 Hello everybody and welcome again to another let's discuss with Parsons TKO today. I am well I'm always I'm Tony Cappecini your host CEO co-founder of Parsons TKO were a digital consulting company remote based which we're definitely going to get into today and I'm super Delighted to be here with my friend Andrew Courtney who is currently at the National Geographic and he and I get together and have the most amazing conversations about like to say that it's always turned to big ideas and over lunch I think maybe about a month ago now we started getting into biomimicry and it really got me thinking and so I thought this would be a great topic for our audience so Andrew if you want to introduce yourself as well. Sure thanks Tony yes you know I always struggle with like what kind of an intro to give but my background is certainly pretty broad I've spent a lot of time in technology and communications I think what I'm most known for though and this is where I get the most consternation I'm most known for like project management right and that's it's a role that I think most people would expect just in general from anyone who's was able to get results done these days the strength I think I really bring though is that ability and I think you've got this comment and some of the other guests that really take those complicated chaotic ideas put some structure and order around it and then figure out how to move it forward so that you can get something at the other side that meets the goals and gives you enough clarity on what's working what's not so you can kind of keep adjusting and keep pivoting right now work at National Geographic I've spent a good chunk of my career in the conservation space before National Geographic was at the Nature Conservancy and also at United Way but the role I have right now is it's an outfit we're leading a policy campaign at National Geographic so we have an organization that you think of in terms of storytelling and education and exploration and we're really trying to influence global policy to convince world leaders to protect at least 30 percent of the planet by 2030 so we can we'll see if that comes in or not but it's a pretty interesting that in and of itself is an interesting case study it's a big idea and it's quite ambitious yes yeah yeah I think that's how we got started was like you want to talk about audacious how might you protect 30 percent of the planet by 2030 so I I mean let's let's start on that one point you talked about with the PM the project management capability I think I'd agree on in my career too that's what people liked about me but I'm not a trained I don't have a PMP certification yeah I always felt it was like how do you put a plan together think about the obstacles think about dependencies and then get everybody on board yes yeah I mean for me it's always it's kind of come back to like you got to fall in love with the problem you're trying to solve so you better you know figure out how to get to organizations where you're going to be solving worthwhile problems you know that was a good quote there though you had said you need to fall in love with the problem you're trying to solve yeah I like that yeah um that's that has helped me throughout much of my own navigation like I've it might sound a little corny but I've always thought of myself as a as a believer in a better future that balances the needs of people on planet and so that's really been kind of a guiding principle for me in terms of how I've pieced together my career it's definitely not been a linear path at all right like my not at all but that has always kind of guided which sort of skills I pick up and and where I'm trying to go and you know help me figure out and find ways to fall in love with some of the ugliest problems you know because sometimes you get hinted something that is just not at all what you expected and yet you know you can find a way to really align that specific issue with things that really matter and kind of help you fulfill your own vision so yeah it's uh I really like that phrasing you had there's someone had asked me once when I was working in house in an organization you know okay you're you're a little younger but you moved up the track how did you do this what what was your secret I was like I don't care about taking credit yep right now I just I wanted to get things done yes uh and but I like the way of phrasing I think yeah it was a love of the problem but uh how do I bring best people in the best minds together yeah where everyone can feel some ownership and if they need to be the lead and take it they could take it but let's let's get it let's get it done and do it together um and that that's it's that facilitative role less about and I'm similar to you in that like the whole PMI stuff it never worked for me I'm skeptical of it um because it just sort of I think it boxes you in and you know it's like book knowledge right can you study and and memorize you know certain things great but um but are you more comfortable collaborating with people on messy things helping them understand really what it is that you're trying to get done and then trusting them to come out with the best idea so their expertise really gets to shine you know and you're mostly just sort of the the guiding hand um so I think you know just for posterity's sake I mean it is March 17th 2020 we are the green shirt erin cobra uh a little bit of green on there we uh we're in the middle of a pandemic new a new new time of being for us here uh just with the shutdowns and everything that's happening this remote work but I was I was reading just before we got on to do this where China was the US is blaming China and China's blaming the US and you know the next thing you're going to see come out for me on LinkedIn is let's just remove the word blame if people are getting sick to getting sick and I got to be willing to say I believe the scientific community wants to collaborate together across borders um and I think people want to figure this out and and though those are the big ideas that get me excited I I think for too long it's been we've thought too small ball even within our own countries within our own companies within everything and there there's radical change that needs to happen and then the moment is being forced on us and I'm I'm curious too as we get into this too we you know you and I've talked a bit about this interdisciplinary role and how do we make work function together how do we facilitate and bring people together how do you how do you integrate the work you know Parsons TKO we we spent a lot of time thinking about this because we would come in and I think you probably had these conversations I mean I think like five or ten years ago we're talking digital ecosystems yeah and I just I didn't like the word didn't feel right but the context made sense it was the only way I could describe it you know we came up at Parsons TKO with engagement architecture yeah which is systems people process but with the purpose of getting an audience and building affinity but in doing that what we realized is those tools span an entire organization where they felt like they came out of the communications or marketing department or maybe the