 How are you going my friend? How are you? What's your name? I'm John. John good to meet you John. Okay so I've got this sign here. It says live auctions, the slave trade proved me wrong. Are you able to prove me wrong on that? Right well you go first of all your sign is a bit confusing because when people see that they immediately think they say slave trade they immediately think human trafficking. Interesting. So are you referring to human trafficking? Are you talking to livestock sales? I'm talking about livestock. Right well then you talk about cows, pigs, chickens. Right so if we stopped all that, yeah. That's not what I'm asking. I'm not asking whether or not we stop it. I'm asking whether you think it's slavery. Well in what way would you say slavery? I mean are you talking about slavery for the animals, slavery for the people involved? I'm talking about are the animals victims of slavery? I wouldn't say so no. Okay and why is that? They're bred for a certain reason whether they be... So they're bred for that purpose therefore it doesn't make it slavery? Not necessarily, it's the way they're treated. I mean they're treated as property. Yeah they're treated as property but then there's different ways of treating them whether you like for instance battery hens. So you're talking about welfare? Yeah. But you can treat your slaves well as well? Well no they're not. Oh would you count them as slaves? I would yes. Why? Because for the same reason that you would count a human being as a slave they are sentient, they value their freedom, they value their family, they value their right to life, they don't want to be exploited and harmed. Okay so for those same reasons I would consider slavery applies in the animal context as well because you agree they have all those values? Yep they have all those values but then also you've got to look at the broader picture. I mean for instance how would you change it? That's a practical issue I'm talking about that in principle is it slavery? In principle yes but also in principle no. It's a grey area. Why is it grey? You look at for instance the livelihoods and also what their purpose is whether they be cows for milking. What was black people's purpose for what when they were enslaved? To pick cotton for them. So if they have a purpose does that not make it slavery? But that is a different matter. If you look at history the first person in America to have black slaves was a black woman. Would you say that was wrong? Yes 100% it doesn't matter who the victim is of slavery. Once they eventually abolished slavery a lot of the slaves or ex slaves went back to the fields for a wage. What has that got to do with slavery in and of itself? I'm saying I'm looking at a whole conflict. I made the correlation you said if they have a purpose it's not slavery. So I said well if a human being has a purpose. I said look at the purpose. What is the purpose of animal slavery? First of all looking at the whole industry behind it. Calling them slaves would say if basically setting the slaves free what would happen to the animals? Would they be able to support themselves? Would they be able to feed themselves, gain a living? Probably not but that's what guardianship is isn't it? Yeah but then what would you do with these animals afterwards? I mean that's another practical issue though. No because it's all part and parcel. No but that doesn't tell me in principle whether it's slavery you're just you're talking about practicality. What you've got to look at is the whole picture not at one small part of the picture. We can talk about what we would do with all the animals and all of that. It just doesn't tell me what I'm asking on this sign but I was trying to keep it on point because there's many different things we could say we need them for protein. What would happen if we stopped animal agriculture? What would happen to all the animals? These are just practical issues not the principal point whether or not they are slaves first. Yeah and did you agree with that? I don't know if you agreed with it. Yes I do agree. The way they're handled the way they're treated as property but then what you've got to look at now is how would we change it? How could we change people's views? So why do these places exist? Why do these industries exist? To serve what purpose? So how would we change it? That's the sun's right in it. This is a dairy industry. Yeah well the thing is there's dairy farms and dairy farms. So why do they exist? Why do dairy farms exist? Milk for people. For who? For us. Yes. So if we stop purchasing these products what happens to these places? They go under. So that's how we change it yeah? Yeah but then what will we do with the livestock that's left over? It'll be a gradual phase out not everyone's going to go vegan overnight so gradually phase out we'd stop breeding billions of them into existence every year to kill and we'd have less animals in existence yeah? Yeah I agree with that but also you're looking at a livelihood livelihoods of people. I mean here's one thing livelihoods of people. Yeah as well but let me explain. You know they had this before you finish. Hold on hold on right? I don't want you to go off on a different topic though. No I'm not going to do that. Yo defining slavery as well how would you define slavery? I would say to take someone's liberty off of them so they don't have any bodily freedom they're considered property you are owned by someone. Yeah yeah but then if you look at websters they also define it as somebody who is conscious of their situation and able to via demonstration or other