 Good evening and welcome to pioneering progression Joan Littlewood and Theatre Royal Stratford East My name is Rob Watts and I work within the cultural events team here at the British Library This evening we will be celebrating the life and work of the theatre maker Joan Littlewood and the place that she called home during her illustrious career with Theatre Workshop Theatre Royal Stratford East We will be looking into the impact her work had during her lifetime Her legacy with successive artistic directors such as Philip Headley, Kerry Michael and Nadia Fall and Her values and innovative ways of working how they still inform the theatre world today During this 90-minute event We will be hearing from British Library curator Eleanor Dickens and the wonderful actor and theatre workshop alumnus Murray Melvin As they delve into the Joan Littlewood archive held here at the British Library Current artistic director Nadia Fall will be discussing the Theatre Royal Stratford East as it stands today and how Joan's values still affect the theatre now And finally we will be joined by Deputy Artistic Director of the National Theatre Clint Dyer Finding out what Theatre Royal Stratford East means to him This evening's event will be chaired by Shyma Pereira She's a former print and broadcast journalist She has written novels and short stories and freelancers as a writer critic and commentator She is chair of the South Asian Diaspora Arts Archive Which collects and conserves the work of first-generation British South Asian artists writers and performers So with that thank you all so much for joining us From all of us here at the British Library, we hope you enjoy this evening's event and it's over to you, Shyma Welcome to a conversation that I have been very much looking forward to my name is Shyma Pereira I'm a writer and broadcaster and I've been asked to talk today with two experts on the Theatre Royal Stratford East and the great directress Theatre person Innovator, Joan Littlewood. I hesitated there, Murray, when I said directress because I know Joan hated the word director Don't suppose she would have liked director any more But this is Murray Melvin and Murray has just donated an extraordinary archive of Theatre Royal Stratford East 131 years of archive to the British Library and he also worked with Joan at her Theatre Workshop So we're going to be finding out more about that and from Eleanor Dickens Who is lead curator of contemporary writing and creatives here at the British Library We're going to be hearing about not just Murray's donations to the archive But also some old photographs and the stuff that was already here But Murray we're here specifically because you have bought in this extraordinary collection of a hundred and forty three boxes of Programs letters photographs you tell me put it all together for us. Well I've been at this on a voluntary basis for 32 years only because my lovely Avis Spongage who was we used to call her the Queen of the Workshop and We were great chums and she died suddenly and Philip Headley who was the artistic director Was given an old brown suitcase full of Avis's Programs and photographs and bits and pieces and said to me Murray we haven't got an archive at Stratford Will you come in and sort it all out for me? Because it was Avis I went in and I sorted it all out Meanwhile he put an advert in Stratford Express that you know well Saying Murray's back and he's going to do an archive Now have you got anything in your bottom drawers and old programs that you're keeping? Will you bring them into him? Let me really you back a little bit there So this is the theatre was Stratford East you've by now the theatre workshop under Joan Littlewood is gone Philip Headley is the artistic director there. He's pulled you back in to put this archive together How far did you go back to I go back to 50s? 56 1956 as a dog's body a student. I was their first Person to be taken on as a student I had a grant for a year from the London Cooperative Society Which of course then had an educational program. They don't have that anymore. No sad sad And so I went as and so I painted the foyer and did all the things and Avis took me under her wing Queen of the workshop, but there was something about we got on very well. We were chums And did you at that point know that the theatre had a history that predated Joan? Or did you only find that out or we think about it? I suppose once you started putting the archive together absolutely. I mean, I hadn't realized it went back to 1884. I Hadn't realized that there was Italian opera there Very successful. It was but you see Stratford at that time was so different It was the greatest railway Terminal and so it had to have workers. So yeah, they had to have accommodation So they built those little two up two downs No bathroom outside Lou They went up very very quickly because they needed the workers You could draw a parallel to the National Health Service today We need the workers and to get them you've got a and so Stratford grew Very quickly very quickly, but there was no entertainment and so one actor manager Decided that they should have a theater and so we applied To build a theater Stratford Express said and about time to the Stratford Express We should explain is the local paper on which I also worked, but not a hundred and thirty one years ago No, no, no So so he applied and he got lots of objections Mainly from the church The Reverend Pelley was very worried about a house For respectable gentle women How long would they stay respectable if actors were unleashed? How would they want to stay? They would have found them they were busy queuing up for the gods to go and see them and however However The local magistrates thought it was a very good idea And gave him permission and as the Stratford Express says and about time They were really ahead of the game and they've been there this Stratford Express I'm looking at my short history of the theatre All the way along that they supported they supported it He built it in three months At a cost of Wow, remember and what he did was he already there was a Wheelwrights shop and he bought the wheelwrights shop and they built the theater within the existing What is the front of the house the walls were very thick and very good, so they kept that wall They knocked holes in it for windows and that became the front of the theater and so the theater inside Ran sideways down. Yes, it does because you go down the side and the theaters over here Isn't it