fundraising unit and really it's all of these groups have to be stakeholders in a process that can get integrated and so we've been talking about what's that middle role what's that integrator role that I you know if you're just a pmp not that sounds bad but for all the pmp's out there I'm sorry I don't mean it that way it is very valuable I mean and we need that discipline skill what Andrew and I are saying is we don't have your skill set or the capacity probably do what you do on a detailed attention to detail level what we're talking about is where's that sort of messy middle person who can look at all of it or what that role is yeah it almost feels more essential now than ever as I think a lot of groups are going to start rethinking what's our business plan today I mean I don't think that that's exactly right like at least that's been my experience and it's been born out of honestly out of a lot of insecurity initially right like this the first time I got thrown into this kind of integrator ish um situation was that pbs about 10 years ago when they were going through their major are we gonna make it uh moments when viewership was down youtube was taken over and they were way behind the time trying to make it work with antiques roadshow delivered over the air you know right right and a dying demographic I mean these are all very familiar things and so I was there at that time when when the organization was one laying off people left and right trying to rethink how to deliver broadcast content over the internet making it you know digital video on demand and and that was just like the first time I got thrown into that stuff I really felt very insecure because I loved the newness of it and the meatiness of like how do you get this done but it was also like my god we haven't been here before and that you felt like somebody it felt like we should know how to do this you know what I mean like huh or or there was this lack of like rigor um and and there wasn't until I shifted over to the nature conservancy when I realized most of this stuff you know it's that it's like it's wayfinding you know I think we've talked about this too where you're you've got a general plan that's just that's helpful and you've got a roadmap and that's helpful but you can't get too attached to like the exact specific um day by day tactics right like they just kind of unfold and you have to be ready to pivot quickly and this you know this isn't true for all projects there are certainly like major enterprise projects where you want to have tighter controls but for these things where it's like it's kind of messy and there's a lot at stake in your unknown territory um you end up having to kind of work with a lot of people quickly and your ability to be successful comes down to whether or not those relationships can hold together you know like do people feel that their voice is hurt and their contributions are valid or are they feeling so attached to the old way of doing things that they no longer want to share or be part of um thinking about what the future looks like or bringing about that change you know like some of the trends we've talked about we've had there's there's just always that um that tension between those that are really ready to dive in move things forward and then there's the individuals that are kind of holding things so close they can almost not quite sabotage but they kind of detract from the inevitable change. There's man there's a lot of stuff you said that I really liked right there. Especially the one where it was it felt like we should have known how to do this. Like I we could impact that for a while because I with all you know I've worked in house and I'm running my own company now doing consulting and everywhere I go everyone's like oh I bet but everyone else has this figured out and I'm like no actually no one does and that phrasing again you just use really brings it home because it's I maybe that's even some of that where some of the deflation and motivation comes from is just man I felt like I should have been should have known what to do I felt like I should have known what to do when a virus hit I felt like I should have known what to do when YouTube came or when I needed to take my events online but like no it's okay and I think you're right I think we always because when technology gets involved we expect everything to be a one and a zero we expect it to be real quick and it's right or wrong when it's like your wayfinding example I think is probably right for the current moment we're living through and and just organizational transformation. Right yeah like it's it's um there are no maps right there's really no map like there are references and you've got some landmarks and but you're still kind of like is north there is there and you're trying to get to the next point and then you you know you pull your team together and is like are things still valid I mean definitely now with COVID-19 right like this is absolutely just obliterated I'm sure for millions of people like whatever you thought you were going to be doing next quarter is now very different let alone well goodness even day to day hour to hour I mean that's what we're living through right now with our with our campaign project at Nat Geo right it's last week at this time how might we convince heads of state of the 196 UN sanctioned countries to publicly support protecting at least 30% of the plan by 2030 that was our goal right biodiversity we want biodiversity and now it's like does that come across as tone deaf to be out there talking to world leaders about hey you gotta stand up for biodiversity when their economies their countries their people are quite literally you know this is this is a pandemic and this is unheard of I mean it's it's extraordinary so you know those are conversations we have right now we have we have active debate all on there's the there's the camp of stay the course we've got momentum we got to keep it up and then there's the you know the view that perhaps we might need to give it some space adjust our messaging a little bit or you know even um not quite pack it up but hit pause for a while so I'm kind of pivoted there from you a bit it was you know there's this this like there is that that challenge when things are changing so quickly and there's so much volatility you know where do you put all of your energy and effort if you want to invest in meticulous project plans that you know are are capturing a moment in time that by the time you've thought it out is already irrelevant you know or you need to just have enough of a of a direction and that's how for me anyway that's kind of where I've been setting things up lately like so this gig and that geo previously when I was over at united way it was a similar setup there of a big that one was a transformation anchored more in technology with the partnership with sales force but it was super audacious as well like how do you get 1800 local united ways you know bound together on a digital transformation to shift how they fundamentally do their core business work small effort not at all small and there was internal tension you know we had we had the executive team wanting to see the masterminded project