 Good evening, good afternoon, good morning, and a very warm welcome to the second webinar in the Commonwealth-Wise Women's Series of Webinar. Today we have a very interesting topic, it is the role of mentoring in leadership development, and we have two very eminent speakers. The webinar will be moderated by the Commonwealth of Learning CEO and President Professor Asha Khanda. But before we start, I would like to remind you that this webinar will be recorded. Also, we would like to request that you actively engage in the webinar by posting comments or by tweeting. First of all, if you would like to post a comment or ask a question, you go to the check icon and you click there, the text box will open, and then you write your questions or your comments there. The panelists will see your comments and your questions and they will respond to it. If time doesn't allow for all questions to be answered, then the panelists agreed to answer your questions afterwards and we will send you the answers to these questions also together with a link to the recording. Secondly, right now on the screen you will see the Commonwealth of Learning's social media channels. You would like to request you to visit us on those channels on Facebook and on Twitter. You will also like you, if possible, to tweet about this webinar while it is on by using the hashtags as you can see on the screen right now. So with that, a very warm welcome and thank you so much for making time to spend this hour with us to discuss this very important topic. Without further ado, I would now like to welcome Professor Kanwar to officially open this meeting and also to introduce the panelists to start all discussions. Thank you so much, Professor Kanwar, over to you. Thank you, Francis. I think women's leadership is a very important topic, which is why we started this Commonwealth WISEWOMEN.org because we wanted to bring eminent women leaders in touch with mentees in remote areas of the Commonwealth so that we can train future leaders. So now you can see already on your screen, you know, three very eminent leaders, Francis Ferreira, my colleague is one of them, Professor Emma Cruz-Wai and Professor Lily Chan. I'm going to introduce them in a minute. And you also saw now Ajile, she's our future leader. I mean, she is a leader already, but she's also going to be one of our future eminent leaders in the Commonwealth. So let me first introduce our two colleagues who have been very kind to, you know, give their valuable time to be part of this. Let me start with Letu Manuasina, Dr. Emma Cruz-Wai. And she's got a very interesting take. She's also a traditional leader in Samoa. She was on our call Board of Governors for six years representing the Pacific region, she's actually raised the profile of the Pacific during that time. She was also an active member of the Virtual University for Small States of the Commonwealth and has been in very key positions at the Samoa Polytechnic at the National University of Samoa and then of course as CEO of the Samoa Qualifications Authority. In addition to all these roles, she's also a very well-known writer of stories. She's a linguist, she's a writer of stories and she writes in Samoan and in English. And her stories have been translated into several Pacific languages. And I think one of the key things about Emma is that all the years that I've known her, she's so supportive of other women. She really wants to, you know, and that empathy and, you know, that's probably a very significant characteristic of people in the Pacific, the sensitivity and the empathy that she brings, you know, with her. That's the kind of aura around Emma which you can't probably see now because she's far away. Another great leader is Professor Lily Chan, who is the Chief Executive and Vice Chancellor of Bawasan Open University in Penang, which is a very good close partner of ours, of the Commonwealth of Learning. And she's another one who promotes women's leadership and if this COVID-19 hadn't happened, we were going to have a leadership development program for mid-career academic women in her university, this too. But in addition to supporting continuing education and tertiary education for people who didn't have the opportunity, she's also been looking at innovation and promoting entrepreneurship. She has done a lot of mentorship in her time, you know, when she was at the National University of Singapore and leading their enterprise unit, the NUS Enterprise. And she, in fact, transformed the entire thing. So that just shows how effective women leaders can be. And of course, she's also responsible for investments and bio-industries, et cetera. Very, very impressive. A lot of achievements with both are women that you can see on the screen. But let me also talk about, before I invite them to give their perspective, say a little bit about the situation of women in the Commonwealth. You know that 50% of the global population is women. But when you look at top positions, you still don't find women there. For example, in the Commonwealth, if you look at elected leaders in the Commonwealth, out of 54 member states, how many do we have? Three. And Sheikh Hasina, the Prime Minister of Bangladesh, Jacinda Arden, New Zealand, and Mia Motley, who's the Prime Minister of Barbados. And then there's one president, you know, in Trinidad and Tobago. But she's not really a people's representative. She's the representative of the Electoral College. But even if you count four out of 54, where are we? Then if you look at women in parliament globally, there are 25% women in parliament. But in the Commonwealth, it's a little under 20%. So we need more women leaders, parliamentarians. And if you look at the global gender gap index in the Commonwealth countries, you know, the countries where women are good in economic participation, good health, good education, political participation. The top three countries are New Zealand, Rwanda, and Francis' country, Namibia, surprisingly. And