk about abundance and what I think that means then we'll talk a little bit about how we can learn for a while. So what we're not going to do today is take a quiet, feel free to shout out some of you. I might as well say that too because if you do anyway then it sounds like it's listening to me. We're not going to allow for counting because that's capitalism. We're not going to throw things. We may break down rules here in a minute or you'll see how that's going to go down. So I'm going to argue that to some degree at least learning is a reflection of our information landscape. What's available to us, what we have and what we need to get done. So if we fly back 3,800 years, 3,800 a bit, this is a tablet from a school in Edjuba in Nippur in Mesopotamia. This is one of the better ones. There's some really great ones from the students and they're like one mark here. You can take a little wedge piece of stick and you put it in the clay. At this time, this is close enough to the first written language we have. You can make some arguments about some places in Central America. Give or take one of the first written languages we have. If you're in the Edjuba school, but you imagine it's 3,800 years ago, you've got a clay tablet on your lap. Yeah, a little stick. You need to know how to wedge out fish. In your opinion that you have, with a creativity process in this, you need to make a recognizable fish so that when you put fish on the tablet, somebody else knows it's fish. And we have thousands really of excellent lexicon lists that you were basically meant to call. You had to memorize those words and write them out to the point that they were legible. It totally makes sense that that's a teaching approach to these problems. That's level one inside the Edjuba. Level two in the Edjuba was the memorization of, depending on how you talk about it, 12 or 14 stories. One of those stories we were talking about is the Gilgamesh. And you had to actually write it out. So two layers of memorization, one of them is can I get the words right? And the other one is can I memorize the stories? And in that information we're asking, it totally makes sense. We've got to do that memorization. We take our time machine forward. Don't make me count. That many years. That's totally in the morning. Right? This is from an amazing extant advertisement that was up in Paris, trying to lure people to the University of Toulouse, where you are allowed to, and again the word here is here, the books of Aristotle which were forbidden at Paris. The books of Aristotle were forbidden were physics, because it talked about the beginning of the world in a way that God would not approve it. Now, the information infrastructure at this time, you were not putting your grimy little hands on that book, because we're talking about the death of like 200 sheep, to make one single book or sheep, right? And I mean, so there were some places that would let you catch the books, but mostly you couldn't. Mostly you were in a catechetical model. That word brings familiar for anybody. Catechetical. If you have any Christian upbringing inside of schools, you'll have heard the catechisms of the word, catechetical is call and repeat. So I call it out, you call it out, I call it out, you call it out, because that's the only way that you're taking Aristotle out of that classroom. You can't get the book. You can write a little snippet of it, but what you're trying to do is memorize. The technology infrastructure we had at the time was dead sheep. So we fly forward again. This is after the printing press. It's a couple hundred years after the printing press. Pestilotsi, my educational hero for Pestilotsi. Anybody, any Pestilotsi fans in the room? One of you. One. Pestilotsi, oh, that poor dude. He had so many fancastic ideas of how to build an education school. He'd build a school that would fall down and take it to the school. Build a school that would fall down and take it to the school. And then he had this idea that he wanted to teach the entire country of Switzerland how to read and how to do basic writing and read with it. And so he had this new take book. He would cut it down into little pieces. You might call it a textbook. And anybody, an uninstructed schoolmaster, or in this case, as the book that he wrote, Gertrude, could teach her children without understanding the content of the book. She'd just flip one page at a time to go through that process and be able to teach her kids without understanding the content. I just like a lot of our university classrooms. Only good when an uninstructed schoolmaster can use it all the time. And again, here we have a scarcity of teachers. You have scarcity of written texts. You have a scarcity of the books themselves. And we have a scarcity of the teachers involved in the process. So much of the history of education that we have is a question of scarcity. It used to be really, really hard. And this is actually, this is one of those books that they get. It's in that 200 cheap-stand phase. Really, really hard to come by, right? And a lot of our models are based on this. We left that behind. This is a shout-out to my buddy Aras. This is from something we did seven or eight years ago. Some of you were probably there. But now we've gone from that point of scarcity from that place of not having enough to a place of having too much. Anytime you're going out looking for information, you now have piles and piles