 Excellent. Welcome back after our afternoon break. Right now we are going to welcome Annie Noonan to come and talk with us about recruitment and retention and given your long tenure in state government would welcome you to just help folks who are sitting around the table or watch from home to know who you are and how you've come to have a deep understanding of this issue. Well thank you very much. And Annie, feel free to take off your mask. I am vaccinating you. Thank you very much. Thank you committee members. Welcome for some I know others I'm meeting for the first time. My name is Annie Noonan. I currently work in state government. I am here today not in that capacity. I'm here today in a very different capacity reflecting my prior work history in and around state government. I was asked to and I have copies of my testimony which I'll turn in at the end. Thank you senators. I was asked to speak today on behalf of Montlabor community members of the VSEA Vermont Troopers Association. I do believe my comments would also represent sentiments of many Vermont Annie members. My perspective on the issue of retirement changes, recruitment and retention of state government is founded in my 30-year career at VSEA, 15 of those as executive director. In that role I served as director, chief negotiator, head lobbyist for VSEA which during those years included representing the members of the VP who are now with VTA. I monitored and lobbied on the state employee retirement plan and served on study committees including those that did make changes to the retirement system over the years. Following those years of VSEA I served six years as the Vermont Commission of Labor from 2001 to 2017. In that capacity I oversaw workforce development, unemployment compensation, economic and labor market information and this workforce development board. In that capacity I worked with almost all of Vermont employers in the employer community in every county across the state. Magnitude of the loss in the spring of 2020 as a result of COVID has had no precedence since the end of World War II. More than twice the number of jobs were lost during March and April of 2020 than during the Great Recession of 2007 through 2009. COVID related issues, job loss, childcare loss, erratic schedule schedules and fear of the continuing virus are keeping current workers out of the labor force today. In addition economists were already noting the lack of entry into the workforce for many years prior to the COVID collapse either due to job skill, lack of job skill, lack of job opportunities particularly in minority and rural areas, lack of confidence or over commitment to non-work activities such as electronic games. Vermont's economic engine of Chittenden County and the Connecticut River area near Dartmouth and to a lesser degree parts of central Vermont have skewed Vermont's wage and job numbers higher than what the other counties have experienced. Been traditionally harder for Vermont's other counties to recruit and retain employees. I am seeing this every day in my job in state government as a labor relations manager. In my current role I oversee the recruitment and retention of a small state department approximately 175 employees with a mix of professionals, attorneys, law enforcement officers and administrative staff. Since April of 2020 we have seen an average number of turnovers but a very limited number of applicants in almost all counties. When examining the demographics in the general workforce we see the difference in the generational variation from baby boomers to Gen X to millennials to Gen Z. The largest percentage of the workforce in state government falls into the millennial category at this time and studies show that 92% of those that group of employees indicate that money and benefits are their top priority when choosing an employer. While Vermont state government has good wages we are often less competitive than private employers except in the area of benefits and that has been our way to secure employees and talent to the public sector. If the retirement plans are overhauled and redefined to make them less attractive to applicants I believe that we will not be able to repeat as we should for the best and the brightest nor keep our Vermont children here nor those who come to school in Vermont for college. Product underfunding to the actuarial recommendation has plagued Vermont's readers. Our public employee unions warned of those adverse consequences as far back as when I was working with VSEA while employees contributed their share of the funding that was asked of them. I applaud this committee for whatever efforts you are making to thoroughly examine all the factors that created the current fiscal problems but recognize that the problem was created by the employees the fact that employees are living longer should not be held against them. Unfortunately it is clear to me that state employees, troopers and teachers don't feel that their voices are being adequately heard and I believe the collaboration in determining whatever changes you need to make is critical in order to avoid the erosion of employee morale and trust. I'll go off script here for a moment to share with you that during my tenure at VSEA we were seeing very large rises in the health insurance plan so much so that employees wages, COLA increases were being immediately eaten up by the premium increases. We spent a 40-day period of time with a mutually chosen consultant who brought two actuaries with her, Mary Harrison out of the Midwest and we worked with them and over a 40-day period made structural changes to the health care plan that resulted in low single digit increases to that plan for many