 Hi, everyone. Welcome to What The F is going on in Latin America, Code Pink's weekly webinar of hot news out of Latin America and the Caribbean. We broadcast every Wednesday, 9 a.m. Pacific, 12 p.m. Eastern on Code Pink's YouTube channel. Today we are broadcasting in partnership with the Honduran Solidarity Network. We're also having some slight technical difficulties due to the heat here in Washington, D.C. So I'm talking to you on speaker without a headset and we're hoping that the Wi-Fi remains stable throughout our broadcast. This past week, we saw a number of incidents related to the U.S.-backed government in Honduras. On July 18th, we witnessed the death of Honduras journalist David Romero-Elner of COVID-19 while imprisoned in Tamara National Penitentiary. He was serving a 10-year sentence for slander and defamation of former prosecutor Sonia Inés Galvez Barri. Also on Saturday, July 18th, we came to learn of body-final leader Snyder Centeno and three other members of the Triunfo de la Cruz community were kidnapped and disappeared by a group of men wearing bulletproof vests with the initials of Honduras National Police, DPI and Spanish. The DPI is the Investigative Police Directorate. It was formed years ago and trained by the United States and a unit not unlike what we're seeing in the cities of specifically important right now. So to discuss these events, we are joined today by Karen Spring. She is the in-country ground coordinator for the Honduran Solidarity Network. She was last with us on April 29th to discuss COVID-19 in Honduras. So welcome back, Karen. It's great to see you. You too, Terry. Thank you so much for having me again. So let's, why don't we start with COVID-19 in prison? And this is an international issue, quite frankly. And it is something that we saw in California. I was in California for three weeks in June and we saw a number of prisoners in San Quentin infected with COVID-19. So this is a global issue, but let's talk specific to Honduras. And it's a nice follow-up to our April conversation as well. Yeah, so it's actually important that you mentioned that, Terry, about the fact that it's going on in the United States, the COVID-19 issue in the prisons and the violations going on in the US because the Honduran prison model is becoming more and more similar to the US model because the United States is exporting its prison system to countries like in Honduras and Mexico and El Salvador and other parts of the world. So just to speak specifically about David Romero Elner's death this weekend. So he passed away, he was a Honduran journalist, a longtime Honduran journalist. He passed away of COVID-19 health complications or COVID-19 inside a public hospital in the capital city of Tegucigalpa. And David Romero was in the custody of the state. He was serving a 10-year sentence. And so the state was responsible for his wellbeing while he was in prison. And he was arrested March of 2019. So he's just been in prison for almost a little over a year. And he was being held in a military battalion. And he was put in a military battalion to serve his prison sentence because he was a high-profile Honduran journalist. And the state recognized that his life would be at risk if he was in any of the maximum security prisons which they have threatened to send him to which are basically US-style prisons that are just literally almost like they were picked up in the United States and dumped in Honduras because they look exactly like US prisons. And so David Romero was in the custody of the military and he was actually supposed to be released because in Honduras slander and defamation was decriminalized by a new criminal code that was basically became active in the end of June. And right around the time that he was supposed to be released and I'm speaking about like the criminal nature of his conviction and the criminal code of Honduras basically changed that change slander and defamation as being charges that were no longer criminal charges that required a criminal sentence. And so he was supposed to be released but right around the time that he was supposed to be released he got COVID-19 inside this military battalion and he was taken to the hospital and he had kidney failure first and then he passed away. And for many Hondurans it was very sad. Many people he had quite a large following because he's been very critical in denouncing corruption cases in the country and basically taking aim directly at the Honduran president Juan Orlando Hernandez a very strong US ally. And he was exposing all of these corruption scandals related to before he went to prison related to the highest levels of the Honduran government. And so he was a controversial figure because he had served prison time previously for sexual assault and rape. And so he's a controversial figure for many people in Honduras but for others they are some people are very clear that he was in prison in the first place on charges related to the fact that trumped up charges for the fact that he had exposed all this corruption and because the Honduran justice system is so selective and there's such a high impunity rate when the system works it's often against people that are in opposition to the government like political prisoners like David Romero like other cases environmental defenders and land defenders. And so he so many people believe that he was wrongfully imprisoned in the first place. And the fact that he contracted COVID-19 in prison is obviously a huge issue because it showed that despite the fact that the state knew he was at risk despite the fact that he was in special custody inside a military battalion the state didn't protect him and he contracted COVID-19. And so people are saying that the state murdered him because they didn't protect his life and they didn't take adequate measures to protect David Romero who was in prison but all the other prisoners that are also