means. I wouldn't agree. Have you read websters? They're saying that if you're not conscious of being enslaved you can't be enslaved? No that's what they're classing as a slave but you look at for instance the sex trade. Yeah do you think children can be slaves? Yes but what level of awareness is a child at would you say like? From two years old. So before they have that awareness they can't be slaves? They don't understand what it is. Yes they can still be slaves but they don't understand. Okay and animals are probably in the same on the same plane of that as that yeah. Between the ages you know depending on the animal for instance you look at for instance I'm trying to apply that same logic. You look at for instance sheepdogs yeah they've got an understanding of a two to two and a half year old child. Yeah and a pig? That's got about the same. About a three year old child yeah. Yeah and I agree in part that yes the animals are treated like slaves like property. So they are slaves so you agree with this? I agree with that but also but then you've got to look at a bigger picture yes gradually phasing it out but then I take it you're you're a vegan yes? Yes yes which is a life choice for you. Yeah I feel like it's a moral choice yeah when I have the freedom of choice I think feel like it's a moral choice. Yes but then also you've got to look at various industries you've got people who for instance can't get a job or for reasons you know can't work they've got they're living on less than minimum wage on in this country we're talking okay in the what we're getting in from the government okay yeah now being worried about people's livelihood if these industries go under being a vegan isn't really in the picture of what they can afford why not well for instance a friend of mine he lost his job he can't get another job even though he's been applying and he gets 40 pounds a week from the government 40 pounds a week so you do think veganism is expensive to eat plants you look at how much for instance various food stuffs are I agree there are some products that are expensive expensive and when he's not all yeah but when you when you take into the whole picture of all his bills coming out council tax rent okay you know how does he feed himself very sparsely what does he feed himself with has he got enough money for bacon and steak and cheese but he buys the cheapest whatever he can okay so you know the cheapest foods in the supermarket are vegan by default not always rice potatoes beans vegetables fruits pasta yeah you look at the supermarkets but then what he does he goes to a lot of markets where he gets cheaper fruit and veg there and also meat but then also you know it's I would argue that meat is more expensive than rice and potatoes and beans and pasta depends where you shop do you get to get cheaper steak than you are spaghetti well again it depends where you shop I mean you go down to ashrad market on a Sunday you can get we're in a practical debate here about whether or not veganism is practical for the whole population this is kind of off of topic yeah I would argue that it completely is and I would argue that the only reason meat and dairy and eggs are as affordable as they are is because they're heavily subsidized by taxpayers money because if they were the true cost of all the resources and water and land that goes into making these the small amount of calories for all of those crops and workers and transport that would be an astronomical price but the government are subsidizing them with taxpayers money that is true but then if the whole country went vegan even over the next 10 years yeah yeah what would be the problem with that you would loo you have a lot more people who haven't got a livelihood so this is the livelihood argument this is why I wanted to stop you there before I wasn't trying to be rude but I've heard this so many times you know when they abolish slavery what would happen to the slave owners that we're getting them to pick the cotton that was their livelihood yep though they had to pay away do you think that justifies slavery no yeah why does that in the animal context to that but it's okay if you you know I'm trying I'm trying to I'm trying to find I'm trying to see if you're logically consistent so I'm putting it the same context for humans because it's easy for us to understand human slavery because we're human but when we put it in a different species we sort of our logic becomes contradicted yeah it does a bit yes but if you look at it from a heroine how can you but can you correlate an animal like a cow yeah to a human being yes how by all the things that we have in common sentience we we both want to live they suffer they feel pain they value their lives they don't want to die okay so let's say for sake of argument we lose all you know everybody goes vegan yeah then we're going to have worldwide billions of animals we discuss this yeah we're phased out yeah phase out so what are you going to do column no we're going they're going to phase out so you people are going to gradually stop eating animals so they're going to gradually stop breeding them yep but with the animals which you know that's left over they're going to be no use well that that's a pretty bad argument for in moral in a moral sense because someone has no use to you that means we should what what what should we just let them live based on the fact that they're sent in no these people have no use to saying that I mean for instance if we could look after them in sanctuaries what do you know what happens if a cow isn't milked regularly why are they