 Welcome to the Monday, July 22, 2019 meeting of the Motelier Design Review Committee. I will let members and staff introduce themselves. Liz Pritchett, Meredith Crandall, staff. Stephen Everett, Seth Mitchell, Benjamin Cheney. For anyone who's not here, been here before, we are advisory to the Motelier Development Review Board. We will listen to each of the applications and move them forward. And do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. For a second. All in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. Unless anybody has anything else to offer, we'll go to the first application for 149 State Street. Come up and have a seat, Joe. Good evening, everyone. Good evening. Um, the cut sheets... Hold on, you can move the microphone towards you. Oh, yeah, and there we go. Thank you. Um, I have, the cut sheet that I provided for you was inaccurate. I didn't realize that Ellen Lumber also quoted their 8200 series, which is a vinyl plaid, and I saw my mistake about four days ago. So these, this is the Marvin integrity, which was the, what we originally were pricing because that's what we originally decided. And my name is Joseph Ferrari. I'm one of the owners. My wife and I own the building and we purchased it somewhere around 84, 85. I was a very young man. Nice building. It's a beautiful building. So we are proposing to replace 29 of the original windows in what I believe is the original part of the building. And if you look at the photograph of the building, it has three separate roof lines and the first front in the street, that has a full foundation of feel stone and brick on the back of it. Then there's a midsection of the lower roof line and then a third section with even a lower roof line. The third section was the carriage house originally and when we purchased it, it was in a dilapidated condition in the mid 80s and we rebuilt it. And we followed the pattern of the colors of the windows of the time. I think the midsection was added on well before, certainly well before our ownership and probably well before those two rear sections are crawl space areas with a five foot foundation crawl space. So the windows in the rear were basically there, but we never changed the windows in the midsection. We had to replace the windows in the rear section to match the midsection. And what we're proposing is the 29 double hung windows in the front section of the building. Those are original windows to the building. Now we're going with white for two reasons. One is we scraped some of the windows to see if we could find another color and we did not. And then the second reason not seeing that is that because all of the other windows are white trim, it would look odd if the front sections were all dark trim. But we found no scent, no resemblance or sense of there being a darker color. I thought there would be shutters. I'm not sure if they're original. As you can see them, they are very dark green. So I thought maybe the windows would be trimmed dark, but we could not find any evidence of that. And then there's a rear section where there are more shutters and the windows that we are proposing to replace are two over two patterns because that seems to be the majority of the windows in the building, in that section of the building. And it was followed in the rear section also, I believe, when they were replaced. And there are only a couple of windows that are one over one, you know, one sheet over one sheet. Those were most likely replaced by someone who owned it in the past. We've never replaced a window in that section. So the windows that we're proposing are two over two patterns trying to duplicate as close as possible to the original. Where do you historical photos that you've found? There was not historical. There was a photo that was given to me years ago, but it's really of the house at the corner of Baylien State. You can't really see our building. And that was probably from the 50s maybe. But this building's vintage would be about 1875. Illuminum storms on the rear section. Yes, there are aluminum storms on all of the windows now. And those will come off? Well, those are coming off on the 29 that we're replacing. Yes, that aluminum storm will also come off. Yes. And the cavities will all be insulated and caught, you know, where the ropes were on the weights. Do you have an idea how much your opening is going to shrink? I don't. I can't figure that out myself. I don't think there's going to be much shrinkage. Usually, I think, I mean, are you replacing the jams or anything? Just the windows? The windows. It's a whole unit? It's a whole unit. Yes, a whole unit. I mean, jams and everything. Yeah, so they probably usually try to make the windows as close as possible to the opening and the window size as close to what was there. Are you replacing exterior trim? No. Not unless we find something, you know, if there's a piece of exterior trim that's damaged, rotted, it'll be replaced. So then you would be leaving the jams. The jams are replaced. The outside case? Yes. And you take the, I mean, these were all custom measured by Scott Wilson. These were all custom measured. And what he does is he measures the rough opening and then they size this window accordingly. When you have the sash wastes, the old jams were wider and there's more airspace. So when my experience in replacing these, a number of them, was that when we put