experiencing the same thing inside the Honduran prison system. So you mentioned a couple of things related to his imprisonment that I find one curious and the other let's follow up on with another legal incident but you mentioned slander and defamation are no longer criminal as of June 30th. Is that- Sorry, Terry, go ahead. That's okay. And so yeah, and you can just finish that your comment for me because I find it curious because that could like cut both ways, correct? That could be favorable to people criticizing the government but that could also be very beneficial to the government criticizing any opposition. Right, except the Honduran government is called the dictatorship. So it's a US-backed dictatorship and so the selective use of the justice system has been absolutely critical in imprisoning enemies of the government and people critical of the government and it hasn't gone the other way. Like you don't see opposition people successfully launching cases against anyone in the government or people that are like allied with the government and that being successful. So the selective nature of the justice system means that the opposition is much more likely to be sent to prison or to face prosecution for any sort of charges. And I think it's interesting that you talk about the fact that defamation and slander is a criminal. It's a criminal act. I mean, the United Nations, different representatives of the United Nations, the UN High Commissioner's Office in Honduras and other, the Committee for the Protection of Journalists which is the international organization has talked about the fact that that's just so, it shouldn't be a criminal charge. If you slander somebody or you defame them that should be a civil issue. It shouldn't be a criminal charge. And so the fact, so, and that really affects the freedom of expression in Honduras which is obviously already very limited because of the dictatorship in Honduras, especially the freedom of expression of those criticizing the government. So that was a big issue. And then the new criminal code came into effect. I think it was like June 24th or June 25th. And like within days of it coming into effect they decriminalized slander and defamation. And so David Romano technically was no longer able to be held because the new criminal code favored him saying that it wasn't a criminal, it wasn't a criminal charge anymore. So he should have been released but the government didn't respond. The courts didn't respond to requests for him to be released. And then within days of his request for him to be released, he contracted COVID-19. So I mean, that goes again on the fact that this was an assassination for many people because he shouldn't have been in prison in the first place based on what a lot of international standards say that defamation and slanders should not be a criminal charge. But then again, when it was decriminalized within days he was not released and he died, contracted COVID-19 and passed away. So it's really an issue of the nature of the freedom of expression in Honduras or the lack of freedom of expression. It's very much about the conditions inside the prisons which are horrific. There are extensive amounts of COVID-19 cases also reported just like in the US also reported in the Honduran prison system. But the problem is in Honduras is that there isn't any sort of functioning justice system. We're talking like a 90% impunity rate. We're talking about no legal recourse and granted a lot of populations in the US prisons also face that same issue. There are no legal recourse because of the political situation in the country and especially the criminalization of migrants and undocumented people of color. But in Honduras, I mean, the prisons are under military control and there really is no overseeing of the prison system. There's already really horrific conditions inside the prison. And I've been witness to that because my spouse was in prison in a maximum security prison for a year and a half. And I saw the impacts of those horrific conditions both in my own personal experience with visiting the prisons, interacting with prison authorities but also with Edwin, my spouse's experience of being in the prison. No running water, very limited food. And so now that COVID has hit the prisons, it's horrific and family members aren't able to drop food off for their families because they don't really feed them properly. There's no running water in some of the prisons. And so the prison authorities have said that there are around 750 COVID-19 cases in prisons around Honduras. And for sure that is, it's way higher than that. And so it's a huge concern. And David Romero's case is an example of what somebody that is in prison is facing in Honduras and also what journalists face in Honduras with the lack of freedom of expression and what happens when you criticize the government. So there's a whole bunch of issues related to David Romero's case that we could spend an entire hour talking about it, but. We should probably do another program on just what is happening to activists and false social environmental journalists, all of it. And that's all Yadjou says, that's a whole other conversation. I'm just quickly, before I ask you that my other follow-up question about how many journalists are in prison right now in Honduras, any idea? Is there any? So I mean, I don't have really the answer to that question, but there are, there is one journalist who is also a Congress member that is in prison for murder, but that's sort of like a side issue. I think that the issue of slander and defamation is, and the fact that it's criminal or used to be criminal, is what has made journalism so dangerous in the country. And David Romero's case is really the only case that comes to mind when I talk about journalists that are in prison in Honduras. But I mean, the slander and defamation charge is also being used against Congress