 My name is Peter Adler. I'm a planner, a mediator, an arbitrator. I'm also a member of ThinkTech's board of directors. And for the last several months, I've been doing a long reconnaissance on one of the biggest issues coming up for all of us. I personally haven't decided which way I will vote, but I'm committed to understanding the question and helping educate everybody. And this is special three-part ThinkTech series, it's called Hawaii's Big Choice Should We Have a New Constitutional Convention. That question along with the second one regarding special property taxes to fund education will be on the ballot when we vote on November 6. Today's series deals with the first question. Thus far we have had three constitutional conventions. The first was in 1959 when we were required to have one to become a state. The second was in 1968, and the third was in 1978. 68 and 78 produce very important amendments and revisions. Since then, 40 years have gone by and we haven't really revisited the Constitution in the Citizens' Convention. Should we? Is it time? If con-cons are a mirror of the times, are there new challenges and problems that a con-con should take up? Does it warrant a con-con? That is what you will decide when you cast your ballot on November 6. In these three half-hour segments, we will take up a lot of different aspects of all this. Earlier today in the first segment, we explored what is at stake and how a con-con works. In this segment, we're going to take a close look at some of the proposals that might come on the table if voters approve one on November 6. The con-con issue isn't simple and has many different faces and nuances. In fact, it's a little like the proverbial blind men trying to figure out what an elephant is. If there is one big Uber message to all three discussions, it's this. Let's get informed about what kind of elephant we are dealing with, think about the big yes or no choice, and above all, get out the vote and be there on November 6. More on that a little later. To get us started, I have invited two friends and colleagues here to help us think it through, or at least to help me think it through. Colin Moore is a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii and director of the UH Policy Center. He is a regular commentator on electoral matters and has done some important polling, which I hope you'll share a little bit with us later on. Also with us is Kiri Yanone, chief executive officer of communication specific or compact, as most of us know it, which works with many clients in many different segments of the state and helps them think through challenging internal and external strategy issues. Colin, let's start with you. You and Keith Matzen are doing a very unique deliberation and it's also got three parts like this series and you've brought in volunteers from mostly from the neighborhood boards, I believe. Give us a snapshot of what you're doing and your sense of how those folks are fairing and what they're most curious about and interested in. What's on their mind? Sure. So what we're doing is called a citizen's jury. It's gone by a number of different names and this really was pioneered in Oregon. I'm in a few other states. It's called the deliberative poll, but the basic idea is the same. You take a representative sample of citizens, a group of citizens, you give them the chance to hear from experts to really take a deep dive into this issue and then they produce a report about some shared facts, some reasonable pro-arguments, some reasonable con-arguments and so that's what we're in the process of doing. I mean actually tonight, right after the show, the citizens are going to hear from some folks from the pro-camp and some from the con-camp. Are you finding them interested, enthused about talking about this? Well we are. I mean of course these people elected to be part of this process, so they're naturally interested. But I think what's interesting is a lot of them don't really know what to make of it either. I think a lot of them are on the fence and they're really puzzling through this as well because like you suggested, it's really nuanced. It's a very complex matter particularly because there could potentially be so much at stake. Later on if we have time we'll revisit the timeline that goes on. We did that in the first segment. Kitty, you also work across many different aspects of the public, private and civic sector and you're known for that. You're known for brilliant strategy work. What are you hearing about this? Are people interested in the business community, the political community? We just did a grassroots community. We call it soft sounding. We get out and talk to representatives of different demographics and the number one thing that keeps coming up is cost of living. People are just very concerned about that and the ramifications of that. People are worried about things like traffic and other issues. But cost of living tops the charts across every demographic. If it's people that are not personally worried about it, it's that their kids can't come back, their friends are retiring elsewhere, just getting things done here and that comes top of the list all the time. Are you hearing that in the business community? Are you hearing that in the civic sector and nonprofits? People are having a hard time keeping employees. Everybody hires everybody. They can locally, but if that's not enough, they have to recruit and time after time, they'll get someone here and then they just realize it's just too tough or they have a hard time recruiting the employees they need or keeping the employees they need. A lot of our local families are going to the mainland. We've all been to Las Vegas and San Diego and the Pacific Northwest and there's an awful lot of people from Hawaii there. Does the con con question that's going to be on the ballot November 6th come up in that context? It really doesn't. It really doesn't. I don't know that a whole lot of people are paying attention to it, frankly. So there's a disconnect between the issues that are on people's minds and the focus on the constitutional convention. I think there's a sense of, there's a