years including as many state employees here will recall premium holidays that were occurring sometimes as many as four times a year but that was a very very deliberate collaborative process where employees if someone you know if either management or the employee group seriously objected to a particular change we moved on until we found enough changes that would bring us the money that we needed to bring that plan into cost containment compliance. So I do you know I do urge the collaboration for whatever you're working on to continue. Many long-term employees are talking about leaving state government. I don't think that that is a surprise to you at this point. My friends and colleagues are saying that they are watching what changes may be on the horizon and that they are ready to leave if adverse proposals are adopted. The exodus of employees from their position in every agency department in school district will have a devastating effect on Vermont public services. The knowledge skills and institutional memory of long-term employees and educators will be lost as well their crucial role in mentoring and assisting new employees coming into the workforce. The process should not push forward changes to the plans that are unfair to employees who have due to financially contributed as required to the system for many years with the expectation of being able to enjoy the rewards of their dedication and service in many many difficult roles and situation in state government and in the teacher community. This crisis as you know has did not occur overnight. Proposals do not have stakeholder support should not be adopted. It's critical to identify options with state employees, troopers and teachers at the table to find the solutions that do not demoralize and potentially break the trust with public employees. Thank you for allowing me to testify today. Thank you, Amy. Any questions, comments, responses? Yes, I'm a state employee. Just from your perspective in state government, what are you seeing in terms of the demographic challenge, demographic factors that might be influencing the retirement situation? So I think it's on both ends of this spectrum. I think the more senior tenured employees are looking at the proposed, for example, the proposed increase in the age component. Many people saying I don't want to work till age 67. I also think at the younger end, you see employees who are not necessarily as committed to one employer as my parents were, as many of us in this room were, where we came to an employer and we're glad to be there for 30 years or longer. So I think it's a shift in both attitude towards employment. It's also at the younger end of the spectrum, but I also think it's a shift at the older employees who are saying, you know, at this point, I'm tired. I would like to be able to do something with else besides work and enjoy some retirement years. I don't know that that's necessarily anything more than just an observation, but I do, I do interact all day long with 175 of our employees in my department and can I ask them how they feel about things? How are they looking at what's happening with the pension discussions? A good friend of mine left DCF, a very talented manager in DCF, left because she was so concerned about what was the potential potential to the plan. She was fully vested, but a young employee like a mid-50s, another very good friend of mine is an engineer with state government and has fully vested could go and said to me just last weekend I'm waiting to see what happens with the pension plan, but I will go if I think things are going in the wrong direction. That employee probably was planning on working seven more years for state government, but as an engineer she has other options and she's fully vested. What we don't want to see happen is people who are really important to the public service delivery system in this state leave state government because they don't know what's happening or they're fearful of what's happening. I think to the extent that this committee can find the best balance possible to address the fiscal issue of the plans, which I know that is what your main goal is, but I also believe too that don't lose sight of the fact that we may lose some very important and critical body of knowledge, institutional knowledge and skill set if people feel that these changes are untenable. One of our charges through acts so many projects to explore how any structural benefit changes impact women specifically in the workforce and knowing that the majority of people receiving a pension from these two systems or systems are given insight or thoughts on how that might impact the female workforce with recruitment or attention. I think we're having that issue. Thank you. I think that's a very good point. State government, the split of women to men in state government is pretty much what I know in terms of the education community. It's predominantly women. In Vermont state government our issue right now is keeping people keeping women in the workforce as a result of some of the challenges that they're facing with childcare, lack of childcare. I mentioned erratic school schedules, you know, kids are in, they're out, they're in, they're out and we, you know, I think most people, probably everybody in this room had hoped that by this point where we are today in August of 2021 that we'd be further past this virus crisis, but we're not. Our issue right now is trying to be as creative and flexible with our employees who can potentially work remotely, telework, and Suzanne, Secretary of Administration Suzanne Young has been very supportive of asking the agencies to look at that to a large extent. It is, as you can imagine, in