people, opposition Congress members, like Maria Luisa Borjas, who's a Libre Congress member who basically said something very vocal against the Atala family, who is accused of being involved in the murder of the indigenous activist, Berta Cásares. You know, she faces prison time for allegedly slandering and defaming the very powerful Atala family. And so it's, I think there aren't many, I don't think there are many journalists in prison in Honduras yet, but we're very clear that imprisonment is the new, imprisonment is the new strategy of the dictatorship to go after anybody that is a vocal against the dictatorship and the government and that it's not just journalists, but it's like across all of society, anybody that's vocal. Obviously journalists at higher risk, right? Because that's their job, right? But it's a huge issue for everybody. It's a chilling, it's a chilling effect. Oh, absolutely, it's terrifying. I mean, if you and I sitting on this program, if we were in Honduras calling it a dictatorship or talking about these people in the government, I mean, they could say that we're slandering them and defaming them and then we could, I mean, now it's a civil issue, but the powerful control the court system. So obviously the court is gonna be hugely slanted in favor of the powerful and the people that you and I would maybe be criticizing or talking about. So it's very chilling and it's a horrible threat for freedom of expression in the country. A moment ago, you mentioned the Libre Party and just for our viewers, the Libre Party is the party of ousted president, Mel Zelaya, the democratically elected president who was ousted in June of 2009 by a U.S. backcoup. So just so the viewers understand what the Libre Party is. Earlier, you mentioned something else regarding David Romero that he was investigating corruption scandals and one of the other stories that broke very quietly here in the U.S. about a week ago, maybe, and I could be wrong, Karen, but was the corruption with contracts signed by the government related to healthcare and providing PPE to hospitals? Yeah, so this is, I mean, David Romero's been in prison, but he's actually also, while he was in prison, he remained the director of this very well-known radio station called Radio Global, who is also very important in denouncing the 2009 coup, like you just mentioned, Terry, that was backed by the United States government. And so Radio Global and a lot of other media outlets have been exposing the corruption scandals that have been unfolding with international money that's coming into Honduras to allegedly help the government deal with the pandemic and the effects of the pandemic. And so I think the best example of it, because there's been millions of dollars. I calculated in the first two or three months of the pandemic, so starting in March, there was $743 million approved by the Honduran Congress and or given in as like additional loans by the international financial institutions like the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund and the Central American Bank of Economic Integration and all of these financial institutions have their head offices and are in D.C. And so a lot of the decisions are made in D.C. about this money and how this money is going to these countries around the world to deal with the pandemic. But in the case of Honduras, I'm gonna give one example because it's sort of endless. There's been eight big corruption scandals related to the millions of dollars coming into the country to help the government deal. And I'm not talking about just helping the economy or helping small businesses. I'm talking about like $743 million going into the country directly for, to directly respond to the pandemic. So, equipping the hospitals, providing infrastructure, providing PPE to healthcare workers, to anyone working with the state that has to sort of respond to the crisis. And the World Bank has been gave a loan in I think early April of $20 million to this government institution and its acronym is INVEST H. And it's, I think it's strategic investments, the Honduran Strategic Investment Institute or something like that. And the INVEST H institution has been the target of all of these corruption scandals from selling masks that were buying, purchasing KN95 masks that specifically had written on the box, not for medical use. And then taking them out of their boxes and distributing them around the hospital staff and the healthcare workers around the country. And so all these healthcare workers are dying and all these physicians are dying because they're not being given the proper PPE that the government has purchased with this money that they've been given. And they're not being clear that it's not for medical use. And another one is they spent $48 million buying these mobile hospitals. So instead of investing in actual solid and permanent infrastructure in healthcare, there's been these efforts to privatize. So they've totally back spent. They've like been taking money away from the healthcare system. And this is all under the policies and fully negotiated and talked about with the international financial institutions and consultants that are sent down from Washington DC. And so they buy these mobile hospitals that are like these tents, Terry. They're like these trailers that they're trying to put up and they spent $48 million buying seven of them from Turkey. And so they had to wait for them to be sent in a boat from Turkey. They just got here, I think, it just got to Honduras like a week ago while Honduras is peaking in their pandemic. And so this invest H institution is the one that's managing all this money coming in from abroad, from outside the country this international money. And they're involved in all these corruption scandals buying these mobile hospitals that were they bought for $48 million paid upfront. And then now it's come out that they're actually