then if you look at, you know, where are the best countries to be girls today in the Commonwealth? It's UK, New Zealand, and Canada. Not one developing country in the top three. But on the other hand, in education, things are changing. For example, if you look at Lily's country, Malaysia now, where she is, if you look at the data from 2013, there were 122,000 men in higher education. But there were double the number of women in higher education. Similarly, if you look at Canada, where we are sitting, the male participation in higher education of males with degrees are only 30% compared to women at 35%. So that's a good thing. But when you look at, you know, university heads, Lily is an exception. And in my own country, India, out of the 17 open universities, only one vice chancellor is a woman. The rest are all men. So it just shows you that even though we are making strides in some areas, there's a lot of ground to be covered. And unfortunately, this COVID-19 is going to make it all the harder. You know, when this Ebola crisis hit West Africa in 2015, all the children dropped out of school because they had to stay at home. And when the schools reopened, who are the ones who were the missing faces? The girls. Because parents said, oh, now you've dropped out, no need to go back. Are we going to allow the same story to happen again? If you look at, you know, the jobs now, the International Labour Organization is saying that women are more disadvantaged because all those jobs relating to accommodation, food, sales, manufacturing, everything is disappeared. You know, all those have been impacted by COVID-19. So what are we going to do going forward? We need to develop more women leaders. And we have to support each other and our women and girls in the field to become leaders. So on those kind of, you know, I've just given you a little bit of the Commonwealth context. Now let me turn first to Lily and then to Emma on telling us a little bit about, you know, just an introductory statement on the role of mentoring in leadership development. How do you think this is going to help women and girls? Lily, over to you. Thanks, thanks. Thanks, Asha. For me, leadership is about leading an organization, which we all know. But leading an organization means also building the community and bringing everybody along with you. Mentoring becomes important because you need to be able to communicate not just with the direct reports. You need to be able to go below your direct reports because then your personality, your thoughts, your feelings about what leadership is all about will then go down the line in the organization. I use this as an example where I am at WOU. Obviously, I'm the first and the, well, this is, I'm the fourth chief executive or vice chancellor of the university and obviously the first woman and I don't think about it that way. I'm just a leader in that organization. But the style is different. I had to go down and people get very uncomfortable when I start going beyond my direct reports in the organization. The people who really need to be mentored, the staff who needs to know what leadership is all about and they may be hidden somewhere in the organization, it will only, they will only open up when the leader goes down and talk to them. And then they feel that I'm being recognized. Somebody up there knows about me. And in time to come, they tend to open up and mentoring to me is not a specific activity. It has to sit with the leader throughout every day, 24 hours if the leader is with its people. And it has to come after a while intuitively and inherently. It's listening, it's trying to ask questions that will give them a different view and a different context. It's not about pointing fingers at them when they cannot do a job well. Because everyone has many reasons why they can't do a job well. Some may be justified, some may not. But unless you get down onto the ground, open up and allow your staff who normally would not have an opportunity to see a leader, to communicate with you. And in that process, you are indirectly mentoring them and offering them alternative views and letting their voice be heard. And that's how, that's how I do it. It's not so specific as to I'm actually mentoring a person. It's more a more open, more inclusive way of mentoring. Mind you at WOU, there are many, many women staff in WOU. And many of them, I'm really impressed because they juggle home. This is something that we really need to talk about during, especially during this COVID period. They juggle home, they juggle their kids. I've got photos of my staff during this period in front of the computer, the kids all around them. And then, sorry, sorry, I need to run off and make lunch now. And I'm like in the midst of a meeting. So we need to talk about this. This is, I think, a very important aspect. But that's how I mentor through a very inclusive process. Thank you. Thank you, Lily. That's very helpful to know, I think. But do you think this is particularly a women's style? Men wouldn't do that, wouldn't go down to the last level? In all my years of experience in leadership positions, the answer is yes. Women brings a different style of leadership to any organization. And the intuitiveness that we have is actually our advantage. We can see things before our male colleagues can see it. So I think we need to make better use of this. And how do we further pull this intuitiveness and instincts that we have in mentoring indirectly, not directly, right? Very subtly mentoring the next generation of leaders. Be it guys, be it women. Thank you, Lily. Would you agree, Emma, over to you? Emma, you are muted. Oh, OK. Let me see. Now we can hear you. Oh, I think. OK, thank you. Thank you, Lily. Yes, totally agree. Very similar style of leadership. I think when we think back to our own journeys, in terms of coming into leadership positions, you think back, how did I ever get the skills and knowledge to do the work that can you see that