right once you're in once you're in yes, and so it was Put the cost down put the cost down It was very successful because we were into Melodrama of course 1884 he took all the lead parts and so he up to then he'd been part of a What the cord in those days a set up a company Put on plays Once did flats they put on plays all the way around and so He brought that company Into the theater He took all the main leads He was very good. He put on the original the original Review says they weren't quite sure what it had done to earn the title royal But if that was to reflect The productions that he was going to put on they accepted it and he did put on very good Productions what he was no good at was money and so within 18 months. He's sold out to To the family who ran the setups on once did flats and they took over So these were the theaters that were setting up and just doing shows They buy this theater for themselves and create a permanent home. Yes And of course everybody went what did they do with the all these railway workers at the end of the evening with their families? So they flooded To the rock and that's where it becomes I found it became interesting when we got to the first World War now if I can jump ahead To the workshop arriving in 53 two members of that and an Oscar tapper Went they were the original archivists They went to the Stratford Express because the Stratford Express every week put in what was playing at the Royal and they garnered not only the the dates But the names of the productions and it was interesting when you got to the first World War You what I found interesting especially to today When on radio for I hear gentlemen of authority talking about the third World War You can trace by the productions the patriotism Because a propaganda that went through the country It's another son a lost cause the child. I will never see again. I mean it's very emotional a Very emotional and you see how the country I found that very disturbing and I find it even more disturbing today when you think here we go again Well, the theater has lived through two major wars. Yes. Goodness knows what's to come And just tell me when this archive arrived You I think live in East London, but did you know that there was this? astonishing history behind the local theater No, so I live in Newham local to Newham and no, I didn't I knew the theater was there I was aware of it But no, I had no idea and tell I came to the British library And this is actually my first job here was cataloging Jones archive So we have two collections the one that Murray's donated and Jones personal archive And and that was kind of my first introduction to her really. I mean what an introduction is her, you know her collections Yeah, I find it so fascinating Murray Murray's, you know referencing the Stratford Express Which of course in those days the local paper is the place where you can find all that history Of a building, you know, you can check you can check the fact I don't know what the modern Equivalent would be but compared to many other theater archives. Is this quite comprehensive? Um, I think I think it is yes. I mean a lot of Theaters tend to keep their own archives obviously so they do stay fairly complete. I think The way that this one is magical in its comprehension is a what Murray's been talking about how it Covers the different companies coming through but also how nicely it works together with Jones So we have her personal archive as well And so you kind of get the difference between what the theater would keep and what would stay in a theater and what be in the theater building to What Joan? Her self personally thought was special and took home basically and kept in her collection And then what they now do now that Murray has donated He's amazing collection is come together in a really beautiful way and paint that picture And were there any surprises when you were going through it? Yes, I think I think And for different parts for the different collections, so I think what's really nice about Murray's collection is that it's brought together chronologically Which isn't how we would normally catalog something and it's actually kind of made me think a bit differently about that so what Murray has done is kind of there will be a year so 1955 and Everything from those productions in chronological order is in in the box So photos programs Correspondents and they just all come together so nicely that you get you can just completely imagine that year and and how it all came together Whereas our normal process would kind of be to pull things out and have a series of scripts and a series of correspondence and a series of photos So that was that was really enjoyable actually for me to see it brought together in that way and think that's a really lovely way of doing it for Jones archive, I think It's a little different. There's often with archives one of the most magical things is gaps in them Rather than what's in them. Yeah, and because that says such a lot about the person and particularly in this case where it's a Personal archive you learn about that person by how they've chosen to arrange it and what's missing and I think Jones I Think I said this to you when we talked about it before it has it's a bit of a love letter to her partner Jerry and he looms very heavily in the archive and For example, it's a very very well organized archive and tell the point he passes away in 75 and Then it's just It seems to me actually having been reading about Jim Littlewood and about the theatre of Stratford East that she has always been dependent If I can turn I can't think who said it now actually it's gone from my head, but you know, it's not the cut It's he's always been depends. She's always been dependent on the kindness of men Because you know, she had Jerry raffles who was her partner who will come to who was supporting her through everything and subsequently You know here is Melvin sort of putting it. I've been putting it all together for her I think She obviously did have a an effect on blokes Mervin. Oh, yeah. Yes. What was that? Big head a bit, but I just want a bit of I know I know But you know, we were at the first world war now the theater was open During the first world war where it wasn't in the second because all theater every place of entertainment was closed But it went through with the fact so you've got those names of all the productions through with the first world war But then when that ended The country was again it reflects the country Was in a