only worth $14 million. So that's like what $34 million that's sort of just gone. They've also, there's been a whole bunch of scandals. And so this invest H is this main partner of the World Bank in Honduras. And the World Bank gave this invest H institution $20 million to help deal with to help handle the pandemic and provide the necessary healthcare equipment and infrastructure to respond to the pandemic in Honduras. And they're partnering with these criminal institutions that are stealing this money. They're overvaluing contracts. They're giving contracts to people that are associated with the dictatorship that are family members of Congress members of the national party, which is the party in power in Honduras, the president of Honduras is the national party and several national party individuals have been mentioned in court cases and drug trafficking court cases in New York because it's coming out that the national party is almost like a large criminal organization. And so this is who the World Bank is doing is this money that's coming from the World Bank is being fed through this government institution that's then overvaluing contracts and laundering money to these government mafia basically in Honduras. And so it's really concerning and it's especially concerning for US citizens because the World Bank is, the United States has the largest voting power in the World Bank and the United States government gives money to the World Bank. And it keeps, the World Bank keeps turning up as this really, really problematic player in international development policy. And in Honduras is just so clear how they back up this mafia criminal government that is stealing money and now in the name of the pandemic. So I'm not, I think I might be frozen, Terry. Can you see me? It's gone for us. It was just for a minute or two. You're fine. I'm just gonna send you a note in the chat that you throw. So here's, there's a couple of things, well more than a couple of things I've heard but now I just wanna touch on before we move to our, before we move to the next July 18th event but these international financial institutions this is fascinating to me listening to you talk about how they have provided funding for these contracts and basically the fraud to buy these hospitals at what did you say, 14 million but they cost 14 million but the government spent 48 million and so where's the rest of the money? The government of Venezuela, the elected government of Venezuela has been denying any sort of funding by international financial institutions to buy any sort of medical supplies in response to COVID-19 in their country and they've been denied that funding because they've been accused of corruption. And then here's the US backed government overtly defrauding the whole system. And it's just fascinating how I mean I think it's really important for those of us watching to really understand all this hypocrisy and we've had conversations about the hypocrisy of US foreign policy between Venezuela and Hungary before and then also you brought up the lawsuit last fall in New York City and now you're referring to the narco trafficking charges filed against the Honduran president's brother, Tony Hernandez and he was found guilty in November, December, I believe. So the corruption is just like oozing, it's profound and it's really important for us to be talking about this today. So the other, one of many other forms of corruption happening in Honduras today is what you and many other activists call land grabbing. And I was on a delegation with you, well several delegations with you to Honduras where that was the specific theme of land of the delegation and we visited, you know, Garifana communities on the Atlantic coast, the Caribbean coast of Honduras. And so that, let's talk a little bit about these four Garifana community members that were abducted on Saturday and how that all relates to the overall corruption and I would add, you know, the corruption that's leading to the complete privatization of the Honduran economy. Yeah, so this is a really urgent issue right now in Honduras at Ofernay put out, Ofernay is the black paternal organization of Honduras and it's an organization that represents the Garifuna people in Honduras and the Garifuna people are, they live all along the coast of Honduras right on the beautiful beaches, the Caribbean beaches. And, you know, on Saturday morning, I think it was June 18th, July 18th at six o'clock in the morning men wearing bulletproof vests that had the DPI written on the back which stands for the Investigative Police Directorate went into the houses of these four Garifuna men's houses and they kidnapped them and they put them in vehicles and they took them. So they've been forcefully disappeared. Within hours, Ofernay put out the alert that three of their members or three of those men that were kidnapped and forcefully disappeared were members of their organization. And to be members of Ofernay means that they were individuals that were actively involved in defending their ancestral indigenous Garifuna land rights. And I think, and this is a really important issue for the Garifuna because they live on the Caribbean coast. So they have these beautiful beaches and this occurred, this kidnapping occurred in Triumfo de la Cruz which is one of the I think six Garifuna communities in this beautiful bay. So they're sort of like inland bay in Honduras on in Northern Honduras. And Triumfo de la Cruz as a community has been fighting the global tourist industry for years because the global tourist industry has been trying to take away their land. And so one of the men that was kidnapped and disappeared and who still hasn't turned up that he was the elected president of this community. And he was so vocal against the government of Honduras against the global tourist industry for trying to take the Garifuna land away for the profit of these large scale