you have had good role models in your own life starting from home into school, into the community. There are always people there that hold community together, to hold a school together to enable you to pass exams and to look further and to strive for better things. So the mentoring was there, even though it wasn't called that in the past. But admittedly, it's now being identified as a very critical part in leadership development. So when we look at the topic for today, importance of mentoring and leadership development, yes, it is important because the mentoring relationships that we have, whether they be formal or informal, they create stability. They enable us to create safety and look towards succession and sustainability. Wherever we are, whether it's in family or organizations or in workplaces, there's always that sense of responsibility being responsible for yourself and for others. That's a very important part of mentoring. And as Lily said, when you're in an organization, I've also worked at the university. And yes, it's important to be able to talk to everyone. You can't always do it. But in passing by, and if cleaners are doing their work, you thank them. You acknowledge them. And if you pass by and a lecturer is busy doing their research in the library, you say hello. And in office places, too, you do the same thing. The acknowledgment of people is very important so that you can get them on your team. And then the communication of your shared values is also important so that you are a team. From a woman's perspective, yes, it's very important to have our own personalities and characteristics as women coming through. I posed the example of Jacinda Ardern, the New Zealand prime minister for the pandemic. Her message was be kind. And she had the courage to say that because it's not often said by national leaders to be kind. But I suppose it took a woman to say something like that. And it was important to be kind, to be looking out for each other and work together as a team of five million as she expressed it. It wasn't just about government. It was about the whole country. And I think that's the same idea that we have in our own organizations, in our own workplaces. Wherever we operate, we try to get people on board and we try to acknowledge their strengths and capabilities as well as your own as a leader. Thank you. So I think already we've got very important things here. But you mentioned you're the prime minister of New Zealand. I mean, she's an exceptional leader. And one of the things which really is striking is her humility. And she's so down to earth. And because she's so down to earth, you know that she can relate to other people and people can relate to her. I mean, she's not somebody sitting on a pedestal. She's one of the five million that you mentioned. But I think what we are talking about is how do we mentor for leadership and what important points we got from Lily was that you listen, which is not always easy, I must say, because leaders have this habit of talking. So it's difficult to listen. Then proactively reach out to people and then provide them intellectual stimulation, like asking them questions, opening up different vistas and perspectives for them to think of the issue from a different point of view. And what you said, Emma, was that you've got to take responsibility. Now, that's an important thing in an organization to take responsibility for mentoring people. And then thank and appreciate people and recognize them. That that's, again, something very important. And of course, be kind, especially when there's a crisis and people are suffering. And this is, I think, one of the important points which have come out. So now, since there aren't any questions on this chat, only appreciation from our colleagues who've joined us from India, Pakistan, I can see. Let me ask both of you that what are the strategies for effective mentoring? You already mentioned some of them. What can we do to make ourselves better mentors, Lily? Listening. I have to admit that Cole has given me the opportunity to mentor three young ladies from around the world. Most of my mentoring has been focused in this area and primarily in Singapore all these years and now recently in Malaysia. Listening to them. It was very hard. Communication was very hard, except for one young lady who's from Pakistan. It was easier to communicate because of the broadband. It was very up to date and we could have face to face. The other two was tougher. When you listen and you hear from them, they're young ladies of this generation. Very modern, very contemporary. But there's a sense of, for young ladies, we don't know where the world is going. What am I going to do when I graduate? If I can graduate given this current situation. So listening to them and trying to encourage them, we don't have a solution for them in mentoring. Mentoring should not be about giving them a solution. Mentoring should be about, in my way, is to talk to them more, that they can open up more and more to you and you get a sense as to where their weaknesses are and what is bothering them. And from there, you have to slowly nudge them out of that thinking and give them alternative ways to consider their situation. When I was mentoring in Singapore, it's again uncertainties in startups because that was the area that I was in. There were 3,000 students that I had mentored over the years, individually or in groups. And when they do startups, all 800 of them that came out of this, it's the uncertainty and failure is always in their mind. And if you live in a society where failure is a no-no, especially in our Eastern culture, you have to help them rethink what is failure. Failure is getting the experience. Failure is learning from it and then moving on. And that's not failure to me. That to me is, you know, you have gained something and you moved on. They may have taken investors' money and they may have failed totally in a year or two years time. They