 It's the mat work. What's up everybody? Once again, it's Brandon Shawn and I'm back with another link up and today I am linking up with MJ. He is currently West Coast Promotions coordinator at Def Jam recording classic record label and hip hop in particular. If you don't know, man, you got to do your research, but this guy like so many people has a story and an interesting interesting perspective because it's something we can always learn from everybody and just a few things I've learned about you so far. It has my mind reeling. It has my mind reeling. So before I even get to my very first question, I just want to say first and foremost, appreciate you hopping on man, linking up with me. And yeah, man, thanks for showing up in a time like this with Corona and most definitely man. So let's start here. Right. Yeah. Promotions, you know, coordinator at Def Jam. There's a lot we can really talk about about some of the inner workings just in a label system in general and what the coordinator really looks like. But you said earlier that you've been in this thing since you were 17. All right. It was music specifically since 17. Yeah, I will see. Like I said, it was music ever since I was like, it's 17 years old. I knew I wanted to be in music business, you know, because I grew up in an era where, you know, P Diddy, Dame Bash, all those guys were just super inspiring to me. So it's 17 years old. You like, that's when you kind of figure out what you want to do in life. That was around that time. I was like, y'all, I want to be in business. Okay, got you. So you went straight to business. You didn't try none of that artist stuff you just straight up. I did. I mean, just as any 13 or 14 year old kid, I mean, you know, you try to throw your hand into rapping. I wasn't that good. But you know, I'm saying, I tried it out for a little bit, but it wasn't nothing serious. And I had a passion for music. So when I was 17 years old, I watched like this documentary on YouTube about like Rockfella and stuff like that. And I was like intrigued by like, Dame and Biggs and like just the business side of it. And at that point, I was like, yo, like, maybe, you know, be behind the scenes rather than in front of the scene. That's real. That's real. Well, hey, it's dope that you set off on that path so early, man, because yeah, a lot of people learn hard lessons and can't admit that they weren't that great of an artist, you know, man. It was garbage. And this is how I knew it was garbage. You can see at 17, this is right when came to the Marrhead came out. This is right when we were still like in the, like, OJ the Juice Man while I flogger era. So like, you would think, oh, I can do that. And, you know, Kendrick came out of nowhere with section 80. And that was like one of the albums that like changed my life. And I was like, that's when I realized it. Like, you know, this dude is the greatest. He never did it. And I'm terrible. And that's why I'm talking about it. I can't do this. That's crazy. When you when you say it like that is I wonder how many rappers careers Kendrick been killed, like just prematurely. He was, I didn't grow up. I grew up in the J and Nas era. I knew of them. But they weren't like artists that I was like really into into later. Like Kendrick, I was there from day one. And like this dude is early 20s out the gate. You know, at that time, he was better than J and Nas and mine. So this dude was just ill is like, I was just like, yo, this dude is some serious. You know what, let's try something else. All right. So what was your first like parlay into music? When you when you felt like, all right, I'm in this thing, no matter how deep or what or how successful, but you know, I was in you felt like you were just in it. When I was in it. I was say when I was an intern at Atlantic in 2017. And I was volunteering for this Grammy party. And I saw that I was volunteering and like all of these like executives and like millionaires, just like just walking around eating up birds and drinking champagne. And I'm like, yo, this is the oldest thing I've ever seen. And so you remember one of six and part? Yeah, of course, man. Come on out. AJ, AJ for one of six and part at the event. And he like shook my hand. And at that moment, that's when I knew I was like in the business to a degree. Yo, this is the guy that I watched growing up. So it was like, I knew like, all right, I'm in the right direction. That's what's up. That's what's up. Okay. So this had to be post locks. He had everything he was he was done. This is like 2017. So he was like, well, on to in a whole different life at this point in time. All right, cool. Yeah, I definitely know that feeling when you talk about being people that you watched. And it's a whole another different feeling you on, even if you desire is almost like you don't expect to be on that side of things. The seeds people that you grew up watching and analyzing to certain degree and you seeing them in like in the flesh, because I'm from Arkansas. So I was like, from Arkansas to Los Angeles is a huge difference in their style. So you know, the projects and everything. So just being in LA and seeing celebrities and just seeing the lifestyle and AJ was like the first celebrity that I saw and shook my hand. That's when I knew like, yeah, I'm in the, I'm going in the right direction. Man, man. So yeah, that has to be a black black and white just an eye open experience gone from Arkansas just to tell I've never been to Arkansas, Arkansas, but my grandma's from Little Rock and always say, what is that? Oh, that that. Yeah, but you know, the stories I've heard and just understand the climate over there. Yeah, you know, it's a world of difference to even go from Atlanta to LA, but going from Arkansas to LA, what was, what was that like outside of just the celebrities and things like that word? Like even the small things that you really kind of like notice like, yo, this is different out here. Well, you gotta, well, you gotta look at it from a point of view like when graduated in 2016 and when I graduated, I kind of had like an epiphany to like really go for it. And I drove from Arkansas to LA. Like I literally picked up everything in my OAP Rio and drove, you know, things like 1200 miles from Arkansas to LA. And just was like, I'm gonna figure it out. Hey, bro, that's not a big car. I had that car, bro. Yeah, it's all here. Yo, yo. And I'm tall. So it's like, yo, I had one container in the Rio and I literally drove. It's like, like an emoji car. And I drove from Arkansas to LA, bro. And when I got to LA, man, and I saw palm trees and I finally made it because it was three day drive. And I drove down and I had nothing but like $500 in my pocket. I spent like 300 getting there, gas, hotel, food, you know, I wasn't good with money at that time. And I got out here and it was like the palm trees and it was just when I landed in LA, I was just like, yo, no matter what, the fact that I tried means everything to me. Like no matter what happens, if this doesn't work, at least I know I tried. But the biggest eye opener to me was just, you know, the lights and just seeing people look happy. Like people just looked happy. Like you would see like, you know, the Instagram models with the Starbucks cups, the bags, the clothes shirts and, and you know, wearing the shoes with no socks. I was like, yo, this is, this is though, like everyone looked happy. And I wanted to be happy. That was my thing. I wanted to be like them. I just wanted to be happy. Hey, man. Look, it looked like you had sound like you achieved it, man. When I, when I look at you, man, you know, you got that energy about you. I know you've had to be like, been told that a few times, you definitely got an energy about yourself, man. You got to be, you got to be a killer networker, man. Yeah, man, you know, I always try to, man, because you just never know. This is a, we're in the industry where