them to window end, the actual glass size was within three quarters of an inch, total width. I was told they were going to be, you're replacing them as close as you could ever possibly replace them. Obviously the advantage is you have an insulated glass and you don't have to count on your tenants to close the storm windows. You don't have? Well actually they can't close or open many of these windows. I mean they are guillotines to begin with because the weights are gone and many of them over the years I guess. And also they're really subject to moisture and they're a bear. So your SDL bar is actually glued to the glass, right? Yes. And it says you don't have a spacer bar? Correct. I found that you have to get within about to 10 feet of a window at eye level to even begin to see whether there's a spacer bar the way they apply on both sides of the insulated glass. Is that between shadowing and you wouldn't see it a spacer bar? Again, it was on like ground floor and you were walking right by it. And the profiles that you have are pretty basic on the existing. So back to this question a second. So you're peeling off all the interior trim, pulling off the two jams, leaving the exterior trim where it is, putting the window up against that, then insulating in that cavity and then putting the interior trim back. On the interior all you have to remove are the stops for the old sesh. You remove those and then everything else comes out. Put this window in and then those stops, sometimes you trim them down half an inch or something and then they go right up against the new jam frame. And there's some foam or something that allows the crimp for out of square. Shedders are original. I think so. I think so. They look original. Painter I know hates dealing with them. Any other comments, questions, suggestions? There's a set of criteria that are used to gate are used for each of the projects and I'll just read down through them. Number one, preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style that the proposed projects in the historic district are involves an historic structure, acceptable harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district acceptable, compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district acceptable, compatibility of proposed landscaping not proposed in this application, prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials acceptable, location and appearance of all utilities, no change in any of the utilities lighting, okay not applicable, recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house acceptable, all in favor of the applications proposed raise your hand. You just sign this lower left right above my name. Oh above your name. Yes, right in that little block there. Thank you. How's that? And that'll go back to our office and I'll issue you your permit in probably a couple of days. Oh okay and then I'll wait for that and then order. I didn't want to be presumptuous, nothing as you can see from one window. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for maintaining that building so well. Thank you very much. Very nice place. Thanks again. It's an endeavor. Yes, the next application for 130 Main Street, the Unitarian Church, whoever's involved come forward and have a seat. And just for public knowledge this isn't actually an application, it's just an informal review of a potential project and if just so you know that microphone works best if it's pointed exactly at whoever's talking so we'll put it's a problem we'll move this one down a little bit to the cat but... We're going to make Barbara do it all the time. Oh, yeah, boy. That's right. Oh, they don't have any stands in here anymore. No, they don't. I'll be banned. Put it closer. So you can also put it up on a chair if you want. Yeah, yeah. Bring a chair up. Give it its own seat. Yeah, so thanks for meeting with us, allowing us to jump into your schedule here. It's just a big copy of... We made copies of these for everybody. Yes, so we're a subcommittee from the Unitarian Church and I'll introduce myself. I'm Barbara Connery. Chris Hammond. Yes, Samon. And as Meredith said we're just looking for some really guidance here in terms of a very preliminary review as you probably all know and we're going to welcome any of your comments or suggestions that you have. As you probably know, our church was built in 1864 and designed by Thomas Silaway. But there was a 1983 edition put on the back which you can pretty much see just almost almost everything beyond the sanctuary was part of the edition. Yeah, one of the things we wanted to stress here today too was the mission of our church because it becomes a big part in terms of what we're trying to do with the building. And our mission states that we welcome all as we build a loving community to nurture each person's spiritual journey, serve human need, and protect the earth, our home. So a big part of what we're proposing has to do with serving human need and within the loving community. We're aware of course that the building is within the design review district. And that certain limited criteria are still applied by design review, although the full zoning is not applied to this building. But having to do with location, size, height, building bulk, yards, courts, setbacks, and the density of the buildings. So just to give you a little background, our congregation is grown