don't know how to face the investors. So investors who put money at risk would understand. So that kind of relationship with these young people and these young startup founders is quite important. You can't give them a solution. You don't know what is the solution yourself, but you need to take them through this thought process and talk to them all the time and listen to them all the time. I think that's the most important thing. And as you said, Asha, as leaders, we tend to talk more to be able to take a back seat and listen. Takes a little bit more extra effort on us as mentors. Do you know one of the questions, then let me ask you because this is related to what you just said, that how important is trust in mentoring? This is, for both of you, this question. And the other one is that institutions show the gap between the concept and practice of mentoring. How can this be tackled? So these are the two questions which I find. And then we've also got Dame Carol Kiddu who was formerly on our board and she was the minister from PNG. She's saying, I'm finding mentoring by email very challenging. Poor IT services plus cost of data is probably a contributing factor. I cannot feel the mentee through the email, any suggestions. So both of you, you've got three questions. So I think let me go first to Emma and then back to you Lily. Emma? Yeah, I'll start with the, okay, you hear me? Yes. I'll start with the trust issue first. Yes, you have to establish that trust because a good relationship has trust within it. And when you are mentoring several people or one person, you have to make sure that they trust you to be able to give the advice. And then you also trust the mentee to try and go and do something for themselves as well based on what you have, what you bring to the table. In my own time as a teacher, I feel that like Lily, you mentor so many students and you try to get them across by giving them new thoughts, new hope for better things to come. And that has a lot to do with communication and to give them that knowledge to be able to step forward. I think the idea of failure is also important because you have to also encourage them to keep on. You have to tell them that it's important to fail because that's when you really start to learn a lot of things about yourself and also keep on. These are the, and the confidentiality in this relationship is also important because you're trying to get people to get through without having to be shameful about anything. It's just a human, it's a human element in everyone that you feel bad when you don't see things going the way you would like them to. And a lot of mentoring with young people is very, very much revolves around that. That's the trust part. I'll show a second one relating to... Second was, you know, the institutions show the gap between concept and practice of mentoring. How can this be tackled? Again, well, it has to do with leadership again. If you have good leaders at an institution, the gap will be lessened or the gap will not be there. And as leaders, you know, as a leader, you don't do it by yourself. You have a good team and your own sense of caring and concern and responsibility permeates throughout the whole institution. And that helps to make everybody feel valued and encouraged to do well, both for themselves and for an institution. But, you know, you might like to comment a little bit about the technology situation in the Pacific because Dame Carol Kiddoo had mentioned that, you know, email is very challenging and, you know, data is very expensive in the Pacific, especially in PNG where Dame Carol is writing from. So how do you actually feel the mentee through email? I have found with my own mentees that they have responded quite well back on email. I find that the email also creates a distance, a time, a space for consideration and reflection before replying. So I find that better than direct talking at one time, although I'd still like to have a chat or a direct conversation. Also, in relation to the mentees, it's good to get an idea of their context first and foremost. What is it that's going on with them? Because you're not in the same spaces as them. So, you know, what is their family situation like? What is their work or study situation like? So that way you can be able to help and give suggestions and they can come back to you whether it was useful. At other times, again, I look at, I pose that the notion of distance, you need to have a bit of distance at times so that your mentee can do their own thing and not be pressured by you all the time. Have you done this, that and the other? They will come back and I've had good responses coming back and then nothing and then you have to say, can you reply or how is it going? No pressure, but you know, how is it going? Those are the things that I think are important, but it is a challenge to having the technology in the Pacific. I'm not sure, I just, I found the email beta, but if we could enable this kind of zoom chatty, that might be a way forward if we have the connections. But because again, the Pacific, the distances are so great between different islands, it's not always easy to come together, but not impossible. Here we are doing a Zoom meeting here and there's a lot of people tuning in. So this is a good example of how we can persevere and still use what we have. Okay, thanks a lot, Emma. There's some more questions now I'll address them to Lily. One is that to be a leader for women is difficult in some institutions. Women mentoring is not always acceptable. So how to develop and implement leadership qualities without recognition, I don't know what that means, but you've got generally the sense of it. Another one is I would like to ask the question from both our professors that what is the most difficult part of being a leader? And then another one, how can we encourage more men to mentor and sponsor women, which is very important. So over to you, Lily. Okay, so maybe the last question is