terrible state you had the Spanish flu Just like we've got now It's rather scary It's the sameness coming and but then It carried on but then you see you've got in this happened to all the theaters in England you've got talkies coming in and so talkies took over television Came in together all the theaters in England suffered because of this Then you've got to the second world war of course, and then it was closed It was used as a potato storage. Oh Well, it was useful still well absolutely. You see it got a use and and but then of course films came in color came in cinema scope came in and and The theaters all Through the country all diminished everybody stayed at home and so the royal People took it over Tried something failed did no maintenance Just went in on short term you've got three Really serious people Who had a go and and You've got G Roland sales Evelyn Dysart. There was David Horn who for three years Took it back to its theater Times and and and ran very good programs. I've got them all But at the end of three years Cinema scope The theaters just died and he lost a lot of money But as he says he enjoyed it because it was it was a lovely pretty little house So by by the time that Jerry Littlewood and her partner Jerry raffles come across The theater what state is it in? Well, they did the year before Jerry was organizing their tour and Just by happen chance he telephoned the royal to see if they've got a week and this was the year before and They were coming to an end because they'd run out of money and they said oh, yes. Oh, yes Yes, we'd love to have you so they came down from there from Glasgow and they did a week at the Royal a Year later it was up for rent in a terrible condition and Jerry had enough money for six weeks rent and they took it. They came down from Glasgow Found the Royal in this terrible state And as I say it was six weeks that have never ended they took it on Monday's were black Monday's the company Did the roof paint his pieces even my first job in 57 was to paint the gold filigree in the foyer of Machums that was my first job Because the curricula for an actor with theater workshop was a little different from those Establishments that so-called trained Eleanor when you were putting together all of the Joan little wood History as well as the theatre royal. What is it to you that made the theatre workshop different? and I think it as Murray just said about how at the time that Joan was bringing together the company and also with With you and McColl at the time they had been a traveling company up into the point that they settled in theatre workshop and It was their way of rehearsing together and how Joan was training the actors that was Like Murray said that was not happening in the UK. You didn't have a fixed company in the same way attached with it and so the way that Joan brought together and they were teaching them blarbon, which is a style of movement and Basing on them Stanislavsky, which now I think is probably if you go to drama school, you know That's the core Curriculum, but it wasn't at the time and that's not how actors were trained And and it also I think is a mix of obviously at that point it everybody was still quite idealistic as well Everybody in that company cared about it as much as Joan. So they were you know, they were prepared to be living in the theatre You know not getting low wages training together and it had that really cohesive kind of company Bonding I guess yeah because You know, you were kind of all in it together. Everybody was in the same position. Joan wasn't some sort of rich director that was you know Living a different life to them. She was there in the theatre as well And I think that was very unique at the time Absolutely, how other any other theatres probably in the uk were working, but it did become What most theatre practice after that point was based on you know, it's you think just what ellen has been saying the two greatest Theatre directors of the 20th century Joan and Edward Peterbrook They both had to go to paris To be recognized We didn't Recognize them. They didn't like them because they didn't we didn't understand them So they had to go to the continent to Be recognized. Did you have a continental sensibility? Would you say was that much? No, but it started it starts with Stanislavski in Russia You come down through Poland Italy for media France And the Trojan horse brought it in To England and it stuck with sorry to kind it stuck with Joan I think that treatment another thing that I really noticed in the archive that it's really nice is that Joan notoriously refused a lot of awards and various OBE for example And but she accepted European ones So in the and even when she accepted a honorary doctorate from the open university, which was in the 90s She insisted on graduating in in Europe So it kind of shows that that stuck with her even to that point that She always felt like she really had to fight through the door in the uk whereas in you know in in Europe. They were Absolutely lorded and she You know she stuck to that She just loved our language you see well, I'm I'm interested in that Murray because you actually worked with her You know, you were part of her team for a very very long time. You her friend until she died So take me back to you know, what it was like to be working as part of that ensemble And what was different about it for you because you were coming in. Yes, but then don't forget. I hadn't been to drama school I was you know, I I didn't know you were not on the new No, no, actually, you know and and she loved me because she was just to say you were thrown out of school at the age of 14 Which I was after the wall because I couldn't master fractions And I never went to drama school and she used to say to people you see Murray's Couple of steps ahead of you He never had an English education and he never went to drama school and I used to say at the time And it wasn't till later That I realized that I had no parameters of what should be I spoke dreadfully I Didn't know what you did theatrically And that's what she because so she trained me from scratch And of course I had a pre classical education And so movement wise Which what is she loved movement was Joan and so I picked up larbonne very quickly very quickly because my body was already trained And she loved that she said that was movement and body language and body language And that's what what max will show a member of her company says at the time nobody knew where to put Her theater