you have to network. And you know, I'm always been a people person, you know, people person because the end of the day, I feel like we are all in this together, you know, and especially right now, we are all in this together. Yes. Yeah, for sure. So, you know, it's been one of the, I guess one of the talents that I had just grown up, just being able to, you know, be friends and people and just network. And one of the things that is how I got to this point was all through network because I didn't know NLA. You know, I'm from Arkansas. I didn't know NLA. NLA didn't know a soul. Not a, not no one. And, you know, in every event, you know, all the free events they had, whatever it was, I would just pop up, introduce myself, you know, my name being Michael Jackson was the best icebreaker ever. So, you know, it wasn't that hard, you know, you crack the smile, I got you. Yeah, yeah. It was just through networking and just meeting people at every stop and just expressing that I wanted to be in the business and meeting one person, introducing me to the next person, you know, that's how I kind of got to this point. Got you. Got you. So, you, um, like obviously you did a few internships. What's your respectable internships in music? Because I hear a lot of people, you know, it's a different day and age and people sometimes don't talk about not wanting to do internships in music. Some people say the way they've gotten treated, I know there's various experiences, but what's your insight and experience with internships and music? I feel like internships are, it's, it's kind of like, I put it to you like this, I believe in, and you do. And I believe in proving that you, that you want, right? So, like, I'm a part of a fraternity, right? I'm, I'm a half of, you know what I'm saying? So, I play, so I came into the mentality of someone that had pledged was the worst thing ever I had ever been through to be like, oh, this is nothing. Like, you want me to go get coffee? That's nothing. You want me to, you know, go print something? Oh, this is nothing. And I always believe that, you know, that's how you separate internships to me or how you separate the people who really want it and the people that kind of want it. I feel like that is, you know, because at the end of the day, it, to me, I was in it because I love music, hip hop, to be specific, but I was in it because this is what I want to do with my life, not because I wanted to hang out with artists or just be having to go extra long. It's like, no, I really want to be a part of this. Right? So, me personally, I believe that internships are a great indicator to kind of see like, okay, if we hire this person, they're going to give it 110 nonstop every day. And as an intern, that's what I did. Like, you know, I had, I want to say I had a total of four internships, you know, up until the end of my first job in the middle room, it was a first job. So, you know, every internship I learned something new, but every internship I was able to just, you know, be able to really hone in on the fact of just crying, like pure crying, like first one in, last person to leave type of crying, like no matter what MJ is going to do it. You know, I have that mentality to me right now, like no matter what, I do it. You know what I'm saying? And I had these crazy tasks, but I did it. I made it happen. What's the craziest task that you can think of off top? As an intern or just as an assistant. Which everyone's worse. I have so many, bro. Um, let me see the craziest task I think I would have to do. Off top, this is the top of my head. I think back to last year, it was my first year at Dev Jam. And we was throwing this, this event, we had signed all these new artists. And we was doing like a Grammy week showcase for these artists, right? And we had like all these boxes of merch and we had this huge, like Dev Jam tone on and like alcohol. We had a lot of things that need to be transported from the office to the venue. Well, people were putting it together and never thought about how this was going to get from the office to the venue. So freaking out like, yo, like, can you put this like, no, it's not gonna fit no one's part of stuff. It's huge. So within the 11th hour, I said, yo, we just being crunching from the side. I'm gonna go get a U-Haul truck. So I go get a U-Haul truck, put everything in the U-Haul truck and drive on the highway on the full five and traffic with boxes of merch, alcohol to this venue, right? Yeah. I was just like, yo, like, this is the car. I'm literally driving a U-Haul truck. But this is the crazy thing. I was like, yo, and that was like one of the things that sometimes you just got to do to get the job done and separate you. Yeah. I said, and that's the part of what separated you just small, just thinking small things that get it done like that. Yeah, exactly. Because we couldn't find a moving truck in time. It wouldn't fit in the car. I was like, yo, and I was like, yo, who's going to drive a U-Haul truck? And I volunteered to drive a U-Haul truck. Like you got to think that U-Haul trucks are kind of huge. Especially in LA. Yeah. And I was just like, yo, I don't even know how to. Like you got to be a certain type of driver to drive any type of truck. You're driving one of those big U-Hauls. Yeah, keep in mind, I've been driving a Kia Rio for like two years. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. For U-Haul, yeah. That was a huge jump. Yeah. But I did, I did what I had to do and I did what had to be done. And another, I got another great story too. So you know how Puff has this, this, this story about the cheesecake? It's like this, this infamous story about the cheesecake, right? So that same weekend, maybe like the night before we had an artist whose birthday was at night and they wanted to get her an ice cream cake and not a bucket of night, right? Yeah. Most stores are closed. And so like, I'm running around a Hollywood ice cream cake, right? So when you drive in Hollywood, like parking is the toughest thing to find, right? So I literally parked across the 101 freeway and run across the freeway just so I can go get ice cream cake and then run back without getting hit by an ice cream cake. The girl was happy that she got the cake. It was just one of those things that like in this business, you know, and the story sounds super crazy. Like when I tell you stories, it sounds super crazy, but at that point in time and still now I was willing to do whatever it is to get the task done. I feel you. I feel you. Man, I mean, that's the part of it. Like the fact that you were, like when you mentioned being in the mailroom, whenever I hear mailroom, man, like for one, it surprises me that those still exist sometimes because I don't even like going to my mailbox. Like for real, like to a flaw. But that's a whole other story. But like the fact that you did that right then next thing you know, you're at Def Jam. When you were at Def Jam, did you start as the promotion coordinator or were you something else before? I was in the mailroom for the Grammys, the recording got me. So I was in the mailroom there for like six months. And then from there, I moved into the coordinator position, which is like, what I joke about the time is that even though I'm titled as a coordinator, I'm really like three roles in one coordinator, the executive assistant to two executive best president. So I literally have like three roles in one. Okay. But that is the coordinator to kind of just make it sound good. So what is, yeah, what does that really, really look like on a day to day? You know what I mean? For people who for your role and just similar roles like that. And when we think about promotions, you talk to the partner, just the role itself. Actually, let's let's talk department. Like what is the late today? What does it look like for a promotions department at a label? All right. So a promotions department. So basically, a