instead of not a whole lot in that process. Those classrooms themselves are built to solve the problem of scarcity. We have only so many books. Let's bring everyone to the school, right? We only have perfect teachers. Let's bring them to the same place so we can put them together. And then all the things that come after that, the fact that a classroom is an hour long, the fact that all those structures that we build are all solutions for that problem of scarcity. And so many of the ways we run a classroom in the same. So there are ways in which a classroom is built to solve that. I'm going to ask my helpers to come along. We're going to try to know it. No, you don't call if I look behind you. Got you. At my... So one paper each, please. Sir. Welcome to class. We're having a test today. I'm not ready to get all the studies. I mean, I'll say that. I didn't get one. One of the most classroom students... I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was surprised. I was surprised. Okay. So as you received your papers, does anybody here ever made an airplane before? Don't get out of your private... You'll notice that some people are evanted, if you don't care about that, we're more thankful for the matter. If you have failed, if you have failed to make a paper airplane, you can just back up that. One, two, three, fire! Yeah, well fast and great. And the rest of you fail. I applied my archery of counting to you. I have given you a real, you guys did really well. Unreasonable challenge and an unreasonable timeline. And I get to measure success. It's how far the planes went. In this case, the two people who cheated have managed to pass the test well done. It's just old silent. All right. Now that I know it, she's not going to fail. All right, so I get to decide those things. And this classroom style stuff comes from Chee Glasser. Super interesting 1984 and onward. Okay. So yeah, I understand that not all classrooms are like this. There are lots of fantastic educators out there. But at the end of the day, the end of the day, we have this assessment that's built into the vast majority of what we do, no matter how creative and wonderful your classroom is, the vast majority of us end up in Blue Microsoft's corporate model of counting the learnings that you've had. You know how creative you are. At some point, you end up stuck here somewhere. And she began around it a little, but broadly speaking, this is where we are. Okay. This fantastic article. This fantastic article by Nathan S. Baker trusts the history of chess inside of education. I will not bore you today with my long rant about chess. But the point is, is that as soon as you have our corporate counting, we have a game and that game is something you can win. That's set me to co-op students work for me during the pandemic. So fantastic kids, but they're all students who had no interest in open education. We're really, really not. Right. So I had engineers and kinesiology students. I had computer science students. I was like, there's a little overlap at least. Business, right. And but their co-op terms all got canceled. Their co-op terms all got canceled because of the pandemic. So they came to work for me, right. But what it ended up being is I had this really cool relationship of students I've never met before. They're students that I was not grading in any way. So we had all of these conversations around the game of school became the sort of theme of the, I think I had seven different groups for four months over and over again, came back to the same thing. I don't go to school to learn. That's where I just play the game of school. Right. If I want to learn this thing, I go home and do it. I don't get involved in that process because I understand that in a classroom, the only thing I'm really there for is to give the teacher what they want. The end of the day, no matter how it gets matched up, no matter how creative that person is, no matter how interesting the class, the end of the day, they're judging me. My job is to figure out what they want and find a way to give it to them. So our Bonnie and I's kids, I can't imagine, you can imagine, just give them the tone you've heard so far with my four children, what do you like? So you have two kids, education researchers, you go to the public school system and we've had to set them down and have this chat. You were involved in a game. You can go find out if your teacher is somebody who actually wants to teach you a creative way, but that's not true. Figure out the game, figure out what they want. Ask the game, don't get emotionally invested. Every once in a while, you find a great teacher and that's fantastic. You can love that person. So don't let the rest of the touch your heart. So much of our system is like, this is the, I've heard me give this example before. I apologize if this one touched my heart. One of those 72 students, we were two weeks into the term and working for it. So again, not my student. And I asked him about something and he goes, just stop, you know, look at someone's face when they finally realize something? And he goes, I have to apologize to you. Nice to see you. And he goes, I just, you've been asking for my opinion this whole time for two weeks. And I just, I assumed you were lying because no adult has ever asked me a question without already knowing the answer. Right? And for me, with those 72 students, with students I've spoken two cents, with faculty from