 Hello and let's talk about wrestling and India's farmers. A few days ago, on January 10th to be precise, a dungal was held at the Gasipur border of New Delhi in support of the farmers who have been protesting for more than 50 days. As we know, the farmers are demanding the repeal of the three agricultural laws which they feel will drive down the prices they get for their produce and will also allow greater corporate role in agriculture. Now, from the very beginning, a distinctive feature of these protests has been the fact that a large number of sports persons have joined in. Some of them have said they will return their medals, many of them have visited protest sites and India's wrestlers are no different. In fact, wrestling is a sport with deep roots in agriculture with very close connections to agriculture. And today we have with us Leslie Xavier of NewsClick News to talk about what exactly these links are and the significance of wrestlers joining in these protests. Here is what we have to say. Thank you Leslie for joining us. So a lot of curiosity was sparked by the dungal that took place in the farmers protest. But something we've been talking about over the recent episodes also is the fact that sport and especially wrestling very closely connected to India's agriculture sector. But a lot of people don't know really, really don't know details about it. So could you maybe start by taking us through the kind of links that are there between that sport specifically and India's was that diverse agriculture sector. Well, if you look at Indian sport in general, there is that indelible link with the villages and I mean with villages means with agriculture because that's the predominant economy that's prevalent there. So, last month when many prominent athletes, former Asian medalization champions, Olympians, when they walked up to New Delhi to the parliament to return their awards, Arjuna awards, Kail Ratna, Gurnacharya. And it was, I mean it was an act of solidarity with the farmer struggle. But it was again, I mean at that point we had discussed this also that it was, I mean show off. I mean it was evidence proof that the link that farming has, I mean agriculture has with Indian sport and what fuels Indian sport is there, it's there in the villages what fuels Indian sport is actually the farmers who are protesting there at the Delhi waters. So, last year, last month's march to the parliament was led by Kaltar Singh, a former Asian champion, Asian Games champion in wrestling, a great wrestler of his days. And of course, I mean at his peak, he was considered the pride of Punjab as well as a country. So, Kaltar represents that quintessential wrestler, if you ask me, I mean from, I mean be it UP, be it Punjab, be it Haryana, be it Maharashtra. Everywhere if you look at it, countries top wrestlers or countries wrestlers have been supplied by the villages and indelibly their families are farmers or connected with farming or connected with cattle dairy. That's how the narrative has been right through, even in ancient times, even pre-independence era when the star wrestlers of the country were under the care of local kings. If you look at gamma for instance, so though these kings or these, I mean the which of those era where the patrons of wrestling as such, but the wrestlers were always supplied from the villages, wrestlers were always, I mean, invariably from a farming family, from farmers, among farmers. And so that connection of farmers with wrestlers because they consider them as one of them and also they consider them as elite among them that way. So, sports or sports persons in villages, they look up to sports persons as people who have stood out, who have fought the odds and who have got out, but not necessarily getting out of the culture as such, but got out to bring out that culture to a larger. So, the idea is, apna village ka naam roshan karne ke liya, that's the thing if I can say it in Hindi, that to bring the name of our village outside onto the outside world and show them that we are strong people, and that is India's strength in any case, agriculture, as being our economy's strength as well, which sadly the governments have failed to understand or failed to recognize and have been devising policies which are going completely against it. So, that connection has been there from historic times and it continues even now and the fact that this dangle was organized at the Ghazikur border and organized by the mats for the dangle, for instance, was supplied by Chandgi Ramakara, which is in Civil Lines, Old Delhi. And wrestlers were from all over the Akhadas that has strewn across Delhi because most of the elite Akhadas are in Delhi. So, but these wrestlers belong to villages in Punjab, Ariana, UP, so they were here and almost all of them, post-bought if you look at videos of reactions of these wrestlers, post-bought they were all saying the same thing, which is, I mean, asking the government, urging the government, demanding to the government that listen to the farmers and repeal those laws which will ultimately kill the farming sector in the country. Absolutely. Leslie, in