and we already have grown beyond the existing building. And so in 2018, a church task force met with Black River Design and did some really conceptual plans for an addition and renovation. So that's why you will sometimes see their name on these drawings. But these are just concepts really. One of the primary needs that we have is an expansion of our kitchen. But the kitchen currently is located in the center of the building. It's really landlocked and it's about half the size that it needs to be. In the past we sort of made it work, but now we serve community lunch every Monday to 120 people and it really, really doesn't work any longer. Also it really needs upgrades in terms of equipment and ventilation. And it's currently a circulation path as well. So it's basically on many fronts we needed to make changes. Just so we get oriented in what we have is just the proposed floor plan. The current kitchen is in which of these buildings? I think it's in the current kitchen. The first floor, the meeting room? Yes, the meeting room, the room adjacent to it, and the corridor that's up above it. So as you see, you're right. And basically under or above the organ? Below the organ. Below the organ. Sorry about that. Because that was sort of the first addition to the building we believe was for the organ and that space below was then taken over as the kitchen. And it has been for quite a long time. So we looked at a lot of different concepts to keep the kitchen on the inside of the building. But that would have meant pretty much eliminating the stage, which currently is used by community groups as a performance space. So we felt that that wasn't ultimately the best solution. And so what was proposed kind of later on in the process was this addition to the north. And as a free, not free standing, but as a separate construction as in addition to the building, we would have a lot more flexibility in terms of size, be able to come out and meet the property set back and design it in a way that would really accommodate all of our equipment needs, as well as health and safety needs. And then potentially adjacent to it in the exterior would be space for all of the things that we're currently doing in the back of the building in terms of trash and recycling and all of that that currently face onto the river. So the proposal, also we felt that the north side of the building is being underutilized. So that at least if we could take some of that space and make use of it. So as you'll see, if you look at the upper right-hand corner of the handout, there's a little isometric rendering here. It shows it one story high in order to keep it below the sanctuary windows. The windows in the sanctuary are pretty low. The sills are low. And so we have a limited amount of vertical height in there. So it does determine that it needs to be a flat roof. We would connect through, as you can see in the lower floor plan, to the existing vestry through a couple of window openings, so there wouldn't be any additional openings in the historic building. Also, we came to the conclusion that the floor level will be about, of the kitchen will be meet the vestry, which is currently about four feet above the grade, at least at the sidewalk on Main Street. And one of the other things that we've come to discover, too, is that due to the need for new equipment and flood proofing, that our options for installing windows on the Main Street side and even towards our northern neighbors is limited. One of the concepts, oh, yes, you'll see on this larger board that is a little fenced in yard between the addition and Main Street. Yeah, yeah, that little dark thing you see there is actually a bench. But the idea was to sort of create a separate space. It may or may not be used to actually provide access to the building, but at least it would provide a secured, say, play space for kids out in front. And so that's the basic thing that right now we're looking at, although you'll notice from the plan that there is also a proposed potential addition to the north side of the building, to the north side of the addition to accommodate some additional space and to handle some circulation issues that we have. So that would be more in keeping with the existing addition. And you can see the hip roof in the back there that indicates that expansion, because currently the addition does not stick out beyond the building. And then finally, our third point is that our goal in the church with the renovations is to become net zero so that we're producing as much energy as we're using. And a big part of that has to do with photovoltaics. And so our plan is to put PV on the roof on the south side. Sorry, I don't have a rendering of that side. We've had a proposal from several different contractors already, and we feel like we could produce well in excess of what we actually need. So, but at first I would thought that that roof was not visible, but if you are across Main Street and like in front of Bethany, you can see that roof. But one of the things that we felt was important was to keep the solar panels on the building to actually, first of all, be a guide to sort of be a model for the rest of the city, that we're willing to take the step to become net zero, and we'd like to see that happening throughout the city. So, okay. Is it a slate roof? No, it's shingle. Yeah, and it's fairly recent. Um, yeah, we've