around the world that spoke your two cents, this is what we end up doing. This is what our system leads us to. Not only the belief that there's a right answer, but the belief that someone else knows that right answer, the job of learning is to find the person who could tell me what that right answer is. Now, I don't have to map out the different ways in which our culture has gone down pear shaped because of this. Right? So people look to people who are very loud, very noisy. Get their answers to question. Not nuance, not complexity, not the breadth of a question, but a very loud answer that they can take home and that allows them to feel like they got the answer, to feel like they've done the test right. This is how, but this is how we've aligned the education system that we had to. Information was really hard to come. Right? It was really hard to access. Get it. The simple fact is, people have gone. And when we're in a time of abundance of information, again, I don't necessarily mean abundance in a good way. Right? We got abundance of everything. We don't just get the abundance of the things we want. We don't get just an abundance. Seymour Papper talked about the knowledge machine. Right? It's a beautiful machine and a little girl could go to the machine and ask, does a giraffe sleep lying down? The knowledge machine would go, well, actually it's a funny one because it turns out the giraffes don't sleep both ways. So maybe we've got a really good knowledge machine that figures that out. But that's not the knowledge machine we've got. The knowledge machine we've got will sell you a giraffe piggy bank. It will tell you about giraffes. It'll probably show you some poaching about giraffes. It'll tell you all the things about giraffes and a whole bunch of lies about those poor giraffes at the same time. Right? So our knowledge machine has all the things. And all of that is inside of this abundance. But given that abundance, given the misinformation and disinformation and the good information that's all there, how do we go about finding that right answer? Right? So the claim that I would make is the move from information scarcity to information abundance fundamentally affects what and how we live. Okay? So we go from how can I find that one thing I need to do? How do we make sure we don't lose the knowledge of how to make a moldboard plow? The most glory instrument. Anybody know moldboard plowers? No moldboard plow at UTSS. It's a plow that turns the soil over, that in northern Europe allowed them to plant more wheat and double the size of the towns. Basically double the amount of crops you get. Fantastically important piece of thing. If you do a Google search now, it'll take you five seconds to figure out how to build one. But if they lost that piece of information, they were toast. Or not toast. So we have something that can help us with this abundance. No problem. Right? We can just go to chat, JVT. It answers questions. If you call that answering, it's trained on the internet partially, partially on writing. Not necessarily where all my answers come from, but it's generative. So I'm going to take it from somebody else. It takes all of that information and puts it together and what could be better. And frankly, I can't imagine a government mid-level bureaucrat right now who is not using it. Having been in that role as well, having somebody roll into your office and go, I want a report done in two hours, I'm going to do it. It's a need to report it done. Right? So this is how we're going to be handling abundance in an awful lot of hidden cases inside of our culture. It's terrible. We're auto-tuning. Right? So in 1997 shares, I believe, some of us call, was the first auto-tune song to make a kajillion dollars. Exactly a kajillion dollars. But it takes all that sound and it smooths it all out so everything sounds the same. Right? It takes all the nuance out of the process and makes it palatable, which is basically what our AI systems do now. Well, palatable. It makes it through our scarcity models of checking. So people are sending them into your new journals and it's making it through that process. But there's so many scary pieces underneath this. If you've not seen this, this is from OpenAI's actual research. This isn't even somebody else doing it. These are the biased word descriptions that went along inside of the, it's GBT-3, but these are the biased word descriptions. These are the words that slip into the creation of the text. Right? So for all those people who are talking about AI in their classrooms right now, this has to be part of the conversation. Right? These things are slipping into the process. We've got a means of production problem here too. If you're not familiar with Tim and Giver's work, I partly advise it. The DARREN Institute, which is based on the Earthquitter account, is going to cast it following that sign. But the means of production is problematic here too. So this work does not get done in a vacuum. It does not get done in some kind of sanitized way. But if we don't have another option, this is so easy. It's so easy to post what things we want. Clearly there are other options out there. I don't know where this example came to my mind. Might have been some time yesterday, sharing a conversation on a wide just one of mine. Well, we can go out and create prefab solutions. The problem with this prefab teaching solution is that it has a lot of baked-in assumptions