 Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my one and only co-host. It's Tyler. What's up, brother? How you doing? I'm gonna continue to ride that joke forever. Forever. I'm here for it. It will never go away So we all just need to get used to it So we are gonna talk about some ideas that have been sort of floating around where we we're not taking credit for all this This is more some of this is our ideas. Some of this is just reporting honestly and us talking about things That have been around floating around Some from Colonel cabbage some from our good friend a os list labs who I already see in the chat there mr. Sam Morgan so There's been some really really good ideas Been thrown around recently about how we can take this game and continue to grow it How we can push for change in the future and we want to get into it tonight to talk about how we how we continue to make This game better because I think it's great. I think a os 3 is a tremendous amount of fun But why settle but you know the game is good But it can be better. So So I but first the news a news. All right. Let's burn through this. I know we got a lot to cover a rumor engine of course Yeah, it's a 40k thing great Apparently here on black heart. I've been saying that name a lot this week same. Oh, yeah, I don't I don't first thought Go ahead and I saw it get claw like that was and then I you know died looked at it a little more closely probably not first off Like we can all dream second off If it is like you're on black heart if this is a man-sized person which I you know it probably is it's he's he's a relatively I mean he's a space brain-sized person, but whatever If that is that let me tell you what right now Buy that rip off the space brain head pop on a scaven head boom New arch warlock ready to rock right because yeah the claw the flamethrower. It's got everything you need It's got everything you need. It's right there Okay, so What do we got next under world's roadmap? Yeah, I'm gonna have to jump to this I didn't organize my actually do you mind if we talk about spider guy next I'm gonna have to do this in a slightly different order, so I'm not jumping 50 pictures. I apologize Let's talk about spider guy man spider cast guy spider cast guy does whatever a spider cast guy can Which I don't know what that is What do you think of this dude? I like him. Yeah, he looks pretty sweet any guesses on who the heck this is a Living nightmare something that haunts my dreams Yeah, like this is horrendous super cool, you know they mentioned somewhere using Using like work fry and underworlds and things like that to the the ancillary games To explore the corners of the mortal realms that are to give us fakes for things that we'd never necessarily get Entire armies for or that we wouldn't likely get armies for I would never say never in AOS And whatever this thing is. Yeah, cool I'm sure all the spiderfang players are very sad because as soon as everybody heard spider stuff. They were like yay Finally our time has come. Nope Nope Forget it Still holding out hope that that rumor will be true We're gonna get a new big spider kit that that was one of the rumors that we'd seen in that big dump Which not all of which have been accurate in the succeeding months, but one can hope what if this guy leads chaos goblins? Like I feel so Mean we don't see enough you see a lot of chaos humans, which is the most boring type of chaos, right now Human chaos most boring type Rat chaos best type obviously somewhere in there somewhere in this area is like beast Chaos also interesting right But and then like we've gotten a little taste of elf and dwarf chaos and we suspect there's more dwarf chaos coming But where's my work or goblin chaos, you know, none of these guys ever just uh Get get to get attracted to fall into one of the dark gods machinations. You know, I don't know seems like they could Strong, yeah I can see that brood master. I was looking up this guy's name. Yes the eight who is the eight fold watcher I know they refer to that in the video Oh Yeah, no digging it. We've got I know we got warmer day coming up. I think October 30th So we're gonna get a big preview. Hopefully it's part of that. I suspect we'll be half to doing a show. Yes Get ready Marty. Yeah, exactly Exactly All right So next up in my little picture thing is in the scenery where we got the little video by the way for this spider guy Or sorry in the video where we got the spider guy We also got some cheeky pictures of some new scenery that I have put here I saw that tonight, man. So It's it's on screen now for everybody so they can see it It's pretty interesting little kind of cagey like literally cages type stuff or something Kind of looks iron works and such. Yeah, it's neat neat looking scenery from the little snippets We've got so Cool, I mean it would make sense Say it definitely has the slaves of darkness Beringard field to it, which one would you know, that's very appropriate based on what we've seen so far with red harvest Yeah, yeah, exactly. I I mean it makes sense new war cry equals new Terrain to go with it right that's they love putting terrain in war cry boxes. So, okay Good stuff. I like it Another rumor is we're gonna finally get the box or boxes for the cast knights and cast warriors So maybe that's gonna be part of this. Oh, I dreamed a dream Yeah Boy, oh boy. I mean like look they're great I have a bunch of them because I bought two of those starter boxes. So I was like set I've got you know, ten new cast nights and 20 new cast warriors like I'm I'm lock stock ready to rock got my two lords on Kargadrak No issues, but I understand not everybody might want to make that decision and so, you know It'd be cool if those kits were individually available What's next? All right, so next up now I have the Herod Ebrode map. Okay, so sorry, this was all in a weird order The hair I will endeavor in future times to make the news order match my pictures in the order They're downloaded and set up into these slides So we know we've got Herod Deep and Q4 coming out here Did it pre-release it pretty released last Saturday? Yeah, that's right We got the scrolls in the app if you updated your if your app can update You have the scrolls in the updated app kind of interesting all the little the stormcast dudes are they're kind of interesting as a matter of fact Yeah, it seemed like there's an effort to make them more. Yeah compelling playable. Yeah I took a quick quick skin this morning when a couple. Yeah, and yeah, both of them pretty cool Yeah, they've got the cruel boys. I think they're like do it 270 points and or 240 points and 170 points Is that right 240 for the stormcast 170 for the More on there. Yeah, maybe 265 something. Yeah 170. I think for the cool boys. Yeah, it's in that area Don't quote me. I don't I didn't I didn't internalize those costs. Yeah, I apologize everyone but Um, you know like all the stormcast dudes are damaged too with their melee weapons the big hammer guy is damage Three with his hammer rend two. That's right. Yeah, because he has basically the annihilator grand hammer So pretty impressive stuff. It could be a nice little fun, dude I I'm I'm pretty pretty stoked We got a little picture of a parrot and then we got a picture of a new warband coming in Q1 is This the pirates That that we've been that we've been seeing probably Probably so we all wanted a full pirate army. Nope. We're just gonna get a A pirate war cry or sorry underworlds apologize Warband which Okay, that's fine You know mid let us hope that that then when they when they see the overwhelmingly popular Response to it They're like, you know what? We need to make this into a full army and that's we can backdoor in the pirates. So let's hope so I Don't know man I feel like we've seen enough of these are moringians to think that we might actually be getting this You know ray fleets. We've seen some night haunts My might be getting something. That's not just a warband. Yeah We'll see. I mean, here's what's gonna know when when we eventually get whatever these figs are Right when we see the images of them we're gonna be able to go back and do like Warboss Kurgan's gonna do the the rumor engine match-up that he does every week and And and like if we don't fill all the pirate things that are still clearly piratey Well, then maybe some of them are new units of man-eaters or some of them are an actual pirate army or whatever You know, who knows Or maybe the new warband will be ogre man-eaters. Maybe that's how they'll backdoor in new man-eaters. Who knows right could be And then we've got another new warband. That's just lightning, which is like, okay There's an obvious guess but hopefully it's something a little more compelling Well, hopefully it's not storm got another storm cast second. They're the ones that have lightning the most common, right? so But we'll see we'll see Yeah exciting Talking about the war bands. I found the images Dude like there's some Legitimate profiles and the storm cast unit like the storm call of bows got 24 trains three attacks two threes minus two Ren two damage broadsword when it's range five attacks three threes minus one two damage great hammer three attacks Three threes minus three two damage both stave two tech That's not it's interesting, but like that's pretty awesome for yeah, I don't know. I'm intrigued by this warband Yeah, and I was hearing some cool boys players already throwing in The warband into their list. I've seen that going around on Twitter today for yeah 170 and 265 Thanks to ever did that in the comments. Yes Yeah, like I see a lot of people hoping for for thunder scorn for dragon ogre warband like I don't buy it To I don't know how those fit into Underworlds, but hey like I said, you know keep hope alive I guess maybe just two of them or something. I don't know Maybe like a thunderstorm scorn guy like a dragon ogre and a couple beast dudes stick to besticore I don't know. I'm not sure what that warband looks like I think that's a great guess. Yeah dragon ogre. So I love that sure that's that they are the other lightning people I guess sure So I mean it's it's a pretty weak theme for a weak subsection of a weak army, but sure and Yes, I'm directly calling out all of you thunder scorn lakers. That's a direct call out. That is I'm speaking to you personally So, you know, no, it's fine I mean obviously the Minotaur's are like the coolest part of the beast of chaos army have and always will be Minotaur's forever So at any rate I would love to see a roadmap like this for a OS But I understand given the way the world is right now They're pushing stuff all over the place, which we'll talk about in just a second with our next news item. I suspect Man I'm intrigued by hero deep like this first time and actually interested in Underworlds particularly with this whole Somebody mentioned a while back that this whole rivals deck format had already existed, you know that they create these pre decks And so I guess in one of the news segments we I Like this was a brand new thing just to me I'd never heard about it before, you know, I thought you were just playing the game of if you want to play competitively or whatever You'd have to Keep building your deck and buying cards and so on and so forth. Sure. Anyhow, yeah, I'm really intrigued by by this might pick it up Yeah, I mean Underworlds is not I'll be honest with you Underworlds is not my game I love these warbands. They're great painting projects But to me like war cries a game I can get down on that just reads right for me. I love playing war cry Underdeep or Underworlds a heredity and Underworlds in general. Just I don't know Just doesn't grab me But I'm happy to see that this game has been going strong and it does have a really solid audience people who love it So it's fantastic And what's next? Well, that's I think all the images I have for this So it's going to be time to talk about the storm cast and cruel boys going on pre-order almost all the rest of them going on Underworlds I have Dan said have you covered off the noticeable shift in price point for Underworlds? We did not I didn't notice that the price had moved that much because I don't know the base price to make a comparative But it wouldn't surprise me Simply because the nature of a lot of those boxes is probably still printed printed in China Are you allowed to talk about the price hikes germ? Sure? I don't care if they made it a lot more expensive That's a shame, but it also doesn't surprise me with a lot of that happening like the box and all the supplementary stuff that isn't two screws of figs being made in China and the like the nature of Shipping being about four to five times as expensive right now Slash all the price of the base materials going up. It wouldn't surprise me that they just adjusted their prices up So Yeah, somebody said Tyler is quiet. Okay. I'll adjust him. I'll fix him Every week. No, yeah, I hadn't heard about that. I didn't notice that that's interesting Yeah, but yeah, I mean it doesn't surprise me, but it's unfortunate right so Yeah, I've been but again I'll take a look at the pricing and then do a comparative and we can talk about it. I mean again. I would source it to real-world Things right like they have a certain margin They have to make on this stuff that they put out and if all their costs go up They're going to move prices up to compensate for margin. So It's pretty standard Getting lord commander Bastion carthalos night relic tour vanquishers the standalone box for vindictors I don't know if that's going to be I'm guessing that's a different box than vanquishers It's not just going to be one box with two alternative kits or two alternative builds We'll see vigilors Need new scouts prey tours the standalone annihilators Which incidentally as everybody would guess bless you excuse me our Extraordinary they do all kinds of damage particularly six of them and then yeah, so you want to chat about dragons Yeah, and then we know the dragons are December. So look I want to just pause and say kudos Thank you GW for being transparent about this they put everything out and They said hey look I Mean they made it a funny joke, of course They can't just ever be straight and say like we had production issues, but like okay you had production issues But fine. I don't care that they didn't give us the explanation. They just said they're delayed till December That's when you'll get the dragons Cool beans no issues. I'm fine with it like understood And I like thank you. That's all I wanted was transparency, right? So I wasn't like waiting every You know waiting every Sunday for the article To see like is this gonna be the week is this gonna be the week? That was me every week right and now we don't okay great and as I said I'm excited They're not out till December because you know what my plan is Tyler yeah, uh Release the dragons and the FAQ at the same time And fix the points on them all at once Easy then nobody complains because nobody's bought them GW. I'm imploring you Fix the points on the dragons at the same time you release them. So everybody makes the right Purchases that's all They said they showed the big dragon and said the big dragons are coming in December They didn't actually confirm the baby dragons, but I assume those will be in the same week assume Somebody's saying that the dictators are gonna be push fits and bankruptures Lors multi-kits. Okay. No Hades if you have confirmation of that. Let us know Yeah So what do you think? I haven't thought about dragon points I mean, I definitely agree with the general conversation that 285 right move them to 325 325 is the correct number It's probably still a little on the low side, but it's fair 320 or 325 will accept either So yeah, that's the right number like to start with if it's still a problem move them up more easy It's fine. Like especially since as we'll talk about in the FAQ they did get pre Nerfed a little I guess sure. Yeah And And then we are getting a few let's see we've got both boys the bucks I've got slitters the box and yeah, that runs out to just couple of missing things for cruel boys We'll be coming out too. Yeah, man. Oh Yeah, that's that Good stuff. And then of course the big thing the last thing Tyler. How could we not discuss this during the news? Don't worry. I see everybody already already Just champing at the bit for this, okay The FAQ for Stormcast and Oryx it's here We finally got it. We got there Eight weeks after the book release, but we got there Okay Tyler, where would you like to begin with this way? Well, let's talk through these hot way Remembering like is it act they were said that they were gonna be doing this monthly, right? Like we get a battle to them and then within a month will get correct. It's supposed to be a month Yeah, four weeks. Yeah, so I was thinking that it was originally two weeks And then they moved it to four weeks and then this one was eight weeks So at this rate, it's like the grains of rice thing next will be 16 weeks And then yes, that is correct of you soren horses don't chomp at the bit They champ that is the correct word it drives me insane when I hear people say chomping at the bit That is incorrect at any rate The So where what's your feelings on this let's let's talk core stuff real quick. All right Tyler is still quiet. Okay. I'm quiet in general guys Now I'm a loud person Tyler's quiet. I'll I'll do what I can here here. I'll fix me a little here, too every week with this Well, the mic's too close to me apparently I breathe heavily into it so the mic out, you know, it's yeah All right, let's try that see how that works now. I'll be too quiet or something nonsense. So whatever we'll see we'll see Core rule stuff. Let's knock this out real quick. Okay Can you do multiple responses if you have the capability to to one unit triggering ie redeploy and unleash hell? Yes, of course great next moving on if I just get to pile in can I also attack for free even though it says I even though it doesn't say the word attack. No, obviously not stop Okay, and of course rules FAQ updates, right? Great. Now. Let's talk about the stuff that matters You want to begin with stormcast? Oh We got the I mean Let's face it guys the expected change to translocation. Yes Hey, I both you and I events We got quite a few games in testing out move after you translocates and it's pretty crazy. Oh It was no, no, it was straight ridiculous Like I was using fulminators on the backside of a translocate like crazy in a bunch of testing and Yeah, it's it's it was too good because there was no hiding from me when I can translocate on a re-rollable to up and Like here comes the pain train. I hope your redeploy roll is really good And right Well particularly with a one-drop, you know where they're hanging out in their deployments you alpha and you pin them in their deployment with this Three up with missing, you know the usual safe stacking that you could do of course, you know pretty reliably because you're potentially gonna be out of Inbind range initially unless you're facing Seraphon, you know, yada yada yada. So yeah, it was just nuts I mean I get The consternation that's out there where folks are like I've been seeing some memes go around like what about Negash's teleport thing and what about this and what about this and you know, what iron jobs can do with my destroyers Like I get it. I mean, I think there's definitely a conversation to be had there I mean generally these things come down to a case-by-case basis just in terms of the power level and this was just but like, you know Two prongs don't make a right, you know, it's just one of those. Yeah, yeah, exactly Ticking off like that guy murdered somebody shouldn't I be able to rob this person? No, that's not how it works, man It's just they're both they both could two things can both be wrong So like I'm happy that it got fixed. It's fine and like it's still a super good prayer Like turns out on-demand teleport that can't be counterspelled and happens on a re-rollable to up still pretty good Still pretty good as it turns out So yeah, that's fine. The other big one was master of the celestial menagerie Now doesn't apply to all monsters Only applies to behemoths So big change there is Star Drake Drake sworn Templar. I'm guessing the tarlan the tarlons. I've got the behemoth words were Else yeah, the key is not the little not the baby dragons. That's yeah, and then Cronus and yeah, as I of course. Yeah. Yeah so good change and Like yep good fantastic It was way too good of an ability to give your entire army neg one to wound like yep And that was it was just such a it was first of all all the storm tracks cast command traits except that one are still garbage And I don't know how they wrote them But garbage might be a bit strong, but not much Great. Yeah, they're they're lacking. I'll say that I'll soften my word to say they're lacking And this one's still pretty good like neg one to wound on your Lord sowson on star drake or your toralon guy Who I've seen showing up in a bunch of tournaments both eventists and the Lord on toralon And I just want to say I was the only one in the stormcast show repping that guy You can go back and watch. I was saying I think he's good and defending him and everybody poo poo'd me Okay, and then guess what he starts showing up at a bunch of winning lists So turns out on demand plus one to hit is a valuable thing Just saying Yeah, good on the storm keep guys That YouTube channel we've been talking about they were right there with you. They were talking a lot about him as well Yes, they were yes, they were Absolutely, that's it's me and the two of them and the people who played those toralons this weekend We're a small elite club of people who recognize that that fig is awesome I Wish there was a way to make somebody a priest. That's this is a stupid thing. It's just for me I wish there was a way to make somebody a priest and And Then I then I could put my my general on that guy and I would be very happy and skate could ride a toralon Which is the monster I always want that's I think it's the coolest monster. I just always have loved him Him and his goofy face Okay The cycle of the storm, I mean I personally