right like I want to see 40 pages of rows and timelines and milestones and some of you know all that kind of stuff and then there's me where it's just sort of like okay this is big and we need to kind of like get the general gist of where we're trying to go get some interim things that help us move in the right direction and then pick our head up again in the next quarter and see what work but didn't and what you know where do we set the sites I'm not saying that's any better I'm just saying that for me where it helps put my energy less on the details that may not even materialize and more on focusing towards outcomes that could help build you know build the win um yeah yeah again just so much in there don't pack I mean it's making me think when you had talked about the executives want that detail plan they want to know where it's exactly going to be at what time and how that's going to happen and I mean the truth is it's probably impossible to give them that you know uh you read the Washington Post the other day and the epidemiologists are like it depends yeah I can't tell you but it's making it's making me think too here about how how organizations use data too and analytics and how we're monitoring our performance on these pathways which is it shouldn't be seen as a definitive answer right it just needs to be a health check like if you're way of finding are we still in a good place or are we really off course did we have like yeah we always do these projects and we'll start with what's your goal I know my goals okay well let's state them right well how would you get to that objective and you even said the word outcomes and that that's a lot where I'm trying to steer a lot of conversations these days is what's the desired outcome yeah I don't know how you're going to get there exactly right now at this moment I don't know if it's a plane, train, an automobile, a boat or a water it doesn't matter yeah I know we I know that's what you want to get to I know this is the desired state do we know why that's the desired state now we have the motivation let's get this thing done you know and how to and I guess just how do we continue to adapt that in organizations and your united way example there um you know sometimes I don't know if I'm the the kid crying a wolf in this story but I think I do think there is going to be a consolidation in the mission driven sector because of the way that I've seen the funding mechanisms from philanthropies and you know the wealthy that are donating in it's changing yeah it looks a lot more and is starting to take a shape that looks to me like impact investment rather than let a few ideas flurry and see what happens and yeah and then see the best maybe I I think I've seen that starting to change I know it's really hard to record everyone says impact no one knows exactly how to define it but I'm wondering in terms of evolution you know when you start to think about those changes too what does that do to organizations especially in these federated models like if if you start to your job was 1800 different local united ways I can imagine the way they operate in San Francisco New York and Tulsa yeah or Honolulu it's all very different yeah right but they still have some core that that the central group can can manage you know in that sort of federated model I don't know if you have thoughts about that like though is that is that where their lessons you took away from that if we thought about mergers and acquisitions I don't know that there's any other way to call it in this space but yeah I mean in that example I it's I know that a lot of options were looked at and some of them were perhaps is there a need to yes to do some consolidations what where things wound up was and I think this is good although it's still they're in a very messy stage still because these changes are big they are centralizing some of the back office things so 1800 local united ways each of them had their own email each of them had their own finance each of them had their own CEO so basically 1800 different organizations all just kind of federated tied together by brands sort of a franchise perhaps model and that might be quite accurate but but in any case you know they they have had the the foresight and the vision of like how can we streamline but it's messy and it's complicated and it's hard because then you start dealing with people who have jobs and careers and their own passions and beliefs on the other end of that and yeah I caught up with one of my old colleagues recently and they're still just they're working through it it's it's just messy it's the hard stuff right but but that's the thing it's like yeah anything worth solving is going to be hard it's going to have people attached to it and particularly in the mission-driven space I think you are spot on that there is this sort of consolidation that's happening anyways whether you want it or not just that's kind of how those that contribute donors you know they don't really want to interact with a local united way per se the internet makes it very easy for them to just find the cause that they care about locally and give so it's either like hyper local or it's very big it could seem yeah that was an interesting time yeah so it's just you know the the premp the two the when we had talked by our mimicry and where my head went to and I was writing this piece and I just don't have finishes big ideas right and it got me into I think a lot of organizations and right now they're they're really being forced out of it but stagnation creeps in really quickly and I'm calling it stagnation but you call status quo to me they're they're one in the same and it's hard to tell when you're in it right I mean we have these same numbers that looks good that we still have money coming in that's good I think those that we're really getting by on the status quo in the middle of add this pandemic add the stress of trying to figure out how to run a remote organization overnight and then trying to catch up with all of your constituents at the same time anyone who had just been status quo again I think it's probably going to feel that a lot more than those who might have been willing to say what are the big ideas and I was thinking for small animals and they need to survive in nature what do you do you make yourself look really big right and that's a protection mechanism I think of that less in terms of like the attack or someone these organizations going under but more you need the big ideas to motivate your staff to get past the status quo to get out of stagnation to get moving towards the future and you know this too shall pass this virus will go away things are going to come back we're all going to hang out again at a bar someday probably in a couple months it's going to be great I'm going to go to a concert but what what were the big ideas that are going to get you through this to that next place you know and then transformation and an evolution and even with the biomimicry with the wayfinding yeah I think as humans we constantly always remove ourselves from the environment equation as if we're not part of that evolution that got us here over time and I'm wondering like in the wayfinding is it their sensing