global tourist developers. And so it's now, I think four days later Saturday, Sunday, Monday, four days later the communities now the Triumfo de la Cruz community and Garifuna communities all across the coast of Honduras are going on to the main road in their communities. Like they come out of their communities and they go on to the main road and they're blocking the main road and they're saying, we're gonna keep taking actions until these people turn up, until our leaders turn up and our community members are found and they're returned alive and well. And one of the things that's so important and you mentioned this in the introduction Terry is that the DPI, which are the people that they had these vests on these aren't these DPI vests bulletproof vests on when these men were kidnapped. The DPI is a new investigative police unit and it's been trained several times by the FBI. And the FBI actually I was researching to find some examples and this event popped up where the FBI was training the DPI in February of 2019 in identification of gangs and thieves and other organized criminal groups. And that was the training that the FBI was giving to this Honduran police force. And so now you have this Honduran police force that is now somehow connected to this kidnapping. And I mean, some people in the government will say, oh, they were just people that were wearing DPI bulletproof vests. But nobody in Honduras believes that at all because they know that Honduras is a narcos state and that the military and the police and the investigative police have all been implicated in these sorts of activities, the forced disappearances of murders, of torture, of people of the opposition. And so for Honduras there's no... Oh man, because what you're describing were witnessing happening in Portland, Oregon here in the United States right now. I mean, you were describing only these police units in Portland, Oregon, don't have any identification on them at all. But at least the- I mean, that happens in Honduras too. Yeah, I mean, you're describing exactly what we're seeing in Portland right now. It's horrifying. I mean, it's really a clear example of US foreign policy coming home to ruse. And trained by the FBI, that's the curious thing we need to investigate here too. Yeah, I mean, the United States has been funding their security initiatives in Central America exporting all of their policies, their militarization and their domestic policies that are alive and that they implement and not to the same degree in the United States, but now that the tide is turning in Honduras for years. And they've been funding the FBI, like the FBI gets funding to train Honduran forces and then these Honduran forces go and commit all these abuses. And just like these unmarked or these unmarked vehicles and these non-unidentified police, federal police officials or who knows who they are in Portland are kidnapping people off the streets and sort of arresting them on the streets. That's been going on in Honduras for several years. And it's been going on particularly since the 2009 coup d'etat in Honduras. And so it's been a state policy in Honduras for a long time. And so with this new incident related to these four Garifuna men, Hondurans are very clear that, yeah, they're not just these individuals that have DPI vests on. This is a state policy of them going after people that are threatening neoliberal interests or threatening the interests of the powerful and the global economic model, which in this case in the Garifuna communities is this global tourist model, these global developments in tourism. And so Terry, I mean, you've gone to see with me on the coast exactly what Triumfo de la Cruz is fighting. Snyder Santeno, who's one of the disappeared individuals has been so vocal against these hotel developments in Triumfo de la Cruz, which not only gets support from international hotel investors that are based in the US, but also the World Bank as well, which it's interesting. Again, we're talking about the World Bank and we're talking about how the World Bank is funding these really problematic figures in a country like Honduras. And so, I mean, Terry, you went to this resort that Santeno, one of the men that was disappeared, was vocal against. And so you can describe it what it was like for you as like a US citizen being in this hotel. It was amazing. We said, yeah, I went there. I didn't stay there. We did go there as part of, as an itinerary item on our delegation with you. And this was the Inrura Beach and Gulf Resort. And I was in shock when we pulled up much less walk through the property. This was five-star Caribbean resort that you would find like in the US Virgin Islands or something. It was not occupied by many people as I recall, but it was this gorgeous lobby overlooking the Caribbean. And if I recall correctly, stairs going down to a tiered, the property was terraced going down to the actual beach. And there were swimming pools and outside dining and swim up bars. And then all these villas built around this fabulous golf course, it was shocking actually. And that experience with you made it really, really clear what global capitalists would want for that coast. I mean, when you have these indigenous populations, the Garifuna community living there in their ancestral way, which is very in favor of community and the Earth, yes, is the best way to say it. And then resort investors and developers eyeing this land, this beautiful Caribbean land. They have no place on their own so they can develop this. So Terry, I'm not sure if it's me or if it's you, but the internet is not stable. I'm not sure if you can hear me. OK, so it looks like there was an issue with the internet. We're back. I have to say, I think we're having this huge, really dramatic heatwave here in Washington. And the Wi-Fi and the data are really unstable. Am I back now? Yeah, you're back. OK, I'm sorry, everyone. So