expected this to just go back to how we played in 2.0, right? It never should have been different. I Don't understand like I I don't understand. Okay. I don't understand all the confusion around this I'm gonna be honest. I like when I when I played against you Yeah, go ahead The base set so sure it just gives you the equivalent of plus one wounds Yes, so if you have the problem model and you take 13 damage, sorry, you're still dead Right basically just what I mean. Yeah, and that's how we always played it. Okay. Yeah, like Yes Of course, that's how it worked. I do not understand the The attempt to like turn it into something it wasn't it was always a stupid ability It always was it was never going to be anything different It was clear from the wording what their intention was and our attempt to like bisect it into a more powerful ability Like by oh if it happens here and then we reference this step and then blah blah blah blah blah blah Then it can actually work like this and I'm like, no, there's no way it works like that That is that is just insane It's clear what they meant because we've had it for three years where it worked and it was dumb and it's still dumb And I don't understand why they kept it because it was complicated and weak. It was the word. It's the worst quadrant Complicated and low impact is the worst quadrant to be in of the of the four quadrants, right? They could have replaced it with anything But they didn't so whatever. Yes, it works like how we all knew it worked if you were saying so Yeah, I've heard some more debate about Anyway, some ongoing debate today about it just it's kind of irrelevant It's just how it always worked for for better or worse. So yeah And like I'm not I'm not arguing that it's good and I'm not arguing that it should have said or whatever But obviously trying to rule is lawyer it into a worthwhile ability is just the wrong way to go Right like it's it's clearly what it is. So whatever And they explained Yandrosta and other similar abilities, which I hate The whole yeah now that it's simultaneous effects so depending on whose turn it is you get to pick which one is used, right, right. Oh good Yeah, I'm not a fan of that No, obviously, it's silly but like whatever it just means in the turns where Yandrosta has Effect where she has her effect, right? Then effectively in your turns You won't use the command ability because you'd have to use the command ability first since you have priority Then hers would apply on top and reduce it back down, right? And so in most cases what that would mean is you just don't do it I mean if you're a mega garganty, you will because who cares, right like great But if some most most monsters if they take 10 wounds would still basically be at a pretty low profile position So right So, yeah, as somebody pointed out that apparently the tarlan is not a behemoth. So they must be so we've just got the yeah Star Drake's and the two big dragons. Well, there you go. Yeah, I did not realize he wasn't in behemoth. He's just such a big dude Yeah I guess it's just a big horse in the end So there you go. I Think that was it for I mean there are a couple of other cleanups with storm cast and I hear no there Yeah, a little lot lord aquilore got the grift charger keyword and The proper addition of all the keywords to the mount trade section. Yeah Yeah, all fine all fine Good stuff, let's get to the real story of the show battle tome iron jaws battle tome iron jaws We can just boot these other two idiots out of the book and get back to the real army And yeah, this is it's a good day to be an IJ player. Maybe too good Frankly, I'm trying to temper my excitement here and step out of myself, but it's really hard because I really love this army You know this whole it was hard mode identity like that's just Claim I'm very aware that that's not applying right now. It's applying iron jaws like definitely breaking that you're not playing hard mode If you're playing iron jaws right now, well, it's still a very yeah It's still a very like you don't have all of the answers, right? Like you do see you are still a melee focused army that fights fair warhammer. You're just like the fastest thing in the universe Most destructive army on the table right now. Yeah, it's and God is it good. Okay Basic stuff. Let's fly through it. Does crag knows benefit from allegiance abilities. No, obviously not cool beans Does the does the marsh crawl a slogoth have the cruel boys keyword? Yes, obviously, of course That's why he's in the book. So did you mean for this guy to not be used in this army and only be a gets model? No Okay, cool the change to Skull shaking bellow and the voice of gork and all of that Basically the multi command so I do not love this change. Okay Like strong It's really strong and I do not like how they decided to structure this it's the they like they made a bad choice here Okay, it's more powerful But even I an iron jaws stand through and through Right must admit this was the wrong choice. So of course we have two levels here We have the baseline level that There was the question of are we gonna get a true three for one with all the commands? Yep, we did and then we have this new level. So on the base level, what do you think should we have gotten that? No more more no, it should have worked for the ones you can do three for one like redeploy like Unleash coming off Gordrack in big wall with Um Bolt boys, you know like What else like the like mighty destroyers right things that are obvious where you can just use them all at once It's clear that it was intended for it. No problem, right? The charge ability out of the charge command out of iron suns was a great one for it, right? Yeah, like it didn't need to be all out attack and all that defense was also three for one It the first of all, that's silly good Um Secondly, they didn't work timing wise quite clearly With the way the ability was triggered Right because yeah, we had this I see Bryce one of my friends. We had this discussion locally Yeah, over weeks and that was the general consensus we had is that the way the rules were worded you should not be using it For specific commands like all out attack a lot of fans Yeah, yes, like if you've taken a philosophy 150 logic or philosophy 250 symbolic logic course in your life You should be able to dissect that sentence to be an if then Trigger right if this situation then you may use this thing on this unit, right? Again, not super complicated So it obviously didn't work under the old system. So what instead they chose to do was rewrite the rule I will now read the new rule This unit can issue the same command up to three times in the same phase If it does so each command must be received by a friendly iron jaws unit No command point is spent the second and third time this unit issues that command in that phase What sit before because you could just trip one out right What that meant was that? Everybody had to be in range that one time Right and it didn't meet triggers for like all out attack and all that defense Now what it means is you can be like mighty destroyers on myself. I move Mighty destroyers on this unit that was way far away. They do their thing That you teleported Previously in that hero phase. Yep. Yeah, which that was one of the healthy probably limitations prior to this Yeah, so it's like I teleported unit across then I might destroyers myself now I mighty destroyers them Okay, now they move then I fastened then I mighty destroyers this other unit over here Okay, so I can just be like bouncing around the board still end with a completely reasonable charge Right, my last one could swing me into like three inches and yet I've I've what I've effectively done is broadcast these commands Like over a 40 inch bubble It's just unnecessary Right like it doesn't need to work like that and people are going to start You know when we did our npe survey There was a pretty good contingent of people who didn't like alpha striking And iron jaws is alpha strike the army right And look, I love how hard they hit it feels so much fun to play this army And melee alpha strikes are always going to be more fair than shooting alpha strikes period right because melee alpha strikes Can be chaffed melee alpha strikes you have to risk your pieces You still have to put them into the enemy line You can lose them you can roll bad and then they're in a precarious position Right shooting alpha strikes always the worst and should be very very very hard to achieve and should be generally Made worse from where they are right now On the difference we've had this conversation for a while now that 3.0 I think is the most anti Alpha strike oriented addition that we've had right because there's a lot of tools you have in response to it Yeah, like I've been My friend Dan keeps performing a Jedi mind trick on me and getting me to alpha him every time we play even though At the last game was the last time I was ever going to try to alpha him again and every time it's failed miserably So I've yet to have one like meaningfully successful alpha with an iron gels army But anyway, because you can chaff you can redeploy you can unleash hell You can find a shower you can all out defense like there's a lot of protection against it, right? Yeah pigs pigs can roll terribly because they're really apparently really bad I've never had it happen, but I'm sorry to see that you have you need to get better pigs Um, maybe as I told you tyler the problem is that orcs work on the wall Which is a psychic belief in themselves and you don't believe in them Hence they don't work for you if you start believing in them. They will roll really well. See it's that easy try harder. Gotcha indeed Um, anyways, it's the wrong change, but it's how it is now. So okay great It's a super it went it was already an incredibly powerful ability and now we just like ramped it up It's it's one of the best printed abilities in the game period So like top five abilities in the void that exist in the game The only things that go over the top of it are like single model, you know cheater nonsense Like kairos or bellicor or the demon prince of corn, right? Like these are the few things Yeah, thank you for saying it. Yeah, I mean, that's Honestly, bloodslick round is once it top five the full top five one through five is bloodslick round Everybody knows that we need to fix that Everybody knows it. It's fine. We got it out. I'm done control has to exist to counter red deck winds and that and iron jaws is definitely red deck winds um All right, and then the other big change the one no one saw coming here It is smorgasbund yelling at us to talk about this Uh What okay, so oric gore grunt has jagged gore hackers Went from three attacks threes threes neg one one damage Which was a perfectly good profile that I was happy with and used I did use the gore hackers Because I wanted the mortal wounds on a two up And didn't mind it for the one attack Uh, get off me. Get off me marty. I did my thing here and now It's threes threes three three attacks threes threes neg two rend one damage Age clearly we all needed for A 15 wounds what it would be like 130 wounds for 300 points Uh, we needed more damage. So I have a table for you here. Tyler. I did get this out I forgot I had this picture made. Here we go, Tyler I have this handy dandy chart people might be asking vince How much damage do gore gruntas do when gore gruntas grunt? So here I have a comparison of six gore gruntas. I am assuming that all six gore gruntas Uh attack which might be a bit of a stretch Um because it's often hard to get all six in but such as life You're talking it's often it's five riders and four pigs but with the jagged gore hackers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'm going to do this with the math of all six and we'll just imagine that that can happen Okay, you're in like the weird uh triple Formation, you know, I'm talking about like the two out and the one in and the two out and the one in Let's assume you do that So here what I have them on Is the plus one damage I don't agree with the chart that I saw going around Because it was like here's what they are with all the buffs and I'm like no no no no no That's too perfect, right? Like we can't assume you get all the buffs. That's just not how the game works Right terrorist activity that was going on. I think there's some terrorist activity Indeed like you can't assume you get all the buffs. Yes. Sometimes that will happen But like relying on a spell cast that's a hard spell to cast the spell cast on an eight for god's sakes Okay No, like no I'm not I'm not calculating that in this calculation Is with plus one to hit because I'm assuming you all out attack the unit Okay I'll be in hunters So, but sure whatever like let's we can all out attack is automatic assuming they haven't been roared, right? So we can it's often enough that we can assume Especially now that I can three for one all out attack. So, you know Okay And they have the plus one damage from the war chanta because again, that's an automatic buff, right? I can just look at somebody and go Plus one damage. Okay, so auto buffs So that's six gore gruntas which cost you 300 points going up against four fulminators Which are themselves a chuchu train of destruction They are the japanese bullet train of death And uh who cost 460 points And there is your damage comparison, right? You can see it right here Against a four up save the gore gruntas will do 31 damage on average and the fulminators will do 39 I'm rounding up Meaning that the fulminators will flatline a mega gargant with their spit even if he uses all-out defense pretty good The gore gruntas Will uh, we'll need to work a little harder to get him there. Um, if he doesn't have all-out, they will get him as well Assuming they can get all six in So, um pretty good. Of course, we have a 60 point difference 300 versus 460. Yeah So, yep But they are both now finally worked me very hard hitting units very fast Very mobile very hard hitting units Um, I mean, I would point out that the fulminators are considerably have more utility like they have a better ranged attack They have a better move slightly. They have a better, uh, save right like Like there are things So, you know, it's it's an interesting comparison between the two. Um, I bet my man I mean my honest answer is I I think gore gruntas are too good now for their points and I don't like it Like At 150 points, they're just too good. It's with neg to rent packed on there at the at the speed they can be delivered And now with this combo You know, how we're going to describe combo chaining the sequencing with mighty destroyers where you know previously There was a healthy limitation we talked about with you teleport Six pigs across the board way away from your mighty destroyers You've got a real choice, you know, am I going to mighty destroyers by my cabbage? Or is it just going to be the pigs themselves? My destroyers to get that, you know deploy outside of 12 move nine cool. Now I got a three inch charge Yeah, now it's like you can potentially sequence that and get the best of both worlds, right, right. Yeah So and I mean, you know I see noob said coherency is tough on the piggies. I I don't agree like I've played them a bunch six piggies I haven't had a coherency issue like it's because one dies Pretty fast. Like they're five wound dunes out of four up save It's not hard to like one will just get killed and then I'm in easy coherency mode immediately like and then I'm just whoop Here we go in the pipe five by five, right like just ready to rock Um, but until then you can just run with the little You know flower formation or puppy paw print or something like that and generally get away with it just fine Um, I never had an issue maneuvering six around I I've always I've said since the very beginning six things like that are completely worth taking Because you're going to lose one like you you do this game stuff dies That's just reality, right? So Who cares if you're at six and you instantly fall to five you're a winner, right? So I mean both of these units are really really good And you know, I understand I am buffing them here with other units, right? Like the the gorgon has have to have the chanter there as well to reach this, right? So it's not as though it just like 300 points is a bit of a misnomer, right because you're you do have to have the chanter available and you do have to make the decision to um To you do have to make the decision to then apply that bonus to them which of course you're going to but um They are not very brave martin. So yes, you could do your little stupid thing with your stupid cathilar in that stupid army um Guys, everybody. I mean that's bravery is a real issue with iron jobs like that. It's definitely one of the ways you can reign the men Um, like flesh eater courts with their screams. Yeah, yeah battery court. Yeah, like that could do some serious work It does it really does it's a thing um But you know, I'm afraid they're slightly too good at 150 with that neg two rents because of the mobility Be that they have because of the calling the wall they go to neg three rent And like that is that turn they are crazy crazy um So, you know, I I've always liked pigs because they're cheap Like they do what they do and they can you can layer buffs and do damage, but the advantage to them was they weren't expensive um so, yeah um, we'll see you know like My sneaky suspicion is they will go up points and that will make me sad Like I if you ask me would I rather them be more expensive or would I rather they just keep the neg one rent? I'd just keep the neg one rent honest answer it was definitely yeah, it made I think the comparison or the Whether to choose brutes or pigs a little more compelling like now Like oh god pigs are just so attractive with their mobility. Obviously brutes do still have the Canceling out one-win models on objectives. Yeah. Yeah model that they're within three inches of which is amazing potentially amazing I mean situational, but I think they're still play for brutes and my god, I mean we've talked about how incredible they are And they've been the I love roots the main Yeah, it's a it's a real like brutes are incredible. No, no diggity. No doubt, right? Like yeah So the unit of ten one-shot Archeon last week, which is cool. So yeah I mean look, I'm not gonna lie. I'm gonna be playing the heck out of my pigs. I got a dozen pigs hot and fired up ready to go so So that's gonna happen But yeah on the fact I mean generally everything that we expected not to open a can of worms We don't have to talk about it. I mentioned to you, you know, there's been some debate about the whole holy command Commandability and whether we can use more than one and there's been different reads on that I was I'll just say led to believe sources that Only supposed to have one holy command Per army list per, you know, 2000 points. You're not supposed to be able to double the enhancements I don't know why I couldn't take it Oh, so we don't have to get into it, but to me that still needs clarity Yeah, I kind of raised a little bit of a ruckus on twitter about it just to try to I was just trying to make the point that like look Seeing clearly this other interpretation Of where people clear many people think clearly that you can use an extra enhancement slot Second holy command So I think it would be a really good fact to get clarity one way or another like I don't really care Like I don't care if they if they stop it But yes, like I would read it all Miles answer is yeah, of course you can And and it's like I don't know that it's the best choice. That's really fighting for some tough space right like with You know going up against a second artifact or a or or your Multi prayer slot usually is is your two things in stormcast that often have extreme value. So You know, whatever Okay, cool. Yeah on Translocation like I mean, I think it's like it's a good change I still feel like stormcast is going to be really strong in this matter. Obviously, they have some very standout units Which we've had a lot of discussion in the community around but yeah, it's a fairly deep bench I mean it could be deeper with with some point adjustments to certain heroes in particular But yeah, like stormcast is going to be fine. Yeah, I agree and by the way, yes I I agree with I agree with toe for strudel and And Anthony right that like yeah, you can take more than one but not the same one. Sure. Yeah, that's yep That would be enhancements. So like Yep Sounds right to me I I like I don't know how anybody else has read it another way without doing mental gymnastics. So that's fine Yeah, it would take too long to get into it. So we can we can skip it. But anyhow Sounds good. I like skipping it Uh Because that brings us to the end of the news. Let me time stamp that Uh All right. So with that Let's go to some pick of the week So quick two quick ones iron jaws. We're talking a lot about them. Uh, I want to give a shout out to just play. So Richie and Jim are playing tomorrow They've been doing some great battle reports on their channel. They have one last week with tom Unfortunately, tom failed to give us any new memes. I was very disappointed in that but tom was playing his stunts Against gyms Of mancunian carnage list, I believe the yeah that he went 50 with negash and blood knights Say white king on steed. Uh, very strong list. Yeah, that was great bad rep. But yeah, they're playing iron jaws versus lumenath So rich rich he's taken basically the double cabbage list. Thanks. Bookcaster knew I've been able to run recently cabbage to chew leader Brutes two by three pigs two by five boys Amazing list. It's like 1980. I think it comes out to iron sons And then yeah, Jim is running a really good lumenath list, you know technically kind of the somewhat of the usual, you know, like 40 some sentinels Techlists, etc. So yeah, I think it would be a good matchup. Yeah, I that's very exciting. I haven't got to watch it yet But I'm looking forward to it This thursday. Oh this thursday. Okay. Sorry. Yes. I've always thought that explains why I haven't watched it yet I saw you shoot me the link and I was like, I didn't how did I miss