as well. Right? So ChatGPT bakes them in. Well, I almost say randomly because it's not really randomly. And I'm not going to describe myself as understanding it well enough to know. But it's kind of in there because it's in the Internet and because nobody cares. In this case, you have other things baked in. This is from teachers pay teachers. We have strictly a K12 system. But this is such a fun example. When we're talking about entrepreneurs and social responsibility, this person's example was the great job that Mark Zuckerberger has done as a social responsibility person. This is from 2050 when he said he was going to give away 99% as well. We got that way. What the point is is that here again, when we create these secondary and tertiary items, and again, I'm not saying textbooks are a bad thing. A lot of places where open textbooks make full sense. We need to not throw more hard things on. What the secondary and tertiary pieces we make have all this stuff baked in. All these things baked in. So we can try open education instead. Thank you. But I think it was two days ago, said we all know what we mean by open practice in this room. But by open education, I would argue we probably don't. What do we mean by that? So we want open access and open publishing, widening participation, open education practice. This is great. We're replacing $300 textbooks in this classrooms. I don't care if that's a step in the process. I don't care. It's fantastic. Because the amount of money that kids are paying on textbooks, I mean, if it means that we are going to have textbooks and again, I understand what we're publishing for in textbooks. But if it means we're having textbooks that are written by humans, because I don't think we're two or three years away from all textbooks that are written by humans, with all of those biases we saw the formates in, though publishing part of this means that we have direct access to humans doing deep thinking work that we can bring to our classrooms. But I think that part of it is super important to this process. Widening participation is an expression for those of you who are from my side of the pond that we aren't as familiar with. So I will go ahead and explain it anyway for those of you who are as uneducated as I was. This is something we should all be doing all the time. This is about making more room for more people taking away different kinds of barriers and making our schools places that are open to everyone and not just as there's a door open and if you know how to get in, you can come in, but open in ways where we go out and help you get into school. This is obviously something we should do. This part of open education is a constant. Open educational practice. I was going to go ahead and talk about what I was doing in terms of this, but almost every definition I find is about, is directly connected to the widely definition of open educational practice, which is about using open educational resources. Again, the piece here that I'm interested in is high-quality open educational resources, because once we do this, we've already pre-filtered the content coming into our classrooms, and that's the piece that I think is really important. Because that abundance that we were talking about earlier does not contain a filter. We can use ChatGPT as a filter. It's a shitty filter, but it is a filter. We can use things like women's learning as a filter, not my favorite filter, but it's a filter. It allows you to get to, we can use really good high-quality resources, the filter, so that the content that comes into our classroom is already high-quality, having no relationship to the regular human experience that anybody has when they try to learn anything. The thing that I find most important in all of this is how does somebody who takes three science classes in university as part of their English degree learn how to evaluate science? How do they learn how to deal with the thing that they read on Facebook so that they make good decisions, so they become good voting citizens who can make good decisions? I don't even think that to make my decisions. That'd be profitable. But I don't need them to make the ones that are based on my values, I just need them to make decisions based on values. Any values, frankly. So, 2011, some guy, we need a pedagogical abundance. I agree with him. At some level we need to be thinking about this, and one of the intersections of this has to be about the abundance of content that we have. The abundance that every person who comes into our classrooms, when they leave our classroom and forget everything we said, and go back and try to relearn it, that they have the skills they need to relearn that based on whatever they're confronted with. Because it's not the thing that came out of our classroom, it's not the thing that was counted in our classroom that they take away, it's the skills that they pick up that allow them to succeed successful citizens have that abundance of inspiration, have that abundance of challenges. We have uncertainty. I figured it, so there are two kinds, right? There's uncertainty as in not currently known. I can't figure out whether I should do this, but there's basically a right or wrong answer. Mostly right, mostly wrong. We need to be able to solve this kind of uncertainty. The one that really interests me is the not fully knowable. We had a couple of people yesterday talking about wicked problems. Perfect example