little bit of a sense of apathy. I think, you know, it shows up in our voter turnout. And I think there are some things that are happening at the national level that are, you know, getting people a little more activated. But overall, I think it's just, you know, it's been a long time that these issues have been a problem and people are just like, you know, what do you do? And frustrated. So let's take a look at a few of these pieces in. I want to, we're in a fairly deep blue state on the national scene. And Colin, you're wearing a deep blue shirt. And Kitty, you have a red, this does, we're not going to make any judgments about your power. No, no judgments. And I will never ask you, are you in favor or not in favor? That's not the question. I'm frankly pretty independent and apathetic. So let me ask you, so it's a question to Colin first and then both of you. If we're center left primarily in this state and voters do approve a constitutional convention on the sixth, what are some of the issues that are likely to come on the table once delegates are elected and once the whole thing starts? Well, so first let me jump back to something Kitty said. So through our polling, we found the same thing, that it's these cost of living issues that really frustrate people. Say a little bit about the poll. I think people will be very interested. Sure. So we did a poll of Hawaii this summer right before the election. And one of the questions we asked them was first, what are the issues that most concern you? And housing was absolutely number one. That was the first choice of 27% of our respondents. Education, some of the other, the economy, some of those bread and butter issues were in the top three. The economy, I mean, rather energy, the environment, some things to get a lot of attention, those were really down at the very bottom. The other thing we found is that people have a very low opinion of the legislature. Only 21% of respondents approved of their performance, which meant that the state legislature was 7 percentage points lower than President Trump, who we know isn't a popular figure here in Hawaii. So I think if people vote for this, what they're really voting for is their anger and frustration with the system, not a specific policy. Now the advocates are going to get in there and try to push different policies. I mean, you'll see Native Hawaiian groups, environmental groups, labor groups, they'll all be there to push a specific policy. But for the most part, I think the public is responding to this sense that the system itself is. So you talked about the ones that were rising to the top on your poll, housing, jobs, the economy, the economics, the pocketbook issues, really, basically. Would you predict that some of those issues would end up in some form of proposals or proposed revisions? Are they constitutional? How would you get at them constitutionally? Well, some of those you're not going to be able to get at constitutionally. Housing, it's not clear to me how you're really going to get at that constitutionally. What I think we're going to see are these proposals to change the institutional structure parts of the state. So initiatives and referendum will definitely be on the ballot term limits for state legislators. Those I think will actually be the two that end up attracting the most attention from the general public because they can readily understand them. Maybe devolution of some powers to the counties so they can control more taxation and spending authority. Maybe to break up the Department of Education so you get individual school districts. Those all do get at these concerns about quality of life and cost of living. Kitty, what would you add to that? Again, we're looking at issues that might come from what we're calling center left. And we'll talk about center right in another moment. But anything you'd add to that? I think when you get to education, I think we have this massive centralized school system. It's unlike any other in the nation. The second constitutional, this other constitutional amendment that's on the ballot. I think a lot of people are upset about that. I think a lot of people are upset. It feels like a go-around. Right now, the legislature has full authority to use the general fund to do whatever they want for public education. It's just an example to me that initially, it kind of turned me off the constitutional convention. And then I thought, wait a minute. We didn't have one of those. This all happened in the back rooms of the legislature. It's a blank check, traditionally special funds or replaced general funds, so it might not mean the school system gets any more money. But more than that, it raises the cost of living for everybody in Hawaii. It's just unintended consequences. And we get a lot of that during our current structure. I've never seen a tax that went away. You never see one that goes away? TAT, for example, barrel tax, that kind of stuff. Or it doesn't go for what it's intended. So I'm pretty frustrated myself. I'm hearing that in the business community, too. Pretty frustrated. Well, and I think it's that we have employees. I'm not a huge employer, but I think government thinks that they're the only ones that look out for our employees. Well, that's nonsense. We don't exist without our employees. So we look out for things that's gonna make life worse for our employees as well as their families, our families. And Peter, about this ideological question, center left, center right, clearly the other amendment on the ballot, the education one tracks much closer to those two positions. The con con, interestingly, I think the more extreme ends of the political spectrum are the ones that are most in favor of the con con, which could create some interesting dynamics if it passes the people I've heard from, the most conservative people and the most liberal people, the young progressives tend to be the ones who are the most in favor of this. Do you think having the two ballot initiatives together will be confusing to voters? Will they say, you know, I don't want to vote for either of them? Well, I mean, it's just a speculation. This is just a ball question. We