easier for me. To be honest, I think it wasn't until many years later that I realized that my mother was my most important mentor. And usually as a young lady growing up, as a young woman growing up, you're constantly fighting with your mother. And I think all of us would appreciate that. But it wasn't until years, years later that it hit me that I am who I am because of my mother. She grew up in a very poor environment, got a scholarship and didn't go overseas, but in Malaysia, this was in the 1920s that she got an education. And after that, she was a leader herself. She was very vibrant. She was, you know, compared to her two other sisters and I hear stories from my aunt. It wasn't until much later that I realized that I had a lot of those and she was my mentor and she's always been the one. And I'm not sure if I should say this, but I will say this. No matter where you are, married or unmarried, you have to make your own living. You have to be able to make enough that you yourself can survive. And that was something that was always inculcated in me. And of course, growing up in an Asian, very Chinese Asian environment where my father came from a well to do, I would say very, very well to do, but you know, a family with recognition. The first born is a girl back in those days. It's a no-no for and for my mother who's a working woman married to my father. This is a lot of family tensions. But she showed it on. She kept a distance from the in-laws and all that. And I was brought up very differently. So it wasn't until years later I realized that. But as I grew up and as I went and ventured out into what I call the men's world, a lot of my mentors were guys. And I always sought out, for some reason, and it has been a joke with some of my friends. You know, when we go to conferences and all that, you just home in on those with silver hair. Why? I said that's because they have all the experience. They have all the knowledge. I was a scientist in my younger days, right? As a scientist, you would look for someone with a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge. So a lot of my mentors on and off have been men. And over the years, the early part of my life was shaped by women. I went to a woman's college in the United States. A lot of my professors were women. I went to a girl's school when I was growing up. And many of my teachers were women. So the early part of my life was shaped by very strong women. And then in my professional career, it was mainly shaped by men. So it's an interesting combination of these two. Now going back to concept and practice, that's not easy. The concept of women leaders, if you're a woman and you're a leader, you are already perceived differently, whether you like it or not in today's environment. And I hope someday it would not be. And I always, I do not like when somebody says, oh, you're the first woman in this, you're the first woman in that. I think until that phrase gets out of use and outdated, we will always have to face this. And hence, we do need Zoom conferences like this to put our messages across. But what's the most difficult part to be a leader? I'm very inclusive. And I use a political party, if I may say so, as a way of looking at it. When you're a leader and you're running a political party, if you get 51% of the votes, you have one, right? You have moved on, and you have one, and you lead the country, you lead whatever constituency you are leading. If you are a leader in an organization, if you get 51% coming along with you, you can't do the job. You really can't do the job. Because the 51% will come along with you and there's still the other 49 who will not be coming along with you. And if you're trying to build an organization, you do need 80 to 90% to come along with you. And that to me is how do you take that concept into practice? That's not easy, right? So that's how I go by. And if I realize, okay, I've won this, people are coming along, they agree with this. And then I look around, oh, there is still a substantial percentage. There's still 40% of them who still do not agree. How do you as a leader go down and try to move this 40% or at least 20% over, right? Before you can make things happen in an organization, that I see is how I do it, and it's a bit different. It's tough. It's not easy. Yes. Thank you. There's more questions. Where will you find mentoring very challenging? And if women you have mentored somehow did not complete the mentoring and the reasons. And another one is that do you think as women, we are our own worst enemy when it comes to mentoring, where there is reluctance by women in already key leadership positions to offer this opportunity. But you are saying exactly the opposite. You're not reluctant. And how can we convince others that these women can be leaders and actually be great mentors? So how does one choose a mentor here? So I think these are just general questions which you can address. Would you like to go now, Emma? I think I go back to the issue of men being mentors. I think that there is a lot of support. It is out there that comes from fathers, husbands, brothers, uncles. So we have to work together as a team. And there's always the opportunity in terms of professional development that there are many people out there, both men and women who can help. So when you have that division, it doesn't help. But first and foremost, we'd certainly have to help each other. And the question about being our own worst enemies, that has to stop if it does exist wherever. We do have to help each other. And we do have to help the rest of the community because we don't exist on our own. Our families are made up of sons and daughters and nieces and nephews and husbands and brothers and so on, grandfathers, grandfathers and fathers. Many women have also had mentors from within the family, both men and women. So we have to acknowledge ourselves as a whole. And I think that comes from my, I think similar to Professor Lilly, our own