this context, could you maybe take us through the larger culture of dangals and Akhadas itself and in terms of how they're rooted in the local economy, for instance, and how exactly they function and maybe even what is their connection to when we talk about wrestling in the context of, you know, say the Olympics or Asian games, so how do they sort of feed it to each other as well? That's something that's quite interesting. Well, for a common Indian that way, who are not connected to wrestling and I mean not belonging to the hotbeds of wrestling, so to speak, the popular general idea of dangle has been provided by the movies, the ones that came out in Bollywood. But then it's also a slightly incomplete idea that's been provided because the story narrative and all that obviously was glamourized or centered around certain characters. But dangle, the economy of dangle is pretty much connected with the rural economy, which is centered around agriculture, like I said, and also milk production and I mean related industries, farming related industries. So when I mean dangles are organized alongside festivals, if you look at through the through the year and season invariably skips the height of summer. So it's, it's either postman soon or early spring. I mean, towards me, and both of the both, both these seasons happened post hours. And invariably, if you look at across the villages. And if you look at Punjab, for instance, almost all the villages organized their local dangle. Where I mean small big, it depends. Of course, at the larger scale at the national level. There are in case that happened. The national industrial wrestling championships that happened in case they happen and many huge mega case the bouts are there dangles are there where where price per second go up to one crore. That involves a lot of sponsors, local companies are involved. And at the same time, landlords are involved and also farmers and large and small they also chip in the smaller dangles is what fuels. The Indian wrestling at the basic level at the grassroots level because if you look at a card, the wrestlers who come in are from poor background, even the. I mean, now if you look at Bajrang Pune for instance, India's number one wrestler at this moment, former world number one is currently ranked world number three, and World Championship medalist as well. So he comes from a farming family and he also mean farming family which was not well to do at all and is wrestling as fuel brought the family up from poverty. He was one of the first persons to react by the way on social media, supporting in solidarity. And it's surprising because generally Bajrang stance has been pro government on social media but then this this time they say I mean I mean many athletes have come out that way. And that's the connection. So, a typical wrestler in an Akhada, I mean, their wrestling career is fueled by these angles. So they make money off of this angle for their diet, and also, possibly if you're earning well enough they could give it back and give back to the family as well. Because their wrestler's diet requires a lot of money, the bad arm and the necessary protein pulses and all that. So, it's a self serving idea where you earn from the bouts, and you put it back into the sport and you grow enough so that you earn from the about and you put it back into the family into your life, bring it up. So, I, during my wrestling days I was, I mean obviously the focus was a little different because we were, I mean, academics was big too. So, I couldn't find myself training in an Akhada year and attending the angles as such, but my brother my younger brother when he when his time came to push this game up. Since I had competed by then in North India quite a lot, I had some contacts and all that. So, we decided that we'll give him some time in North India to understand to bring his wrestling up as well. So, he was based in Patiala, at Guru Mook's Akhada in Patiala, and also, intermittently he was training at the Sai Centre in Patiala also. He was not a camper there, he was not part of the national camp, but he was training there. And so, from the Akhada, a team used to go for villages when they invite come. So, the organizing committee of a particular dangle would pay the Akhada also a blanket amount of money to supply its wrestlers. And so, the Akhada earns from this thing, from sending its wrestlers to a dangle, and then the wrestlers travel to the dangle venue. And I happened to accompany him in one of those angles. So, I specifically mentioned the experience in that one. So, it was a very remote, related in fact so remote that I don't remember its name and it's been a little back also. It was I believe in 2003. So, we reached there and it's a huge field and it's very clear that agriculture has happened there. And it's possibly between crops. And it was in May, so out of summer, so possibly post monsoon they would, around just before monsoon they would be planting the crop, whichever crop they were cultivating there. So, huge field and in the middle of it, they had set up the dangle and people had convened there