this? But okay, good Well, that explains how I missed it Um, let me answer a few quick questions. Mr. Chase says sorry take two of what is holy command a storm cast thing. Yes It's a unique enhancement in the storm cast eternals thing. It's how they get their command abilities It's the only source of command abilities outside of the core rules And then mr. Hadrian said do you get the first holy command for free? Yes Because you the core rule state you get to pick one of each enhancement type that you have access to For free. Okay. So there we go Uh Back to you tyler your second pick. Yeah. Yeah, so I checked if you guys mentioned it last week Leo did an amazing iron jaw show, you know, we talked a lot about it With rob and the honest war gamer Just going into incredible depth about the the power of battle tome iron jaws It's fantastic excellent slideshow. So yeah, if you're curious to like really get into the niggardy details Of how this army can play what it can do It's excellent information. So yeah props to leo and rob for what they did there really good I agree. It was a great episode and uh, yes, uh linked in the chat below Uh, my pick of the week is going to be our good buddy, sam morgan at the aos list lab In his newest episode 10, which is all about many things. We're going to be talking about tonight Uh, and I won't give too much away. I will just say you should definitely watch it He talks about the state of the meta and make some really interesting points Not all of which I agree with here, but he I understand where he and darin are coming from But it was a really really good Sort of investigation and he prompted me to a lot of thought Uh, which is honestly the best thing I can ever say about a video when I watch it I'm like, wow, you know, I that gave me a lot to think about and mull over So it's it was a plus a plus video. So Um, it is linked below It's been a great week for those that kind of content. It really has been Uh, and that's hence why we're doing this tonight. Just trying to we're trying to jump on that train Or call us the caboose. We're the we're the thought caboose pulling up the rear Uh, okay, let's move to some uh, let's move to some hobby time Uh Yeah, quite a few games in yeah, I was telling you about the We had a kera dron versus suns matchup. It's one of our we've only got really one active kera dron player So we finally got a game against suns. It was the two war stomper kraken breaker You know pretty common list that we've been seeing out there And I think he had two frigates some number of engine rigors two by ten thunders warp lightning vortex Some other things, but you know, not not a bad list didn't have the ironclad like it wasn't the full blown You know traditional type ironclad type list, but pretty good output And he god he really struggled to pass the dps check in that game. Yeah I was just like I hadn't heard a whole lot about suns versus ko in the community So I was kind of curious to see how that goes But they were playing the vice which was also tricky for him with how that mission works in terms of how that list is designed Like, you know, I told you it's designed to drop off thunders on objectives. They're pretty tanky good output 10 bodies it's minus one to hit etc But yeah, it's kind of hard to do that in the vice obviously, right Yeah, I mean here's the problem with an all shooting army like them and and them doing damage, okay When you have ranged power projection You have to be very careful about how you let The damage be done, right? Because against a normal army that relies on some amount of overlapping synergy buffs That's traditional mixed arms force Right You're going to generate x amount of damage And that damage can generally be put onto pressure points in the enemy army to remove them The buff pieces the critical units you need to remove whatever Right And if you pass that check of removing those key pieces You will often have a very competitive game and can put yourself into pole position to win Right That's how ko play against Most armies. That's what tom did at nashkon, right? He was always looking for like, what are the pressure points? right That's what christian was saying. I asked him about what we were learning from that game That was exactly more or less exactly one of the points of feedback that he gave is that in every other matchup he's experienced Will to essentially do what you just said you couldn't do that against ones Correct because there is no difference The four suns matchup has no pressure points, right? Like there's one, you know, you don't touch Which is whatever giant has the amulet of destiny right But then beyond that it doesn't matter like whoever you shoot at is just going to put up defensive shields right they're going to shields up immediately and So or you know, you don't shoot it like the mystic shielded guy Who's probably also the guy with the amulet of destiny, right? So that that dude is just off limits But other than that, there's no weak spots. It's just four equally well three equally tough walls of meat and then one wall of like You know thick steak, right? and that's it And so the challenge is if you make them pass the dps check easily or even quasi easily to kill suns Right, then most other armies they will just dominate Because if they can do that kind of damage to a single target, then regular mixed arms forces just get leveled right So it's a real challenge This is why an army like both ko and suns are two of the hardest armies to actually balance because they both push on like what the system can tolerate in exactly the opposite directions right uh Like the the baseline assumption of the system when it's written is that you have some mix of units That are filling different roles that are of different values to remove right and the These go in the two opposite directions of that right Where not and by the way, not all those units can do damage or or can push can project that power This is an army of all power projection against an army of no pressure points and weak points Right Yeah, so I mean that might be something we get into a little later with with suns and everything and yeah I mean I I've been it's been weird writing lists and 3.0 where I feel the need to Have an answer to suns for obvious reasons. They're the dominant You know percentage wise arm in the game and they really present, you know, they really skew things They're a very powerful force skewing the field right now. This is a little small, but I'm gonna make it bigger Yeah, this is from rob. Thank you rob. We stole screenshots from your show first credit to rob the honest wargamer and the Owen Jackson for an awesome aos stat show, which I will also link below. It was great Um, but if we if we just take a look here Um, sons of behemoth are in fact the top Uh army in the meta at 8.2. So there you go Okay That's for a good on the coordinator. We've had this conversation And brant. Thank you. I appreciate that man so yeah the Oh, it's we've seen like msu range, you know your point on the difference between msu Melee versus msu range, right like bill's list. Yeah has The ability to have an answer without passing a traditional dps check, right as that's the obvious Yeah pressure point you focus on when you're writing writing lists, which leads to having more List with these big single activation hammers And so one thing i'm curious to test out going forward Is in stormcast in particular melee msu to see how viable that is Because you know, I think it's super viable super viable We're gonna do it We're gonna do a show about this in the future on just kind of general tactics and how to beat every army I know what week that's going to be i'm very much looking forward to it given our guests and I am going to talk a lot about MSU in general and melee msu specifically Because I think there's a lot there All right, but let's stick to hobby time and keep rolling. Um my hobby time We'll come back to the awesome stats put together by rob and the stats center My hobby time so I finished Uh my second to last fig he's over there done which was my fulminator And then this weekend tom came up And we worked on a project we worked on our display board And that display board Is this right here, which is now up on the screen for everybody to see we did this over two days Tom ended up leaving before it was done and I finished it up took about another four or five hours after tom was done I would say all told this is about 50 hours of work that I did in prep and then over the weekend Um So this was uh, this was just us working from like like I took my wife To the airport saturday morning because she was going on a trip with some friends I got back to my house at 9 a.m. Tom was there Okay, he was waiting in my driveway And I he walked in we started setting stuff up plotting out specific stuff and then it was just Work work work work work. So this is our city. This is the entrance to the city. This is the front gate Uh, there you can see it from above So we have little floaty floaty islands And this is the city that he has he has an ice forces Uh defend in haish And then there's another shot right there kind of the the normal view But you can see the the floaty islands in the city there That is those are huge by the way those towers That is a to put that in in size perspective. That is a two foot by two foot display board So you can see how tall those towers are being almost two feet tall um So this is the slave board for our armies How's that with some of this polkastro? Uh, yes the the the elven Gate city gate did originally come from polkastro. It came by way of david griffith um So because it's it's it's so big. We only used part of it It's so big. I you you you can't reasonably put it on even like a 44 by 60 table and um And and like utilize it. It's so huge man. It's insane Um, it would work on one like steve's tables where it's sort of you could you could build specific rules around how you interact with it You know, but in generic play. It's just it's just too big um Now some people asked how are you going to transport that? Uh, we all of those buildings and the islands are removable and they all have Like sunk washers in to and pins to set their placement So they sit back into pins which are themselves washered In place so that that way you can you don't like damage anything when you pull or remove them So the doors are separate from the outer wall pieces Which are separate from all the gates come out and then all the islands come out and uh And that can all be then packed up safely and transported So that's how it transports this whole board moving it with everything on here is heavy as all get out. It's insane It's incredible, dude. I mean I know everybody Events has been producing painting videos about nergal And assembling and painting high up terrain I don't know what's going on in your personal life. That's leading to this crisis If I need to come in and check on you or if we need to get kathy more involved It's it's all very weird. Oh, it's fine. Sometimes you got to push yourself, you know, so Uh, it's really just that I can't make every video about painting my rat cast So I have to find other things to spice in there. So I got to go I got to go new directions, you know Um, I did not make any videos out of this. It would have been impossible with it with kind of the way we were working I mean, there was a point for like Six or seven hours in the middle of the day where we were both air brushing like because I have multiple compressors and multiple air brushes And we were just both sitting at different tables We're like air brushing and mass To get everything like to get down base layers on everything and get everything, you know Ready to go before we moved over to brush work. So yeah, there you go. That's the that's the city I'm very proud of it and how it came out. I think we did a Another one of our friends also 3d printed a bunch of stuff for us with with resin So like the gates and the fountains and little pieces like that. So Yeah, so that was my weekend. That's my hobby Joe if he starts a dwarf army, yeah, we should all start making plans for the apocalypse. I agree Uh, there is no chance zero chance of that happening. Worry not Um, I'm also working on the last Fig of my rat cast for Holy havoc. So the last one. Um, he is in progress. I would say he's maybe Oh, I don't know 40 50 percent. It's coming along So let's call it 40% So, yeah, so a lot of hobby going on Then I still have to do all the bases and make my book and I have to go to The hardware store and make a new transport case and I have to pick up a transport case for this stupid thing We have a when is it? Uh Two weeks Two weeks two days Cool. I have 16 days. Yeah, that's there. Yeah, you're fine. You'll get it We're gonna do some work work work work work. Uh, yeah, indeed All right, so that's hobby time. Um I'm I'm very excited about uh, this tournament. I think it's going to be super fun I'm proud of this display board at one point. I'll tell you a funny story. Here's everybody This is a funny story of how tom and I worked together because tom shows up. We're working for hours on this thing, right? and tom says Well, yeah, you know, then I can I'll I'll use the display board for like maybe if I do a bigger settlers gang army or whatever and I was like Why do you think you're gonna get this display board? Like what what do you think means you have this? I was like, we're both working on this thing. Why am I handing this to you? So we had to work out a joint custody arrangement of who gets it for what tournament? Is it? Uh, since we both worked on it Uh, it's hilarious. So there you go. No, I could see why you would just assume I mean again, you're working on a high elf terrain board. So that's it's a logical assumption on his part Uh, I see it as a city in heish full of weak High elves that thankfully my rat cast were here to protect and defend Right, so luckily for the for all the the little puny elves Uh, the real heroes were here to help them. That's how I look at it All right, so let's talk events do some quick events We just so we've got a lot going on this weekend. We have By the way scott if you're listening scott reid, he's organizing so cal open I'm not sure how we missed that on avis events.org But yeah, scott in the future make sure to get us your events or maybe I should make a note to reach out to you On an ongoing basis just make sure but yeah, so cal open del mar california be a big event Uh, scott reid one of the best toos we have in the states. So looking forward to hearing how that goes Uh, dragonfall gt the french single cup one in a series that they're doing red harvest gt. So Canadian events going on. I know jordan and crew from season of war is going to be attending that one Uh, I got the plug in got to do at least one season war reference every show War on the heartlands dude. Have you been seeing what's going on with this war in the heartlands event in the uk? I know nothing about it and enlighten me. Oh my god Okay, so this is uh mark wildman. Yep, liam jordan and the infamous steve foot Wonderful. I'm excited already. Oh my god. Yeah, like they've been releasing photos of the awards and the players pack Have this the seal players pack that steve has designs And they're gorgeous and then uh, they're working with this group called uh, make skelly leathers I think okay sponsoring creating all this different leather All these awards are made of the leather. So it's like I did see this. Yes Those looked incredible like the bracers and the helmet and stuff. Yeah Yeah, the bourbon helmet and the bracers. Yeah With different themes. So the one of each uh, bracer for the different grand alliance. So, you know, like best destruction You get a an auric insignia on it just like Raising the bar left right in center with this event. I'm so excited to see how it goes this weekend Very nice. That's super cool Uh, I know a couple people a couple friends are gonna be a dragonfall. I think uh, uncle adam's gonna be stopping by there I think uh, sam lens might swing down by day there So I hope a lot of people are gonna have fun this weekend at dragonfall. I'd love to be there but it's sort of uh Not really possible given the schedule to to make my way over to wisconsin But yeah, it looks like there's gonna be like this is a big weekend. A lot of stuff going on All right, so And did we want to touch more quickly on the state of the meta? Uh, yeah, let me I'll flip over and show the november events here real quick as well Just so everybody gets a chance to look at them again a lot of fun stuff coming up in november I'll leave this here so people can come back and reference it You know find the local tournaments in their area if you've got one hit them up Um, obviously, I am excited the most for holy havoc at the beginning of the month as we've already discussed Which is a very narrative teams event, but there's going to be a whole lot of stuff I know there's a lot of people in the northeast really excited about tabois I know tabois is often a really great event and I know there's a lot of people stoked about that So There you go. And yeah, let's do we'll do a little bit of meta talk Just very quickly here. We'll jump over to those pictures. That's why I had these so At the stats center with honest wargamer as well as a y shorts have both put together some pretty fascinating stats So again, thank you to rob and to oh the the Owen Jackson Linked in the every week my wife asks is Owen on the show and I'm like no no. She said yeah Yeah, we'll get Owen back. Don't worry Yeah, yeah, we're all a class by Owen. She doesn't care about me anymore. It's look we can't I mean We can't get the Owen Jackson every week. He's a man in demand, right? it's fair um the Aaron M says renegade open happening november 2021 if it's not on our list Aaron will make sure it gets on there I'm making out Okay, so Um, this is their current data set Uh, it's not a huge number of games, but it's a good number of games to give us directional So this is 3033 matches Sounds like a lot. It's not a lot. I just want to go ahead and put that out there like I mean It's a lot of games if you think about in terms of like one human to play Um, but it's not a lot of actual matches once you start segmenting data Right like when you start looking at just this one army's Number of games and this one army's number of games on this one battle plan Or this one army's number of games on this one against this one other army You get down into non statistically significant data sets really really really fast um But I think at uh, but I but I love that they're putting this together and building this because I think in the Long run this is going to be this will be uh You know something that we can use to do some really good data investigations And uh, you know, I think right now it is certainly it does give us directional uh intuition, um As to like where the state of the meta is right? I wouldn't read this as dictum But I would certainly read this as directional And yeah, luminous sons uh daughters of cane disciples of zinch The legion of the first prince or legion of chaos ascendant slaves to darkness and eyed neth deepken Uh up there in the tops basically Legion disciples of zinch daughters sons and lumineath being the over 55 percent the higher than 55 percent winners So outside the normal middle tolerance, right? But nobody is breaching on the top end of the fat middle Which is something Um, it's not great. We don't want to see that We we want to see like the goal should always be the 55 to 45 percent. That's the actual Good tolerance But you know, as I've said many times, I think in a os we could survive if we had a good fat medal, which was 40 to 60 percent Which is a significant tolerance by the by. I'm really giving it like that's that's being generous Um, I'm happy to see no one busting 60 percent. I am very sad about Skaven bone splitters. I don't count stormcast down there because that's just too much bad data from before they got their book Uh gloom spider and and beasts those are the four that are actually at the bottom, right? Yeah, so only further reinforcing my point that Skaven is the most fair army in Age of Sigmar So you're definitely getting some data to support you on that. I know I saw that they we've we had I think three Two or three four ones in recent weeks weekends with Skaven, which is cool to see But yeah in general they've they've still been struggling a little bit but Yeah, man, like I feel like this generally matches certainly my Sense of the landscape that We do a traditional 55 45, which you and I have always had this debate Like I love the fat middle But there's a massive vote to me with it Which is that the community still needs to be drilling in First and foremost on 55 45 It should always be the goal, right? It did like that should always be what we're pushing toward Right when I say we need to aim for the fat middle. I mean like that should be the minimal accept That's the that's the minimum viable product if you will. Does that make sense? Like there's a distinction between MVP and goal state, right? And that's that's the point So but yeah, I feel like all of these, you know, like luminous suns daughters Zinch will see how it goes here in coming weeks and months What some of the modifications and maybe we've had a little bit of data post-fac Archeon cogs, etc But generally these things match up with my my sense like luminous probably needs to like sentinels are Anyway, we know that like I feel like each of these armies at the top You know, they've got some edges that probably could get smoothed out And that's certainly yeah, like these armies right in the middle that matching up with my expectations KO have some real inherent limitations You know like you go go on down the list So it's that's it's interesting to see that this is certainly matching up with what I would expect And yeah, yeah, I mean, I think they've they've sort of Created this new stat that I quite like which is the positive win rate potential Which is your chance of with the army of going 3 2 4 1 or 5 0 at a tournament And that's really interesting because then suns overtake