promotions department's main job is to get your song on the radio. That is, you know, and you know, you might think, oh, like regular side of the radio still plays a huge part in our success, right? So like when you look at those billboard numbers, I got a billboard number one, radio still plays a percentage and an artist getting the number one on billboard, right? And the delays of like number, you still have top 40 radio, you have rhythm radio, you have urban radio, right? And so like the main job of a label is to basically build the promotions department. It's to basically build the relationships with the program directors and the DJs to get your song played as many times as they can in a week. So, you know, when those songs are added and if the DJs are playing it, the goal is that consumers will hear the music, shazam the music and then stream the music, you know, and that's pretty much our ultimate goal. And, you know, it's basically kind of the thing where, you know, we are our department mainly such as the community, right? And that's the thing about our department. We'll go do like a lifestyle event. We might do a listening, listening party. So when those events are mostly here by the promotions department, you know, we might go do a showcase in the neighborhood or the artist might, you know, saying come to the radio station and do an interview. You know, we're the ones that coordinate that. You know, if we have if the artist is on tour, you know, and people want to go to the tour, we work with radio to give out free tickets or we go, we go do go on site to the meet and greets and stuff like that. So basically it's kind of like a liaison for the artist and the community as a whole. Got you. Okay. Okay. So when you talk about radio, by the way, and all of those factors when it comes to your rankings on these charts, is radio the most heavily weighted out of those still? No, when it comes to this point, streaming is the most this way, but radio plays. I want to say I have to look on billboard. I want to say it's about 15 to 20%. It's not as weighted because it's kind of like you have radio, you have streaming. And that's another factor on there as well, with the billboard where they're always like good boy has some type of formula that calculates radio sales. I think they still do like actual unit sales and streaming and then they combine it and then that's how you go on the billboard 100. You know, like right now, Drake's, Tussi wrote that Tussi wrote. Tussi slide. Tussi slide is like the number one on billboard and it's getting like heavy radio play right now, right? So all of that is weighed in to get him that number one slot that he has right now. Got you. Got you. That's interesting. Like, so what is your measure of success or the department's measure of success at radio? How can you determine? Yeah, I mean, so the department itself major goal is to get the song. So radio itself has their own chart as well. So sometimes you can Google and say like, you can go on billboard, they have a section where it's like the rhythm chart or the urban chart or the top 40 chart. So the promotion's goal itself is to get a song all the way up to chart as much as they can. You know, ultimately, we want to get a number one, right? So that's the ultimate goal is to get a number of the rhythm chart or the top 40 chart. And basically what that does is just another accolade for the artist. You know, the artist, I got a number one on rhythm or I got a number one on urban radio, which basically means this is the number one song played across all urban rail stations, all rhythm rail stations in the world. So the ultimate goal basically is to get a song all the way up. And for the labels, it's just a market share. So at the end of the year or quarterly, you might see the billboard might publish a chart like Universal has this much market share, Warner has this much, Sony has this much. Radio plays a part in that and making sure like if you try a certain position, when they look at how well all the music that was released from that label, they'll say, Oh, Dev Jam had these many songs to chart in the top 10 or the top five. So they have this much of the market share as a whole. Gotcha. Gotcha. All the labels are buying from market share at the end of the day. Yes, especially like I said, the end of the goal, every label is fighting for market share because at the end of the day, it all equates back to the line, right, which is the consumers listening to the music and buying the music. And basically all you're saying, which turns into revenue at the end of the day, it's still a business and they want to make money, right? So you invest your money into radio. So the song is played more, people will hit the song more, DJs will play the song more, people will stream it or buy it or go to the concerts or whatever the kids may be, which all equates back to the bottom line. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. Where are you with things in terms of the trajectory of your career? And I know you might not necessarily be done with this role, but considering now being in music, because music is one of those places where there's so many different things to do, it's really hard to know exactly what you want to do coming in sometimes. So after you've learned and seen quite a few things, do you feel like you have a good feeling on what you actually want to do next? But I would love to do next, it was probably not going to happen. I would love to be president, it's not going to happen. But you know, that's just the ultimate goal for myself is, I mean, I think for any young music executive or any young person in the music, you know, I'm a competitor. So at the end of the day, I want to be in that number one role. You know what I'm saying? So for me, the ultimate goal to myself is to become president of jam at some point. But like I said, what's next, you know, it's corporate at the end of the day, and corporate has its own structure. You know, from a coordinator, I go into a manager role. And from a manager, you go into a director and then senior director, then vice president, then senior vice president, then executive vice president. And at that point in time, that's where you kind of reach a ceiling in an apartment is the executive vice president. Then after you become that, depending on what you do next, if you're lucky enough, you can be the executive vice president of the label, you might be the executive vice president, you might be the vice president of the label. And you know, it's the president or general manager have the, you know, infrastructure laid out. Gotcha. Gotcha. So being somebody who's in that side of the system, how do you view the other side, right? The more independent side when we talk about the artists being, you know, independent and not getting signed by labels and that whole perspective against that. And even a lot of executive types that aren't at a label, right? Just feel like the young business professionals in music, but they're kind of finding their own different ways and navigating. How do you view that side and what makes you choose the side that you've chosen? Yeah, I mean, as far as the artists, I always say, you know, at the end of the day, you still need a team. So whether you have a label or not, you still need a team in order to success through culture, music, promotion, music, et cetera, et cetera. But the ending line is not for everyone, you know what I'm saying? Because at the end of the day, I feel like, to me, honestly, I think the ending line is best for artists who've already built a following and are already like, you know, able to make money on their own without a label. So, you know, if you're a veteran, like if you're a rapper, like they came out in the 90s, or whatever the case may be, and you had your success, you should be signed to a label in 2020. You know what I'm saying? You have your catalog, you