my view, is a woman's issue because they generally have the, the bulk of the obligation for, for childcare and elder care too often. So I think that we're lucky that we have a leadership in state government that is indicating telework think through think how you can make this work people. And so I think that's true. I think in the education community, when teachers have and paraprofessionals and school support staff have to be into in the, in the building, you're going to face some of the exact same challenges we are. You're a more difficult time in terms of retaining employees, I believe, not necessarily because they don't love what they're doing, but they are faced with so many challenges right now with the collapse of childcare openings and all of that. So it is these recruitment and retention problems in Vermont are difficult anyway. I was looking, you know, if you've not looked at the Department of Human Resources workforce reports, they're fascinating. They really are. They capture so much incredibly good information. And I went back and I started reading from, I took randomly the other night, I took like seven reports going back to 1996, 1999, 2001, I started reading through trying to get a sense of what we were looking at for changes. And it, and there are times when the turnover in state government is as high as 12%. But that's, and then I looked at where that placed us in regard to other New England states, because that's the comparative model that is provided in those reports. And for the most part, except for some years, we have lined up very closely to our term rate with other, with other states percentage wise. But there have been some troubling years in Vermont, in terms of recruitment and retention. And, you know, when DHR took a look at that, they were looking at, to a large extent, the lack of applicant pool. And that's what, you know, in terms of the recruitment issues, that concerns me a lot in terms of Vermont lack of applicant pool. I saw a statistic, I said, I think that said there were 4.1 applicants right now. Frankly, from some postings we just did, we just posted an IT position pay grade 22, which Eric knows, because he's in state government, it's the pay grades go up to a pay grade 30. So 22 is a pretty, is a pretty good range for getting into a good salary and we have benefits. Two applicants. It was posted for, it was posted widely for like 20 days to applicants. And, you know, we, that's not uncommon. Attorneys in our non Chittenden County area, sometimes two applicants, Bennington Wyndham, two applicants, Caledonia. So it's challenging to get people to apply. And that will be our problem, and we have to really dig into getting, as you've heard the governor say, getting more people to Vermont, getting more people into the workforce and being the best, you know, public sector needs to be able to compete as an employer. And I think everybody here who works in government agrees that we would be really in tough shape. We can't have a good ability to recruit for ourselves. So I just have a question about the balance between, I mean, we talk about retention and recruitment kind of together, but they're, and I'm not sure that this is true, but the way I see it is that they might be a little bit different in terms of what you were talking about people now who are applying for jobs are not certainly thinking about staying for 30 years. And we have the issue of people who are, who've been here for a while, who are thinking about their retirement and about staying. And then you have the issue of people who are trying to recruit who might not be thinking that I know I just told a couple of people last weekend who had applied for state jobs and the salaries were less, the health benefits were pretty comparable to other places. And the retirement benefit was clearly, and they both said, I don't need to think of our retirement now. I'm 27 and 32 years old. I need the money right now. So how do we balance, how do we create a system that balances the fact with the people that are already there so that nobody gets, there's the brunt? Well, let me first say that one of the things we do when we are meeting with candidates and interviewing people and we talk a salary, generally salary, we always show what the benefit structure is in terms of the percentage of your salary. And people are often amazed. And, you know, I have this opportunity of kind of looking like the, kind of like the old grandmother type, which I am. And I can say to them, listen, you're young. And I've done this with, I think BGS should actually probably give me some sort of an award or plaque as I'm talking to the younger employees telling them, listen, there's a lot of opportunity in state government. And you're young now, because a lot of the kids that are coming through for their maintenance and custodian positions are younger. And I say to them, listen, somebody else might think it looks good. Somebody else is, you know, offering $2 an hour. Let me remind you about your benefit structure. And I tell them all about it. And we do the same thing when we are interviewing people and we're looking at trying to make sure that they've caught somebody's attention. And we talk a lot about those benefits. And I think that that has made a difference. I think I've actually, as I said, I think I've convinced a couple of kids to stay with BGS. And I know that I've convinced a couple of younger employees to come to us. And I've said, you know what, when I came to state, to state government, you know, when I was talking, you know, in the labor position, I said, I was talking to younger employees, I used to go down and we would have those conversations about what's