background of family. That family is very important. And our mentors certainly were our mothers as women. But we also learned a lot from both parents, fathers and mothers. So that is important to know. And I think that's the other important thing as a leader. It's your identity, yourself. You come as a certain person, you have background. And when you become a mentor, you also look at the mentee as a person. What attributes do they have that you can work on? And how, where do they want to go from where they are? And you build on their strengths that they already have. Nobody is without strengths from the beginning. Everyone has strengths. So that's the thing you also have to identify within a workplace or an organization. Looking at different people and their strengths and working together with them. That's the difficult part of being a leader is being able to get to everybody. But of course you do, you can do that in many ways. And I think communication is one of the most important things. And part of that communication is listening, as already mentioned, as well as choosing your words wisely. When you are speaking to people and trying to get the message across that should be understood. And also giving them an opportunity to also speak back and express their own thoughts and their own views. So there are certain norms that do exist that can be changed. They are about norms. We can change norms. Now you have a vice chancellor for our son. It used to be just me as the norm. It's changed now possible. So many things are possible. And the thing to do is to have the courage to go out and do different things and aspire for different things. And that are for the good. And you always feel encouraged because you know it's going to be good. I think as Lily said, becoming to leadership positions. Not so much that you wanted to become a leader per se, but that you took on the steps you were encouraged to take on the responsibility. So you did so. You created a team around you that you can depend on. And they can depend on you as well. So yeah, that's the environment that you try to create in order to be an effective leader. Can I ask Professor Emma a question? I think in Samoa and we're all in this part of the world, do you feel that, well, maybe let me do it in a different, let me ask in a different way. How do male colleagues take to a woman leader? Maybe that's the question that I would like to pose out there. It can vary. There are many different people within our own society and I think in general, I could say that the men are supportive. But it's just that sometimes women are reluctant. And the reason for reluctance often rests with their own personal situations in relation to others. For example, family. Sometimes family takes precedence. I can't take it out because, you know, there's other responsibilities that they are more concerned with. But certainly the opportunities are there. And in Samoa, although we haven't got a very high percentage in parliament, we do now have a very high percentage of CEOs in, you know, in respective organizations, both government and private organizations. Nowhere as big as Malaysia, but we, you know, we are getting there and we've got a really good number. And they are very good CEOs. And I think the important thing is to be working together well with each other as well as their male counterparts. So I think the male counterparts are also very supportive. But I think we also have to break that. How shall I say? That perception amongst many women that they've got too much to do that just taking on another position is going to be too much because balance is very important. And when, and I think I mentioned this in my own statement that when women CEO, women become leaders, they also need support, not just support others, but they also need support from their families and their workplace and their communities. Because it's not easy to try and get to see the needs of everyone. And it's, sometimes you're also always judged as if she is good as the male counterparts because it's relatively new. But when it becomes the norm, then it's more of a free flow. And that's already starting in Samoa. And it's a very positive trend. And fathers are very proud of their daughters as well as husbands and members of the community. Yeah. So yeah, it's important to work together with our male counterparts. Right. So let me ask you both a question that what are the opportunities for reverse mentoring? Right now we are talking about a one-way street, you know, that we are the leaders and those are the mentees, they have to be mentored. What's the benefit in it for us? And what is it that we can learn? And do you have any examples to share? I can start. I was just recently on a conversation a couple of nights ago. They're still fresh in my mind. I wouldn't say I have mentored them, but they're part of the group that, you know, I would talk with them. These are all startup founders. Their companies today are already with this group of young people. The companies today are already multimillions, right? And some of them are already unicorns and they're all in their thirties still. And I was asking and chatting with them so how's business going? Can you survive? Can you get through this period and all that. And a lot of things that they tell me I wouldn't know. They are now young people in their thirties, mid-thirties. They are traveling the world. They are running the businesses in China, in Southeast Asia, in various parts of the world. And the things that they tell me and what they are doing and how they're coping with the situation were revelations to me. And I realized that I was inviting some of this information that I would also use in my leadership position in WOU. I won't say what it is, but it is reverse mentoring. But we don't look at it that way. It's not formal, right? In talking to these young people who have worked with you in the early parts of their career where they weren't sure if their