luminous, right? Where with a 73 percent positive win rate And then so effectively that would to put that another way that would start at 60 percent of your games are 1 Right, that's what a 3 2 is yeah No, if you're if you go 3 2 you won 60 percent of your games That's right. Okay So suns being at 73 luminous again legion daughters slaves Uh, you know kind of down from there The interesting part is that disciples of zinch go fall way down They're the biggest loser when you flip from overall win rate to positive win rate potential Because they go from way up top to to down some Um, and I suspect that's because zinch is also a really easy army to play wrong And to get wrong and to sort of lose and just watch your army crumble Um So it it doesn't surprise me. Um, and then meta representation. Yeah, it's a lot of suns A lot of soul blight sarifon storm cast still big. I only expect that storm cast number to grow honest answer Yeah, man. Yeah, like I could easily only we talked about this would not be surprised to see some growing course of complaining around Storm cast particularly six long strikes and four fulminators obviously I mean like the protectors, you know got toned down a little bit with the How well can you roll nines or you know take a you know Like you have to build a list a little bit more to hit those teleport charges with translocation You don't get to do the ease of button. So but yeah Yeah, I I mean generally like this is still matching up with like what we talked about I I I still feel like this is the best meta we've ever had, you know, all a sequel Yeah, just in terms of the variety that melee is relevant controls relevant mobility is relevant shootings relevant Nothing's really overpowering anything shooting as ways that's being kept in check. Yeah, sentinels are pain long strikes are going to be A hot mess, but you can potentially counter long strikes, you know with other shooting depending on certain situations They unfortunately do have the one drop, you know, we're talking about the one drop combo that you can do right now You can just essentially repeat the one drop stupid storm cast battalion that you could do where you could basically get like 36 shots Uh before your opponent has a chance to go again where you give them top of one You go because you're one drop give them top of one you go bottom of one you double turn them You can basically do the same thing now with the one tap Thunderbolt volley on six long strikes. That's 36 shots So yeah, that's probably and we saw that Matthew Goldsboro's list, you know, he was doing that with six strikes plus three on top Yeah Pretty pretty cool In general a lot of armies that are kind of hanging out there in the middle that yeah good players good list You can really over perform a lot of armies you can do that with right now So and then yeah, we have those sort of clear bottom feeders that we really need to get up. Yeah, but yeah Yep, absolutely. There's there's a lot of people who in the positive win rate potential You know your chances of going three two four one or five one five. Oh boy. Oh boy, uh, you know Skaven blades of corn beasts gloomspite. Mm. That's rough. That's a rough percentage 15 chance It's Seeing slanesh way down there at the bottom does not surprise me the only thing that's pulling that up to 30 percent is like bill Suza's results alone with one Evan Miller as well. Yeah, exactly like the the yeah evan bill and then there was there's one more. I'm forgetting Like there's a very few number of people like that book Tragedy anyways, it's all right. All things come around Uh, time is a flat circle And then finally we'll just take one more quick look at something and then we'll leave this behind Which is to look at this which is the four plus wins count Which is pretty interesting. Uh, so this is Suns still the king at 30 36 Overall in the data set lumineff at 27 seraphon at 25 daughters of 24 So again, uh, soul blight at 22 and disciples of 21 So again, the same usual suspects being strong in the four plus wins category, right? So I said like I've gotten quite a few games and recently get soul blight man. I'm so impressed by that book Soul black rave lords. Whoo. It's it's it is cool. You know beyond like not running There's so much viability in that book beyond like negash or even manford in every list I mean manford is an obvious amazing choice in a lot of cases. Yeah. Yeah That that it is really cool to see a melee army that that's so competitive And it can feel quite impressive to play at times without they get models back and it's I mean, it's very on theme With that army's, you know brand. Yep. Yeah, I mean the The reality is I think this is definitely the most healthy meta we've ever seen We've just got to work on bringing some of these bad Factions up and the problem is they don't make books like that like a book is a very long cycle 18 months 2 years So it's not like we can make a new book now, you know, when we're saying like, oh, this army's bad It's not like they can see that and go. Oh quick rip out a book in three months Like this is not how it works, right? So we have to use some kind of alternative method which is either points changes FAQ war scroll changes, you know something I hope they can recognize these problem Armies and give them some of the love they need um So Yep um So there we go Uh, it so raxias is asking is this four plus in general. It's just four plus in general Yes, I understand your point about submarineing But we can't like that data set gets too small to say anything meaningful about when you try to do that. We don't have a 40k level of data the way that uh that falcon can do the 40k data because we don't have 800 person events going regularly, right? So, you know, we have to we this is just four plus wins. So yes, this is mixing people who are losing in game five Versus people losing in game one a hundred percent true um, okay cool All right with that Tyler we're deep into the show But shall we get to it? That's okay Do it. Yeah, all right on schedule Right on schedule. Let's talk about making aos 3.0 Even better. Hey, if you're watching give it a like Uh, and here's what I'll say one hit that like button Uh, thank you everybody who's watching right now. We really uh Uh, appreciate it. Uh, so hit like subscribe if you haven't already hit all those buttons Just like it says up there in the corner. It's super fun to do that. Uh, and As we're talking through this stuff What I really want is if you're watching live right now Put your thoughts in the comments. I want to see people's thoughts and responses to either what we're saying or your own ideas Uh, so please do, you know engage and give us your thoughts along this stuff because we're going to talk about this in sort of three Kind of sections. I get two kind of main sections are going to govern this And but I would love to hear your own thoughts on on making it even better and, um And if you're watching later on youtube, hi in the future, I hope everything's well there And, uh, make sure that you, uh, drop your thoughts on, you know, things we missed your Your thoughts on what we recommend or your own recommendations down in the comments Okay, so with that, uh, let's get into it All right, so I've I've got future changes here. Okay Because it's all what this is. How can we make changes for the future? And I've grouped these into two categories Tyler Okay Category one is potential gw changes things. I think they should be responsible for changing Now one of these is a little fuzzy one of these could fall into the latter category and then get moved up But ultimately I think it's something they have to do they should do this in the long run even though we can Take the the reins here We'll get to it. We'll get to it The second group the second part of changes is player group or to changes Things you can do In your own games or you if you're a to can do in your tournaments To improve the game Okay Like there are things we can do we have the power To make some changes to our own experience Right All right, cool Okay So is morgan and morgan said my thoughts are it's a really nuanced and complex topic. So good luck not triggering everyone Oh, i'm yeah, quite sure. It's there's going to be some triggering here and that's look Let me also state at the beginning I do not think in any part of this discussion that we are providing you with the bible truth Um in much the same way a lot of this discussion has been had already I don't know what the right answer is on some of this stuff. We're going to present ideas Right And maybe they're the right ideas. Maybe they're not okay. I don't know that's why I that's why I'm asking for so much feedback because I want it and I Have thoughts, but that's the best I can say about them Sure, right Yeah, dude, I I don't remember. I mean again the recency bias etc a disclaimer, but I never remember feeling this much uncertainty about what would be net positive changes without real unintended consequences in particular on on safe stacking, which like Look on the surface looks like an obvious thing that we need to address But anyway, we'll get into it. But yeah, I definitely Really feel what what's morgan is pointing out here is that there is a lot of variables and complexity to this stuff Yep, so let's talk it through These then so potential gw changes. Let's talk about safe stacking tyler. Is this a problem? My answer Yes Okay, great. That's that's that's my point right like my point is done like you can if you go and watch so recently Rob had a had an episode called amulet of destiny is too good and i'm tired of pretending it's not Okay, and in that show Uh He goes through with his get like his guest at who uh, gosh, who was the guest? Colonel cabbage. Yeah charlie was the guest And charlie goes through and basically mathematically explains why amulet of destiny is so bonkers good, right? It is just the best artifact in the game. Duh hands down, right? Like that's Is there a better artifact? No, okay cool next um And he explains how when it gets put together with safe stacking it becomes a real real big nightmare right, um And the And I tend to agree with him by the way, although I find his safe stacking point That he goes through when he goes through the math on safe stacking. I honestly find it more compelling than even the amulet of destiny point But we'll talk about both He was the first one to talk about this go ahead Yeah, we touched on this a little bit with paul a number of episodes back where you know paul is running through some examples Kind of making a similar point, but yeah, no that was a great show I think some of the details that he did to really make it apparent Yeah so Okay safe stacking Tyler you have a slightly different opinion than mine Take me through it Well, yeah, I have a unclear opinion like I I you know, I told you this week that I am more moving toward your direction on safe stacking than against your direction Not I'm still not there And and then there's the discussion about what are the potential legitimate changes that wanted to have real serious unintended consequences You know because for example any change is a two-way street. So if you I reduce the ability to You know be as durable as you can be right now, you know, there can be the other side of that street as well Like that was one of the feedbacks that that christian gave in that game against suns Is that you know, he wasn't didn't have the real triumph anymore real saves triumph anymore Which would really help with the durability of keratron But he was able to stack a little bit against the minus two minus three random suns and that was helping him out a little bit, you know, take that away and now suddenly like that's gone and suns are burning through him even faster But yeah, I'm moving more in your direction just based on my last month of games both on Exploiting it severely, you know continuing that and testing and seeing what that's like anywhere from protectors Translocating with plus four stacking that pins an entire sun's army that thought it might be Okay to try to you know like castle in a spot And I was literally able to pin the entire army and we quickly rewrack like okay Don't do that again. You got to spread out against something like that And then on the other side where it just yeah You know something like minus minus three rend Vents with the I've been playing a lot of cells in prime. You know, it's my favorite model in the game Like I told you early on Initial test I was able to save him to round three But that has not been the case of the last couple of weeks in a number of different games Minus three rend has not felt more irrelevant and Then it has the last couple of weeks was cells in prime just in terms of you know And having to go into a certain situation where I cannot avoid my opponent stacking at least a couple of times That's it and then them rolling a little bit above average But like that's all it takes to didn't just completely offset that one example. Yep So I think like iron jaws that has so much potential minus three rend that it can push through But it's we went through the entire ecosystem And minus three rend is still relatively rare in the game But on a number of occasions not just prime but other models It's it's felt. Yeah, like that it's not remotely as meaningful as used to be So that's a long winded rambling answer which is on point with how I feel about this I'm still a little uncertain But moving in your direction with regard to the need for doing something about safe stacking Yeah, I mean if you look at the math, it's pretty simple, right like Because it has a non linear growth Okay, like there is an exponential growth To the value of each save point you gain right It doesn't it doesn't like when you first think about it, you're like, no, that shouldn't be how it works But it it does Right, like there is a like each point has a non linear Advancement right like an algorithm Can't think of the right word geometric. No, I don't know whatever exponential. Yeah, sure. There's there's a different word, but I and I'm sorry my my Brain isn't working. But anyways because of the nature of how that works, right? The the like there are just Uh certain save numbers that uh That just shouldn't be reached Which is ultimately why my change to this by the way, I've seen lots of people propose changes to this By the way, ryan fry, I see you don't worry. Yes. We I comment on things every so often if people have questions Or if it's relevant, but I'm always watching brother. I'm always watching. I'm watching you. I see you ryan. I see you Okay, at any rate my like My answer for save stacking, right? Is Not only does it have very bad knock on consequences because of the thank you logarithmic. Yes, that's the word I was trying to think of Thank you very much chat because it has this logarithmic growth, right? The Reality is it sets a bad precedence to how the game wants to play um Because it creates an arms race of rend It makes a lot of units very pillow fisted Right almost instantaneously to where you can put a thousand points into a 200 point unit and bounce Right and you just That's just too much skew. Yeah, right. That's problematic Right if I hit your 200 point hero That happens to be on a three up save With like an 800 point super unit And do two wounds Something has gone wrong Right, like something's failed there and as smorgan said it also makes it so mortal wounds tip to be like just the play Yeah, totally and then we get in a worse arms race where everybody goes racing for mortal wounds Right, which many ways we're already there right now, right So there's like There are A lot of different suggestions. I've seen bandied about this. We talked about some in a previous show But I think and and all of them have some Like all of them have some good and some bad. There are downsides to every choice you could make here. Okay None of these are completely clean Let's just be clear every solution. I've seen like well limit it to cap it only one Right and then rend applies as normal Right that can that there are still downsides to all of these choices. You're gonna make right As I've said, I told you my my favorite Yeah, which is where I come down to actually I think you and I are aligned right The I think the one I lean on right now is Just cap the highest save you can get At three plus unless a lower save characteristic is printed on your war scroll That's it You can never get better than a three plus save Like you can still allow stacking and rending and stuff right to counter each other out But three becomes a border that you can't cross Because once you go from threes to twos the actual mathematical difference of what it takes to kill that thing Oh, and by the way, jettison everything that lets you re-roll ones. Those all got to go Everyone of those should be struck from the game in the winter FAQ Period. Definitely. Yeah, we still have some re-roll saves I don't care what it is If it's allowing any kind of re-roll to saves jettison it from the game immediately Period end of story Right, so if you'd get if you're on a three up save already and you get plus three to save sure you can counter neg three rend Right, cool. I'm fine with that, but you still are on three Meaning you fail A third of your save rolls and just what that means for the attacks mathematically is that things are killable Right, like things can be tough You can still need to put heat into them But if you just cap at a hard three um It just completely changes the math like again, there are exceptions because you know Cragnos has a two up and annihilators have a two up and fine. Whatever they can stay at their Their lower bonus, right? um But like if you cap at three and then kill all re-rolls Right Raxia said does that include stuff that gives say a single re-roll per turn? No No, I'd be fine with that. You're talking about like the you know, the luckstone or the storm castability Celestial war bringers. Yeah, that's fine. I'm fine with that stuff Just you know, you got to eat everything into the sun that is re-roll ones to save Right and or all of that like just jettison that crap the zinch rule all the this stuff exists in various places It should not In a game with this amount of bonuses potential bonuses to save There shouldn't be any re-rolling period Yeah, and other than those very like sure one model one save roll one roll. Yeah, okay, fine. What it's fine In a phase. Yeah, go ahead so one potentially compelling um Results or Add-on effect that you would get from doing this is that it would give you a clear incentive to have Horde units back in the game with no rent no rent for you know chain wrasse Stab us etc. Yeah, which obviously are have really Uh Tell back in terms of taking a beating as as as there's their innate value. Let's be honest. They're the worst current unit, right? Bottom line. They are the worst current unit It's a massive change. Yeah to the ecosystem with that. So, uh, I mean just to spell it out is that yeah chain wrasse rolling I mean what can 30 do can you get 30 on 90 attacks? I can get them to 60 attacks But what whatever they 60 90 attacks? Uh, no rent. I mean just the weight of dice That's going to have relevance on helping you bring down these god tier models or blood knights, whatever it is and To me, that's probably a good thing. That's probably a nice nice consequence of this and yeah yep the and I think that this like so, um flaming uh Flaming opie asked what a simpler solution be to just shift every problematic unit to a four plus bay save same effect But a lot less change. No, I don't think it would be and I'll tell you why because three up is a meaningful number It says something about the toughness of the model and I feel it's a good distinguishing factor Like certain stormcast models or the steam tank, which by the way should be on if any model in the game is on a two Up, it should be the steam tank But like those kinds of things being on a three up It says something and that you do still have to go to the work to counter the rent, right? Like there is still effort there Okay But if they can't get down below Three Then it still stops that happening and it's a simple mathematical change, right? This is a very simple rule What's your save caps at three unless it's lower on the printed sheet? Period, right? It's a simple rule that's not written in words like rules of language But the actual rules language would not be that much longer Right And so It's just an easy baseline to keep in your mind like oh, that's just the best saves can get And we already have rules like this all the time, right? Like we know that ones auto fail on multiple things in the game. We've all internalized that Right? Easily doesn't matter if you get if you can somehow get to to ones to wound or ones to hit You know your ones you roll still fail right It's just in the case of saves it needs to go to basically ones and twos always fail That's what it should be right? That's what we're effectively proposing That's all it is It's spending way too much time thinking about this in recent months I agree I mean that's the one that I keep coming back to as seemingly the nice middle ground because I do worry that This idea which is the seemingly the simplest easy button answer which is plus one random regardless You can put mystic shield find a star blah blah blah you're still only getting plus one I do worry that goes too far in the other direction and this does seem like a nice middle ground We know what ecosystems have been liking this game where mall crushes, etc Can't stay on the board like they just get taken off quickly And I would worry that we go too far in that direction But to me this feels like a middle ground Where you're still you can stack against and have the three up that's pretty good But you're not getting into the two plus nonsense that we're experiencing right now wait And what I was saying with skew is that just too many of these games I'm playing man Like it comes down to these situations where They like either you The opponent can't push through or it's the other side with the safe stacking and I feel like that's It's having way too much impact on games in