of that. Should I be using fossil fuels in my house? So many different questions that we have that don't have those clear answers that will never have an appearance. There's no right way of doing it. There's only the process that we go through. There's only the adaptations that we do, which when we ask the question, the problem kind of shifts on us, right? Two solutions to this kind of problem. One, you continue to work through it, use the skills you learn, and the other one is you find someone really going to tell you what to do, right? That second version is the way that we've created our education system. Someone has already answered. My job is to find the person who has the right answer and listen to me. So this is one of my favorite examples to use. You get deal with uncertainty, you're in a classroom, you're pulling up random content to get faced with one. It's the process by which we deny the content that I think is beneficial. So I ask you as a group, how's my man doing? I will say historically for that one dude going, he's doing great. Maybe he don't offer that thing, but I heard he's doing a lot. What can we do to help him? What's the advice you have for him? Move for loot? Maybe don't shove it in her face. There's no clear answer to this. There's no clear, we can tell, we know there's a problem, but it's the evaluation process and a decision involved with that process that matters. So I end up, and I leave you with three recommendations for a pedagogy of abundance. It's part of it. They're the ones that I have come to with this process. So end of random. Pretty. And an open education approach, whatever you call it, three pieces. The first one is we need to constantly, constantly demonstrate our, you know, the expression I don't know has to be the first one that comes out of our mouths all the time in our classroom. If we're taking up the random things that come across and then I do this way so I don't find an answer to this, post it up, we're going to talk about each of the ones you found. The first thing we always have to come back to is I don't know what that is. I've never seen that thing. I'm going to show you what I've been learning more about. This has to be the starting place. The idea that you've known already is the biggest problem with this whole process. It's not just you, but your students too. And it has to come, the idea of expertise, a discussion we had two days ago, an idea of expertise has to start with this word. Not, I know everything and I walk into my classroom already knowing all the things. All right, so that's the first piece I write. The second one is the model made me trust, right? So I go to this place to read this person for this reason and this person has become part of my community in this role, right? This kind of modeling is something that can break down the training of 12 years that our students have at least. 10,000 hours as an important part of learning that they've had before they've come into our classroom that teaches them that there is just the right answer. That's all you're looking to find, but rather that process of how we come about to know who we learn to trust, what we learn to trust and why we do it. And the last piece is we need to show those values that we have, I think, that allow us to choose not just the right answer, but the answer for the reasons that we think are important to us, right? And model that choosing in a way that shows that. So that humility, trust and values don't count. We're not going to measure those things, but they matter. But I think that at the end of the day we take that OER piece and bring it into our classrooms. We make that part of the way we come to know, right? We can share that new way of going about thinking knowledge that fits into the information you've constructed. Best. I'll just share a quick story. Oh, there you have it. Like that. I've been standing by at Roopney Best all the time. It's my annual sequence. We went into this workshop. Was it a 19th workshop, lady? It was a 19th workshop. Okay. We went into this workshop for some of the likes and designing booths. Dave and I sat down at the front, and then George stood up and said, right, Dave struck at this workshop, and that's the first day I've heard him like this. He walked out of the door and laughed. He didn't even stay. And it did not have a title. There was no title. The important thing is no leave this workshop. He walked out of the door. And to be fair, they sat up and ran at two hours. So, Dave's given the thing out. Maybe I still need to think about it a little bit more, but I didn't quite catch the leak from abundance of information, values, humility, and trust, and open education. To me, this is a disconnect there. Maybe you can help me see that. Sure. So, with open education has a lot of framing, right? So if you look at open education as the open license part of open education, and the framing I'm talking about is open. If you talk about open education as open to different content, open to the internet, open to whatever information comes in, open to the abundance of the internet, then you have a different series of skills you need to be able to filter. In a normal classroom, you come in having, say, in a normal classroom, again, I know about all of her teaching experience, but in a classroom, you come in having decided six months ago what the content is. Everything is pre-filtered and everything is pre-decided. So