been replacing it on a regular basis. So any thoughts or reactions you have, we certainly welcome. Was there a consideration to gang the kitchen with this new addition? Yes, um, one of the, if you look at the floor plan that you have on the first floor, there's a room called the fireplace room right there, which has a historic significance to quite a few of the members in the church. It's actually set up much more as a, almost like a parlor living space with, and it has a fireplace that's not currently functioning. Right now we use that as overflow during, or for families with children during the sermon. Um, so if we were to move the kitchen back, it would pretty much obliterate those windows into the fireplace room, and also would make access between the kitchen and the vestry where the community lunch happens. It would make it difficult. It would, I think, pretty much eliminate the use of that fireplace room. So, the window is, there are two windows or one window in the fireplace room? Into the fireplace room? Yeah, there are two. And actually, Look at this down the bottom. Yeah, this one is sort of a modified Canadian with two flaking windows, and this is around top, and we're not actually sure, at least I'm not sure where that Canadian window came, but it might originally have been on the back side of the church, but I can't say for certain. But could it be conceivable that you could build the addition near that window if it comes to here, and you'd lose one window, but you might gain circulation? Right, so essentially what that would mean is if the kitchen was here, that our serving would have to take place in the fireplace room. It's fairly narrow for that, because currently, actually, this is the edge of the stage. Currently, when we set up for community lunch, we put tables between these two columns, and we actually use the stage as sort of a back bar kind of area. And so, just the area for serving is pretty large, and then we've got the whole public coming by here, so I'm not sure that the fireplace room is wide enough. So is the kitchen, you're not seating people in the kitchen, right? Because the kitchen's purely for work. Right, yeah, and basically, we definitely want to have it separated and have separate entrances for food as opposed to journey dishes. That's one of the issues that we have right now. I think there's some fire-coated issues, too. And then, are you having deliveries through the kitchen or to the kitchen? Currently, we have deliveries come in off of School Street, and I believe the intention is to continue to do that. Apparently, we don't, other than deliveries from the food pantry, we don't get a lot of large truck delivery. We have use of this parking area on Sundays and in the evenings, but it's not all the way around, so they don't really want us to use that. Yeah, right. So this wouldn't be like a loading dock. It's more of a neat address there. Yeah, as I remember from being in there, that the fireplace room has a lot of interior historic significance with trim details in the fireplace and the windows. Right, right. It's really a very kind of warm and welcoming space. Exactly how I was thinking of it, warm and welcoming, yeah. So I can see how you want to try to preserve that. Yes, awesome. Yeah, I guess the drawback is that you have this bump out right below these windows that there's some. I see what you're saying, yeah. To tracks a little bit from that. I see, yeah. This feels familiar. It just seems like the more you kick it back, the better off you would be, but try and understand regarding the windows. I think one of the issues that we've been dealing with a lot with the current kitchen is that it functions hallway, and so we're trying to avoid. Which is a no-no for sure. It's just, you know, I think a lot of our, I mean the fireplace room is kind of a hallway too, and so I think the extent we can really deal with some of these traffic flow issues, I think that's one thing that we're trying to accomplish with some of these other changes. Because it means that you've got these hard to have meetings when you have, it becomes a walkway for people. So you're more than doubling the kitchen size from your original? Yes. Also to include some storage. Food storage, because currently we don't have that in our kitchen. Like a walk-in cooler? No, we don't have anything that large, just refrigerators. We never hold the food for that long, but there are several refrigerators in the basement, which we really don't want to continue. So is Black River massed, that shell, based on a fit-up program with all the equipment? There is, there are some preliminary designs, yeah. And basically what we did was pretty much come out almost as, you know, basically to the setback line, which is what's represented here. Are you just maximizing it, or are you, is it just maximized as far as what you can do there in that spot, or is it specific to the interior fit-up? It has been specifically designed, but it's not, and it's necessarily its final design. It was laid out schematically. One of the other things too, that is, you know, I certainly agree with the way this space back here feels, was to try and sort of tie these two together, if just with a high fence or something like that. This is the area where I said we could have, end up having mechanical equipment, and for sure we'll have trash and recycling, and all of