that goes on right if you're really in tune like I could feel the weather coming oh maybe I'm going to chill out while the storm comes right right oh maybe I'm not going to try to cross the river because all this range has happened yeah like getting out of the that there has to be a set path transformation is messy yes organizational evolution is messy and we are creatures and it involves people so how which is totally true so then I guess where my mind is going here is like how do you how do you cultivate those skills right that sort of awareness and that because it's a bit of intuition right there's there's that combination of like intuition but knowing when to like when to lean into ambiguity and then when to wrestle with it and start bringing some clarity uncertainty you know and I think that part in part might be why I gravitated away from like project management as a formal discipline because it always felt very binary and rigid you know here's the project plan schedule and follow this and you know you're going to engineer it without the other side and you're done um but the world is messier than that and and this this is um just thinking about my own career it's a challenge I have also had right there's there's not really there isn't a market for like or there isn't a title that you put on LinkedIn that is like get shit done you know what I mean you take right like take crazy messy things um put some order to it you know and by the way have a good enough handle on how much ordered versus two you know not enough and you know like one I less than I learned when I was at the nature insurance we had a big project there where we were going through a an agile transformation right like software development rebuilding or agile processes dual track discovery and delivery all these beautiful words and we were so in love with that process and it was beautiful it was elegant and then you know we really let the problem that we were trying to solve get away from us so it ended up being that we had a well engineered and this is common right a well engineered um solution for a problem that didn't exist but the process that got us there was great oh man yeah that's so I kind of threw a few things in there but it is what I wrestle with it's just this like how do you like what is the market or how do you cultivate or is there even a market for that sort of softer wayfinding skill set that seems really valuable you know like every job that I once I've gotten in the door people are like oh my god I'm so glad you're here here's you know here's some messy stuff right yeah I've had a lot of that I don't know what you do and then when I was about to leave they're like please don't leave yeah right and it's and I did spend a lot of time thinking about this someone how do you bottle the x-factory you know we had a client who came to us they changed jobs got stuck in a messy bit of a an effort came to one of our happy hours and he's like I don't know anyone else who does this I don't even know how to describe it but I need you to come in and help me right and that that felt good to me personally but then I thought about my company and I'm like how do I describe this publicly yeah right because it's not just an it factor it's not just because Tony knows how to do that one thing I think it's I think there is a type of discipline I do think it's this multidisciplinary integrator type that you can bring in the people who have the hard focus on numbers and we were supposed to be somewhere in two weeks why aren't we there I I think you need that analytic approach you know that those type of analysts I think you need the big dreamer on the other side that's saying why can't I do this amazing big idea thing and then somewhere in the middle you facilitate it to push it forward a little yeah I've been where you've been too or it's like you've planned so intensely for so long to put out the most perfect thing and then it just fails to deliver it's like sometimes when you go on one of those vacations you've been waiting for forever to see some monument and you get there and it's like oh that's it you realize you know you start to realize it's the journey not the destination but nonetheless like how so I think that's it how do we how do I really like that too I mean how do you balance none of us like the ambiguity I mean that's what's making this moment so scary is there's it's people are getting sick which is frightening and but there's misinformation and it's something we don't know so it's new and there's this unknown and you're adding the two things that really just rattle people big time this is I mean this is the moment I think where transformation has to come into these organizations this you are also facing that like what's the future of work yeah where are we going what do we need from a policy organization in 2020 and 2025 right what are the boundaries in the borders and can we start solving things instead of talking about them you know do we get to a place where we're solutions oriented above I just need to stay in this role you and I had talked about again in the nonprofit space shouldn't we all be trying to not be in a job right so and I I get that come across as crass and you know what I'm saying I appreciate all the hard work that goes into it I mean people are really doing great work but eventually we want to solve the thing like we want to do we want a disease to go away yeah I mean but I guess yeah I don't know what that's making you think about and and how do we get back into are we tying this enough to biomimicry yes exactly so that honestly is kind of where my this recent fascination I've got with biomimicry is kind of rooted right it's like this so prefacing it so biomimicry is supposed to be like innovation inspired by nature we talked about this right like nature's got 3.8 billion years of r&d it's really figured out how to solve some pretty nasty problems and using readily available materials at you know air temperature a little bit of water right like we talked about that example like spider silking about five times stronger than steel and made of what crickets and water and some carbon you know but um but what what I find fascinating about it is that it also seems to kind of hold like a root cause solution right so rather than and so here's what I'm kind of going with it like this is still kind of loose in my head but there's there's been a there's been plenty of emphasis recently maybe in past 10 years let's say on really how to get people demanding a better world right like the world's a mess put pressure on the businesses and the politicians have better products and better policies and therefore we can protect the environment and things are going to get better and and a lot of the advocacy work and that storytelling work has been successful you've got people that um have been influenced and they they've created that demand so if you think of like supply and demand we've taken this demand curve and we've shifted it yeah and then on the other side though you still got supply and kind of its same old place and there's nobody really pushing on the supply side of things you've got businesses that are responding to this demand with CSR kind of stuff