can only hope. I do think that, I mean, if there's not better education on both of them then people will probably either leave the ballot blank, which for a con con effectively counts as a no vote. I think that's likely to happen. I mean, they won't vote for either of them. So one of the things I've heard, and I'd love your views on that, is that people who saw progressive gains in 78 with the Water Commission, the public trust doctrine, the term limits for the LG and for the governor, they're a little more wary these days. Is that tracking with what you're hearing? Well, certainly the older folks who are part of that initial push, I think they're a little more conscious of what could be lost. Actually, the younger groups, the younger representatives from both, in many cases the environmental community and the native Hawaiian community are a little more optimistic about what they might be able to get in a con con. But the real dominant interests in labor, native Hawaiian groups, environmental groups are as far as I know opposed to a con con because they're worried about outside interests taking over and monopolizing the delegate process, pushing undesirable changes to the constitution. And presumably those would come from what I'm calling center right. I think that's their fear, is that they are gonna come from right-wing interests on the mainland. Are there other issues that if you are more conservative on the political continuum, you would expect those issues to roll up once if there's an approved convention? Oh, absolutely. What would be some of those? Those are the issues where the liberals and the conservatives actually agree for the most part, the initiative in a referendum system, that's favored by conservatives and favored by liberals. I think actually devolving more power to the counties creating school districts, that's an issue that's favored by the left and the right. Maybe not the centrist, maybe not some of the current dominant center left interests as you're characterizing them, maybe not the public sector unions. But those I think those institutional changes are favored by both of those sides. Gideon, any sense of when you move around the community, what are you hearing from millennials, Gen Xers, Gen Yers, what I can't keep up with all the monikers, but the younger voters? To the degree they're engaged with politics, I think, and I think we've seen times when they very much are, and I like that generation, I have to say. They make great employees, I really like them and I like their idealism. I like the fact that they think big thoughts and they tend to want to get engaged. I find generally more as a group than as individuals, but whatever, that's fine. I think they should be engaged. Our government was made to operate with a lot of citizen input and with people not being in office forever and making it a lifelong power base. So things like I think term limits are appealing. I think particularly in our state, our counties have so much they need to deal with on their own island and I feel strongly that to the degree we have autonomy there, it's a good thing. Having spent a number of years as a very big volunteer on the Board of Regents and at the university and I'm alum there and I've watched it for years. You got a few scars on those things. Yeah, I got a few scars. You know, I just think that we need more autonomy. We've got to be able to run our university properly and it's not working the way it is. And I would say, I suspect that's exactly true with our public education system. It's a top down management system. That's got to be looked at. More people are going to the charter schools which are more, I think in touch with what their communities need and more tailored and we're losing in the public schools. Even against the traditional, a lot of kids go to private school here, even more so with the last report that came out. But the charter schools are gaining and I think we should pay attention to that. We're gonna go to a break and when we come back, let's talk more and drill into some of the other issues that might come on the table. There was a new woman who lived in a shoe. She had so many children she didn't know what to do. She gave them some broth without any bread and kissed them all soundly and put them to bed. Hunger is a story we can end. End it at feedingamerica.org. You can be the greatest, you can be the best. You can be the king, come bangin' on your chest. You can be the world, you can be the war. You could talk to God, go bangin' on his door. Talking with Colin Moore and Kitty Yanoni and we're thinking through some of the issues that might come on the table should the voters approve a con con on November 6th. Let's talk about the counties. You mentioned it before. What do you think might be on the minds of delegates? And it's hard to know because we don't know who's gonna get elected if it goes forward. What are some of the things that the counties would be advocating for? Cause they'll be also, this is a political game and there will be a lot of political pressures. What will be on the county's minds? Well, number one, it's greater taxing authority. They've been asking for that for a long time. I mean, you know, that is unique in Hawaii. I mean, in most states, counties do have a lot more freedom to create their own tax levels and they fund their own projects. The second thing I think would probably be agriculture. And you already saw this with the fight the state has gotten in with Maui over some of the pesticide regulations. And then, you know, the third might be either more subdivisions below the county level. As most people are watching this show know, we have the most centralized system of state government in the country. We elect the fewest officials. We don't have divisions of government below the county level, which is very, very interesting. We're actually the only state in the country that doesn't have that. That's exactly right. And so you don't have school boards. You don't have city councils. I mean, we have a neighborhood board on Oahu, but, you know, that's a little bit like plain student council. I mean, there's not real power. Yeah, it's advisory. And I think there's, particularly because of where the delegates are gonna be coming from, it's very likely that the delegates are gonna be elected from individual legislative districts, probably two per house district. So we get 172. 