companies were going anywhere and today they are who they are, it's quite a revelation. And you suddenly realize that, oh my God, they've far exceeded me, you know, in their capabilities and all that. And you're proud of it, you're proud of it. But that to me is reverse mentoring. And even when I talk to my mentees in Pakistan, in Tanzania, in Malawi, the things they tell me, the environment they're in, the context they're in, to me, I'm imbibing that. It's experiences that they are facing. I have not faced before. But their experiences sometimes can be morphed into experiences that we need to use in our organization. So it happens all the time. I think it's not something that you can formally see. It's just intuitively it comes to you. I think we do learn a lot from our mentees as well. It's not just one way. I definitely agree with that. In terms of that reverse, you know, within a workplace, it's also part of a retention mechanism where you acknowledge people coming in with something that you didn't know and you acknowledge and value it. So it's important to always keep an open mind. And of course, we do know that we don't know everything even though we are the mentors. The mentees are also able to give us more understanding of context and situations which we may not have been familiar with. I mean, a basic one is technology. Most of the young ones are really, really well-versed in technology. When they show what they can do and say, well, they definitely have a strength. They also can build on it as well as acknowledge it. And they feel good about it because they're valued. Yeah. Two interesting questions have come up. One is that, you know, as compared to men in society, criticizes women more if she's a leader. So how should we respond to criticism and not sort of, you know, I mean, I'm just reading this. And the second one is that today is the second day of back to school in Fiji. Most of my year two students are not in school yet. Some are here, but they are lost. What advice can you give me as a woman to help me, help these future leaders? What do you do to be a good mentor leader to these children? They have to work with the parents because the children are still with the parents. And so you have to create good relationships with the parents and encourage them to bring the children to school and keep them there. Go ahead, Lily. No, I agree with you. You really have to work with the parents to encourage the students to come back. And maybe I don't know the first couple of weeks make it a little bit more relaxing, not so much content in the classes to make them slowly ease back into full-time school. But I think the online learning, if countries have it, should still continue. You know, you can do it maybe once every two weeks or whatever just to make sure the rhythm is there. How to respond to criticism? I tend to have a sense of humor. You will always be critique, no matter what you do. There will always be an opposing view. And if the criticism comes, you know, very, very, how to say very strong, I would always turn it into a joke and with a sense of humor. And my previous staff whom I used to work with, I think it takes time for people to get to know you. In meetings, they can see me opening up the gap. They say we can see you opening it up. And the poor guy or the poor woman, you know, who is always critiquing you and all that, certainly realized, didn't realize that you've opened up the gap for them to suddenly realize that what they have said or what they have done is not right. How do you do it? But I think it's an art, you know. The time you learn, you must, as women, we must inject that sense of humor in what we do and take things lightly. Don't take it too much. We tend to take a lot of things too hard, as you know, because we tend to be more sensitive, more emotional, and these are some of our weaknesses, but we need to turn that around as women. And just take things with a sense of humor. People can critique you. I've been in communications with a couple of colleagues in WOU and I've used phrases like are we laying, are we rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic in some occasions, you know. And then some of them have picked this up and turned it around and come back and argue with me in different ways. And I love that. I like that. I like to open up to turn things in with a sense, inject a sense of humor, take interesting situations and make it into a small story so that people can see it and take the personal aspect out of it. I think that's very important as a leader and also as a mentor. And these are the tricks that I use, I suppose, in my own style. The humor is really, really important. I agree with you. But it's also important not to be afraid. Where criticism comes from, I think it's important to identify where and to face up to the person who is giving the criticism and come to some understanding. And that's where you need that courage as a leader to call to the source if possible or at least negotiate a discussion of where you may have failed or where you may have shortcomings because it is important to know for yourself as a leader. And I find it's good to be able to speak with people that criticize you and have a discussion and then you can clear the air or you can agree to disagree, which is good too. Yes, yes. So I think what you're both saying is that leaders mustn't go down to criticism. Leaders must not be broken by criticism. They should be resilient characters. And I think women leaders are by and large and there is research to prove it that women are more resilient as leaders because they face so many difficulties and barriers and they're growing up years and so on and so forth. So that does give them a sense of resilience. But the two strategies to become resilient are one, have a sense of humor. If you don't have one, develop it. And the second is to be brave. You know, in our part of the world, they said that don't take any decision out of fear or