none of that process of evaluation ends up being part of the conversation. And that fit the experience the vast majority of people would have had 35 years ago when they went about learning something outside their classroom. So that represented what I think I'm doing a better job of explaining this to you. It represented the way that somebody would learn when they left your classroom. They would go to a library. They would go to a bookstore. They would find content that was also pre-packaged for them, and they would use the same approach. Now, no one is going to the library. Almost no one is going to the library. Librarians are wonderful places. I love libraries. Nobody is going for a library. That's where there's some questions. So the skill set that you need when you come into the classroom is not that, how do I use a pre-evaluated published textbook? It's how do I deal with the random content that comes in? And that skill set that I think you need includes humility, the application of values, and effective trust. Boom! Can we go back and say that as part of the conversation? Anybody else? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so abundancy leads to uncertainty. And scarcity saw certainty. Certainty is the defensive mechanism we need to use for scarcity, right, because we need to switch it up so that you can keep it in. Keeping it in that random sense. It needs to say things softly. You know what? Oh, shut up. So I was sort of thinking of Nietzsche, and God was dead, and then this is wrong. He needs Philip, and we are now staging masculine background for both. And I was also thinking in that abundance, what's kind of lost? Can you sort of mention this agricultural example? Yeah. And there's sort of like the reach of flowers from nature, and trees have kind of been lost and have abundance, maybe. So your thoughts on those sort of names? Um, that's one false comment. Yeah, totally. I think I'm going to let you continue on that. So I'm not sure how to respond to that. That's not going to happen. It's not. I don't know. Let me think about it. So yeah, I'm thinking about it. Anybody else? I think. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah. Also, librarians speak of the kinds of open nature. But not a teaching librarian. Do you think there is a place for, I mean, I know of librarians who do this, you know, helping people find their way in abundance. Yeah. Yeah, and we accept it that people don't come to the store anymore. But, you know, it's where would you place the role of the teaching skills of librarians? Literally it is. Yeah. No, I think the librarians who are making this adaptation, right? I know something people would probably know. Also, it's a fine number. It is, you know, library is about solving the information landscape that we're in, right? They're about navigating their information landscape and absolute who better to develop those. Again, I think it's obviously there are skills from scarcity that still apply. If there are new skills that need to come in, definitely. Yeah, I think we need people who are specifically working. Thank you. So I, it seemed like when you're talking about knowledge scarcity, at the beginning it had to do with access to materials. Like, do you have a rock we can scribble on or under lamps to make the book? And I'm thinking of some of the work of other colleagues, Indigenous knowledge and understandings. When I bring this home, how can I make sure I'm capturing understanding that not all knowledge was on sheepskin and rocks? A great point. Socrates, the pagerist, said that all this writing stuff was terrible because people were going to lose the wisdom that was involved in it. You were just going to be able to put it from recall and not because you actually wouldn't have understood it. You could actually actually do it. I mean, it's a, even in the Western tradition, certainly. I think when you look at Indigenous development, so in my, in my country, this has become a really big issue since the 94th or the 7th Civil War, terrible history deterrence. I have, I was fortunate enough to work with an elder of last year working on Indigenous Ways of Knowing Ego. There's a huge learning experience for me in terms of that. In terms of the ways in which story carries more than information, it carries knowledge, it carries wisdom, it carries experience, and the ways in which it changes by the different Indigenous peoples that are carrying that story. And also the ways in which the people I was working are like a different humility with which they approach to this project. I think there's ways of learning inside of all of that, but again, they're not just about information about the Ego piece. That humility piece is, is a big part of at least the Indigenous people that I was working with. I think that's, the more we can get involved in that, the more that we can find ways to learn from that, because I heard about that. It can be kind of a both-and even back then, but we didn't capture it. Okay. Totally, totally. Yeah, go ahead. Yes, it's a great follow-up from my, my, my lady and colleague. Would you have sympathy with the town information? Let's just see. It's often used to describe much of what we're talking about, which I think about as a soft applied discipline information, let's just see. Yeah. And I think it's a good connection possibly, if not know we are, through the channel of the discussion that people landscape to let