and um you know with more sustainable products and so that caters to people who are willing to pay a premium for for those things but it it hasn't really fundamentally shifted the like the raw inputs into those supplies we still pull those things out of the ground heat beat and treat is kind of the mantra you hear of how we our industrial revolution processes right and so that got me to think of of well nature's been around for quite a while figuring out quite a lot of complex things you can look at um I mean like a quick example is I think the abalone the um shell is harder than our porcelain in our in our teeth or it's hard harder than any kind of porcelain we could manufacture and it's just you know again made out of like calcium and carbonate some water like how could you we get inspired by the way that nature produces these materials um building on on this a little bit the the question that I had that kind of got me on this path was like it's been vexing me for a long time I've been in this business of of trying to get people to care about a better world you know like one of the earliest gigs I had here was at a local design like you and I met at three spot right so yeah and even before that it was this kind of like creativity with a conscience kind of work um I feel that perhaps we we've really saturated that market the people are going to care or the type of people that are going to care they care and we're not really we might be as people kind of enter or exit we might be bringing new people in but the the size of that group isn't significantly changing and so maybe it would what we need is a way to ensure that we have a a good planet that doesn't even require people to care right so what if the products that you bought and the lifestyle that you lead um all of those decisions and all those choices created a better planet because the cup of coffee that you buy is a hundred percent compostable or the plastic bag is actually not made up of of oil it's you know it's made of some sort of cellulose right like there's just those or the clothes that you buy are actually mostly wood fiber instead of cotton or the color on your car actually isn't paint it's um it's colored through structure just like how butterflies and beetles give color not through pigment but through the way that their cells refract light you know like that kind of stuff I mean there's there's a lot of um there's just there's a lot of opportunity there so what what about um what if you had shoes for kids that grew with their feet instead of having to buy new shoes all the time right there's a guy right now that has figured out how to make cement blocks um which is basically you know it's like co2 and and and some water and I'm getting a little bit wrong but but basically he's taking a byproduct of some of our processes and then converting it into a construction material um so anyway I'm not quite getting all exactly right because I'm still new in my learning on this topic but I just find it really fascinating that rather than continuing with these old industrial revolution processes and continuing to invest a lot of r&d and how we might rip out more shale or you know cut more from the forests are there ways that we could pump that kind of resources into ways that are a little more aligned with just kind of how nature works and still get the same utility the same disposability the same affordability the same convenience the answer seems like they're like it's getting closer and closer to yes um and and in my mind I see this like there's like there's almost a business opportunity where you've got industries or you know parts of the economy that are dirty you know that just kind of pollute a lot where you've got these sustainable substitutes that are already being produced and where they're you know commodities they're in everyday use kind of hit that intersection and and um that seems like a good early place to start rethinking um the direction our economy could go you know and finding new business opportunities carrying that a little further um you know there's there's a there's there's also a gap between the kind of traditional STEM academic curriculum and then what you do once you come out on the other side and have to get a job most of these engineers end up getting into um those high paying defense contract or at least around this area right in the DC area like you end up fairly fast tracked into jobs that pay well but you know there's not much connection to the environment so what if we were re-engineering and rethinking how we create our materials and and they're more affordable those types of engineering opportunities because they're tied to viable marketable products right there's got to be more of a business there's a business need like this would still be well paying um because that was the other thing that's been wrestling I've been wrestling with is how can you still do the right thing for the planet and not have to sacrifice your well-being your income right like your livelihood I mean there is there's like let's let's stop denying that look you know people they need to take care of themselves and their family and I struggle with this in that after 20 years of working for nonprofits you know you start sometimes you feel like a chump you're like sure it pays well but um right right yeah well don't feel like a chump man there's a lot of us in the fight like wow it's like it's it is not a path to wealth no it's not but then you make a lot of strong points here and I think there's there's part of this evolution that that's got to happen right these big ideas are the things that are whatever massively changing right societal impacts and this is why you get up in the morning right I I don't know too many people who wake up and think man if I could just sell a couple hundred more cheeseburgers then I'll make another million dollars like that's what I've always wanted to do like a little me wanted to be that person I think a little little me wanted to be a world-changing ideas person or someone who was on a fire truck helping out in a time of need I think everyone I like to believe in the in the best of all of us and that that we there is an intrinsic altruism through us as a human society that we do want to do better it's just we we put we pit the wrong incentives out there and we we pit ourselves against the societal incentive of you should have this thing you should have this type of thing instead of how do we do this together and get something big out the door I I think you have made a good point a little while ago though which is you know in the idea of how do we help the environment with people with habits they already have without having to try to change them because changes change management is incredible right and now now and then you're saying do that on a global scale that's what we are literally saying today March 17th 2020 everybody stop what you're doing change all of your habits and patterns immediately for the unbeknownst time of two to eight weeks we're not saying even do that for a lifetime right we're saying for like half a month to two months just do something different and it's a struggle like it's it's going to be hard so I like the idea of what