pregnant to begin with now who did that nature do you think the dairy industry relies on nature you know what I mean by you know that well I know what you're saying and I'm jumping one step ahead of you because we forcibly impregnate them the reason they produce 12 times more milk than naturally is because we've selectively bred them to produce that much milk so if we stopped that process that that covers that problem as well yeah yeah I agree with you there that you know in the way that the animals are treated are as products their property they're treated disgustingly I I've seen footage of the way animals in this country and other countries are this is all 2016 and and just before that's pretty recent in the UK this is called land of hope and glory yeah I have seen this and the way I mean for instance you look at this that is horrendous how these animals are treated you care about animal welfare yeah yes I do but not animal use like not animals being slaves you don't like if they were if they were treated well like do you think I would need a lot more convincing because I mean yes you've chosen to be a vegan right yeah I like my Sunday roast yeah I used to as well yeah I yeah I like great well yeah having a bacon sardine do you feel like a part of your culture has been taken from you part of your traditional way of eating and you feel like that's close to your heart and that's might be taken from you if you choose to go vegan partly yeah I'm going to talk about the fact that you like eating meat because this is a what I used to love the taste do you think that sensory pleasure justifies what we do to animals for food sensory pleasure alone like it all depends on how again they're treated and how they're cold I mean is there a right way to kill someone no there isn't but thanks for being honest yeah but then you know you look at say some abattoirs and I have seen footage and I've directed footage for it that some stuff that was taken that wasn't allowed on British TV I agree there are worse ways to kill okay and a good still a good 60 percent of abattoirs in this country will hang for instance a cow upside down and slip the throat yeah they bolt gun them first usually a lot of them don't yeah sometimes the bolt doesn't work but for the most part what isn't what they say and what they do they're going to bleed them out somehow yeah but a lot of them don't you don't you just say they did what would you say is the best way to slaughter someone I've never actually thought about it myself yeah I've honestly I've never thought about it yeah do you think there is a good way of doing it like I think most human way would be something that would destroy the brain instantly I guess there are worse ways to kill someone you could torture and kill them first you could also make sure that it was really quick and fast or you could not kill them which is more ethical well not killing them yeah but then also when we're talking ethics when we go into for instance we now open a whole new can of worms about the death penalty yeah would it be right I mean you've got for instance serial pedophiles yeah do they you know do you lock them away and throw away the key it's interesting how we I know it's interesting we treat animals worse than we do serial pedophiles and murderers I think they should be treated I they're innocent and we murdered them by the billion and serial pedophiles and killers and things like and you know they're they're acting so much more immorally than a pig ever has I've done more wrong in my life than a pig has and they're treated like the worst criminals on earth do you think that's justified no it's not yeah I've got aim for murderers and paedophiles I have no time for and I think the Americans have actually got the best idea which is chemical castration which stops all that's all the feelings for them you're talking about criminals you know like people that have hurt others yeah and but we're going back you know go back to animals like what have they done to deserve what we do to them well us humans do to animals we enslave them we kill them we torture them we take their families we split their families apart yeah but do they realize this I don't know do they you care you care about animal welfare I'm why do you care about animal you're the one who posed the question and now I'm asking you are they aware are they aware of it do they realize it well here I'll ask you a question in response that will help you work it out for yourself you care about animal welfare why why because I don't believe any creature whether it be human animal or have you should be tortured so you believe animals can suffer yeah so you believe they're aware of their suffering yeah so I believe they're aware of it okay but have you read the start any studies that prove that they are aware for instance of be your statement of being taken split up from their families split yo and things like this their behavior would show that so cows pine for their young you've seen that on dairy on a yeah I have yeah okay what do you think that is then also you don't think that's suffering but then you could also turn around and say you know having a family pet is the same it's slavery I would say it depends on the context when you're going by what your last statement yeah they're taken away from their their their family yeah it depends on the context so they're held in a place that they don't know yeah whether it be a dog they're taken out you're talking about dog breeding dog breeding cat I think it's not vegan yeah dog breeding dog breeding and that's not vegan buying dogs isn't