my experience And it's it's it's frustrating. Yeah, and the the the key with capping at three why I like that better than just saying Well, you stop at plus one right and that's it. That's all that ever can actually accumulate Is because I do think that's dangerous in the other direction, right? Like let's take a simple rend two example, right? Um Basically like any any hero on a four plus is going to be dead pretty instantly Because he can't block enough of that rend out, right? He's going to go four three five And then his save is just going to get shredded right off, right? And and he's going to be taking sort of too much damage Right at least here if you're willing to invest the resources into the four up hero They can still be defensive. They can still have a chance to stay alive, right? But where this gets problematic when you chart out the math Right is when you can push Your hero to a two up ignoring all rend the world breaks That's it. It just breaks Okay, that's where all the numbers get stupid Right. I have been one of the we've talked earlier. I think we both like the same weekend We were playing against night haunts. I believe and I told you that yeah, it was 90 attacks morgan pointed out It's like 90 attacks Uh re-rolling wounds maybe plus one to hit like all of these buffs and they were trying to bring down a cat at cabbage And I just would not it was buckets of dice, right over multiple turns And he couldn't do a damn thing. Yep. Yeah, and it just like this is insanity that this is happening Correct. Yeah, so like there's just by because of that logarithmic growth crossing the line It it happens to be that the mathematical breakpoint is between three and two where it goes from difficult but doable to Farking crazy Right is at that point And when you cap at three being the lowest you can ever achieve Effectively making ones and twos fails unless there is a two printed on your sheets, right in which case only ones fail One that makes like the three Is there three units in the game in two up two units in the game annihilators cragnos Steam tanks have it. No steam tanks only a three up. It's for reasons I'm sure we've got one up the psyllidon. I think which has its own particular. Sure. There you go. Thank you the psyllidon Yeah, there you go. Excellent, right Um, you know, so exempting those things Right. It just means that all the big bads who are often on a three up mega bosses on mawcrusher You know archion whatever you can pick your big bad that is your personal big bad, right? And That would be the and and that's the best way to fix it now My perfect world Yeah, everybody said the psyllidon. Thank you Um turtle is on the two up now. Yeah, oh is the turtle on a two up. Nice. Okay. There you go. Yeah Thanks to broken realms. Yeah, there you go. Okay My perfect way to fix this I talked to Tyler about this. This is let's talk about pie in the sky like to me the three up cap is the way that like that actually Like would work with something they could do Right like with yeah without a series of other changes and getting too crazy and I think this would also help Like again, I suspect we may be seeing more battle tomes that are going to increase rent. Maybe as a Play to the 3.0 system. Yeah. Well, this would help offset against that. Whereas like just simply adding plus one Is not going to do that. So I feel like this is more future proof in a world where we get more rent even Yep. Yep. Absolutely And because like we have to think in terms of the realistic here, right and Unfortunately, my idea of how you actually fix this isn't realistic, but here's how you would actually fix this if you wanted to fix it which is You would eliminate All this new plus one save we added to the game outside of three Core abilities and you would work them like this All that defense stays exactly how it is Okay, because it's fine you use a command point. It's whatever Uh last stand can stay exactly how it is because it's only one hero and it's only in one turn in the game And then your third ability is mystic shield the best spell in the game period Okay It's the best spell in the game should not cast on a five We move mystic shield up to at least a seven To cast maybe an eight Okay And that's it thus endeth the list And we unwind all the other plus one save that they just Sprinkled all over the game Like just they're like they're throwing glitter everywhere Right now. It's all stuck in everything and we can't get rid of it It's all over seven earth right now in particular. Yeah, exactly like this insane would save stacking That would be the correct way to do it because then Your actual plus ones to save would be extremely constrained They would be under these tight controls of these three core abilities, which would be highly valuable Right And but they themselves have their own natural built-in controls like that is to say all that defense you can be roared out of it right You know mystic shield can be unbound and if you make the casting number actually harder Right then at least at least there's some interplay there And like certainly there's still plenty of armies that have bonuses to cast I agree with that, you know that they're still going to hit that number without too much But at least it's a number that you have to roll for and not a complete choke Right where it's just like mystic shield got it next, you know I feel like storm cast is a great example of that storm cast They really toned down the magic in that book which personally I like I like that they did that it's really hard to find any bonuses to cast much less a two spell two cast wizard And but the fact that mystic shield is just simply on a five Like a lot of times. Okay, cool. I just hit my plus three as opposed to simply plus two or hit my plus four Yeah, I mean it makes a real big difference to that army Yep So anyways, but that's not going to happen. They're not going to unwind all that so fine Like in the world of realism just doing the three cap is the right answer The three cap Restore sanity to the world makes it show we don't have situations where it literally takes 500 a thousand attacks to bring somebody down Okay, which is the world we live in now And it makes it so you have to like somewhat played carefully with your units, but your tough guys can still be tough Right. It's as near as I can tell it's the It's the sort of It's the best Change with the least negative externalities That's what I think Again, potentially a sizeably positive one. Yeah with with big. Yeah, no rent units Have no reason to come back Yeah All right. Hey, yeah, erin on the yeah, I need to think through the mystic shield That's what I haven't really thought a whole lot about. Yeah, whether the mystic shield and I see yeah, vence's point Your point on that I haven't thought through that one in a whole lot Just in terms, you know, some of the chat they're making the point about What a you know Armies with a low value actually have a shot at getting mystic shield Whereas you know these spell dom etc armies a lot of armies They're not going to care what the value is seven or eight. They're going to get it off by the way So is that I understand what you're saying? I really do But all you're doing is moving the bar of failure slightly up and down, right? Like it's not fine But like again, I wouldn't die on that hill if those are the only three in the game if we got to that world Great fine fantastic like fine. It can stay out of five. It's silly that the best spell in the game is not a five to cast like If we're actually if casting value is in any way Supposed to be tied to the quality of the effect, which I'm pretty sure that's the idea of the thing right Then mystic shield shouldn't be a five in any world Right Okay Like we lived in that world and it was pretty bad. It was a problem. So it got changed the real saves of one I mean that it was the define arguably the defining general spell in the game in 1.0 over multiple years Mystic shield. It was way too good. Plus one saved everywhere. Sure Yeah, I mean if you make it if you make it flaming op says make mystic shield a six plus plus problem solved Well, again, no Because then you got to think about your negative externalities, right? So your negative externalities should go from one of the best spells in the game to like one of the worst spells in the game And is that appropriate? To have as one of your two core spells to have one of the worst spells in the game because there are whole like right now Mystic shield sucks for night haunt. Sure, but most other but every other army can benefit from it You may get a six plus plus ward and the number of armies that just don't benefit from it skyrockets Right, like all of death that spell is suddenly worthless, right and and on and on and on Daughters legion, right? There's a lot of armies that'll just suddenly be like this spell literally does nothing for me now Right and that that's a negative externality because not like all of those armies are meta breakers right so But yeah chat let us know if you guys guys have any thoughts on things that we missed with this the solution to save stacking I mean clearly we you know are highly oriented around this as the answer as a potential good middle ground very simple To to implement, but if we're missing anything, let us know I'll be very curious particularly, you know add comments Yeah um, so at any rate um That's my my thought on it Okay, amulet of destiny. Let's talk about this bad boy uh Turns out that the mathematical difference between a six plus ward and a five plus ward is pretty stupidly big And it also turns out that the Uh, yes, s flaming opie just said yes, it's a huge difference Uh, it is a massive difference actually in effect um because The real extra wounds added like a amulet of destiny results in 50 more wounds Whereas a six up ward results in 20 more wounds right Hmm and the A four plus ward is straight bonkers. It effectively doubles your wounds, right obviously Um, and but fortunately those are fairly constrained right that exists on not very many things in the game So fine, and those are all like four plus words aren't being handed out The amulet of destiny not only is it on a five up, but it's on a five up You can give to anybody in a universal thing that has no restrictions as as charlie well pointed out it's uh like um It is a Universal anybody can take it always think it you know, it's always valuable thing more or less And it scales really really poorly because it's adding effectively 50 percent of your wounds, right What 30 percent, uh, it negates 33 of the damage which effectively adds 50 percent of your wounds, which is yes, exactly So, um the reality here, right is that When I say it scales very poorly the difference between your average five wound Hero with the amulet of destiny Who goes to effectively seven wounds or something like that seven seven and a half eight wounds And a mega gargant or whatever we don't have to always use the mega gargant But he's the big bad boy, right Who goes from like 35 or 40 wounds to 55 or 60 or whatever the number happens to be, right? That's such a such a massive difference in effect out of this thing, right? And the uh That like it's it becomes an autopick for something, right? um Like this is the most popular artifact in the game. I haven't I haven't looked at the stats So I'm not like I don't have I don't openly admit. I don't have supporting date on that But I've seen it anecdotally enough to know that there's I mean Come on. This is in so many lists like unless you unless you were one drop And in a sub faction where your artifact was prescribed You have you probably like odds are you have the amulet of destiny? All right Because it's just so yeah Yeah, that that would be cure. I would be curious to see that analysis to go through faction and Get a real clear sense of the landscape Like lumina doesn't have reasons to take amulet of destiny all of sequel Daughters probably don't have a well maybe but you know like actually go through it I'd be curious to see what the but but in general. Yeah, clearly it's everywhere Right So the question is is it a problem like I mean it it gets taken all the time Generally auto choices raise some kind of red flag Right. So tyler is this thing actually a problem? This one I felt less about less clear on like We could think about this with current save stacking And we can think about this with our proposed 3 plus unless you have a 2 plus built on on your worst scroll You know, is there a meaningful difference there in terms of the impact of amulet of destiny? First off the honest answers. I don't know No, like the math That charlie another, you know, even paul. I don't think paul got on a damn amulet of destiny in our show together But certainly that show that charlie did made a pretty good case on the math for it That it's too impactful. There's also the argument that anytime you have A fact that becomes, you know, the Standard go-to that's a problem. Yeah, it's setting it's setting a difficult benchmark Right, right. We and we lived in that world with ethereal amulets and a handful of others where, you know Ethereal amulet was all over the place and kind of ironically that's somewhat what we're talking about in this state of the game, you know With where Around the time of ethereal amulet that we were generally a little bit before massive shooting, you know, that like yeah I mean ironically if you just switch this back to the ethereal amulet, I don't think it'd be a challenge at all It wouldn't be a problem at all because in the world of like safe stacking ethereal sucks Almost, right So it's like if they had just reprinted the ethereal amulet everybody'd be like, that's fine. I'd take it sometimes Yeah, yeah, and then there's the I mean you made the point and charlie the same thing that you know It's probably fine on a six one hero, but it becomes really I think it can be problematic I convinced that it's so problematic. It needs to go away At least in terms of that specific argument again, there's a separate argument about It's potentially too problematic because it's everywhere. It's the obvious go-to That's the challenge in its own right, but like, you know, there's like the six one hero There's the 18 wound, you know 14 wound Vampire lord and zombie dragon 18 womb cabbage and then of course the mega gargant Gate break in particular. So like clearly there's the it grows and its Impact as as you have more wounds on a particular unit particularly in the case of suns and how that army works Again long-winded answer to say that I'm I'm not sure man Like I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on this and maybe I'll have more formed opinions as we go As we get into this Yeah, it's tough because on one hand It's the nature of the game right now that oftentimes you need this on some heroes that are aren't that are like average at best And it can make them viable Like it can lift up a lot of heroes and make them that that are not great And put them into a viable place, which is like which is good right Um that that is a valuable thing Right being able to keep some utility heroes alive or you want to have a cool six wound general Like yeah, great like make it so that guy doesn't just automatically get popped off Is a good thing Right like that is a net positive for the game Right 100% agree. Yeah, that's really meaningful particularly, you know, we've got a lot of reasons that are pushing against shooting Thankfully in this meta that's where we were in 2020, but we still have shooting I like it that I can have my five or six wounds hero That I have like some chance of not instantaneously imploding to gift of change from kairos You know that I at least get a roll against it And it's like yay Maybe I actually can make my guy live when the when when kairos is just like oh and you're melted and you respond and suck it I I did all these things and you had no interplay against it because there's no way you're stopping my spells So just suck at your hero is dead take it off the board, right like pick up your choice, mate um You know like I I appreciate that that that those kinds of things exist because I often like to run those kinds of heroes Right and or make them my general So let's talk But but there's downsides and we've talked about all the downsides, right? So let's just talk through some solutions people have been rattling them in the comments And I I agree with a lot of these as potentials. I don't have a strong bias on this one as to where to begin Here are some potentials. Okay Option one it only works against a particular type of attack Okay, so you could say like it's only a five upward against shooting attacks. Well, that doesn't stop spells, right? Yeah, so like my kairos example would still fall through All right, but it would stop things like it would stop the shooting from easily picking them up, right? And as usual like I was we were talking of course seemed to bias I'm thinking I played a lot of cabbage got a lot of cabbage time in and you know Thinking about that and like experience those games and well 30 sentinels is still a thing out there two by 20 sentinels or 15 snake bows double tapping and like all these things that can still just Get 480 points off the board quickly if you have no way to protect against but I'm perfectly fine with mortal wound melee because I can control that a little bit more You know if I get in a situation where that's happening the equivalent and that's probably on me I did something stupid So but yeah, just just add that point. I do think that's like a big part of this consideration for me in terms of the an argument of maybe keeping it for Models with a wound characteristic of ten or more as opposed to just simply sending it sending the bar at nine or less Yeah, so Okay Oh, by the way, the reason I think this needs to change is very simple. Here's ultimately why this should change It's the benchmark argument this Artifact sets a poor benchmark for every book and creates a set of bad incentives Where every book's own internal artifacts become naturally worse period its its existence is doing that right Okay so Option one would be against a specific type of thing or or not against a specific type thing You could phrase it either way right like five upward against anything except a melee attack or something like that, right? You could you could you could instru it that way that's option one So only against shooting or not against melee or so you get what I'm saying, right as far as those statements go Option two Uh, if we're like all of these constructs, I'm gonna spit out keep the five upward construct for the moment, right? Option two would be Uh, you can't take it on anyone with a certain characteristic Right, so like it can only go on a hero of nine wounds or less Right effectively. What are a sub commander? It can't go on anyone with the monster keyword right Something like that Which there is some versimilitude there you're wearing an amulet of destiny around your neck your monster is not he represents most of your wounds Right, like I can't understand why that limitation could be in place. Yeah So I suppose that's possible So that's one like that's another way we could do it, right? Option three we could change the construct itself so we could make it back to either Ignax's scales Okay, so it's a four up, but only against mortal wounds Dance mortals. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, or we could make it the ethereal amulet again Where it just makes the unit ethereal Right and it's fine, right Uh, I do think ethereal amulet would be fine in the current meta. All right Okay Well, what I was getting at is that in some ways what we're proposing and generally what we have already Is that we have a thereal amulet all over the place in this game? Sure and and in particular the idea of just setting the Three up unless you have a built-in two up you aren't getting but you know Two's and ones are going to fail unless you have built-in two plus save on your war scroll We're more or less talking about a thereal amulet, you know with safe stacking stool That that's that's going to be all over the place But I think that would be a much better world to live in Yeah, which is just kind of ironic thinking about you know, ethereal amulet back in 2019 Yeah, and real quick. I want to address something in the chat. Joshua park said, you know, not every good thing needs to be Nerfed I totally agree with that brother. I I'm not arguing for nerfing every good thing in the game I love having unique good things that push the boundaries I what I'm saying with this one is I think it's creating a perverse set of incentives and bad benchmarking And that's why it needs to be adjusted like I saw some people calling to get the the arcane tone Jettisoned no way that thing's pure fun Pure fun. I would never like that's a good thing. I like what it does. It should stay in the game I'm good with it because yeah, it gives you a spell make sure wizard, but at the same time you still got to cast a thing Right like that and there's interactivity there Like turning you into an average caster in most cases is just like that's cool All right, there's a lot less downside on that one I think there's some discussion we can have around that one, but yeah, it's in its own category Sure. My point is I don't want to see a jettison. I like it. I want to see the same thing, but also make you a priest Um, just a generic priest. I I want the I want the rosary of faith to make you to make you a priest um Okay, the Here's now my final option tyler. I'm going to go left field on you. You're ready I'm going hard left field on this one Okay The amulet of destiny well Assuming that means you're meant to live to a point. I guess is what that's pointing at right like these ward saves are often construed as destiny Like the old uh phoenix guard they can see the moment of their death and that gives them a ward save or whatever, right? Yeah Okay So here's my suggestion It's a two up ward save All right until you fail one roll Okay, and it goes away And no longer Somebody's been enjoying the the wargark profit minigame here So like I want to get a little get a little more of that minigame in our I'm stealing this from the archon in the dark eldar or whatever they're called now That's that's one of his classic abilities. I don't know if he still has it He had it back in like third edition when I played 40k, but I always thought it was a funding ability, right? So it's like a two up ward Until you fail any roll Then it goes away completely it becomes non-function right That's intriguing We we have some examples of that in the game. We have the ko example that that little minigame Yeah, you can try to burn tiny unit with mortal wounds. I can remember what the heck it's called But yeah, and it's it's the same thing two up and it goes away permanently on a on a one And I mean that that generally hasn't broken the game, you know, like every once in a while something crazy will happen Uh That's so initial. Okay. Let's let's run through the meta high level again. Let me option one is It does it either only works against type x or doesn't work against type x right Option two is it cannot be taken on type Y right monster heroes over 10 wounds Whatever right option three Is it becomes like a four up? But it becomes all dignaxes scales option four is it becomes a Uh an ethereal type thing and option five is we go way left field and we get into the uh, the the crazy The the funny arc on ability right and I saw cw kreiner say no, we don't need a mega garden with a two up ward Well, I mean he would for like on average of six rolls Right that that's what that's going to mathematically work out to it's not nothing Right on average it gives you plus five wounds But what's interesting about it is when you set it like that to where the first one removes it Mathematically it adds like five wounds At most you see what I'm saying like because if you put it on a 40 wound guy He fails it in six rolls if you put it on a five wound guy. He fails it in six rolls Do you get what I'm saying like it stops this it minimizes the scalability problem now, obviously you could roll 20 dice in a row and never roll one that could happen right so I'm suspect Yeah, it would have a Sizable impact on the risk reward assessment. Yeah fully on high wound models. Sure, but let me tell you what man Uh, I'm gonna go throw a bunch of nonsense at that giant like what I would always do against the enemy arc on back in the day Was just like shoot random bullcrap at them to make them start testing right Because like I just want to start pushing on it because you're gonna roll the one Like it will happen be a Must roll or you can use it. Do you get the choice or it's just like amulet right now? You must roll. Yeah Okay No, it's it's intriguing then we'll come back to that one. So let's talk about so the first one Yeah, we limiting while we're just limiting this is shooting attacks, etc that's certain like I said that certainly to me Uh argument for considering keeping amulet of destiny is that we have a number of examples of these Monster, you know high cost pieces that you don't necessarily just want the suit and get burned off by Name whatever and you know those Units that can do that are not out there in abundance But we do clearly have a number of well-known examples And particularly on top tables right now where they come into play sentinels, uh snakebones, etc So I yeah, I mean it's certainly potentially addressing a pain point doesn't I'm not sure It's the ideal answer the the with the it's the one I like the least That's because it has the it what it does is it's it's gonna have weird Effects where like weird loopholes where it isn't seeming to work in the way you would want it to Right unless you construed it as a knot and in which case like if you construed as the knot may lay right and If you do that It's like it's gonna create a bad set of incentives. It seems to be the least fun option. That's what I'll say Now it's good against like, you know iron drakes snake bows sentinels whatever like yeah It's good against all that still if you made a say just shooting or something, right? Like that's not that it loses its value there right but I like that one the least the monster or Like no monster or no Oh more than nine wounds restriction It's sort of the most if you wanted to preserve the amulet at where it is Like with a five up save Like just being a five up ward that feels like the sort of cleanest one Right because then we sort of hedge out all the really problematic scalability issues Right Um I would much prefer if it was just Ignex honest answer Like again if like where it was just four ups against mortals or something like that, right? By the way, I like that one the best if combined with our changes to save stacking I said if anybody's got Pushback like I haven't thought about this enough. I really want to Really interested in hearing and maybe on events we can try to do a little bit as well as the counter arguments You know arguments for keeping it just as is like what might be we missing but we can come back to that So what is your memory of Ignex? You know at its height how how was it how was your what's your nightmare scenario? Is that what you're asking? This is Ignex and that's probably irrelevant. So Ignex is mostly fine. It didn't light the med on fire Its worst use was you put it on a storm drake or star drake who could get to a one bless save Yeah, because he could get my memory because he could combine in in the old edition the worst nightmare of save stacking Plus mortal wound protection, right? So he'd be on a one up save You know re-rollable probably in various cases depending sometimes, but he'd be on like a one up save probably a zero bless save he could get to zero right And Then have a four up against mortals. So he's very hard to punch through right But if you combine that with our you can't ever get better than a three right No, that would have made a A huge difference. Yeah on the on the star drake maybe for the better Yeah, because it certainly played a star drake for about six months as you know And yeah, it was pretty wild what that thing could do in terms of viability and was very underrated at the time I thought in 2019 just in terms of an amazing anvil that had a place to do damage and just be nuisance Yeah, so that that's my memory of Ignex. It wasn't all over the place Like there were particular models that could get some add sufficient advantage and taking artifact slot with it But but it wasn't rampant. It wasn't an outsized impact is with that True in in in 3.0 where we are now and yeah, Aaron I mean, that's you know, potentially fair point. Sure, you know, this came up in another context I saw recently where I think Charlie was talking about this in terms of save stacking, you know Like one of the counter arguments he's making the same point about why don't you just address the problematic unit specifically? You know the specific and that's a that's a fair point. Yeah, maybe sentinels still are still too cheap Maybe sure sentinels are too cheap But like we're using those three because they're shorthand but it's not like that's the end of the story Right, like the entire ko army, for example Could be pushing on you in the in a heavy way of shooting, right? Like that those are just the go-to three because they're the worst offenders because they are all probably too efficient in what they can achieve right But but they're far from the only list of offenders, right? That's the challenge. We're just using them as shorthand. That's the trick Yeah I mean So I'm kind of there with you man. Like my blink reaction, which could be off That I find the idea of eggnacks very compelling Just in terms of trying to quickly think about yeah, like the variables and where we are In particular in relation to these bigger models There and yeah, and if save stacking is still relevant like I would that would help, you know where you can have your 500 point model with some means of offsetting mortal winds, which is again what made eggnacks interesting and Special cases, but it wasn't rampant But we're also like it's hard to think back two years ago relative to the game now And so much has changed obviously and bigger models are a lot more relevant and powerful powerful etc And but yeah, that does strike me as compelling Now my pick if we were talking about the most fun option It would be that archon play because I just think that's hilarious and I actually quite like the way that mathematically becomes unpredictable Like it would be on a lot less top table things because spike hates unpredictability like that Okay Right like because sometimes you will roll the die and roll a one on your first roll like that it can't happen In fact, I would say it happens One in six times mathematically, right? And spike hates that kind of crap Which keeps it out of the which keeps it out like timmy loves it spike hates it that generally probably keeps it right there out of the worst offending lists and and the the sort of like That kadra cohort of lists And I just think it's funny and cool like oh that was your destiny You wrote that was that moment was your destiny right like it actually thematically ties in the best You could do like some people in the chat of success have suggested I'm not sure who I apologize. I didn't catch exactly who said it But you could make it only trigger that two up on the last wound so that every roll becomes this like really super tense suspenseful moment You know like that could be really fun um Right like that that could be a really fun Uh, like just a really cool flavorful artifact right like what a neat thing to happen right So everybody in the chat, I would love to hear would you I mean, whether you're I can think about this especially in a tournament context where you're trying to Let's go three two. You're trying to have a more wins and losses I'll sequel would you take this in your list? Or does this really change the equation? I suspect Vice the answers. I suspect it really changes the equation to a lot of tournament players In meaning that they're not going to take it sure which it's too fine. Like we need to move the benchmark down, right? We knew that so, okay Terrain and let's keep moving because I want to do I do want to keep going with this Okay, yeah, that that was a great one. Yeah, I really really found that fascinating Uh, Ignax Ignax is compelling Yep, I to me the two potential winners out of that that I like are the Ignax and the archon ability, right? Those those two seem fun Um, especially if the archon was as has been construed on the last wound that makes it hilarious um, because I point of fact suspense increases engagement the more suspense you build into your game the more engaged players are when roles feel like they matter people dial in right And that role if it was on the last wound would become like It would just be so tense every time So, you know, there you go. Anyways, it could be fun Terrain improvements. We're going to deep dive in so we'll get to those in a second self-imposed formats So let's move to the player group to changes as I mentioned not all of this necessarily has to be things We need gw to change terrain improvements kind of crosses the line there Um, but we'll but we'll let's talk it through. Okay um the Self-imposed formats. So what what the heck do I mean by this? All right, I'm going to tell a story about elder dragon highlander So back in the 90s a lot of people who ran tournaments and owned shops and stuff Either at night or after tournaments or on the side or because they were bored or because they were sick of the way magic was being played Decided to make a new format. I have no idea where this originally started with. I remember I I I became familiar with it and probably like 96 97 somewhere in that range because I actually worked at a magic Store and sold magic cards for a living. That was what I did And it was the second best job I've ever had. It was amazing And The an elder dragon highlander became this thing where it was like so a normal magic card deck is a 60 card deck wherein you can have four of any card that's not a basic land and Elder dragon highlander was a completely different format. The idea was it was 100 cards in your deck Everything was limited to singletons and you got this special little guy. Originally. It was the elder dragons, which were these Things out of legends that had three colors and they were big seven sevens and stuff And you could only play with the colors that were part of your little dragon So if you had like nickel bolus who's blue black red Then you could only have blue black red in your deck, right? And you could only have one of any given card other than basic lands in your deck And What's fascinating about it is it was it was completely disruptive of the norm, right? Like normal magic decks were very predictable, especially in that time where you could where you could um You know, you could really control your deck in a lot of big ways You could draw a lot of cards. You had a lot of filtering a lot of shuffling You could really get in there and get your combos firing, right? And when you switch it to a hundred card deck and you make everything singletons it completely disrupted that Right like you had to build a much different deck And then the game played completely differently and elder dragon highlander Uh Eventually becomes then grows becomes more and more popular over time It becomes this thing called morphs into this thing called commander which actually gets sanctioned by wizards of the coast and now is as far as I know Extremely successful I don't know if it's their biggest format. I but I mean it is Very popular. I'll say I can say that with absolute assurity They sell commander decks like just literally pre-built commander decks um like uh The you know commander has become this standard Standard format ironically and it grew out of just a bunch of people playing a game now elder dragon took years and years To evolve into Commander and into being a recognized product and and all of that right more than a decade Somebody just said 2014 Uh, I Yeah, brice said it is the most popular format by far. I I haven't seen the data So I can't say what I can say without any doubt. It is like It's very very popular Um, and it took a long time to go from the creation of elder dragon highlander to wizard sanctions. It starts making products, right? Those two things are patently true Okay, so I think that we could do the same thing here Either in a big or a small way and I'm going to talk about one of those things and it was done This was brought up first. I hadn't really thought about like this, but this was brought up by uh by Aos list labs by smorgan In his video through nuzlocke and we're going to talk about nuzlocke, which is actually a pokeman thing and The uh And I think there's there's potential here, right uh for For how we could all decide To have our game structured as a either self-imposed format. We do it to ourselves in our own list building We could make an agreement in our group that this is what we will do or the to could do it as The way their tournament is run Right, this doesn't need to be a gw thing and if and by the way, it doesn't need to be perfect We could have experimentation Just like elder dragon wasn't exactly what we ended up with today with commander when it started right Right, she said started run 96 first pre con uh night 2011. So yeah, that's that's quite a big gap there interesting And so that sounds about right like I said, I remember playing it in in that time period I was working at the store in 96 97 so I don't I like and I do not remember exactly when I came into it But we used to do the format pretty Yeah, but the same thing because I would run a lot of a lot of magic tournaments working at the store And then we would just sit around afterward and play the game So anyways, okay, we'll talk about that more in a detail. We're gonna deep we're gonna deep dive on terrain and self-imposed formats Uh, and then the the last one here's my here's my simple ideas for player Again, these could go for some of these can be very self-imposed Some of these can be again your group can choose to do it and sometimes it could be the tournament organization doing it So individual group tournament, but it's a bottom-up thing. That's the point, right? No army book grand strategies battle tactics may be corp Italians Jettison them from the game. They're poison. They shouldn't Be there. They make the game worse The other option is you could do a forced grand strat rotation Right I mean by that So what I mean by forced grand strat rotation is instead of assigning your grand strat to your army list You pick one per round Okay. Yeah, which which I've seen tournaments experimenting with Yeah, I played at gateway open And really liked it Generally heard positive feedback. I think there are some factions, you know, there's gonna be differential advantage Like maybe suns will struggle a little bit more with that format Maybe that's a good thing for suns to struggle a little bit more in that regard But yeah, generally we got a lot of positive feedback and it I loved it I told you like the day after the tournament. It reminded me of schemes at Nashcon. Right. It was fantastic. Yeah I really think like with grand strategies. They they missed a trick by making it a list thing, right? Um, that's why I said maybe corp Italians. I don't I've seen the corp Italians I think most of them are just generally bad and they're they're basically just extra ink And I'm not sure that any of them are actually problematic. Maybe that maybe the giant one the the the suns is like It's a little problematic, right? um but the the No arm like at minimum the no book grand strategies battle tactics. We should all just agree. That's the thing Like I don't understand why we allow What five armies right now to just have a much bigger list of stuff to pick from On something that's supposed to be even footing for everybody. I I don't get it So does the the equation change? If and when we if and when we get to the point like we generally did in 2019 where most armies had a book 2.0 If every army had it, I might read like every that's my bar I don't want one other Army one army left out is too many That's the only point I'd revisit this discussion These things are just poison Right because they're either so good their autocompletes and they increase your number of potential battle tactics into the point where you can slam dunk five Okay, which is bad because the way battle tactics should work Is exactly like the hit ratio we wanted for schemes, which was three out of five Right, if he if I were to aggregate all battle tactic completion across all games played If I could magically aggregate that data the perfect number would be 60 In three out of five rounds people completed their battle tactics on average Right if that was what I what we hit Then battle tactics would be perfect And the reality is when you print more battle tactics in these books and these white dwarf articles And you increase the number of potential slam like just windmill slam dunks from what they are now To more you drastically increase the chances that there will just be five you can autocomplete in a non-interactive fashion Right in any given game it might not even always be the same vibe by the by right Like sure sometimes it's probably going to be always run three units And you know can test two objectives or have two units in their backfield or whatever right, but it could vary But it increases the chances that in any given game You will have five autos Which invalidates that portion of the game Right We've gotten arguably luckier than not with the first two battle tomes that we've seen and these white dwarf supplements where The majority are irrelevant at the same time though. We have seen plenty of examples of what you're talking about where Name, you know There will be one that is going to be pretty damn easy to achieve Yeah, there are there are multiple good ones in the se book. Thankfully, they're mostly for dragons, which don't exist yet But it's actually another part of what makes the all dragon or the dragon based army and storm cast more powerful They get two more really good battle tactics that they can complete But they will be very good at right And so that's bad Because the two of them are just like they get If you're a dragon kill a battle line unit, they get they get broken ranks two and they get bring it down to electric blue blue, right The war clans has a couple that are worth it as well one or one at least one that's generally worth it as well So like again, but that's the problem if they're either they're bad and they become extra stuff I have to think about and find the one game in 30 where I actually it becomes the right choice right Or They're too good Which is still bad by the way To be super clear, right? That's just that's extra confusion Signal to noise ratio is a really important thing in making the game playable Right like low information users of the system hate Bad signal to noise ratios. And so a lot of times I think from a tournament lens We look at and highly informed players we look at stuff and just go nope That's bad. So it doesn't matter. It can't be bad for the game if it's just bad. No one would use it incorrect Low information players one don't necessarily know it's bad Okay, and so we'll try it and fail and not understand why they're doing bad things To it created busted boost the signal to noise ratio, which they have a problem distinguishing between Right and three it's bloat and clutter So like even battle tactics that are on paper bad that are if some lorem text Are a negative for the game, okay Yeah There's so one of the picks of the week one of our shows I mentioned this great conversation that tip-a-top tactics had about Is there too much complexity in 40k 9th edition? The main takeaway that I had is that they were hammering Stratigens, which in many ways are our version of battle tactics You know, stratagens are these things that cost you a point. I mean they provide bonus, but yeah Yeah, they're they're not exactly. But yeah, it's kind of there are some some key differences, but similar in the sense of You want to get really good at trying to