can go do your shows, can't do them now. But once you're over it, you go back to doing your shows, selling your merch, et cetera, you don't need a label because you already built a brand up to be what it is. For indie artists, you know, it's kind of like you're playing, I feel like nowadays with a lot of indie artists, you're playing a game of luck. Like, you know, artists that kind of pop off when they're like, Lil Nas X is like once in a lifetime. That's luck. You know what I'm saying? That is pure luck. Great record. Don't get it wrong. It's a great record. It's pure luck. You know what I'm saying? And everyone can't do what Lil Nas X did. You know what I'm saying? It's rare that our artists will pop off with one and sometimes, you know, you have, and he eventually signed to a label, you know, after he had already popped, you know what I'm saying? So you have some artists who are able to do them by themselves and be able to have that success and maintain that success. But if you have some artists who want to take it to the next level, you know, what, you know, Lil Nas X signed to Columbia Records, it took it to the next level. You know, I put Billy Ray Cyrus on it. He went diamond. He won the Grammys. Like, he did all of that due to the label's help. You know what I'm saying? So I feel like if any game works, and it all depends on what artist want out of their career, you know, you have some artists who don't care about winning awards, don't care about, you know, all the video press and going on Jimmy Fallon and all of that stuff, all the things that a label provides because basically the label has the relationships, you know, the relationships with Spotify and Apple and all of the new news press variety and everything like that, where indie artists may not have that. So if you're an artist, say like, you know, who never really cared about having the labels pushed, right? Do you want to make my music? I want to tour, make money. That's totally fine. The big about the next question about executives. I often think it depends on the person and where they're coming from. Like, if I was a person, if I grew up in Atlanta, if I grew up in Los Angeles, if I grew up in New York in a major city where things were popping up, then, yeah, of course, why not do the indie role, right? Because you are in a big enough market to where you can do that. I'm from Arkansas. So, you know, and I'm down there. So it wasn't, I didn't really have the resources to pretty much do the indie role as an executive, you know, because I grew up, you know, I'm a young kid, I'm from the projects, didn't come for money. So at that point in time, I'm just trying to make enough to feed myself, you know? So for me, I felt like the best route for me was to go to corporate route. And so I'm able to, you know, barn up the brand, build the relationships, have the success. And if I choose to, then I can go to indie route. You know? So I think it not really depends on the person itself, but like I chose the more corporate structure mainly because I felt like just being where I was from and having the disadvantage, getting in a corporate system, building relationships, you know, it would allow me to have the choice to do the indie route or stay corporate if I choose to. Right. But that's pretty much why. All right. It makes sense that you always have to understand where you are. I mean, what position is going to get you to where you need to be. So that makes sense. That makes sense. Being a label, like you said, the relationships just naturally happen versus you having to hustle one by one. Now you're just around it all at all times. And we all know it's a very, it's a cliche, but it's a very, very small industry. Everyone really knows everyone. You know what I'm saying? You go to an event, you see the same people. And it's always, you know, I hear people always say like, people always try to network up. Now I need to know who the CVP is, the EVP like, no, really it's never working across. Like group chats full of assistants and coordinators. We all know each other. We are our relationships. We all hang out. You know what I'm saying? Me and the interns are cool. Me and me and the next guy who's coming up behind me are cool. You know, so I always say like, to me, it's always best to kind of just not just network up, but network across and build those relationships. Because in five years, 10 years, you're all going to be the new CVPs. You're all going to be the new EVPs. And then you have pool, you know, because in today, everyone wants to have some type of power in decision making. You know what I'm saying? So I see always, I really, really like, I'm like, yo, I'm in a position where I can sign this artist, then I can do so. You know what I'm saying? And it's like, I have a homie that might want to be in the business and I can make a phone call to give them an internship or give them an assistant role. I'm able to do that because I have good relationships coming up, you know, so yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. It's a long game. Long game. Yeah. And I got to ask it while you're here because we kind of talked about both sides, but again, there's, there's this whole idea of you don't need labels or labels or evil, you know, artist shot, you know, have all this reasoning for not getting signed, right? What do you say to that being somebody who's in that side of things? Hmm. I mean, I would say this, you do not need a label, right? Nowadays with the internet, you, you have the option to put your music out. You have the option to promote your music. Everything that a label was so valuable for, you know, everyone has access to do it themselves. Right. However, I would say this, a lot of people who downplay a label, well, it depends on where they come from. A day of someone that's trying to get noticed and they're downplaying a label is mainly because no one signed. That's pretty much, that's one reason. Another reason why if you are an artist and you're downplaying a label, especially just the indicator that you get bad business, you know, you sign, you sign a contract that you didn't get looked over, you didn't read, you didn't have a lawyer look over, you didn't even have a lawyer. Like you basically get bad business at the end of the day, right? Because I mean, at the end of the day, a label's job is to, it's a business, you know, in business, your goal is to make money. You know what I'm saying? And as an artist, you have to figure out and negotiate a way that you can kind of come in like a mutual partnership with the company versus being someone that's in debt with the company because you got your advance and you blew it on foreign cars and you didn't think about saving it or investing it into other things. One of the biggest misconceptions that you hear a lot on labels, and it's something that I've learned over time. You know, artists are always like, you know, I'm all my masters. Like, you know, you hear people talk about, yo, you got to own your masters, own your masters, right? Here's the thing, right? If a label is going to spend one to two million dollars upfront for you to record your album, put the album out, pay team, et cetera, et cetera, they have to have something, they're paying for something, right? The master recording, you know, is an asset over time, right? It's your catalog, right? And especially now when streaming is an all-time high, the catalog really kind of makes more money than the music that comes out, you know? So that's why you always hear about Beatles catalog or Stone's catalog, Michael Jackson's catalog, no pun intended. Just all the catalogs that are super, super valuable and they're worth millions of dollars now, right? So you want all your masters if you can, but at the same time, you've got to realize the label didn't put millions of dollars into recording this project. The project belongs to the label, you know what I'm saying? Now