and it's an informal setup, there's no stands as it is a partitioned cordoned off area where the wrestlers are supposed to wrestle. And it's loose soil, but it's not exactly an Akhada soil either. So, it's semi yard. So, it's the idea of among wrestlers is that this soil will test you because if you fall you might get hurt as well. So, that's that idea of soil and wrestling and strength from the soil and all these are, and it's very palpably evident when you are there in that thing, the energy, the idea, the philosophy of wrestling, rural wrestling and Indian wrestling in general. So, as a wrestler you walk in, so my brother walks in and you stand in a line and opponents can choose each other based on their body weight and the kind of challenge that you can expect from the opponent. And so, the idea is that you go and tap his hand to basically do this, that means you are challenging for the bout and then they are given time to warm up, put their jangias on and come back in. And then the wrestling happens and wrestling is, I mean whoever wins it's done. So, there is no bout timing as some bouts go longer, some bouts go shorter and winner and loser gets the money and immediately. So, the organizer pays money. So, if you are an entry level wrestler, so at that point my brother was an entry level wrestler, junior and coming in and initial days in the Akhada etc. So, if he wins he would stand to get 250 to 500 rupees and if he loses again immediately money is paid for the appearance, it's basic. So, if you are losing about at that level, at the junior most level you will get under rupees. So, that's more or less the bus fare or the diet, I mean food for the day or something like that. So, it's not a wasted effort for the wrestler to travel all the way to wrestle as well, experience gain plus some pocket money for the travel. So, this again the money given to the loser that also shows where this idea is organizing of a dangle is coming from. It's basically organizing something to ensure that the sport is alive, continues to be alive. The wrestlers thrive, I mean they make a living, whatever small or big the living is, from there they could make that living. In turn, what are the farmers getting it because the crowd was predominantly farmers. I'm sure at that point they must have been some local landlords or businesses who would have pumped in a little extra money to the association who is organizing it for organizing its assets. But then money was also pumped in because they're paying for the entertainment. So, it's a release for them because you're watching sport and wrestling is a great sport, a great spectator sport and after a hard toil in the field through the season you are getting something to celebrate it. And it's very evident that 90% of the crowd over there were poor. And one of Leo's teammates, one of my brother's teammates, he was again not a top level wrestler as such. He had a slightly longish bout, he entertained the crowd and he made some nice aerial throws, bout was tight and possibly lasted for around 12 minutes to 40 minutes and then victory. So, victory happens and then the old guy would come in and then the old guy had taken him, took him around the jungle venue where he had a small tower like thing. And so these villages, I mean, because they, he entertained him with great wrestling, the villages were putting in some money, whatever they can be 10 rupees note or 5 rupees note or whatever, they were putting in money. And he comes from a very poor background as such. So, everybody knows that this money that is being put in is hard earned money. And they are putting it in because they know for sure that this wrestler also has earned it with hard hours in the Akhada, doiling, sweat, blood and then entertain them. And so, and they also realize is young age is potential, possibly to take it to an international level possibly. So, that's, that's our whole idea. So, what binds these wrestlers with these farmers and the villagers, it's sweat. I mean, if I feel like funding, then sweat equity. But yeah, it's that, it's that idea of toiling in the soil that connects the wrestler with the farmer and that connection continues and it has been there from the ages and it continues right through. So, a dungal bead, large or be it small, it's driven by the villages. It's driven by an economy which is centered around villages. And we know what that economy is. We know what the idea of life and sustenance in a village is. And that's what drives. I mean, I can, I can, I mean, blankly say that, without any doubt that what drives Indian wrestling is is village, the villages and of course, then it becomes agriculture. So, when the wrestlers got into the mat at, at Gasi to border, it was, it was very clear that they were giving back what they received. And in their own way, whatever means, and they want to be part of this struggle as well. So that was very evident. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Desi, for talking to us. That's all. We have time for today. We'll be back tomorrow with more news from around the country. Until then, keep watching NewsClick.