those aspects. And it's not, I don't believe that it's actually set right now, that this would be the width of the new addition. You know, potentially it could, it could move this way more too, to bring those two masses together. What about mechanical vent in your hood, and everything that's coming out of this kitchen? How's it, I mean, it's not represented on this rendering, right? As to what that's going to look like. Yeah, we're hoping, I talked to someone about that, and they were saying that they were assuming that it would be a side walled end. Side walled out the back. It'd be great if it could come out this side, but functionally, I don't know if it, it might have to come out this side, but it would definitely not come out towards the street. What is the space currently used for, between the proposed kitchen? It's grass area. Just grass area? Yeah, yeah, and sometimes the kids use it. Oh, Ashley, take it back. Where's the labyrinth? The labyrinth is kind of right here. Yeah, so it's just a stone labyrinth in the ground. Okay, is there, are there any exterior doors in this back section, proposed section, either any egress doors? There would be. Yeah, it doesn't exactly show up on this rendering, but if, if the stairs was to be back here, it would have to come out towards the river. The idea being that you come down, almost have a flight to reach grade. So that's currently, currently there's a small set of stairs, which is really inadequate in here. It's a switchback stair that comes down and then eventually exits out this way. Where does the platform left go from where to where? Well, it doesn't show on the lower level. And it's, it's the Lula here. And it goes from the second, the first and second floor plan, at least, to, oh, I see, I was misreading that. It may, again, not necessarily be in that location. We like to be able to use it to take to the basement because of the, we have, you know, various things stored down there, just decorations and things like that. So it'd really be helpful if it could go to the basement. And also, we're really working with this access of issues on this floor because currently we have about five different levels in here. So this is being the second floor. As essentially the floor level of the addition is only 13 inches different than the floor level of the sanctuary. But to get from here to there, literally you have to go down, go up, go up, and go down. So it's not very accessible. Is there any way to solve some of that with your kitchen? We don't do that. That's critical. Yes, you know. And, and we haven't quite resolved that. That's why I'm saying that this, these two elements of the stairs in the Lula may not end up in this particular. Is there a chance to add additional courtyard and possible access between the proposed kitchen and the back's addition? And back here. It's certainly possible. And I'm trying to think functionally if it wouldn't be really helpful. Okay. Yeah, it's just. Yeah. No, I mean, thanks for bringing that up, Steve. Because I'm thinking about people who come in, like when we come in to serve at the community lunch, there's a lot of people coming in, in fact, right through the kitchen right now. And, and basically what we're doing is putting our things here and then going out to serve. So being able to make sure that we have an access that could go out here to get into the kitchen would also be useful. Is any thought given to possible outside seating during seasonally? It was originally in this area up here. That in fact, there was thought about trying to put in a handicap ramp that might actually come up and enter into the vestry here. Some problems with that have to do with the fact that there's no airlock entrance then. And there is, it would be a 48 foot ramp. But creating, especially if we were to, to separate that off with some fencing and things like that. I think seating area out there would be a big part of it. I think it would be nice to see people sitting out there eating. Yeah, it would. So you know that that event is happening. Sure, sure. This rendering looks like it's proposing some sort of stone. And some sort of, I don't know if we're to this level of the tail. Yeah, they were sort of. Don't get the thought of it cool. Yeah, that's what I figured. And some of us have blanked out a little bit. I'm not totally clear. Looks like the water didn't quite come out. But anyway, there was talk about a pergola out there. So that's what you're seeing there. But this wall here being the front wall of the kitchen, purposely blank so that it becomes more of a backdrop. And who knows, maybe it could have plants. They certainly show a row of plants and trees in front of that wall. I guess one question is, is the notion to try to maintain the same sort of historical character wrapping around this, or is it an idea to be a bit of a departure for the way? Well, I'm not certain. In terms of the fenestration, the windows, there's not much chance that it can be. Even in the existing vestry, those are very long double hung windows, which functionally we couldn't do in here. But certainly it would be clabbered with corner boards and cornice detail that would not mimic the church, but at least would be consistent, maybe more consistent with the 1983 edition. Is there space for a narrow landscape bed along that wall as well? Along this wall towards the north wall? Yes, I