if you were to put your all money up and do a distribution deal, which a lot of people do, and it's a different conversation you can have, right? You know, like everything, the infamous cash money deal, I think it was 85, 15 split, you know what I'm saying? Birdman negotiated that. You ain't never heard Birdman downplan the label. Birdman got money money. You ain't never heard Birdman downplan the label because he got what he wanted. It's all about how you negotiate, man. At the end of the day, one of the things I will say, and this is just me just overseeing things over time, right? A lot of the kids that get signed, you know, a lot of artists come from like poverty-stricken environments, well, they don't know nothing. They don't know much, right? And you're a new artist, someone's waving around a million dollar check. Like, yo, you signed right now. You walk out here with a million dollars. You don't technically walk out with a million covers, everything else. But it's like, yo, I'm gonna get me not a check. You come from the projects, you know what I'm saying? You go back to the like, in your mind, you're like, yo, I'm from the scientist piece of paper. It is a million dollar check and gone about my life. You're not thinking about the long game, right? Labels do take advantage of that, right? That's why I think it's very important for people like me, you, other people coming into the music business to be in those positions where we can look out for the younger artists that's coming up because at the end of the day, I don't know how artists don't know any better. And it's not until over time when the money dried up, when you're not hot no more, that's the reality. All the young artists popping right now ain't gonna be hot after a while, right? After this, right now, for my half of them? Actually after this. Listen, you was able to do your shows, you had that single that was popping, you was able to do your shows, et cetera, et cetera. COVID-19 didn't happen, animal shows big, no, no, no. So now, if you ain't getting maraudes, you ain't, you sitting up in that house with that pool and you know that, that mortgages do and them folk car cars you got in the garage just do, you know, three baby mommas is asking where that money at. But this is the thing, hip hop, that's the thing, hip hop has always been like that. You know what I'm saying? Every, you're not going to be hot forever. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like every artist, like Jay-Z wants in a lifetime, Drake wants in a lifetime. You know what I'm saying? Because that's how I was going to be half-evil. Who would ever have thought Nelly was going to fall off? Like Nelly was my generation's Drake. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, like literally, for real, for real. Yeah, and Nelly makes more business investments. So because when those singles, when those shows start to slow up, it's like y'all got money in other different places. So I just think like for new artists, you have to do great business. You know, you have to think high, 10, 20 years from now, because people are not going to come to these shows, you know, and you're not going to be able to make as much money as you make it now, unless you invest for, you know, Dick Ho talking about the young boy. What's the guy, the light-skinned guy, Gucci Yang? What's the guy name? Lil Pump. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you've seen what's happening on him on social media, but that boy's falling off home. No, I actually haven't. The boy paying his nails and everything. He's going through, going through this COVID-19. I just remember looking at him the last time I saw him, which probably, I mean, had to be sometime this year. It was just crazy because you can tell that he went through an extra phase of puberty. I was just like, yo, this dude looks like, like more like a man now, which, you know, and sometimes those little names don't translate as well, like with that character that you come in and now you look like a grown dude, beard starting to come in and stuff. Man, it's Lil Zane. Nope, don't worry about it. Lil Zane, man. I haven't heard that name in a minute. Hey, man, you know, it happens, man. Evolution, man. You know, this, like I said, you know, every artist has their time. You know, I really, it's a three-year limit, 35 if you like it, but really a three-year limit. You hot, you hot as hell one year, you medium warm the second year, and by that period of year, we on to something else. You know, we on to something else. That's kind of, that's the common of the music, you know, it's fast food comes here, you know, every day on this week. I ain't this the same thing I listen to last Friday. So even artists like the Migos, how long was their run? Like five? What was that? I think, what, one of the, one of the, 2011, you know what I'm saying? Oh, yes. That was, they had a strong almost, almost a decade, right? They was about eight years. Yeah, that was probably when I was, because I think what the Migos is different because it was, and people kind of like, first of all, you gotta look at, there was not that many rap groups more, and every single person had their own style, and it was kind of like, over time, a different member kind of carried the group into a certain phase. Like first, it was all my favorite, right? Favorite was the Beyonce of the Migos, and it slowly went to house set, you know, doesn't have to be relationship, slowly went to house set, and house set was my second life. Takeoff was, takeoff, but you know, But takeoff was a lot of that core flow that we didn't know it, but he was that core flow that kind of got him off the ground. Yeah, he was kind of like a hard of the group, but he was like, unsung hero. Like no one really called, you know, you don't really pay too much to check out because he's not like a character. Yeah. Wave role and house set are like characters, right? I think with the Migos, I think the Migos just kind of like brought a different sound and flow, you know, even though the flow is, it's copy from a Memphis legend, my name is Lord Effemence. Not sure if you're familiar from 3-6, but they kind of brought a new style. When you bring something new to the game, I think you have a longer run than someone that's mimicking something that's already been out. You know what I'm saying? That's like, if you think about, because this, I always have an argument with people about like the most impactful rappers of all time, like not the dopest, not the most lyrical, but who's the most impactful, right? And I always say, you have to put in Tupac, Kanye West and Lil Wayne. And I feel like each one of those artists birthed a whole generation of rappers after them. Maybe even go back to, you know, I don't know how old school you are, but if you go back to like rock him, you know, and it came both of those guys, birth, Biggie, Jay, and it went through like a whole wave. But you have artists that come into the game and they add something that wasn't there. And the blueprint of what's going on, that stays as long as anything. True, true. Why do you think that, why do you think Nellie Fingin wasn't picked up? Right? Because really, he should be like that. Like he should have had a tree. But I think because of the state of the culture at the time and the hard culture, he didn't get a tree. So the next person is saying, you know, later on, then you get the drinks and Drake has a whole tree up under him. But, you know, Jiru was looked at for singing in a certain way after a certain period, after 50 came at him, even though 50 flipped it and started singing himself. But those were like more one-offs. There were no youngins just coming out and doing it. Why do you think, yeah, certain people like Nellie and other people, DMX, who did bring something crazy unique to the game didn't get a tree? I think sometimes artists like, even though Nellie kind of can't, I