178, that's what you'd have. Yeah, like in 1978. And so they're gonna be very invested in this sense of local county identity. And so I suspect they're gonna be pushing for that pretty hard. Agree on that? County issues will rise up in the county. I think so. I mean, the highly centralized government is something that I, you know, we always compare ourselves and this works better in this school district or they get more money or less money or things happen differently. I think we gotta look at that. I think we gotta seriously look at that. Although, you know, I'm a little uncertain. And part of it is, one of the things that makes me more certain we should do it is talking to people that were part of 78 because they all, it was great, wonderful and some amazing things got done. But we don't wanna ever do it again. We shouldn't have it anymore. It should be done. That's kind of the perception I sense. And that makes me think, well, you know, it has a lot of uncertainty to it. Businesses do not like uncertainty. But so does the legislature. People never know what the hell's coming out of that each year. I think we should have it every other year like they do in Texas, frankly. The less is more. Well, that could happen. Could that could surface as that proposal? That absolutely could. Or it could move to a full-time legislature. I mean, go in the opposite direction. Or a unicameral. Or a unicameral. I mean, that's the thing about the con con is everything is on the table. Now, of course, everyone will be able to vote on whether or not they accept that at the end. But the delegates can do what they want, the convention. Are there big proposals to reform the way voting works and the way the state legislature, where you've mentioned a couple. Right. Initiative, referendum, recall. Those are issues that came up in 78 and quickly went down, but it was a close vote. Term limits will probably come up. Those came up before, but they didn't apply to state legislators. I suspect those will come up as well, partially because the most motivated people from the left and the right who are likely to run for delegates, they favor things, those proposals. What about social issues? Gambling, recreational, marijuana. Would you see some of those also rolling up on the tip? Death with dignity, all of those things are, I think, come up. And you know, I grew up in the 70s. So I'm a little more to the left on a lot of those things. I think generally, you know, we passed this legislation about medical marijuana and we still don't have any regs so it can actually be implemented. And yeah, a lot of people suffer as a result of that. I think there's crazy stuff that doesn't get done. We have these great bills and acts that would bring more money to the school system. You know, we make decisions that sounds good. Nobody ever implements. I'd like to see a lot more accountability built in somewhere. And I'm not sure what the mechanism is, but it's not going to happen by accounting on the same people to build it in. They're not going to police themselves. They don't do that very well. So one of the things that a constitutional convention does is give citizens a chance to, in a sense, override the legislature and say, these are issues. Work on these. We want to do this. Many of the things that came out of 78 and 68 were things the legislature could have done themselves. So basically, it says, this is the temper of the times. In 78, the war in Vietnam was on people's minds. The environmental issues were on people's minds. Palakka Power was on people's minds. There were lots of issues roiling around. Do we have those today? Do you see that where there's really creating a kind of ferment? Or are we more passive or seduced by national issues? This is a question about the temper of the times and the mirror of the times. And Kitty, when we were doing our concon salon, Jim Schoen said, these really are a mirror of what's going on. The concons are a mirror. I agree with Jim that concons are a mirror. And I think similar to the 70s, what we have is this deep frustration with the status quo. That's why you get such low approval ratings for the legislature. I mean, in the 70s, concon, of course, you're partially responding to Watergate and this deep frustration with the federal government. The difference, though, is you don't have that same level of mobilization that happened after Vietnam. That's why the delegates who ran for the concon were dramatically younger than the delegates in the 68 concon. I think they're going to be dramatically younger than the delegates who run and win this time because young voters are not as engaged in the same way they were after Vietnam. And it was in response to that experience. I mean, having so much at stake that you could be drafted for the war. So I don't expect that to happen. I know my students, if they see this, will be disappointed that I don't have more faith in young voters. But I don't see that level of mobilization interest. And you look at the declining voter turnout. There's registration and turnout are two different things. They kind of move around. We have higher registration because it's very, very easy to get registered these days, but decreasing voter turnout. And one thing, and John Wahey has made this point many times and I agree, one thing that can come out of a concon, though, if young people do run, is to create a new generation of leaders. That's what we saw last time. And maybe that's what we need because the people who are opposed to it right now will often say, as you suggested, the legislature can already do this. And sure they can, but things like term limits, the initiative and referendum system, for the most part, that's really not in their interest to change. Those are big game changers. Big game changers. And like businesses, politicians don't like uncertainty. Well, yeah. I don't think anybody likes, most people don't