vegan but is it wrong to have a family pet okay so it depends on the context I'm going to give you the context where I believe it's vegan I'm asking you the question yes or no do you well it's not a yes or no it's not a yes or no answer because there's different context well let me explain to you okay well as a vegan the most vegan thing to do is to rescue dogs from a shelter that would otherwise otherwise be euthanized okay and you rescue them and you offer them protection because if you let them roam free what happens to them they go to a shelter and they get euthanized yeah so the best option we have is to rescue them and offer them sanctuary okay do I think buying dogs off a breeder who's breeding them to make money and exploiting these dogs and then having them no and do I think in principle domestication of animals should exist no but we're trying the best to deal with the problem that we've created as humans and the best thing we can do is rescue animals from shelters who would otherwise be murdered but then again I'm asking you again that's different to eating a burger having a family pet do you think it is wrong to have a family pet it depends on context and I just gave you those contexts it's a simple yes or no answer do you think it's wrong to rescue an animal from a shelter if that's going about okay that's the vegan way I think it's wrong to buy it so there's two different scenarios you're telling me that say you're married you've got kids yeah you wouldn't go to a shelter and rescue an animal rescue an animal and keep it yes as a family pet yes you would I think that rescuing an animal is the best option they have otherwise they get euthanized what would you rather that I agree with that's the most vegan option we have I've had dogs all my life and all of them have been rescued dogs yeah so but breeding dogs is a different scenario I would say that's immoral and that's exploitation yeah I do agree with you there that is so that's why I'm saying it's two different contexts so it depends on the context yeah and then also you got to look at why people have got a family pet first of all you've got you know people like me who will get a rescue dog you know cats and use it to help teach their children you know responsibility of animals and about you know how not you know how to treat them correctly yeah and not bolt gun them in the skull for a burger it depends if you like burgers so if you're feeding your children burgers at the same time while you're teaching them animal ethics I try to yeah so you're teaching them animal ethics but you're feeding them a minced up animal but then also you've got as you know you can you they get to a certain age where they make their own decisions yeah but you make the moral decisions in the house until they're old enough to yeah yeah do you think it's a moral decision to buy exploited killed animals and and feed feeding to children and then also teaching them to treat animals well you put it in that way that is wrong but then also you've got to look for instance where people saw them eat yeah from a slaughterhouse all you agree all meat comes from a butchered animal from a slaughterhouse yeah somewhere along the line they've been slaughtered somewhere along the line they've been slaughtered against their will would you agree but again yeah you're trying to twist everything I say no I'm not I'm not really twisting your words I'm finding out whether you're logically consistent with your ethical position in two factions yes one I do you're holding two belief systems at the same time that contradict each other I think I enjoy my meat I've been brought up with it so all my life yeah and I haven't had a convincing argument on yes I agree that we have places like this but then I make sure that the meat I get I don't buy meat from supermarkets we already talked about this though you said that animals can't be killed in a good way yeah that it can't be moral I know but again it's also down to my own personal choice like with you yeah you say it's personal do you think yeah whether it's personal whether it be vegan veganism veganism yeah I can't even say the word veganism whether it be vegetarianism whether it be killing animals for food do you think that's a personal thing there's a victim involved you know that yeah obviously yes I do how can that be a personal choice it's a personal choice to buy the meat and eat the meat but there's someone else involved there bro what would you prefer me to do go out to a game reserve and kill my own meat I prefer you just didn't kill animals if it wasn't 100 necessary in any context just one quick question there's I spoke to this woman a little while ago who she calls herself what's referred to as an occasional vegan that doesn't exist well apparently it does if you know it doesn't you google it she doesn't know what she's talking about to be completely honest that's what I said yeah because if you're anti-racism you're always anti-racism you don't have racist free Mondays you don't have veganisms of philosophy on it's an ethical position you either hold it or you don't yeah she can be plant-based some of the time and eat a plant-based diet but she can't hold an ethical belief some of the time you're either anti-abuse or you're not yeah I think that's this is what I said to her but at the end of the day I do still enjoy my meat whether it be sausages whether you know Sunday roast or what have you so so just to clarify you believe it's immoral to and there's no good way of doing this you believe that the animals can be victims of slavery what I said was that and you know