I was saying, this is a really good example of poor infrastructure and the lack of investment in public infrastructure and all these privatized systems crashing in the heat. So where did the money come from? Because when we went, when you took us to Indora, it was not a Hilton. I don't believe it was a Hilton hotel at the time. And we were questioning, where did the money come from to build this? And in part, we thought it was perhaps drug laundering money. And now it appears to, and now you're saying it's World Bank money. And perhaps, I don't know. And then did it get sold? Did it get built and then sold or? I mean, so I think there's a couple of things. So the World Bank helps finance it. But there's a whole bunch of different sources of money and investment coming in to the hotel. And I'm not an expert on the global hotel business. And so I'm not really sure how franchises work. But I think that Indora is now a Hilton, part of the Hilton chain. I don't really know how that works in terms of franchises and owning the, I don't know, anyways. But the Hilton has its name on the Indora beach and golf resort. And so the World Bank actually sent money to support the Indora beach and golf resort through a Honduran bank that is called FICOSA. And if anybody knows anything about Honduras, FICOSA is one of the three largest banks in the country. And it's been implicated in so many issues related to land struggles and natural resource and struggles related to natural resources. So for example, FICOSA is the executives and one of the families that owns FICOSA is the family that's being implicated in Bertha Casadiz's murder. And Bertha Casadiz is a well-known indigenous activist in Honduras. They were also the World Bank funded FICOSA to then fund a private Honduran African palm company named Dinant Corporation that has been implicated in the murder of over 100, if not 150 campesinos or small farmers in another region in Honduras, again, on the north coast of Honduras. And so FICOSA, sorry, the private arm of the World Bank, which is called the IFC, the International Financial Corporation, gave $14 million through the FICOSA Bank, one of the largest banks in Honduras because a lot of these international institutions work through the banks in Honduras, which are all owned by very wealthy Honduran families. And so the family that owns FICOSA is not only do they own the bank, but they probably have their own villas, and that's their vacation home. They probably have a place where they can land their helicopter close to Honduras so that they can enjoy a weekend in the pools on stolen Garifuna lands in the Hondura Beach and Gulf Resort and then go and play a game of golf if they want. But these wealthy Honduran families need international backing to give their projects legitimacy and also to bring tourists to Honduras in order to stay in these resorts. And so having, teaming up with the World Bank is part of legitimizing the economic investments of these wealthy Honduran banks and these families that own the wealthy Honduran banks that then enjoy these tourist developments along the north coast. And it's also about bringing names like the Hilton is also another way to legitimize this tourist industry in Honduras under these really difficult human rights issues that nationally that are playing out in Honduras and this narco government. And so these four Garifuna men that were kidnapped were coming up against that very powerful global tourist industry and coming up against these investments promoted by the World Bank and coming up against the global tourist industry that doesn't really care that they're stealing land from Garifuna people or indigenous people along the north coast that doesn't care that the indigenous people, the Afroindigenous Garifuna people never consented to their presence on their collectively owned land. And they don't care that the expansion of the second phase of their hotel resort or their golf course is actually evicting an entire community. And we actually went to that community, Teri. I don't know if you remember, but it was called Barabieja. It's another community, right? It's one of the six communities, I think, that are affected by these all these tourist developments in this bay. And we went in the morning we spent in the Garifuna community that was saying, no, we don't want. You're not taking our land to expand your stupid golf course. And then we went to the Endura Beach and golf resort. Do you remember? And Barabieja at that time was they were basically being forced from their land. So there were a few people living there, there were still people that were like, no, we're not leaving. This is our land. We have an ancestral title dating back to the 1800s. And so I'm sure you remember that because it's like this stark difference is quite powerful for people when they see it. It was, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I think right before we went and visited Barabieja hope there had been, was there an attempt to burn that community out or bulldoze their, the remainder of their homes. Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah, I think they were trying to evict them saying that, and they needed to evict them and get them off the land and get them, get their houses away so that they could expand this golf course. Yeah. I mean, you know, in being there and hearing their story, it's just and hearing, you know, I'm talking about it again today. It's so, it's like the 21st century version of your westward expansion here in the United States. I mean, just brutally removing people from their land for economic interest and development. So, so listen. No, go ahead, I'm sorry. No, I was just going to say that. So one of the men that's disappeared is named Snyder Santeno. He's an Oferne member, very vocal about against this global tourist, these, the global tourist industry backed by that works alongside that partners with the Honduran, the powerful economic elite in Honduras. He was very vocal and I went to a meeting with him with the secretary of human rights in the Honduran government in February. And he was saying, you know, something needs to happen. This is not sustainable. Something bad is going to happen. He was warning people, you know, like the government has violated our property rights. We have an international court ruling, which is another issue, but very important because Oferne fought for in the inter-American court on human rights and they won. And the government of Honduras was found that they had violated the collective property rights of the Garifuna people in order to bring about this global tourist development. And so, but the government, the sentencing was in 2015, the ruling and the government of Honduras hasn't respected it. And there's been no consequence because the tourists keep, you know, there's few tourists, but the tourists keep going to this beach resort. And Snyder was saying to the Honduran government, like something bad is going to happen. And, you know, and this is what has happened. He's been disappeared and it's been four days and we don't know where they are. The communities are combing the region, looking for them, seeing if maybe they're hurt and they can't, and maybe they've been hurt and thrown somewhere. Maybe, you know, they've been killed. They're taking the road. They're demanding the Honduran government act because we've, the United States government has sent millions of dollars to the Honduran government to sort of deal with all of these insecurity to make Honduras more secure for Hondurans. But then the Honduran state's not responding adequately to find these four people, to find these four Garifuna men. And so it's really concerning. And we have a lot of hope that they're still alive, but, you know, I really hope that people get the sense of what these four Garifuna or what these three, at least because they were members of OFRNA, were up against and the very powerful global, international global tourist industry. So, yeah, I want to wrap up our conversation before I, here in the first world quote unquote, U.S. please, my wifi again, do this heat wave. What can we in the United States do to pressure, put any pressure on our government on the activist community here in the United States to fight for the release of these four men? So it's really important that people know that, you know, when somebody's disappeared in Honduras like this, what the Hondurans, what Hondurans do in an organized manner is they put as much pressure on the government so that the criminal structures or the government entities that have, that are holding these people feel the pressure and then are forced to release them. So action is really important. And I'm glad you brought it up, Terry. So people can go the Honduras Solidarity Network on their Facebook and Twitter, which is Honduras Solidarity Network, have an action where we're asking people to literally just enter their information and an automatic letter gets sent to the Honduran government demanding that they investigate and that these four men are returned healthy and well and unharmed to their community. So people can take that immediate action like right this minute, it takes two seconds, they can act now. We're also asking people to contact the State Department and contact their congressional, well, more of their congressional representatives and ask them to act and to pressure the Honduran government and the State Department as well over the forced disappearance of these four, Garifuna men. We will be putting the Honduras Solidarity Network, we'll be putting out a trend or a draft of a letter that people can send to their Congress people that should go up sometime today so that people have a really good, just a letter that they just have to fill out the information and send to their Congress people. So that can all be found on our Twitter and our Facebook, Honduras Solidarity Network. Okay. I'll be sure to put it in the comments once we have our, once we have the video recorded, I'll put all of that for our viewers in our, in the comment section so they can easily find it. And I'll also post information on Obrone, who bear to cast human rights in Honduras Act and some general historical information on the Garifuna people of the Atlantic coast of Honduras because these are all really great things that we touched on in our conversation and each is worthy of its own conversation with you. And I hope you'll come back and keep us updated on all of this. So is there anything else before I let you go? Is there anything else that should be said in our conversation this morning that we've not touched on or? I don't think so, Terri. I just think the action, I mean, Black Lives Matter is a huge issue right now in Honduras, Garifuna Lives Matter as well. And there's a lot of links and the Garifuna face a lot of racism in Honduras and the disappearance of these men are part of it. So I just, like I already said, I think the most important thing is that people take action now. It, you might be able to, we might be able to make these men appear with like a live and unharmed. So that's the most important thing, Terri. Great, and thank you for making the connection with Black Lives Matter that it isn't just a domestic issue here in the States. It's an international issue and really specific to the global South. But if Black Lives Matter here at home, they matter across the globe as well. So thank you, Karen. So great to see you and talk with you again. And let's stay in touch and we'll have you back for some follow-up conversation. Great, thank you so much, Terri. Again, thanks for the invitation. It's an honor as always. Thanks for all your work. Thank you, thank you for all your work. We'll see you next time. Okay, thank you. Okay, have a good one. You too, bye-bye. Bye.