are people doing and how do we meet them there can we create packaging that to your point I might not be thinking about the environment at that time but I didn't have to because somebody else did and made the product and now that product is in a sustainable place that I don't have to worry about that because you know if I think back to the teams and the organizations and the mission driven sector in general like sooner or later it's going to be something that you can do I don't have to worry about that Andrew's got that yeah like what because you can't worry about all of it because then you'll be paralyzed exactly but that's kind of what's happening right now with a lot of this you know conservation stuff I mean you um the average recycling bin in your average office right there's like four slots for all these different things like which one I don't know yes yeah if anyone's listened to this show and has heard me talk that is the one thing in this world I actually want to solve which is nuts yeah it's different state by state it's different country by country different everywhere and so that I mean honestly that was kind of the experience I'm like why should this even matter why are we pushing this burden on people when you know what I mean we're expecting them to change the behavior and the outcome of that is they're not good you know or they might when there's not as much going on in life but I know from my own experience you know before kids to young children to you know the kids I've got now it's it's uh those pressures and demands on your time you get to the point where you know you're like uh it's just quicker and easier to pull out the paper flakes for this dinner party rather than you know doing yet another round of dishes or whatever I mean those are small things but on a small scale all that sub magnifies right like what if you could just do those things that are convenient and affordable and and in so doing the planet's all good you don't got to worry about it we got you covered you know it'd be great be great you can still do the behavior change there's still a need for storytelling there's still a need for policy there's still a need for that stuff um but I do fundamentally think that there's a group of people that those tactics the storytelling and advocacy is just not gonna reach so why should we expect it to reach them why not just reach them like you said where they are you know yeah how do we start taking the initiative to meet people where they're at and have those big ideas to move it forward instead of just now I have to go convince another hundred million people to do something different tomorrow yeah I mean I'm really stuck on these like these basic economic theory principles you know like that was the diminishing marginal returns and I really I just I feel like that's where we're at right now with a lot of these the storytelling and these tactics they're great keep at it but you know to try to get that final little bit of people you're gonna have to have infinitely more resources because you've already got the ones that you're gonna get easily and then you gotta you got it like the story that you're telling right now they're gonna work for the rest so you know you gotta tell a different story well that's a whole new ramp up of of of creativity and engagement and maybe it's not going to be on social media maybe you gotta go to the NASCAR races and set up a booth or you know what I mean like it's a very different approach this is it's interesting I mean this you're now you're you're taking me full circle back I mean this literally is why we came up with the frame engagement architecture was I it was really heavily influenced by the book the attention merchants and just man I even it's this other book I just listened to recently too trust me I'm lying about media manipulation it has really also so the attention merchants got me thinking if everyone's just trying to buy attention and you're trying to play in that space to your point right here or I need to increase how many people I can reach I need to get more of this message out there that message doesn't do anything man yeah you have to then build an affinity with that one person you reached and I saw this crazy stat at the time I went into the presentation after I read this book and it was 99 dollars was spent on attention one dollar was spent on conversion yeah right that that's just staggering right to me and I'm like we gotta we gotta reverse that if that's not even 50 50 though those of you are right to me because once I have you then I have the opportunity to now build a relationship and in my theory is I've had this I call it the bubble gum theory I think of a double bubble with the wrap because my wife all the time but it's it's got two funnels and it's a big chewy middle yeah our old communication models were reaching gauge and impact and I would look at it and I'd be like what happened like you need me to come back yeah so the bubble gum model to me as I get you in and I build that heavy infinity give you something to chew on for a long time and if I give you an action come back with another friend so I feel like yeah I mean what you're hitting on to me really is about the engagement modeling which is I have your attention you actually care about my cause how do I empower you to be an advocate for that yeah and I've got to be okay with you taking some of my message as your brand like it's now you like I'm think I'm Parsons TKO you guys think we're the best and now you're taking some of that brand to say I read their materials look how smart I am but go forward with it right and move that forward and I think that's something some organizations also need to get a better embrace of which is how do I let my audience that I've built a relationship from start to amplify for me because I can't be in all places at all times with one single message and try to beat people who literally need a click to make a dollar they will have salacious headlines they will do crazy things they will put stuff out that's not true like we're in the mission-driven space will never compete with that right we have to be tried true solid in our messaging offering things where people are building their relationship but then giving the toolkit and maybe this to your point is in nature and bio mimicry there's always the feedback loop or feedback method mechanism of the sensing part we talked about earlier this remember web 2.0 was a term yeah everyone's going to participate but like it never really came to fruition and we never really I still don't know any group that really does great listening to the audience on an idea like how how do you do that I mean that people talk about engagement metrics with us and they're like yeah somebody liked my tweet sort of engagement really but how many people are actually coming and giving you real feedback not like I just copied and pasted something like I cared enough about what you put out this is and I tried to implement it in my community and here's what I found and I don't even I don't even know you right you were and first of all wow thank you second what's the feedback and our so is I'm just thinking in the bio mimicry big idea space is do we need