like. And yet, sometimes we gotta push the envelope. We've gotta look at things differently. And to me, it's been a very long time since we've, I've lived here for 44 years. It's been a very long time since I've seen real change. And I say that after being a Democrat on my life and going to help lend a lingle. And I look at as much as got done in certain areas, the system's pretty strong and keeping, I look at it as like the river parted, a few things got done, some good, really good things. I look at the clean energy initiative and things like that. But as soon as she's gone, it's right back. Nothing really changes. Well, one of the, one of the challenges in this might be a lot of existing political elites running for a delegate status. So you might wind up having a flood of existing politicians, senior guys, saying why don't it be a delegate? Which didn't happen in 78. It didn't, but it did happen in the con con prior to that in the 60s, exactly. And I think that was because there was this norm that came out of the 78 proposal for con con, that elected leaders shouldn't run as delegates, that it really should come from the people. And no matter what happens, you know, and I don't take a position when wearing out there on con con, but if it passes, I hope our elected officials will respect that. I don't think it's appropriate for them to run. In 70s, the media played a big role on that. They were really pushing hard to make sure it was more of a citizens' gathering than the existing political rally for the sitting politicians. Is that likely? I think so. I mean, a lot of this will be modeled after the 78 con con because it just looms so large in the history of this state. And so because there's precedent for that, I expect you'll see the same pressure and discouragement for elected officials to run. So let's just take a look at further issues that might come on the table. That's really the center of gravity for this discussion. Are there other issues, wildcard issues, that might come up about how the state functions, how the body politic functions, how voting functions, how education, for example, on education, would we really expect that there'd be an attempt to decentralize the school board system and have neighbor island boards or something different? Oh, I think there would be. I think there would be. What do you think that would look like? If we were just speculating, I understand we're speculating, but let's do that. Yeah, I think communities, I think it always is interested in me because the neighbor island communities are pretty focused. Whenever I work on the neighbor islands, people get together quickly, they decide to do something, it gets done, and I think they have the biggest interest in that in seeing a decentralized school system. And you think they actually want that? You think they would be hungry for that? I think there's a growing movement. I think there's a growing movement toward that, yeah. With the charter schools. Well, with the charter schools in just a sense that top-down governance isn't working on our schools. If you look at films like Most Likely to Succeed and The Way Things Are Being Done, we're kind of working off an old model. We're working off old curriculum. And there's, we have a $3 billion budget. 1.9 comes from the state, but another billion comes from everywhere else. We've got a relatively small school system and people are starting to realize that, including a lot of teachers. And they're saying, you know, you can't buy decent school books, you can't buy school supplies, that's ridiculous. And can't pay teachers. We don't know, and can't pay our teachers well. Where does that money go? Colin, other issues that you think we'll roll up across the bandwidth of state, how the state functions, voting functions, any of the pieces? Well, the big one we haven't talked about is our native Hawaiian issues. Then it's OHA. I mean, we were talking about a state agency, I think the future of OHA is what a lot of people are most concerned about what could happen. I mean, could there be a state within a state proposal? All of these things would be on the table. That I think would be the biggest game changer. But I entirely agree that the neighbor islands are hungry for some devolution of power. I mean, anytime I go over there, you hear people talk about the state of Honolulu and how they're so frustrated with these, you know, these decrees coming down from the square building. We only have a minute or two left. And if there was one message you would like to put out there for the folks who are listening to this about November 6th and the ballot questions, what would it be? I would say, you know, even however you do it, get some information and go vote. Know the issues, the fewer of us that go to the polls, the less, you know, we get detached. And I would say reattach, reengage, get involved, know the issues, and have a voice. I mean, I'm always fascinated when I sit in a room and I listen to people that may think differently than I do. And I always learn something. And I may or may not change my opinion. You are so good at that. The more of us that listen, the more good information gets out and we can sift through and end together as a community, we can determine some new ways of doing things. Colin? There'll be a lot of great sources for information on the con con, no matter what position you take. And one of them I hope will be this citizen's jury that we've worked on because if you can't trust your fellow citizens, you know, really who can you trust? And so that's the point of this project, to give you an unbiased source to at least clarify what the debate really is about. So just to add my little voice to what Colin and Kitty have said, if you have an issue that you're worried about and you say, I wanna protect this issue, I don't wanna see changes, or you have alternatively an issue that you say I really wanna see change on, get clear on that and either way, come out and vote. But focus on the issues that are most important to you. We're in an interesting moment and it could be a game changer. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us. Have you bet.