deny battle tactics In terms of winning games in 3.0, sure If that mean which generally means you're gonna Which by the way isn't often the case anymore because there are just often five that you have no interactivity with Right, exactly. Yeah, but that means that you're incentivized to Have as much knowledge about all, you know, the battle tactics of all the different factions So I mean it certainly ramps up the required knowledge if you're really trying to understand whereas of course we Just having a universal list of what eight that we've got right now Yeah, that's so much more self-contained. So yeah, like on that level. I really hate it as well. Yeah Like my honest answer Is I wish every to from now until the end of this edition would just write into their tournament pack We will not be using grand strategies or battle tactics from any from any source except the general's handbook From the whatever it's called ger or whatever that whatever our current battle pack is named Right. That is the only source of valid grand strategies battle tactics. All to you should just be putting that in their pack period I I cannot fathom I can't fathom How we decided that this incredibly important part of the game Right that that is like usually the difference between winning and losing. Let's be honest It ain't killing stuff. We talk about damage a lot right But bill sues approved you can have a list That's pillow fist. It is all get out and go five. Oh There's about zero damage coming out of that list every round, right? That's a bit of an exaggeration, but I know where you're going. Yeah You could round to the damage that list did to zero until he summoned stuff. Okay Not really. I understand. He had some shooting and such But like it was pillow fisted. That's certainly true Yet he was able to win because he was always mobile. He was always completing his battle tactics He was achieving his grand strat, right? He was playing the objective game. Well, right He was playing two the things that gave him points And in my experience battle tactics are often the difference in whether you win or lose a game And so I do not I Simply can't fathom how we all decided it's okay to just let five armies have extra bites of the apple Like you guys all get one apple The 20 of you you get one apple each these guys get two Why? No, redistribute the apples Okay Uh, it's just unacceptable So there you go the the force grand strat is something that could have a lot of potential Negative externalities, especially for certain armies. That's something I'd like to see more experimentation with Just like personal or group levels or stuff like that or maybe a couple tournaments that do it as an experiment and just so we can see how it plays Yeah, no, I'm definitely not Yeah, we need more information on that one more. Yeah, I'm not I'm not dying on that hill I just think it's a cool idea to try Right Yeah Yeah, good stuff All right Let's deep dive Okay, so we got two deep dives here for you everybody Okay I'm time time stamping this 231 Okay So the first one is terrain. I think this should start as a player group To change thing and move to what gw should just do as a train pack So here I have charlie kernel cabbage. He's back again. This guy at half of our show today has apparently Brought to you by kernel cabbage. So a true hero If that man hasn't won a warhammer hero award yet, I don't know what that I don't know what the award is for Okay, so um the This is his tournament terrain rules I like a lot of this. I don't love everything about it, but it's a great starting point Okay So, uh Aesthetics said three hours in let's deep dive. Yep. Exactly. It sounds like a tyler show um Let's set some context for this. Yeah, you hit the context first and then we'll get into the thing You had an amazing show with rob and rob rob's been doing some work and you know really driving this train from the beginning Yep Doing great work with it. He put together you guys put together this draft And funnily enough I had done an iteration which you know I told you I was curious to find out if charlie had seen that and it turned out he hadn't I'd asked charlie for you know some context who we were going to talk about this As to put that on twitter today and he had literally written some of that I told you today He'd literally written some of the exact same sentences that I did my iteration when he had not seen what I'd done with Your guys work. So yeah, we kind of have all been thinking about This stuff, but definitely want to give a shout out to rob as as part of this He's done some great work to help kick the ball off Yeah, rob has been a leader on this from the beginning talking about the value of terrain And by the way, I agree with him Like if 40k itself proves that like you can have a game with tons of shooting And if you have good terrain the game can work and if you have bad terrain it falls apart Right now, I've been the 40k Matt is kind of a hot steaming pile right now, but that's for different reasons, right? Like theoretically at least makes it better Anyways, so yes to to there's a lot of people who've contributed this this particular thing We're going to look at is charlie's take on it Um But and I think there's a lot of good ideas here Okay, so his idea is effectively that Terrain has like a type which effectively is just size And a keyword and the keyword has a function, right? How you interact with it? It's that simple again. This isn't great. This isn't revolutionary and that's the whole point of this Right this these ideas have been explored before these ideas are in 40k to some degree already It works a little differently than what we're proposing here, but it's just a little simpler take on it, which I like I think 40k is terrain systems a bit over complicated, but um Your mileage may vary all right so, uh And then he has set terrain maps that he uses now again You wouldn't have to necessarily use this map You could use just like the typing and keywording and I think still draw a tremendous amount of value Right because not everybody's going to necessarily as he points out In in this document this can put an onus on the to to have like a lot of different terrain, right? And terrain is expensive. You got a hundred tables for your tournament like Good lord. That's a lot of investment in money time, etc, right? um, okay So first is core principles don't use the terrain rules from a os which we all should be knowing right like Unless you're unless you're referred back to them Nothing here removes true line of sight. We're keeping true line of sight. It's fine. We can mitigate it Like we can we can play with it in the right way um There is a The rules there every one of these things will have an intent which is something I you know rob originally had and I originally talked about I think intent is really powerful when you're doing these kind of rules. It's effectively serves designer notes I believe in designer notes. I believe designers should state their intent clearly as it can end arguments before they begin okay And then um, and then some keywords can have overlapping rules just for clarity. Okay So The types are effectively sizes extra large large medium small area obstacle of garrison. We'll get to all these This isn't game rules. It's just kind of the function of the thing Let's get to the keywords because that's really I think that's the magic of this. This is the heart of this thing, right? So obscuring. What's the intent? Reduce the effectiveness of spells and shooting and create a more dynamic gaming experience that forces movement, right? That's the intent All right, so visibility between two models is blocked if a straight line one millimeter wide Drawn between the closest point to the two models passes across or over obscuring terrain features Okay, visibility to or from models with a wounds characteristic of 10 or more is not blocked by obscuring terrain features standard big big person exception So in other words, it's line of sight blocking terrain If you can if you draw a line between the closest point of the two models and it goes over the obscuring terrain You can't see them easy peasy Right works fine with the core rules if you can see only part of a unit. Can I shoot the unit? Yes, because that's already in the core rules, right? If I can see what if you got one dude hanging out you know Flapping his butt cheeks in the wind and nine guys are behind obscuring. You can shoot that unit, right easy A couple of thoughts on this, you know, I in my experience historically The west tournaments have not had enough lanes of line of sight blocking Tables There have been some tournaments that have been able to achieve this Nash con as the one that obviously stands out with Pocastro Haven company's incredible work over the years You know that Does place a higher minimum bar if you're saying that well just run tournaments with a bucket load of Amazing, you know tall big. Yeah large pieces of pure line of sight blocking terrain Right where it has to physically block the line of sight Suddenly like the to has to be like, oh geez. Where am I going to get all these huge thick solid rocks buildings? Whatever right like and and paint those things You know as someone who spent 50 hours over the past we work it on some big giant towers Like I didn't a small investment. I did one two by two board Not not 50 tables Right Oh, yeah, this This orientation just makes it a lot more viable for a lot more tos, etc Or just you know clubs players in general. Yeah, it's uh Out of line of sight blocking on the tables. Yep. So yeah huge fan of this um and so like You know like this kind of stuff I think is huge because again, we mentioned earlier Shooting alpha strikes, right are the worst kind of alpha because you can't chaff against them They're often hard to deploy outside of just because the size of the tables versus the range of the attacks A lot of these units can either like can move solid distances and threaten like a lot of the units we've talked about have 30 inch plus threat ranges right and so You know, yes, sentinels still become a problem because sentinels are stupid Right. That that was the thing that uh, yeah, we we we should talk. So of course now What is it mere shields? We've got different warning with mere shield. Yeah, that turns off sentinels Sure, should we have that We're scurrying because you know, he has the visibility. He has the right. You can use the word you could I Maybe it's a thought right like I don't know it's tough to say I I would actually in that case favor just fixing sentinels Fixing right. I mean that we all know they're the problem So maybe just change the way that they function and then we can all go back to just playing a same game like sure Then we don't have to also like jack with their points all over the place You know Like if you if you instituted obscuring terrain being reasonably present on the board And you've got rid of sentinels silly ability to shoot anything anywhere no matter what mountain they're behind um Then then a lot of problems go away, right? Like it just like we live in a world where you can create defensive positions for your guys where they can't be alpha shot Valuable Right, like that's it changes the nature of the game Alpha strikes are bad shooting rated as the number one npe thing that people hated It would stand to reason that the combination of two factors that are like number one and number five On the npe rating when put together become real bad right and Ranged ranged alpha strikes are yes ranged alpha strikes Yes, like that's what i'm saying if people hated alpha strikes and people hate shooting in general Put the two together into an overwhelming barrage of death and i'm guessing you get something that most of us don't enjoy And and it's just obviously way more powerful like these things would have to be pointed way up To actually balance their power to like to just point to to places where then it gets silly right so um While we're at it can we reduce bliss bar barters as well. Yeah boy. Oh boy. That can't happen soon enough Um, let me a break. Okay. We all know like bliss barbs. All right. There we go. I don't care They're stupid and they're horrible and I I hope they I hope they put them up to 260 points that way never have to hate them Um, okay. I'm just that's how angry I am at them. All right Impassable uh impassable is another thing that I think absolutely Uh should be present the intent is to create channels and fighting lanes that add some potential realism to scenarios By making some terrain pieces inaccessible I love this one. This is a giant miss in the current terrain set And by the way, they know it exists because some of the faction terrain pieces have this No, yeah You know, I don't know. It's it's it's where I would be really curious to hear how it happened where we ended up You know where it's like if you had a little more time I don't know. It just seems like strange that they missed this because they do have pieces of that scattered Strange right. It's it makes no sense to me that we decided to give impassable to some faction terrain But then not make that which is obviously highly valuable Because impassable is very simple You can't move over it unless you can fly and you can't set up or move a model onto it Even if it can't fly it's just it's a dead zone in the table. Just think of it like a dead zone Right, you cannot in any way be in or on that space And it's so potent because it reduces the available game board in an interesting way not by generally shrinking But by creating yes lanes of viability Right and it makes it so when you decide to move a unit here It's skill test by moving the unit here. They can't as easily jump over to the other side here and help out the other unit Because they have to go all the way around right So and thoughtful, you know, we spent some time talking about how you know, we hate Where you get into situations that we've always been able to in this game where you have Archeon Hanging off the side of a building, you know, all that stuff This keyword allows you to just be thoughtful about, you know Able to remove a lot of that, you know, you look at trade on the board and like, okay That could potentially lead to this weird situation where cabbage is hanging off the side of this and blah, blah, blah No, just making a passable call of the day Ton of things would become impossible Yes, because then it just cleans up and speeds up the game Bryce said what would be the ruling for long shanks and impossible like with long shanks You still ignore the train because it says you ignore the terrain, but you can't end on it, right? So it already works you use you would be treated as though you had fly same with like, you know Other things that are treated as though they have life so you could you can step over it But but he has to end completely on the other side of it, right? So you can kind of corner toe over it Um And then garrison which is already impassable. This is the other thing that kills me They made garrisoning terrain in the base rules which has the impassable built into it Like you can't land on garrison terrain unless your garrison will train unless you're garrisoning it And yet again, they didn't I don't know I don't get it, but anyways It's okay. It was their first shot Take it up like do a second shot at it put out a little terrain pdf or pamphlet Heck if it means we get these rules put out a book Put out a silly terrain book, okay Charge us money for it. Do a silly cash grab fine If it means that we get the actual good terrain rules I'll accept you publishing a book I might even buy it Right, but but like really the only people who would need to buy it would be the tournament organizers You know and then the rest of the rules we'd all just absorb because it'd be these items But as long as it existed in the ecosystem fine Fine because I think it would be such a drastic improvement to the game The big changes that he made here with garrison is he set an x where that's the number of models that can garrison And models garrisoning can never be considered to be contesting an objective Which is his big changes, which is interesting. Yeah, we had incorporated that at gateway open. Yeah Jeff the to and yeah quickly realized that you it's probably a bad idea To allow Unit to you know count as 15 30 whatever models. That's also minus one hit. That's also plus one save You know like I mean that could be really advantageous Telling this much of the garrisonable feature onto the objective six inch ring and suddenly all 30 models are counting toward that thing Exactly. Yeah, so that that we went around every single table to make sure that that you know It was not going to be the case. Yeah garrison was more than six away from all the objectives Which is really easy to do in terms of you know now with the grid and these objectives You just have basically you can it might be a little bit different But I think essentially it's that three by three grid that we have now Right, three objectives three objectives three objectives with with all these different missions So you just kind of put that grid down and then orient your train around that right And and what I'll say is the I'm completely fine with that the biggest problem I have with garrisoning is that nobody knows how garrisoning works Charlie mentioned that and is right up. Yeah, it relies on this like weird subset of rules that aren't commonly adopted So my honest answer is I just rather see more stuff impassable and less stuff garrisonable and call it a day Right, but fine cover is Cover it just follows cover because cover is actually a good thing and should be in the game Like fine, right? Yeah, this is the the normal cover we're all familiar with and the Simply new I believe behind cover. I don't know if we had a 2.0 behind cover. Yeah, which is going to be absorbed into the next one But yes, like um Like but cover is valuable right like it's cool. Yeah, you put your little heroes on there Certain units get neat bonuses from it. It's it's cool. Like yeah cover's cool I think you should have some cover terrain like yep tall grass You know fields some light trees. Yeah, those are all good examples of cover, right? Cool Some scattered ruins maybe like a little a little mostly ruined building, you know, that'd be a cool cover, right? Which is like some low foundations left Yeah, good cover terrain down for it Easy and then obstacles. This is the one. I'm not sure about. I don't know if this needs to exist um, but But charlie has it. It's the one that I'm not sure The intent is to give cover to units huddling closely to walls or rocks for a modicum of defense Right, and then he's also added this thing to like save players time by having predetermined heights for terrain features So obstacle x in his rules means like it's an obstacle. So if you're up against it Right, then you get to use the behind cover and draw that bonus And then they have an obstacle x which means they're assumed to have a height of x inches So you don't like you can have curvy pieces of of Scatter or whatever, right? But if it's obstacle to Moving over it takes two inches That's the height of the thing two inches up two inches down, right? That's yeah Okay I don't know that I love it, but it's I get what he's going for Yeah, when I was working on an iteration to you guys This was one as you know that I found the most challenging to try to figure out So partly if anybody missed it they have this sidebar in the core rules where they give a visual that essentially conveys the Behind terrain rule to draw cover and they have a unit that's behind an Clearly an obstacle piece. I think they explicitly label it an obstacle piece. Yeah, but then I believe elsewhere It says you would just ignore these. Yes. It would ignore it Yeah, so you're not whereas that and that runs counter to what we've done throughout especially 2.0 Where if it's two inches up If it's two inches off the ground cool two inches up two inches down four inches off my movement move on with my life So, yeah, it's kind of the initial conditions. We're a little weird around obstacle We we don't really have perfect clarity about about this stuff right now This one does seem well No, it's it's it's better than not having it. I think but it doesn't still seem spot-on yet Yeah, I just I think having the behind cover rule that's already there in the core rules Is probably fine Like I got I got you saying behind cover behind terrain. Yeah, it's my bad. I got whatever. It's fine behind train I think if you have that rule, you don't really super need this one The other four I think are lock stock ready to rock should be part of the game Right, like they just make sense. They have drastically valuable changes to the way that the game state plays Um with with minimal externality downsides The but obstacle is a little tricky to me, but you know, whatever Okay, let's look and then faction trade is just faction training is what it is, right? You just follow the rules that it says printed. Sure, of course, okay You know one thing that you didn't have in my iteration. I just specified you know spelled out that Essentially We have wild woods We already have that built in so like he doesn't have that here But I would say that kind of would go without saying that you know Yeah, if you have literally wild woods or the old sort of the woods or anything or a forest that you've created out of whatever You can just slap on the wildwood keyword and call it a day Yeah, I mean we have that just silly that it's wild wood like again Why they chose to make it wild wood and not just obscuring in general is like so mind-boggling to me because those woods are terrible They've always been terrible. They'll always be terrible. They're the worst terrain to play with stop it Stop trying to force your bad terrain on us. Have you played with them? People who are writing these rules have you seriously played with these woods and tried to move a unit of anything through them And tell me they're playable There's no way Like I get it, you know, you want to sell your product. I understand but they're bad And you could have just made it obscuring so people could