would think so, yeah. I mean, because we've got, still have space here, but we've also got the setback that we can put landscaping in. Yeah, and I think modifying the massing of the proposed addition here could potentially help to connect those elements together a little bit more. How close is the roof to be to the sill? It feels like it's going to have to be really close. I have to say, I didn't take a look at that to see what the floor thickness is. The ceiling in the existing vestry down below is about 10 feet, so we have, and then the ceiling, the sill of the windows about two and a half, would you say? Yeah, above the sanctuary floor. So we may have at least some pitch to it. I'd almost, I mean personally, I would almost prefer to have an interior drain and have it be a sort of, if it's going to be flat, to have it be flat, not have it be a very slight slope with a shed drainage. I don't like that much. I feel like it would be nice if this whole thing could get behind this one window. It feels, I mean, sure, we're looking at a very small rendering here, but it feels- Behind the first sanctuary window? Yeah, these windows are beautiful. And I feel like this is beginning to crowd them, crowd them and make them sort of like diminish them a little bit. And if there was a way to be able to move this kitchen wall back just enough that it gave that window its full do, because I mean, this is, you know, I don't know how much of that I see driving down Main Street, but I do feel like it begins to diminish this window. That could just push back two feet. This window is clear here, but you're saying if the basting moved back a little bit. It looks like this wall is almost like a parapet is going above the wall on the side. One interesting treatment might be to bring that down and then do a very slight slope around the building to mimic the addition in the back. It doesn't, it wouldn't have to be- You have- Oh, because it's a hip in the back. A hip on the kitchen itself. Right. A small hip on the kitchen that wraps around, that mimics the addition in the back. Even bringing a hip up and then still having a flat, having a flat on the top. Yes. Rather than having such a low slope. Yeah. Yeah, that would be certainly help to bring those two elements together. Because we could never match the pitch of the existing roof. No. No, but just a small hip on the one-story addition might blend it in. Yeah, it might help to potentially inform the reform of the addition as well. Yeah, I don't know if you can pull that off personally. And I think the flat with an interior slope- Pardon? I think the flat is the better way to go because it separates itself out from the original head from the addition. Yeah. And I think that if you go with the hip, it's going to look truncated. It will. I don't think it will. It will only come up a few feet. Yeah, I think it will work personally. I think, again, I think the best point, pushing it further back is definitely a win. So getting this wall back just past the second. Well, as far as it could go. Yeah. I may think one of the issues, these are existing windows. And we're thinking of just opening those up, turning them into doors. So if we move this wall over, we kind of, we lose that flow through. You've got to punch and either have just one entrance. Peter's got to create another hole in the wall there. Or I think the idea, you know, I think we just want to have a little more circulation in and out of the kitchen. So is the kitchen, is there a serving area? Would actually be outside in the vestry. It's outside, so. But we need to have one door that's dedicated to moving food through it, and one door that's dedicated to moving soil dishes. That's what you're told. Yeah, and unfortunately, I mean, this, this beladian window here really creates a stop for us. Otherwise, you know, if, if that wasn't there, if it was relocated or something, we'd have much more flexibility in terms of pushing the mass back. What is, what is this little corner partition here? Is that a closet in the fireplace room? It's actually, it's actually a bathroom. Oh, okay. It's a toilet room. Yeah, it's about the size of a closet. Yeah, so that's not necessarily a critical element to everything. So if we, you know, had to break through that, I think it's possible we could do that. Is this center portion here? Is that just a solid wall? Or is there a pass through there? No, it's a solid wall right now. Although I keep hearing from everyone that the best design of kitchens is, has a lift door to it, but the proposal to keep more of the, I think historic feeling was to have the two doors and still have serving tables out in the vestry. It's kind of what we've gotten used to doing. I'll put it in the chair. The pass through can be very useful as far as setting things out, exactly. Exactly. Back in, without having to necessarily go through the door and set it down. You can set it there and then somebody inside can move in. Right, I think, you know, and I think that that discussion needs to happen more. Because... It seems to work pretty well on the fact of the invisible church. Yeah, because without that, we really need, like we have over here, we need sort of a staging area. And once we start pushing out into the vestry, we're really cutting into our seating area. And today it was pretty full in there for lunch. So if the office meeting and