on. Information, let us see things, let us see what we're always considering, for sure. Yeah, no information, let's just, data, let's just get phones. And again, I'm not, I would not try to define either of those. Anybody who is working in this direction, I'm happy with them. Whoever it belongs to, I'm okay with that too. In terms of the definitions, I certainly wouldn't be bald, but I'd say we're not, I think it's inside. It's outside, so you know. No, something go over here. No, no. Go ahead. Comments in the question. Is it more of a comment than a question on time? I appreciate your honesty. That intersection, the first person to ask the question, I'm sorry, I don't know your name, but that intersection between abundance, you know, the chest and values and open that space. I see a lot of work done by people in this room and people who are into the spirit and the work around critical social justice to open. So I see a lot of that work happening. So the definition of open educational practices that went on your slide, I think it was a slightly dated direction. What's the vote? The vote makes, not only in your context, but it's not the dominant one necessarily in Europe. Here's the part where it needs to go on a year. I was trying to find the definition that I could use it, actually have that out there. And is there one in York that I've ever thought about? Yeah, you're in South Africa. I mean, we'll talk. Because I'm more, no, no, I'm more than half, but I went looking for it and I'm like, oh, I can't call it. I can't find it. Because again, I'm not trying to adopt anybody else or co-op, anybody else's definitions. And I'm more than happy to use different ones. But yeah, for sure. But anyway, the point is not so much about the definition itself, but just that the evolving understanding, as I see it, of open educational practices, is about letting go and decoupling from who we are. It doesn't necessarily include who we are. It may include who we are. But it's about co-creating knowledge. The question is, the way you start the conversation about abundance, it's not necessarily where the conversations start when we start with open people or open. So just wanting to have a step back to start a conversation where you start with it today. Because that seems to some of them everybody has something to do rather than people saying, let's open again. So I think it could be generative to start a conversation in a different place. With abundance or with open? With abundance. Oh, yeah. When you start with this way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's exactly why. So I learned the term open education from Alec Gouro's. And I've used it in it. That being one of those words, we explore this in the Go-GN session, one of those words that I find lacks explanatory power. Right? Because it ends up being so conflicted, plus so many different ideas. The word that I discovered lacks explanatory power from two days ago was expert. Because people have so many different ideas of it that it doesn't get to where you need to get it as quickly. Whereas this abundance argument has been a really easy one. It's been a pathway for me to get into this conversation. Because for mine, so I teach, right? And I just finished teaching pre-service students so that in Canada, that's students who will be K-12 teachers. There's so much deep programming that needs to happen. Right? But they know what abundance is. Right? They have an intrinsic sense of it. It's human. Plus they don't have a pre-existing definition flow. So I can drop in there, set up that conversation without fighting back against all their preconceptions about what that is. I ran the open one today because of the audience. But mostly I don't use it anymore. I may say it, I make reference to it, I need it in my head, but I've stopped using it because I end up in arguments with people. I'm like, how terrible are the definitions? Right? I'm an uncertainty guy. Like, really, I don't care about the definitions. To me, they're just exercises and power. Right? I get the control of the definition. So I'm trying to get to the point. So yeah, I have had more. Because that's exactly why I'm using it. There's a bunch of people who will wind up. I'm going to go back there. I'm going to do a thing. Thank you for that. But thank you on a publication date. So wonderful analogy about auto-tune. It's really great. Like, because I think we're always trying to maximize or minimize, we're maximization of minimization machines. We're trying to, like, we, you know, maximize or minimize something. And so that's, it's brilliant because we get so focused on something. But the provocation, yeah, is, I believe in life after love is an epic song. I think it's something basic. Look, I am not going to stand here and criticize you. No way. I do not deserve that. I am not worthy of that conversation. It's all well taken. Very much. That's the presentation. I think, like, being down from, I'm sort of, I think I'm following all of the steps necessarily of your argument, but I appreciate there's a booklet version which probably, you know, takes a while. So my question is really about, about your kind of recommendations, demonstrate the abilities, on all the way to show how it is with our values. And just sort of the language around that, because you've sort of given this kind of, essentially a sort of critique of pedagogical authority, in some of this stuff, the right answer