 A couple of hundred million in any given year is neither here nor there. On your own numbers you need to borrow $2 billion more than national over the first two terms of government by 2018. Well let's see this in perspective on that. Are you denying that? No at all. There is a slightly different shade of GDP. A couple of hundred million in any given year is neither here nor there. What's your definition of a small business? Well the details of that will be a matter for the expert tax panel that we're setting up to decide. The detail of that will have to be worked out by the expert panel. The definition will be left to the expert tax panel to finalise. I'm saying that our model is very, very tight. I'm talking about your model. I'm talking about your future spending. Yeah and you're asking me effectively You're asking me effectively If we save that paper rental leave, what about the new spending? Well I think you'll find that there's a very, very low spend, new spend there. As I say, only 9% of the total over time goes into the next budget. About how much per budget? 1.1 billion national scrap that, but what's your operating? We've got four more months to go to the election and we'll be announcing our spending initiatives as they come through. Do you have a freeze on spending or not? We've said that we will take on the government's budget lines as we have done in these budget projections. You will carry on what they do now, which is an effective freeze? No, I haven't said that. Will you put back a setting of you spending on or not? We will be fiscally responsive. What does that mean? What does that mean? What does that mean? So you will start spending more money? No, I haven't said that. I've said that we'll have a ceiling on expenditure. No, no, but you will reintroduce a new ceiling. We will have a limit on our spending, a ceiling if you like, yes, but I'm not announcing that today. If you don't win the next election, will the capital gains tax be labours policy going forward into the 2014 election? I personally would certainly support that to be the case, but that's up to a future party. I'd be 99% certain that it would be. Well, why can't it be 100% certain? Because if this is such a great long-term policy, you've now weighted yourself on this, haven't you? I'm not 100% in control, none of us are.