use their own home generic stuff and said wild woods are obscuring Yeah, you're right and that's probably charlie's intent here is that obscuring does the job and you just ignore the wild wood That's that's reasonable. Yeah um So at any rate And and yes as assistant ref points out it's also has to cross three inches of the woods To obscure which is like also silly so whatever like I don't like the way they implemented wild woods at all So here's just some visual examples charlie was nice stuff. He he kept some cool Visual examples so people could see like this would be obscuring and impassable. It's a giant rock You can hide behind it and you can't lay it on it because it's a big giant rock Here's some different cover examples that he has like, you know fields or ponds or you know things like that They're neat and can can be act as cover. He has little obstacles and these little rock pieces Again a couple more obscuring and impassable just different takes on those kinds of things They often tend to be rock formations, but they could be others could be big towers or or whatever Some more nice visuals of both like garrisons Right and how of course garrisons become impassable and they obscure which is nice Here's a great what I'm talking about the low ruins right like cover Cool is a cool setup for cover. I like this. I like this type of thing because when it's real low ruins like this It's not generally a problem to play with big models, you know And then obstacles right so just yeah little little walls that people can hide behind It's pretty straightforward right when you look at this stuff. You're like, yeah, okay It's like yep that all just tracks, you know And it feels pretty logical um, and these things would be very easy to just print little labels for uh, and to Uh, to like literally put the little label on the terrain There you go done You know easy peasy All right, so that's the terrain part. I'd love to see a terrain pack like this Um, somebody asked will this packet be linked in the video description? I I don't know. Where's he put the has he put this packet out somewhere? We can link it Dude tell me I'll get you the link. Thank you. Yes, then yes it will Because tyler sent me the actual packet and I like I don't want to post cabbage's material I want to reference back to his thing. I'm so you go to go get it off the the man the myth the legend okay Let's talk about self-imposed restrictions Uh, all right self-imposed Maybe getting into but one thing, you know, we talked about is my mind I was differences between comp versus say You know challenges meaning like darin watson's Gotrick challenge brendon's hard mode, you know special snowflake award challenge And formats, you know, like are there meaningful distinctions to be made between these three things? Yep Um, so nuzloc credit to aos list labs who took it from the original Pokemon person who I didn't credit here But he was the person who suggested using it in aos But if you watch aos list labs video, he credits the original person who came up with nuzloc and So like I don't I never played pokemon. I'm an old man That was I was already far too old by the time pokemon came out and found it to be Not anything I was interested in because I was in college so, uh, you know a little bit out of my wheelhouse but this was smorgans take on a self-imposed list building restriction right and his point was It was a cool thing to do You could just do this yourself you can put this restriction on yourself And that's why I talk about not all these have to necessarily be Changes to the game you can impose this yourself And I want to talk about sort of first principles and values tyler because I think that was an important part of when we were discussing this By the way, uh, if you like the terrain and if you like nuzloc hit that like button or subscribe Don't forget to do those things. We really appreciate it. Okay So clicking buttons is and always will be fun uh Tyler why would we build something with a self-imposed restriction? Let's start there uh, so I mean this someone goes back to Psychological profiles, you know player types I think both you and I have a passion You know for Kind of certain values where you know, like you're running an army That's deliberately taking the off the gas a little bit as a fun challenge You're not just interested in spamming long strikes and fulminators Let's say with the new squam cast book you'd like to try to figure out alternatives to fulminators and long strikes You know as a self-imposed challenge So, yeah, it's it's fun. It's compelling Uh, it matches certain psychological profiles and not ever it's not for everybody But like yeah, I think that that's one piece of it. It works really well in terms of awards We've seen some of that, you know domus with mid-boss meltdown. He did something like Sort of a spin off of brendon's hard mode award that he and I came up with a number of years ago His event bruce city brawls doing all these kind of cool awards It's just a kind of a way of creating, you know Award a broader set of awards is a way of creating incentives That match a broader array of player types. Yep I think there's also some value to as I mentioned earlier with elder dragon highlander It gave us sort of orthogonal way to play the game It changed a lot of the base assumptions and encouraged different things to have value and for you to cast a wider net I think there is some value in that kind of thing I don't think necessarily that this is the perfect incarnation of this But i'm interested in starting this discussion and having Having people's own ideas of how we could have an elder dragon highlander of our own a nuzlocke of our own Oh, whatever, right? And you know, there's there's a lot of different concerns that you have to to think through there um but the But I think that this kind of thing is worth exploring Even if only a challenge to yourself To think about how you list build and to put interesting restrictions on yourself So you're not just doing like Darren Watson and put out a tweet that like was basically saying everything spam I don't agree with that At all and I think if you look at a lot of the top lists, you don't just see spam Like I I get it Darren and smorgan are are a particular form of extreme johnny So they're very sensitive to this and they like finding really wacky off the wall crazy combo stuff, right? But you know, I think of a lot of the lists I see yes, there are some spammy lists out there. No doubt I'm not saying there's zero. I'm just saying I don't think that's certainly the only way to play But I do think that these things can be valuable in both dissuading Excuse me dissuading from spam Creating more versatile armies encouraging different play experiences and changing assumptions, right? One thing I told you about that yeah when melvin and I we were messing around with awards I mentioned to you that yeah, we're having a conversation today and it reminded me of this a variety pack award that I was trying to design Yep, I never felt like it quite got there But yeah, that the first principle of that was that getting tired is there were so many factions that Wouldn't see armies that actually reflected the model range of that faction and ill spam as the obvious candidate for that So that was the notion there, you know as a first principle as a value set of Let's have an award an incentive see more factions that actually represent the model range, right, which yeah, definitely relates to this. Yep So, um to me that's a big part of the Of the value to this now. You might find your own value. You might disagree with our value statements fine Right, if that's the case if this doesn't interest you, that's cool I don't I like there's I'm not in any way impugning building lists in the normal way Okay, or using the standard game rules But I think that there could be a lot of value here if we can hit upon a nuzlocke an elder dragon highlander a thing like that for us Because in all cases those became very popular Right and grew beyond just something people did for themselves right I think back to You know what? You know what I think back to like I understand nuzlocke with with pokeman But you know what I think back to because it's because I'm an old man Uh, I think back to what we call poison mushroom Okay, I don't know that reference. All right. So when the nintendo entertainment system first came out It had a very limited selection of games and my you know, like like many others My friends and I we we had one nintendo amongst us We had a buddy who had a nintendo and we would be at his house every day Playing nintendo But again, there was not a lot of games in that first year or two of it being available in the united states And certainly we didn't have a lot of money nor were our parents inclined to go buy us a lot of different games And many of the games sucked So what that meant is that we were playing a lot of super mario brothers right And when you play super mario brothers a hundred times And it's the same game It gets a little rote So you have to challenge yourself. Okay And so poison mushroom is when you treat all mushrooms and upgrades in the game as poison Oh, okay, and so you've got to run the whole game small Okay, where you can't take any hits where you die Okay, jealous. You had a better childhood clearly than I did. I missed that on this playing super mario brothers all those years Okay, keep going sure and so the Yes, thank you to my friend brian and his nintendo entertainment system. I would eventually get on board when I bought the sega genesis Which was which was my point of entry Yes, we can do a whole we can do a whole episode about that And why it's still to this day contains the second best role playing game of all time on made for computers. Okay now um But that the idea would be it's it, you know imposing this self This or putting this self-imposed challenge on yourself, right because it Because it altered the experience which you've done enough. Yeah. All right so Nuzlocke as smorgan constructed it was basically No battle regiment You could have one of only one universal item. I think he was saying only artifacts or command rates I'm saying one of any universal thing Spells prayers because like curse is in this discussion too. Let's be honest with ourselves, right? Um, sure. So, you know, you get one you get one universal thing You have the rule of three You can't you can't take any single battle line unit more than three times Every other thing is capped at two every other hero unit, whatever Maybe you could even make that capped at one, but that would have some big impacts But like whatever there's there's options and then no mega gargant mercenaries So we don't just automatically drop a mega gargant into every other faction because we feel like it, right? So there we go Can we back up? I don't feel like we've done a sufficiently good job of trying to convey some initial conditions here. Oh sure Hit me Well You said something and in our earlier call today that I thought it was a pretty good expression something about holistic So how would you try to convey? Up the hell we're on about with this from us, you know, initial conditions. Like what what is this? What what what are we are we talking about? paying warhammer hard mode Are we talking about? like I've mentioned the variety pack idea, you know, like this could be a way Like one value statement is I think we need to have more This Tournament list etc more people playing armies that actually reflect their model range. Like that's a that's a value statement That's a start. That's an initial condition what are and again, you've definitely made the point that not necessarily like I'm not sure there's going to be coherent Collective, you know consensus initial conditions to this. It's a thought experiment, but we think it's very useful and right So what do you think are what the initial conditions in your mind for this? Sure The value of this to me would be best construed in three individual sets of items Okay, or three individual points point the first it's often good to challenge yourself in building lists in different ways than you normally would in the easiest in the path of least resistance That doesn't mean hard mode. That just means thinking differently about your list and how your your Your army works and you can get different units on the table and have them synergize and use those pieces in a coherent strategy Has benefits to both how you and your opponent experience the game and how you skill up in your experience of the game right Because you are because you are having to think more thoroughly through the pieces you're including in there Okay, rather than just copy paste or whatever you happen to be doing That's point one Point two is I think these systems like this often You know, they can sometimes be construed as hard mode But I think they often what they actually do is encourage especially in an aos world how I would translate it Is it encourages a more diverse force? Okay, which diversity in this case of the different units you have on the table Has its own value in that mixed arms is as I said the sort of platonic ideal Of warhammer itself And so your game will tend to be played closer to the core assumptions Of the game Right of the way the game is meant to work And so we'll theoretically be more positive because you have leaned into this thing Okay The third is that we can tamp down on some very bad offender spam lists Right that just frankly are the least interesting things to play against Whether it be, you know eel dot exe or whatever Which by the way, there are plenty of busted broken powerful lists that don't really that would still fit perfectly fine In nuzlocke here as he construed it Okay Many of the top lumeneth lists would have no issue with this Right um knights the empty throne is having no problem in here right So again, it's not as though You suddenly have it's not as though this is suddenly a panacea That's why this is just a starting point a suggestion A like a thought experiment right of a way we could start thinking about this So so on the point about the distinctions you're making with this notion of hard mode To what degree do you This should Have as part of its baseline this this idea of deliberately scaling back your competitiveness And of course, there's some some subjectivity some gray area to that But like that that's a sort of deliberate an important element of this or or is that irrelevant Or is it a more of a potential consequence of other I just think it's a consequence. I don't think it I don't think part of the thing is let's sit around here and make this Hard on ourselves. I don't think that's the way to go People didn't create elder dragon highlander and go to singleton because they wanted to make it hard on themselves They wanted to fundamentally change the experience right most people want to walk in shoes not on glass Sure Yeah, okay like in general humans don't seek difficult experiences All right, like think about trying to motivate yourself to work out every day Weirdos. Yeah, okay And so The point being is that like that can't be the purpose or it's already a failure Because most people wouldn't do it all right The it may be a side benefit Like that is to say that it it's more challenging But challenging can be an interesting experience right I'll give you an example dark souls or whatever like rogue-like games, right Hmm Those are very hard games Okay, and they are frustrating Because they're permanent definitely definitely not for everybody clearly right But people are still very attracted to them. It's very popular subgenre right Not because it not because it's hard But because it presents an interesting challenge that they have to unlock right that's the goal And I you might say well vince isn't that the same thing no hard is original battle toads In the sewer level where you just die Right because it's too fast and it was just stupid the reaction time between the controller and your little 12 year old Brain or 10 year old brain was not fast enough to account for this stupid thing It was just one of the most impossible levels in the history of games, right? Like it's just hard to a stupidly unfun way walking on glass is not fun Hmm, okay as as any Linux taught us but People do like challenge because challenge brings that which is too Easily earned is too lightly esteemed Right all day. Yeah, and so that brings the the mental reward of I achieved this thing And so putting on these kinds of constraints can often Institute that reward that challenge reward mechanism, right? Not just for the purposes of being hard It can't be that alone. It's that plus these other benefits, right? That's what it's setting up I mean, it's certainly helping me. I'm hoping it's helping some others But yeah, I mean this is some of the details that I I mean, you know my advice I personally consider this stuff really critical Like to having trying to get an understanding of what of what and and how You know options and yeah, like It's Morgan did a little bit of this, but I find this, you know, really Important space to explore and try to get a get a sense of what we're talking about here But yeah, that was good. I appreciate that. Yeah And and the fun part about this is this can start as extremely grassroots Right Because you can just decide to use a system like this Like this is nuzlocke. This is what a os list lads. This is what smorgan created, right? But we could modify this you can decide to modify this for yourself and you can just play like this And see what your experience is you can modify this and share it out with your friends and say, hey Here's what I'm trying. Do you guys all want to give this a shot? Let's give it a shot, right? You can take this to a tournament and say I'm going to try to do the best I can With these self-imposed restrictions in place Right, you can do those things on your own. You need no permission You're not fundamentally changing the rules of the game, right? This is operating completely within the constraints of the existing rules system Right And yet it still has all of these benefits So that's and then if something becomes good If somebody finds one that's really interesting, which you know, maybe it's maybe it's this Maybe it's a very this maybe it's something completely different. I don't know Right Then it could become our elder dragon highlander Right and hopefully it's becoming clear why this is not comp But maybe could you say a little more explicitly why this is not? Yeah, it's not comp because I'm not input. I'm not comp is a top down We get an organizing body And they put a set of restrictions points balances nonsense an extra layer over the game Directly modifying points or the way match play rules work right This is a Uh, uh, this is a voluntary sort of thing that that I'm looking to have a sort of meritocracy Where the cream of the crop rises to the top Right. Very different And yes, exactly Howard said toos could create an award category for top smorglok list, which by the way, I love smorglok That's smorglok is wonderful And like, you know that that could be a thing again just a separate award You're playing your smorglok list in a normal tournament. Nobody had to change any rules Right. It's just Here it is Right, and we have a fun separate award for it. You want to you want to play to the award Make a list within this constraints. You don't don't cool Right. Yeah, people could give me you could easily envision Darren and whomever, you know getting together and Counting up with their challenge, you know, Darren smorgen. Whoever Got multiple challenges with different formats and like you said have america meritocracy and Plug and play if they if they want as we saw go trick. Yeah, I mean that that would be amazing, right So this has a lot of potential to me. So I I hope some people give it a try And donnie rongo says it's just homebrew. No, yeah, 100% homebrew. Yeah, that's what I'm saying Like let's all homebrew some stuff and see what works again. Like do this kind of thing Yeah, I mean elder direct commander was a homebrew system Right, which is the coast did not create that that's that was a homebrew set of rules Many d&d rules are homebrew rules. In fact d&d is a homebrew system Right, like we imbue too much authority and disregard too much Of what we all create, right And raxia says does this need more work? Yeah, I like I said, this is just this was his thought experiment starting point I am very much keen to I'm very much keen to see people's ideas like for this kind of thing Drop it down in the comments, right? Like put your own version of this put how you would modify this make something completely different I'm down. Okay, whatever your version is cool beans Uh, I but I would love to see some ideas for this. Um, all right. So anyways I think we should call it there. I think this has been good tyler Final thoughts Yeah, I think it'd be great Another show we could get into some of our own ideas. Yeah, what what formats or formats might look like. Yeah I think you could do a whole show on this I really do. Yeah, that'd be that'd be fun, man. Yeah, it's I find this incredibly intriguing, obviously And yeah, I think there's enormous potential and you know in in various versions of this And like I said like to me The domus award that you demanded us went meltdown what brin and stembury city brawl Others have done like the go trick challenge. All of these things are sort of along the same lines But I feel like we have barely to get to scratch the surface on this stuff And it'd be really really intriguing to see more of it in the community. Yep. Remember Aos three is good But it can be better So, uh with that tyler, thank you for going through all this with me a lot of fun for all of you out there watching Thank you so much. Don't forget to hit like on your way out subscribe if you haven't already and Really appreciate all of your thoughts. This has been a great night. Lots of chat. Lots of good comments So thank you everybody who was put throwing out some awesome comments and stuff To all of you out there. We really appreciate you watching As always We'll see you next wednesday