all that circulation, if the office meeting went somewhere else and the circulation went somewhere else, could you put kitchen there? Or is it too far away? I looked at that. I was really tempted, but it is a very long way. So essentially what would have to happen is we'd have to use the fireplace room for serving. Or currently, or walk through it, which is currently what we do now. We walk through the room that's listed as lobby down on the south side. Yeah, from the kitchen we walk through the lobby to get access to the vestry. And what they end up doing is putting the dirty dish service in the lobby, which is actually currently a classroom. But it's a lot of movement. Yeah, it's a lot of stuff in there. Yeah, you can understand why this is so important. Yeah. Anything you can do to minimize distance moved is definitely an asset. Well, I don't know what you guys think, but I think we could certainly take a look at the service windows in there to minimize. We have a lot of people using this kitchen that have a lot of opinions about it. How it should be laid out. So it's going to be interesting. Yeah, we've got 250 opinions yet. Oh dear. Yeah, I think on all the plans we got from Black River, this is a blank space. But there actually has been quite a lot of thought given over to what are we going to put in there? To really figure out your major input should come from the cooks. Yes, that's right. Well, the people that do the community lunches, they're the ones that have some ideas about how things change. They certainly know what should happen. Yeah, and one thing that should happen is ventilation and cooling. I mean, I don't know what... Liz, were you involved in any of the renovations to the building back in 1983? No, I wasn't. Okay. Yeah. Because I don't know when that Palladian window went in, but it certainly seems to have a life of its own. Right, I don't recall. I did a study of the building when you did the... When you looked at all the stencils and so on. Oh, okay. That was back probably in the 90s, maybe? Yeah, I think late 90s. Late 90s, yeah. Do you have any photos of what the fireplace room looks like? No, I'm serious. Or exterior photos of that area? No, I'm sorry. You can definitely send those to you. Okay, don't worry. It'll all come back. Yes. And you guys can do another input review when you further along, too. Yeah, I mean, I think this is very preliminary design. It's based on Black River's reading of a year's worth of research with congregation members. It's an omen's plan. I think for me, again, pushing it as far back as possible is key. I think it's a shame that it's so tight to the bottom of the windows. But if it has to be there, then I think flat roof is the way to go. I think separating it out through a different material is probably a good way to go. Really making it not part of it. Not trying to blend it is probably the better way to go. Yeah. But it would be ideal to push that further back. And I know you like the fireplace from windows, but maybe they can come up with a creative way to keep the windows and still have it located. Maybe that becomes a circulation area that is still open to a corridor or whatever. So you're not getting natural light, but maybe you're still getting light coming through. Just to note to everybody about the currently the open space between the kitchen and the Riverside Edition. For site plan purposes, we might want to try and keep some of that because right now where all the garbage and everything is is behind the building, but still completely viewable from the river and being able to hide that and mechanicals and stuff in that alcove is a good thing if at all possible. Even if there's a fence there to buffer it from the neighbors. But for site plan purposes, I think we'd rather it there. And for flood plan purposes, we'd rather it there than right adjacent to the river. So it's not there now. It's not. No, there's not. There's just green space there in that back here. This is where we have all our trash receptacles. And it's very narrow. It's very narrow back there. Yeah, straight off the river. Yeah, that's a good point, Meredith. I feel like the space could be made sort of a little more a little more continuity if this concept of this pergola also passed, you know, the same elevation passed through those same buildings that then allowed. You could still have the trash and recycling and still keep the light, but at least these kind of lines. And it just doesn't feel like weird dead space. Right. Right. Yeah. So that those are tied together all the way across. Yeah, the same elevation. If we were to try and, I'm actually not sure if that's, but if we were to try and push this back, yeah, it would really require a relocation of that palladium window. And I think even, you know, we could still keep the fireplace room with its ambiance that's there, but relocating that window. I'm not sure exactly how that would work. So maybe the window stay and you put some really nice, like daylight on the other side. It's just shining through the window. Except that they were talking about not having any windows in the kitchen because of ventilation and other issues. So that we'd be able to have room for all the equipment in the kitchen. So you're saying if you push the kitchen back here, but there was still some sort of, I'm just talking. Yeah, no, actually, you leave the window there and put a window well, a light well behind it. Yeah, I just put some LEDs that have natural, natural light effects. 