to start getting better at having these mechanisms once we know who our audiences are once we know who's engaged with us that we can actually start listening and incorporating what we're learning from what's happening in the world around us as well yeah instead of to your point earlier here's the here's the job executives and I will get to point here by 2020 oh I gotta hold I gotta hold something here all right so this this book is that right side up yeah this book would be a great book for you um it's like the textbook on human center design meets bio mimicry and in in there they talk about sort of abstracting the problem you're trying to solve right so getting kind of like what's the feature or what's the function feedback loops right and then you start to look at what kind of feedback loops work in nature you might need a little more detail than just feedback loops like few feedback loops that you know I don't have a brainstorm that out of it but anyway then you start looking at how is that solved in nature and that kind of it sort of inserts in your research stage you know different biological models as reference points as mentor as models coach or as you know some unit of measure uh that in anyway so it's a really cool book in that it makes it very approachable and it just kind of blends the two disciplines together in a way that's actionable right so you know I think a lot of people are now more comfortable with human centered design ways of solving problems and if not as a like a dogmatic approach but if you know a flexible framework and that's kind of how this stuff plugs in there um two things can you what's the name of the book it is called biomimicry resource handbook a sea bank of best practices by dana bowmeister all right so we'll get the we'll get that name we'll get a link we'll get that in the the show notes here can you just for anyone who's listening because I feel like it's one of those terms that get tossed out and it's it's tossed out so much that to your earlier point people feel like they should know what it means so they don't ask human human centered design can you yeah break that down I mean it depends on how deep you want to go on that right but that's just like when you are engineering us through solving a problem rather than starting with the what do we want it to do it's like it's really getting clear on who you solving that problem for like having those humans at the middle at the core of the solution and at the core of your like you're constantly thinking about that person so for example on this this campaign for nature project you know we got clear very early on that our our focus is the elite audience we're talking to people who we're going to preach to the choir and we're really targeting the ministers of environment and the heads of state and so that helps us for everything that we're putting out there will just resonate with that group and even more specifically you know we because there's not that many of them really you know it's like who are the key countries are after who are the specific individuals and as we're putting together messaging you know does this meet the specific characteristics in that country in that location but but there's a whole framework around you know how you can do that the going broad and doing your research and then narrowing it down and then doing some testing and brainstorming and modeling and you know I would I am by no means an expert on this right I'm sort of the jack of all trades of frameworks of how to solve problems but I've added that to my toolbox when I was shifting from agile software development and then into just kind of more broad-based program management I felt those two work very well together because the agile software world is really all about very quickly iteratively working through problems ideally focused on specific personas but this stuff is really like you know get clear about your customers you know and what's that problem that they got and don't lose sight of that right that's interesting so do you I mean do we think it's I could see who are we solving this for really tying into a why and a goal but then it then you kind of push that into the section of but it's the audience we're targeting to yeah is it one in the same do you think ooh no may have kind of blended that I mean in this case it kind of is in that like we do have a secondary target with the general public but we really are trying to make sure that those environment ministers and the heads of states publicly support what we're trying to do and so if they don't feel so for example um we were trying to run articles in our online Nat Geo magazine and some of the this is kind of inside baseball here but we're we're right now gathering success stories from specific countries that we're trying to target and so if we can present a very compelling image like make this country look good because they've done great things for the environment they'll be more likely to join our cause and support our position so a lot of like how we're thinking about it is really who we try to influence what's their current position and how can we win them over seems a little manipulative but well I mean it you could feel that way if you were doing it or if you were doing it obscured without knowledge without transparency yeah you know I you know if somebody wants me to eat their hamburger it's okay if I get the advertisement and it comes over it's bad when you're putting it on my my kid's flyer that came home from school because he sponsored it right okay there's I mean I think there is manipulation and then I think there is trying to convince people how to that that what you're doing is the right thing and when we're critical thinking can be applied that that's how we get to the better places you know I'm very much of the content philosophy the power of better argument should win I think as a society and as and as working organizations a lot of us have lost the ability of how to argue constructively I think that's something we need to bring back as well like disagreement isn't disrespect you know if everyone is suddenly in alignment and there never was anyone who had a differing opinion like that's when I get really nervous I'm like what doesn't seem right I can't believe everybody thinks the way I think come on yeah yeah that kind of hits a culture right because not all places have that the culture where the challenge is welcome you know right I think a hundred percent I think that's where there's I think that's some of the dissatisfaction I think that's some of the stagnation I think that was where when I was thinking after our lunch about the the big ideas yeah the biomimicry it was that like what's the crazy idea that's laughable yeah you know I have a friend she started a consulting firm and she's bringing comedy into the boardroom right can we make something laughable because in comedy people say really serious truths right that are uncomfortable occasionally but they put it on the table in a way where it's not or it's disarming that's threatening yeah and now you can talk about it yeah and I think in a lot of organizations maybe pride goes before fall I also I just think that the annual goals create