you've got to prove that animals actually understand the whole concept of slavery and what they're going through which you know you have you haven't done yeah you agree that animals value their life they want to live they're sentient they feel pain they suffer they they desire then also we go back to you know how they how they're slaughtered whether it be humane or inhumane is there a humane way to kill someone yes you in what context well you look at say for instance the US for instance quite a few states in the US still hold the death penalty yeah but that's a different scenario then they've committed a crime animals haven't looking at it for instance so someone that doesn't want to die who's not a you know mass murdering criminal like an innocent animal is there a humane way to kill an innocent animal that doesn't want to die do they understand the concept of you know if they're going to die on some children don't is that does that then you know exonerate you from murdering children because they don't might not understand no so no but you still haven't answered the question I asked what was your question would they would would the animal for instance a pig you ever tried to kill a pig they try to avoid the knife don't know you're right so they have a desire to live would you let me finish what I was saying thank you are they aware of the whole situation yes or no I would say if they if you're trying to murder an animal they would be aware that there's danger and they'd have to avoid that danger and that they would be fighting for their life yeah 100 yes and the science is on our side with that I don't think you know animals are just walking objects that don't have any feelings or wants or desires or try to avoid anything like of course of course animals desire their life right don't you don't you think the same thing yeah I do try to kill a dog hurt a dog the coward they run in fear they remember you abuse a dog they remember the next day they remember for life okay so they're aware what's the difference between a dog and a pig like you know you abuse a pig they're aware they know you know I think that we view animals so lesser than us that it just justifies this murder and we tell ourselves lies about they do agree with you there they do you know people do say you know they tell lies about they lie to themselves to make themselves feel better you know yeah do you think that's honest or consistent or I'm just trying to forget to the to to where you just at least agree that it's wrong even if you're not changing yeah I've already said that I agree it's wrong okay but again how would you change we talked about this yeah how yeah we go around in circles because you're saying yeah we'd phase it out but how would you start changing people's minds with this conversation right here but most people when they talk talk to you do the same thing yeah they just go out and go and try to find excuses and yeah not everyone most people look at this objectively not most a lot of people look at this objectively they open up their heart they look at it and they go that's wrong I don't need to do it so why do I do it yeah but then give them a week and they're back doing it not necessarily the vegan movement's growing very big very quick there's 12 000s of us marching on Saturday through London shut down the streets I know okay so we're not going away this is an issue of justice that's not going away you know and I see see compassion in your heart when when you when we show you this and I don't think you're a bad person by the way you know I think that you do care about the the welfare of animals I just think there's a lot of contradictions in what you're saying and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it and trying to help you see them as well I know I do agree with a lot of what you're saying I do agree about the inhumane way they're treated the inhumane way they're killed what we can't agree with is that there is a humane way to do this to them I mean well I won't agree with you on that I don't think there's a humane way okay well then we do agree yeah all right I appreciate the conversation mate and you know I just trying to get to the bottom of everything with you just your personal view on you know how you view animals and I do appreciate you sitting here for so long and thanks for being respectful and honest here let me give you a card here this is our land of hope and glory this is what you're watching here I have seen cowspiracies to do with the environment and health as well on the back here's a little challenge you can do on facebook it's free vegan challenge I tried I did try it but I'd lasted about three days well they will help you with what to eat where the good stuff is UK's one of the best places on earth for vegan alternatives you just got to know where to look cheers brother thanks for the conversation mate take care all right yeah you we're out mate thanks brother you're allowed to leave it was nice it was nice chatting I've got to say I've interviewed vegans before and you're interviewing me there yeah yeah no this is fine yeah I know I'm xbbc oh really yeah oh wow and I've interviewed a lot of vegans who break down literally break down under cross questioning yeah I'm impressed you didn't break down oh that's because I feel like veganism is consistent so it's very strong it stands on its own two feet but if people don't know how strong and consistent this ethical principle is they might feel pressured and not know how to answer you yeah but yeah all right well thank you very much thanks brother now it's talking to you