2700 K. Something like that. That window has a curtain on it. I mean, a gauze curtain all the time. So yeah, that's definitely a consideration we hadn't thought about. Make it seem like it's outside. Make it seem that way. But if you have circulation through here, then conceivably, and it's a one-story space, right? So you could have skylights through here if you're having circulation come through. Yeah, just what are you looking at when you're looking out through here? If we move the kitchen down, is that... The kitchen would be on the other side or just be purely for circulation. Oh, we hadn't... Oh, I hadn't even considered that. Aha. So you're thinking a hallway of some kind back there. Then you can throw in skylights, light up there. Yeah, and we could use that as an element that takes this mass and separates it from the existing building. So probably narrow your kitchen a bit because they don't have a whole lot more room to make that kitchen stick out further because of the setbacks. Well, it widens out, I think. Because this... Right, right, right. So as we... Yeah, so if we were able to do that, that would give us a lot more flexibility. Yeah. Functionally, I think we'd have to talk to the kitchen people about how that might work. But it might provide them with more flexibility in terms of where these openings happen. And then pulling... So then you're saying pull this back behind this line. So that you're kind of behind this right now? Yes, yeah. Yeah, I think these windows, don't they line up with the windows upstairs? Yeah, right, right. So that's why this doorway is actually shown in the existing window, which is below this one. But they're saying pulling it back beyond this one. That certainly would de-emphasize the massing towards Main Street. Great. Because Black River is still helping you with this? Not right now. We're trying to... We're at the construction process subcommittee, so we're trying to take the plans and just massage them in a way that we think is going to work a little bit more efficiently. But the intention is that they would produce at least presentation drawings, of course. What do you think you could take all of those ideas? Yeah, I know. I think those are some good thoughts about... What's your feeling about this wall here being blank or better blank than having some small punched windows in it? The one towards Main Street? I'm with Seth, but I really like the departure from... The rest. From the rest. Okay. And whether that is windows or even whether it is a stone facade or something. Mm-hmm, okay. But I could see it being blank. Green wall. Yeah. Green wall. Yeah. I just thought of that the other night. It was... Except wintertime is tough. The landscaping proposed in front of it, if the plants get up to a certain height, there's going to be very little of it exposed anyway. Exposed. That's right. That's right. So in some ways, we could get the plants closer to it as a shield. And it also depends on how successful that pergola can be in front of it. Yeah. Yeah. Because without the pergola, it really... Is a problem. But I think that it's really nice as an exterior seating and space for just people to be around the church. I think that's nice. And potentially the public to be at the access to it as well. Yeah. Yeah. Good luck with your continuing... Thank you. ...the involvement of your plant. Thanks so much. Thanks for that option. Yeah. So-called, yeah. It's a... So, I don't know if you want to just mark these plans as draft or preliminary or something. Yeah. I mean, it's on the agenda and everything. It's just... I don't know if there's a date on these. Oh, all right. Yes, 1016. Yeah. Just to note that those are very common here. Okay. Thanks very much. Okay. Thank you for coming as everybody had a chance to look at the minutes from June 3rd and July the 8th. So, just to note that the June 3rd minutes had been looked at previously, but I was asked to go back and confirm that the 101 Northfield Street conditions of review were correct. So, I've also pulled and included in your packet the actual recommendation form. What's in here is exactly what's stated in the recommendation form that was signed off on. Okay. So, Liz and myself were the three here for the meeting. Do you have any questions, suggestions, changes that you see? I feel like I'm the one that brought that up. Mm-hmm. And it is what it is. Yeah. It is what it is. It's... I mean, I know that there was discussion in the actual discussion that might have been free still differently. Yeah. So, what ended up on the recommendation form is what I ended up reflecting in the minutes. Yep. Okay. Sounds great. It sounds good. Do I hear a motion to approve? So, move. Second. All in favor of the June 3rd minutes, raise your hand. About July the 8th. Actually, we need Eric here to approve that. So, we'll have the table at any of the walls and the red film. I... Yeah, sorry. I missed that in proofing. I'll look back at that and figure out what was to actually discuss there. What approves would say is, I like it. How do you waterproof compact? I... yeah, I... Yeah, I don't know how that one got missed. I'll fix that. Fix and return. I guess anybody has. Second. All in favor of adjournment, raise your hand. Meeting is adjourned.