working, what's not working, you know, and money is not necessarily always the driver for people. And I think that we've learned a lot through probably the only big bright spot of the pandemic is that we've learned that we, you know, that that telework can work. And we should trust our employees. I mean, I fought for so many years to get the state of Vermont to adopt the telework policy. I'm going back many, many, many years. I've been out of ESEA for 12 years. And I'm going to say it was probably 25 years ago, I was knocking on DHR's door and showing them the policy I'd written. And they were like, no. And some of that was just like, Oh, what if they fall on trip? I could fall on trip in the office too. You know, it was always one thing or another, but it is the one bright spot of what we've learned. Motivating employees in terms of getting them to come in, you know, money, communications. This is a generation of kids of my say, kids, people, young, young adults who, you know, want their youth, they want to communicate and they want answers. They're so used to flipping up a phone and getting an answer to whatever they're asking, you know, whether it's a restaurant review or anything they want, they want that immediate answer. And when they send an email and there's non responsive, it's, you know, it's not responded to, they're just like, I think they're shocked, you know. So we've had to talk with our managers and supervisors about responding to people. Do not, do not walk away at the end of the day. I don't care if it's 430. If you've got emails from your staff that you haven't responded to, please answer your staff. Please make sure you're responding. This is a generation of young workers who crave that. And they also crave their downtime, some of their personal time. Thank God that there's a little bit more perspective on work-life balance. I think we're all learning that, but I think younger employees are very concerned about that. But again, I think given some of what we're looking at, money is a driver and it is allegedly the driver from millennial. Now, I wonder that report was done a year or so ago. So I wonder if it would be different today post COVID, if people have perspective has changed, it might be. But student loan debt is a real thing to and professional loan debt is a real thing for people going to law school, medical school and stuff like that. We have to make it make people be able to afford to confirm on. That's another storyline. Telework has expanded in a lot of places and it's open to doors for people to come work in this year. At the same time, I think people are going to be more drawn if they have quality school systems, good teachers, and a well-functioned government. Do you have any thoughts on how the provision of critical public services are needed by the public? You look at employers statistics of how much it costs them to train employees and that when employees leave shortly after they're employed, like what it costs. And there was actually a stat in one of the workforce reports of DHR that talked about that. And in positions like Trooper positions, for example, when they're sending people off to the academy for weeks and weeks and if they don't stay the cost of all of that. So I think that we need to get people into the system and into Vermont. Telework's a great option for us and I think we're going to see an expansion of that. I also think that we have opportunities and I want to remind folks here who are in the legislature and policymakers that if people are coming into Vermont and they are, for example, English second language, if they fall within any of the categories of the workforce integration and opportunity act administered by the Vermont Department of Labor through the U.S. Department of Labor Fund that immigrants, for example, automatically qualify for workforce training at no cost to the community or to the state. They're going to be able to be eligible for that. We owe a funding for workforce training. What can we do creatively? We can actually take a look to see how do we support new people coming to Vermont and refugee communities and all those folks because there's lots and lots of money that comes into Vermont from the U.S. Department of Labor for workforce and training. And it's just a matter of whether it's apprenticeship or specific work classes. It's all there and I think that we need to look at utilizing that money in a better way and I don't think that answered your question. Let's hope we'll look. It's just our larger demographic challenge can go a long way. So I thank the committee for the work that you're doing and I know that what you're doing is a challenge and lots and lots of stresses on all of you individually from the work that you have to do to try to figure this problem out. And I do think that I applaud as I said on some of these committees over the years. I remember sitting with Bob Greenmore and Jane Woodruff and lots of people in this room for a long time working in retirement over structure or overhaul. So I know it's easy. I applaud the work that you're doing and I just offer the perspective of collaboration and engagement is really important and trust among your community is really important here too. So thank you for the opportunity to share a few words on behalf of Vermont Labor. Thank you. And I will say that I'm sorry that Leona Waj, who's a state employee with the armed corrections in Springfield, was not able to meet your today. They hear your testimony. Thank you. And do look at the state Department of Human Resource Workforce reports. They're fascinating. They're a tremendous wealth of information. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.