think Nellie, please grab me for one. I think Nellie was like, when music became very, very commercialized, I think Nellie was the pillar of commercialized pop. Right? As far as, and this, you gotta remember, this is early 2000. This is when rap music actually became pop music. And this is when, you know, I'm here and, you know, all those records that he was putting out was like the pillar of crossover music, right? I think sometimes when, you know, you might have artists that kind of do it, but they might not take it to a level that the next guy would take it to, right? Like, T-Pain was using auto-tool before Kanye was ever pushing it, right? It was Kanye and him being the creative genius that he is, he took it to a certain level that T-Pain couldn't take it to. Same thing with Nellie. I think Nellie had it and reached a certain level, but I think, and I'm trying to get my timeline right, so you kind of had Nellie like early 2000s. I think rap change, they went down to Atlanta, and that's when you got the GZs, the TIs, and the Gucci Man. So I just think Nellie kind of didn't, I just think rap changed too quickly for Nellie to kind of adapt to it. I just don't think that's why it, you know, went on to evolve, because rap change versus like Kanye, rap didn't change. It kind of started to, you know, he was like the birth of it, and then it really started to go on to that band with Kid Cuddy, and then you got Drake, and Drake became their superstar, right? And then it was after that, it was like, oh, everybody else, the juice world, XXX gigions, like all those guys afterwards just took it in different directions. It's of the same tree that was from Drake to Kanye, you know, etcetera, etcetera. Got you. Gotcha. Yeah, it's always funny here, like when you think about some of these trees because there's a lot of the artists who say, I'm not inspired, I don't even rock with this artist but it's like your stuff comes directly from this artist or it's connected in that tree, anybody who really knows and listens. Sometimes I might notice it because like you might hear these things growing up here. I think it's funny because I'm born in 1993, right? So a lot of these kids that's popping right now are born in the early 2000s. So they might have heard things, you know at four or five years old they might have heard their parents playing the music and didn't know like all this music is inspiring me to you know go off and rap and stuff like that. I think Lil Wayne is is pretty much is the most artist that influenced everyone. Like that Lil Wayne era was so dominant like there's no way that no artist today can not say Lil Wayne did not influence me. Yeah, it was just him for like for like seven years at least. How does my Lil Wayne to me and I argue with people, Lil Wayne is forever top five. Because nobody had a like Wayne Wayne. Yeah, yeah. I mean him and him and Drake have had the most unique runs or dominant runs but like but not like we had Wayne. Drake is Drake still is filled with contenders. It was just like nobody was Wayne. It was crazy. It was nobody at all. It was funny. There were you got to think Wayne came in a time where there was a TI, there was a Kanye, you know, so there was a GZ, you know, there was Jay was still active and Manin was still active. You know what I'm saying? So there was contenders but Wayne just had it. And what made Wayne's story so dope is that he came from when he was a kid. No one saw Wayne come. I don't think no one, because you have like Kendrick came out on fire. Drake came out on fire. Kanye, they came out on fire. Wayne didn't necessarily come out on fire. You know, he was a fourth member of the hot boys. Yeah. You know, he was the best member of the he's all through. Yeah. And slowly, all the time, you hear Wayne, so he's the eyes Wayne or whatever. It's Lil Wayne. And I don't know, but around part of two, we're like, oh, who the hell? And he's like, that's Lil Wayne. Like Robert E. Robert E. Lil Wayne. Yeah. Yeah, that was a Lil Wayne was like, what's his name? Lil Wayne was like, like Bobby Brown. Bobby Brown was not supposed to be the star. It was supposed to be Ralph Trezzvent. Yeah, exactly. He's the bigger one. He was the biggest, most charismatic in the one that people remember more than anybody. That's how Lil Wayne came. He was like, yo, you weren't supposed to be the one. It was supposed to be Juvenile. It was Juvenile. Yeah. Second. And then like, so you didn't, you didn't matter. I always say like Lil Wayne is the Kobe Brown of hip hop. The Kobe didn't necessarily come out on fire. And I don't think no one thought Kobe was going to be one of the greatest basketball players that ever lived. And then, you know, he got on Shaq and then was just one of the greatest to ever do it. I've heard that. I agree with a lot of those points. So I can't, I can, I can say I agree with a lot of those points. But sometimes I think about Drake being the Kobe Bryant, because I'm thinking, thinking about Jay-Z being Michael. Yes. So using him as that context is, because Lil Wayne is such a, like an outlier at the same time. He's so different. Drake is more like LeBron. I'm saying Drake is more like LeBron where I can give you that. Drake doesn't have as many classic albums or moments than Jay and Wayne. You know, depending on how you feel or whatever, I feel like Drake has one, I wouldn't give him two classic albums, which is Take Care and Nothing Was a Sign, right? Everything else is like, but all of his acts, singles, Billboard records, this and LeBron got, LeBron is this. Fat crunches. Yes. When, when, when, yeah, exactly. Like when LeBron is so with, yeah, he was, yeah, he won three rings, eight tries, nine tries, whatever it may be. But he's no more leading scorer. He's got ten assists and all that. That's going to be all the arguments. And with Drake, that's going to be his, he had all the hit records and you know, he wrote Billboard and did all of this. But as far as like hip hop, what did he do to the culture of hip hop? That's a whole another, you know, and then the ghostwriter thing doesn't make it any better. So yeah, that's true. Okay. So it's funny because they both, when I think about him and LeBron, they both play something like the nice guy role as well. That whole thing. And then when I think about Kobe and Lil Wayne, they are both extremely like the craft and kind of a recluse from the rest of the world. You know what I mean? So like, I could get, I could get, I could get with that. I could get with that. All right, that makes sense. And it's all in the same order. How can I argue with that? I love that. Pretty close, man. You got to give me, I didn't want to give him Drake his credit. I gave Drake his credit a few years ago. I didn't want to give him his credit. Why not? I got it for somebody who shifted their opinion. Why, why did you start off not trying to give him his credit? And then what made it change? I felt, man, at the time, I felt like he was, I'm a hip hop, like I'm, I'm a young hip hop here, right? I believe in traditional, like in a part of the culture and just really being about this hip hop stuff. And I felt like what Drake was doing was just doing pop records. He was kind of like, I don't know, compared to Vanilla Ice, but you know how Vanilla, you know how MC has like, you know, MCM has a diamond album, right? Like that was a diamond album, right? So you can't argue with a person that has a diamond album, right? And Drake was kind of the person that came in and I was getting all the success, but I felt like he didn't really embody the ideology of a great rapper, right? Man, because maybe because he was singing a lot, he was last year, whatever it is, maybe. So I didn't give Drake his credit until back to back. When I heard back to back against McMill, that's when he got my official stamp of approval. I said, yo, this guy right here. Because he was like, he was embodied the tradition of hip hop. He battled a great battle rapper and he won. Yeah. He embarrassed him. That's why that moment helped and hurt him in the same vein, right? Because it goes right at thing, but then it allowed him to show improvement that moment right there. And I remember hearing that back to back that first time. And I was like, oh, okay. It's the way you get it, man. You know what's funny? Just a little on the topic of Drake and Battle Rapper. People might not agree. I'm gonna be honest. Did you hear the Drake freestyle against Pusha T? The one he was going back for? Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. Drake, he had one. He might have gotten pushed. I'm gonna be honest. He might have gotten pushed. Yeah. Yeah. That freestyle was some tough. When you go back and listen to it and the way he came in, I was just like, whew. I felt the same. I felt that way in the moment. That style, that more aggressive style, a lot of times I feel like it allows things to be judged on a sliding scale where they amped it up for Pusha T's verse. Obviously Pusha's dope, but in that, I didn't think he got killed like people thought. And I'm not big on the gimmicks, the big reveals of someone's personal life and things like that. Not like, oh, you shouldn't have did that. I just don't really care about that kind of stuff because that really just feels like gossip. I'm just about how did you line up the bars and did you touch me in a certain way? Drake, yeah. I was with him in that moment. I was with him in that moment. But I couldn't really say that out loud. You couldn't really argue because everybody was coming the other way. Yeah, because it was the shock factor because we really wanted Drake to lose. I didn't really care, but he really wanted Drake to lose. And so for Pusha to come out the way, don't get it real. Pusha got off. He got off. But Drake is far as like clever wordplay. And when he said, if you rebuked me for writing for someone else, what do you think of the nigga that's making your beats? He was going to the game. I was just like, yo, here was just a happy thing to write for y'all. And it was like, it was good, it was good, it was good, it was tough. Yeah. I had a big experience, man. At the end of the day, Drake is going to go down as top 10. I can't put in top five, but he would definitely go down as top 10. Okay. So you got the list tight. I mean, let me hear your top five right quick before we get out of here, bro. My personal top five was the top five. Oh, I want to hear the difference. What the difference is personal top five. I might not think these guys are like the best rappers, but these are the guys that I personally listen to the most. And why? I don't listen to five rappers. For us, my life, these are the five rappers I listen to. Who I think is the top five is who are people I think everyone can pretty much agree that these are the greatest rappers that ever rapped ever. All right. So who, but who are the people though? I want to hear the difference of people. Okay. So who I think is the greatest top five, I got to give it a hold. I think Jay is probably, I don't think no one can argue that Jay Z is the greatest rapper that ever lived. Like anybody that's been rapping since 1996 and ain't fell off yet, you got to get that man's credit. So I definitely think Jay is number one. Number two, I got to say Kendrick Lamar. And even though he's still new, I believe just his four albums are probably going to, you know, have you, you know, put him his four albums, I think are probably the top 20 or 50 greatest rap albums. So I got to give Kendrick that number two. Number three, I got to give it to Adam to Nas. Right. And it's hard, you know, I feel like Nas to me is, is so underrated. It's because his P selection is terrible. But Illmatic is literally like one of like when 20, like 50 years down the line from hip hop, I still think Illmatic is going to be one of the most popular hip hop albums of all time. So you got to give them that regardless of everything else. Illmatic is that one album, they got to put them in that top five. It's like the male miseducation. That's what that is. Yeah. And it was one, but at the same time, I mean, it's one of those albums that like, I feel like it's going to, it changed culture. And I just think it's going to transition through generation, through generation. So I got to throw Nas in number three. Number four, I can't say I can't be number four. I can't be like they were, because I feel like they were, I can't put one above the other, honestly. You know what I'm saying? I just, I think if I had to choose one out of the two, I would have to say Tupac. I feel like Tupac embodied what a rapper is. And still it's, you know, it's just over time, he embodied a true rapper. He was, wasn't this lyrically skilled to whatever the case may be, but the passion of hip hop, Tupac was a guy. And number five, I give it a little wham. Nobody had it like Wayne and Wayne had it. And it's, I don't think we would ever see what made Wayne so dope. And he's wrong. He just did it by outworking everybody. Yeah. Like that's it. He's just like, yo, Hope was like, I'm putting out an album every summer. Like, you know, like DMX jumping through albums in the same year was very impressive. Wayne was like, Nick, I'm coming out of six mixed tapes in the same year. I'm gonna be on everybody's record. And it was just like, y'all, how can you not get this guy? He fell off super bad out of the protocol when they don't count that. That was, that was Michael Jordan went to the Wizards and they don't count that. But Wayne is definitely the type of guy. Now, the type of who I listen to and who I like, who shaped my life. Kanye West, regardless of the red hat, everything else, Kanye West music as some of the best music I've ever heard in my life. Right? I don't think he's as, I don't think he, because he's mainly a producer. It's really just the music that Kanye makes to me personally. That makes him my number one. Number two, personal favorite, Big Crit. Big Crit's music really changed my life. When I was born through things in life, I was on a Big Crit album. And, you know, I've never heard, I've never heard a bad Big Crit song. I can't say that about you. Number three, I had to go on Kendrick Lamar. Kendrick is just, just one of the illest that ever did it. Number four, I'm going to throw in Jake Cole. I think Jake Cole is one of those guys, this, you know, just when you in there, when you go through some, like he's just got something to say that just kind of here. Right? So Jake Cole, and then number five, you know, if I was always tricky and it kind of changed the number five all the time, but I'm going to say Pimp C from UGK. Like I said, Pimp C was just, you know, riding very like all those albums and me just growing up from the set. That was like the soundtrack by my childhood. My cousins was listening to Pimp C and UGK. And it just something about Pimp that just always stuck with me just personality wise. You know, so I listen to Pimp C almost every week. This is an old, whatever record, this is his record every week. That's what's up. That's what's up. Yeah, man. That's something, you know, I'm sure other regions feel the way they feel, but yeah, just, it's something, man, that just about that Southern stuff, man. Being from the South is just like, you know, you get a certain way when you're going up in the South and everything, talking about you seeing, you seen the candy pain, you seen the, you know, the cause on the foes and the swangers and you see people go up and drag. It just, it was a certain lifestyle and a culture that you just saw and it was just so relatable. So, you know, saying everything that was going on, but y'all are your top five. Who, who, who are you listening to? Who y'all who are top five? This ain't, this ain't, this ain't about me, bro. This ain't about me, bro. This is good. Just as a, you know, just as a fan, I just, I'm, I'm always serious with my people top five. That's how I judge you. Oh, Jay-Z. This is, wait, are you talking about the objective top five or just like all right. So Jay-Z is still, and these are all, they're like impacting me in some kind of way. Like just having to catch me at a moment. So, let me see, Jay, Jay Cole, I'm about to put these two in one. The, the rich game project with Lil, uh, Young Dug and Rich Homie. It was, it was something about that space in my life. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was something about that space in my life. Um, ah, it gets hard though. After that, especially with rappers, sometimes I go to R&B easier. Um, if I had to listen to the rest of my life, who would I listen to? Uh, I want to say Jay-Z and my, I'm going to put that on the side. Oh man. Let me see. I actually never thought about a personal top four in that way. I mean, there's a difference. Some people are just kind of like, you know, if you don't have it, you know, just don't have it. If you got told people, like in court. Nice. I'm thinking probably Big Crit and Biggie Smalls. Okay. I think that rounded it out too. Yeah. Just off the top, those are the, those are the ones that, that came to me. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta throw, you know what? I gotta, since you said we putting two in one, I gotta throw, I gotta throw Hove in there, right next to Kaya. I gotta throw Hove. Okay. Next to Kaya. All right. That makes sense. And I don't know why my mind went blank when I thought about Hove. And I'm actually upset with myself that I did not throw Hove in there because like reason without that, um, like when I went back and heard it, I was like, yo, this is the best thing I've heard. So I don't know why I didn't put Hove in there, but Kaya and Hove in the same vein is, as my number one. I don't know why I forgot that, but Hove and Kaya the same. That was why I never tried to ever been to that. The concept, that concept changed my life. When I saw Kaya in 2011, I was just like, yo, like that's rap show I ever seen. It was my first, you know, near and dear to my heart. Okay. Yeah. See, I can see that. I can see that because when I think about my tops, I said everything, well, in that particular size, all is very specific reasons. Like, are you talking about your first show and all that stuff? Like I said, that period in my life were rich, rich on me and young, but just like, there's a lot of visuals, a huge specific soundtrack. A lot of music I've always loved, but for some reason that one hit different than Jay-Z. It really started, my dad had this mixtape from like this DJ put together. It was like all his verses. So it was like 30, 40 tracks of just his verses going from songs, different songs to songs. So it was probably the best stuff. So I'm just listening, like just diverse. Like that was the first time I ever paid attention to his lyrics because they weren't necessarily all just full song. And a lot of them were B-Sides and they had this track with him, DMX and Ja Rule, that was crazy. So I was like, that impacted me in a way. Crit and Jay Cole, I discovered them at the same time on YouTube, you know, back in like high school, Crit just, I was always, I thought he was going to be so much bigger, especially when he came out with country shit. I thought he was, all right, this is going to be one for him. Yeah, you know what, you, man, bro, when you say that, I met the Crit, I think I met him, this is 2020, I met him last year. I was telling him, you know, how much like we're trying to forever like all those early projects he did, how that like changed my life. And one of the things I had to mention to him, I was like, yeah, like, you know, keep doing you, bro. I feel like you still got so much more to go. I think like Big Crit, when you think of like the new guys, Drake's, Kendrick's, Jay Cole's, right, I feel like Big Crit should be right there with them. And for whatever reason, Crit never got to that point. And I just feel like, I don't know if it just because he's so southern and I think it has a lot to do with it. It has a part of it. There's nobody like period, right? Like that has that accent, that strong accent. Like it used to be a lot of those dudes. But like just the fact that he rats still with that accent is meaningful in today's climate where you don't hear a lot of people on a like recognizable level that had it. It was the pipsy bum, the, like the whole Houston, the whole, like just the whole South, right? But you don't really hear no guys who's young that you can think of to have that accent. Yeah, I mean, there's a couple like, you know, Yellow Beazy, I think it's one of those guys that have like a very- He's not on the same notoriety, like that level. He's talking about past a certain level of notoriety, not that he's not dope. And I rock with him. But like Crit, you just mentioned Crit as where he should have been, right? Like there's nobody that gets recognized on that level that has really any kind of Southern accent. Like the Migos don't, they, they talk like Atlanta, which is a little bit different than like that other Southern, you know what I mean? Like that, it's not that country accent. It's like a Southern hood accent, you know what I mean? Like which is different. Yeah, Atlanta is, is the popping, it's like, you know, I heard someone say this, right? And I couldn't disagree. They said Atlanta has held proposal hip hop longer than any post. Yeah. Well, honey, I didn't think about it. And someone told me was like, I didn't really think of cause it was like, if he's really put into play to like, New York had it in, you know, 80s in your early 80s up until like late 80s. And so the NWA came out, right? And then it was kind of like the 90s was kind of split, you know what I'm saying? Like how do you want to put it? Early 90s was more maybe New York. And then late 90s when pop and and, uh, Dre and Snoop was all them was dropping was kind of like mid 90s up until like the early 2000s. And then it just shifted with outcasts. And then it just kind of stayed in Atlanta from outcasts. And then you went on to get Tia and Gucci and GZ and Shawty Lowes and, you know, all those guys and D4L and all those guys kind of led. And then when you got the prime of Atlanta, right, when you got the Walker Flockers and they Travis Porter is from Atlanta, right? Yeah. Yeah, when Travis Porter and and all those guys and then when the Miko's really took off. Future thug, all that. Yeah. It just it just had thug and future. And you know what I'm saying? Like yep, you did not let us, you know, and, you know, it's just Atlanta has to go down. It might have gone down as number one, like coast of your pop past New York past LA over time, over time, the generation after me will mean a little bit younger than me. We all think we're going to know the left. We're not going to know the right in New York. And I knew New York is unfair because they, they, they control the media too. Exactly. Everything's in New York. Yeah. Yeah. New York is very powerful in New York. It's New York, Brazil, and New York divided in itself. I know. Atlanta is just Atlanta. Like no matter if you're from Rivendell, like it don't matter. Atlanta is just Atlanta. New York, you're Queens, you're Brooklyn, you're Staten Island, you're the Bronx. You know, they wouldn't, they wouldn't get together at all. Yeah. Yeah. Hold on, hold on. Let me, let me, let me get you up out of here, man, like on the interview too. We can talk after, bro. Like, tell them, tell them where to, where to follow you, right? Oh yeah, man. You can follow me on Instagram at myjack12 on this M-I-C-J-A-C-K12. Feel free to hit me up man if you got any questions. And yeah, man, you know, I'm always on Instagram. That's kind of my place. I'm always at. So yeah, feel free to hit me up on Instagram. 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