favor. And that's very useful to remember throughout and don't take a decision out of fear or out of favor. And then you can get the balance right. So I think what you are saying is a very good strategies for building resilience. You know, one of the questions was that my mentee wants to talk to me one on one, but there's no opportunity for a wider discussion. So this actually brings me to another question that, you know, one-on-one mentorship is good in an ideal world. But how do we scale up and take this mentorship opportunity to a wider constituency out there? I think, Asha, I think with Zoom, with Microsoft Teams, with whatever means we have now. Yeah, I think if there is bandwidth and opportunities, we can put them all together from different countries. That, I told my mentees, but unfortunately, two of them have a bit of a problem. I would love to put the three of them together. Then they will realize they're all seeing very similar things in this part of their life, going through university, worrying about what's the next job, you know, in emerging economies. It's very similar. But for me to tell them, it's a bit different. But to mentor the three of them together inside a room like this would be very interesting. And I think we can scale, Asha. I think we need to think the next step. How can we have more? I think anything more than five at one time may be a bit difficult. But if we have groups of anywhere from three to five from across countries, or even from the same region, would be very interesting, I think. It's more conversation for us as women mentors. It's not so much a specific aspect that we're trying to tell them what to do and what they've done wrong. It's more a conversation. And through that conversation, we're helping them build up their own confidence. I think it's worthwhile thinking about it. No, I think we're running out of time, but I can't close this without asking you that if you had one or two key pieces of advice to give to people at large, because there are all kinds of people here from Africa, Asia, Pacific, everywhere. You're a leader, Lily, Francis, you too, Emma. Can you just give one or two bits of advice in just those objective type doties without elaborating that what should people do to become leaders? Because leadership is not just about being a vice chancellor or having a position. You can be a leader and influencer no matter what you are, what position you hold. So what advice from your experience are you ready to give them as the last parting pearl of wisdom? Have a strong sense of responsibility for yourself and others, and you have to care. You have to care about others. Very nice care, kindness care. Francis, you're muted. Go on now. For me, leadership is a collaborative relational process, so we should embrace it as a collaborative process. And I think both the two speakers, the two panelists already spoke about it, that it is not a downward thing, but it is to appreciate where we are coming from and to draw our strength from there by collaborating on a constant basis and to sort of draw our leadership strength from there. So embrace collaborative leadership. Thank you, Francis. Collaborative leadership. Care, collaborative leadership. Lily. Listen. You just have to open up your mind and you have to listen and take in those comments and internalize it and put it into your own context and be responsible for whatever decisions that you have made. I think that's to me quite key. To listen, contextualize what you have heard from everyone into your own decision and be responsible once you've made that decision. So thank you, Lily. So I think what we are hearing is that we have to develop the skills of listening, the skills of empathy and the skills of communicating because without the communication, we won't be able to build trust. So Francis, is there anything you want to say as the last famous words? Thank you, Asha Ji. And thank you also to our panelists. One thing that came out very strongly, especially towards the last part of the discussion was about mentoring amongst the mentees themselves. Like peer mentoring, that is definitely a very important thing to address. And that is to ensure that the mentors appreciate where they are coming from. So I do have such a group of seven mentees that I have in one group. And as Professor Bai said earlier, so give them the time and let them continue to talk to each other. And then as Professor Chan said, they will find out they share the same challenges and they have the same aspirations. And then you come in again and then you talk to them. So that is my famous last word, is to capitalize on the strengths of the groups that you have and see how you can bring them together and have sort of a basis for peer mentoring. Also just to conclude, somebody asked about gender sensitive values. How do we bring it in? I think one of the things for us also is to have discussions with them on social issues and personal values. And in that way, we can bring in the gender sensitive issues because within the society, all the social issues have such discussions. And that really helps them also to contextualize their experiences and for us as mentors to understand where they are coming from. With that, thank you so much, Professor Kanwar, for the beautiful moderation and for our two panelists, for your contribution and all the participants for their active participation. And there, I see there are still questions coming in, but I'm sure we will go through it largely in myself. And then we will save those questions to Professor Chan and Professor Bai and see how we can get more answers and then send it in an email. Thank you so much, Professor Kanwar. Thank you. Thank you, Lili. Thank you, Emma. And thank you to all our friends. I can see Dame Karal. I can see Aptar Kaur. I can see people from Belize, from Mumbai, everyone. So this is the best way of greeting people now. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you so much. Bye-bye.