occasionally disincentives for collaboration you have to achieve this and I have to achieve this and oh my god now we got to touch the same system but I had q1 planned and you weren't planned to q3 and oh my gosh we can never make this work right the the ghost but the streams will cross and I don't know what will happen you gotta have to tell us later but uh yeah I I think you're right I mean and when you think about again this is tying our theme here biomimicry and culture like we are a culture and we have to learn how to start working together differently in these organizations and I it's interesting when I took one of my first executive jobs and I talked to my father and he had sent me this email he's like what is his stuff I would usually say to people because he'd been doing it a lot longer than me so I took his advice one of those was hey all ideas it's basically the sum of all ideas are welcome and we want them on the table but you also have to understand that we have to make decisions and as all your ideas might not be incorporated and that doesn't mean we're not trying that doesn't mean we don't respect what you were putting on the table but we still have to keep this company in this organization moving forward yeah and so it's not always going to be inclusive there is going to be moments where something happens as a directive because speed is of the speed is a priority or that's just what needed to take place but the goal is to get as many voices as you can always you know so I think this comes back to you know leadership we are we are social creatures right and we who's who in those ranks and we still will operate in a hierarchical society and we do tend to still respect that but we need the leader at the top to be the kind of person who then in these change and transformation moments can adapt and open up yeah people have to be willing to say I'm willing to hear everything out there not just to be right how are you entering the conversation it's so simple people talk about open-minded let's be open but to really be open-minded it's hard yeah right yeah you're coming in with you're coming in with a lot of baggage and I I think so silo busting I thought about with transformation people used to call me a silo buster and I was like okay cool yeah silos are bad and then I thought more again about integrating the work and I'm like no you actually need what I'm calling verticals of knowledge instead of silos now yeah I think it sounds better but you need verticals of knowledge because people need career growth they need to focus on a discipline maybe they're making a product maybe they're making a policy output maybe they're making a vaccine they need to be inside of that right the other the operational parts of the organization have to cut across all that so yes the communications professor professional won't know exactly every detail you know about this vaccine but they know how to get the message out yeah they're an expert too yeah but let's not have a food fight over how we're calling people experts how do we integrate the work to make sure the whole organization and the objective goes forward yeah I think we've we've been all over the place here in this in this conversation so maybe our audience can see you and I enjoy large idea ambiguous conversations maybe join us in one of these because it's not about having the answers it's about I think getting the right questions right yeah and just having that curiosity you know I mean yeah I'm what this is leaving me with I want to I want to think more on the like what what's sort of the like parallel in nature for that integrator function or purpose or role or you know then mold that one over a little bit but that's you know right because it's kind of we keep coming coming back to that is there's a gap there's there's a need and there is but there's not this like it isn't a formal thing you will never see a chief integrator job right I've been asked and I don't know I don't know what it is I don't even know what the title is yeah and so maybe maybe there is some sort of parallel that might help kind of gel around like exactly what it is or make it because I I mean seriously I've always struggled in like what do you do I'm like oh my god I could get I don't know how to answer that question you know I've never have known how to really give a clear answer because it just comes across there's just so many different things is the integration element the one that passes through like water tree and the leaves and everything does what it's supposed to do the water comes and goes but it helps facilitate all of the action within it yeah it's not meant to be the tree yeah it's not meant to tell the tree how to make the leaves happen it's not meant to to think about when to shift if the sun's moving it's interesting I was through a whole deep exploration a while ago of like really I wrote an article at one point it was like live like water and that was really getting inspired by sort of like the characteristics of of water you know that can be a whole other conversation for another time but that's interesting that yeah you kind of bring that up because I see a lot of similarities there there was a phase I had where I was reading the the Dowdy Ching you know that book but like the Dowdy Ching right there was chapter eight was all about like water and I had that printed out for quite a while I was all into that I still I mean I think I feel like you know well I don't have it memorized those principles I still feel very attached to right yeah yeah yeah that's interesting so what you say you've already given us one book to potentially read is there another favorite book of yours that you like to recommend or something that you're reading even periodical now that you might recommend and it's so yeah what do you like to read yeah I mean it kind of comes and goes right like definitely this biomimicry stuff has been um where I'm at right now but one that I really did love a while ago um Dan Harris it's like a news anchor guy he wrote this book 10 happier it was really all about like meditation as a way of managing the stress the ambiguity the uncertainty all the crazy so that was helpful but I just got a low battery notice by the way on my computer so if you lose me that's what's going on all right well Dan Harris 10% better yeah happier 10% happier 10% happier yeah Andrew Courtney thank you for your time today yes as always folks thank you if you've made it through uh it was we were ambiguous but we we hopefully got some ideas and maybe uh but please give us a comment leave a comment here on youtube if you're watching it there leave a comment on our blog reach out to us on email you know I think it could be fun if some of you would like to join us we could go remote social distance and have a nice zoom session and continue this conversation because it's something I'm really interested in and I think it has implications and uh applications uh for all of our organizations uh moving forward virtual lean coffee you know we just bring people together and like I like it yeah maybe we'll set that up all right but I appreciate it and thank you audience thank you Andrew thanks Tony it's been a pleasure yeah bye take care