and so on. Then when you frame your kind of recommendations, almost repeats a sort of authority model. Demonstrate your humility to your students, to your learners, model the way we trust to your learners. Show how we choose to your learners. And I don't know if that's a conscious thing or if it's just because you're speaking to the educators and it's inevitable that there is this sort of relationship there, but if it is inevitable there's that kind of power relationship there, how does your critique of that authority sort of cohere with that? I have no problem with mentors though. I think it makes total sense and I think the pedagogical models that support clear learning objectives, this sort of John Hattie to those of you who are familiar approached to education, had no problem criticizing that and maintaining the partnership as a really important part of the process. I don't think that there are a dozen people in this room who've been mentors to me and have demonstrated the way that they work and are happy for that mentor here. I don't think that's a problem for the thing that students are happy for. That's right. Oh yeah. I really find this very inspiring and you told me that you were doing my own practice over there. That's great. Well I have a question. That comes up with this about, so Michael, is it both that other people will actually communicate to me don't convey that to us people. When I talk with friends who teach engineering or hard science things, ah, when I talk about this, they said, but yeah, you work in humanities, language, you know, all these things are quite, you know, you can start the journey from different places and you know, having this uncertainty and this basically is part of the learning objectives. So very well, but I have to train people and educate people about that so that the plane, you know, the plane that we threw that it doesn't crash, and actually respect over the road about the environment, et cetera, et cetera. So how do you reverse to get all these riskors and these ideas? Yes, we do. Please, Michael. Please, Michael. Please, Michael. Please, Michael. Please, Michael. Please, Michael. Yeah. With people who haven't teach in all the platforms, which is probably, I'm not very good at this. Will you take architecture as an instance? Okay, but yeah. Think about the building not the building. Okay. So I was at T. Delft last year. We're at a conference and there they're coming to grips with the idea that architecture, architects in the future will no longer be using new materials inside of the Netherlands because they can't conscience using the name of the book. They kept talking about cobalt running out of 23 months. Apparently this is a terrible thing that's happening to all of us. They're running out of cobalt. It's important for reasons. I don't understand about it. But apparently it's that way. So they're looking at not building new buildings, not using new materials, but being architects. Right. And so now they're being struck with all of these other issues that are not true and false questions, but involve all these certain concerns that's becoming a part of the ladder they're working in. It's true of all for them. Always be true of all the questions. Right. So making the paper airplane, there are turns out a bunch of different ways to make a paper airplane. Anyways around making a paper airplane, but this is such a small part of the design process. Figuring out how to get your funding from the person who's going to help you design, like allow you to design your plane. It's actually way more about the engineering process. And that is a subtle sort of a, and that I think is the argument today that making sure there are facts in the world I'm not suggesting that there are there are definitely processes that people need to do. I do not want my plane falling out of the sky. And frankly, I don't want the person on the assembly line who's putting the plane together get all creative about where they're going. It's not that everything is like there are definitely things that I think in every field there are things like that. Sadly, we still make people use citation, like APA citation might be the same kind of form and format sort of thing that's great and terrible for any people with childs. But we still do it. We have those in every field, I think. Are there more in engineering? Maybe. But when I had 35 engineering students were for me, you know what they couldn't do? Deal with any kind of uncertainty. Even if there was a right answer, they couldn't do it either. So I have so many great arguments for them to do as well. So, I was interested to hear, so have you not in an age of abundance of definition as you turn to the easy one, the students, if you'd confidence learning from feminine pedagogies, theory, and perhaps my journey in philosophy started there, which is feminist theory. That was the thing that opened my eyes the first time. I try, certainly don't represent it because it's not my place to speak for it, but it's certainly been something that I try to incorporate in philosophy. So, what theories did you use? In this? No, in the journey. Oh, that was 30 years ago. Oh, yeah. That's great. So, we should talk later. There's some great stuff coming out recently which references all the other stuff. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Have a lot of fun. Have a good night. Thanks. Thank you very much. Have a good one. Thank you.