was it ballet? Was it opera? It was it was because it was some of everything but it was theater was the main She was political Everything was political very political, but it had to be theater first very It was unique and when you when you use that term, what do you mean by theater first? What differentiates it from any other? Today they often say oh, it's because working class theater started with Joan. No no That came later, you know if after Joan you had Unkept hair and you talked With a cockney accent you became an actor She wouldn't have that She wouldn't have that her command of English Was ginormous I mean Whether she read all the books That she'd got Well, she made you do quite a lot of reading didn't she? Oh, she well that was one of the unique things with Joan and theater workshop You studied the period Maxwell Shaw a member said when he joined He joined in 54 They worked on how The production was done originally I was with the company We did sparrows can't sing in the maxim gawky in berlin where she had worked before And when we were there We were invited to Brex theater He wasn't alive, but she was And we said um you coming to the oh, she's no no Can't bear those museums It's a museum. She said no. I've been invited by the east to lunch. Well, it's a lucky you She came back from lunch in her sunray pleated skirt that she liked dancing away because they had offered to build her Joan a theater of her own and match the funding they gave to hair braid We said wow The next day we were going out somewhere She would know she had been invited to lunch by the west Who had heard about the lunch from the east And she came back skipping away Say they've heard so they're going to build me a theater and they're going to increase the grant That the east are going to give me And of course we our faces all fell Which which one are you going to accept? And it's often did with Joan that face went from smiling thing to thunder Thunder in front of you. What do you mean? Which one are we going to am I going to choose? I mean, it's always always what you've always wanted a theater of your own and and money to She says yes, I know that But she said we forgot the finest language in the world And anyway, none of you bugger speak German. So what would I be doing here? Right So east west so she came met. Yeah, absolutely And so we came back to poverty Okay, so just let me take you back because I've got to have a bit of fun here I did ask you about her effect on men because it does seem to be quite market You know remarkable What was it about her that you loved and that has kept you so engaged still with her legacy today? Well, you know She was a queen As she used to explain to us when we were doing Shakespeare Kings and queens are made by the space you give them She used to shout out you're too near get out and She was the same and and she thought touching was was Giving in you never touch because of stanislavski larbon you have your cube Your space your own personal space You go through that personal space you either go through it to touch to kiss Order kill Otherwise, you've never went through that space. You've never went through jones space She was like a queen. You've never touched her She's very she sometimes touched you if I get on there quick but You've never but she always you look at the photo if she has space around her She's quite terrifying then. Yes But that made her attractive didn't it? Lots of men obviously. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes And so and also she had this the timbre of this voice Which was seductive Mervyn I have to ask you about that because I went and listened to radio interviews with Joan Littlewood and I was expecting because of her Huge love of the working class the fact that she saw the theater in their everyday lives That she wanted to reflect that in the work that you did that she worked in an ensemble to create Authentic work using authentic voices and authentic stories And I was expecting this little cockney sparrow to be talking to me and there was this modulated beautiful voice And yet she was a an illegitimate girl from stockwell. How did that happen? Well because Yes, she was that girl from stockwell But she was trained by the nuns She got yes, she got a scholarship And and and went to the local conference for training now You couldn't all right They corrected your english and so her english started fact It is beautiful And of course she was highly well read Whether she had read them all but she convinced you that she knew what was in them And she told you what to do because of it but she was fascinating well Elna I also struggled to find a lot of photographs Uh of jone littlewood and was so excited when you pulled out just before this interview started Photographs of jone with jerry raffles, which she was first with you and mccoll But then when she went to the theater role She was with jerry raffles that the the square in which the theater stands is called jerry raffle square And she adored him but you've both said, you know how After he died really that was that was the end of it for jones And you've got these wonderful photographs. What what else do you have that sort of gives us insights into jone littlewood the person? um I mean everything every aspect really so The photos we have some beautiful photos as you can see here There aren't many personal photos of jone or jerry just a few Which sort of makes them more special in a way like them on their boats. They jerry was loved boats um I think actually of the personal side of her we have diaries. There's 91 of her personal diaries Um, which go all the way from the 40s and tell the day she died She wrote in her diary the day before she died So they cover without any gaps. In fact, the only gap in her diary Is when jerry dies and she doesn't write it for a week. That's the gap in that whole time Um, there's also over a hundred files of correspondence in the archive So her personal and professional correspondence, which you can't really separate because Joan didn't separate it So but everybody you can possibly think of that was working. She was writing to them. Um But I think probably the diaries are the sort of insight into her personal I think she's writing about her work, but also writes I I really like her. I mean obviously I never met her. Um For me, yes, she's very likable from the archive because I think She's a bit of everything So there is that person that was at the theater that was you know could shout at people and Murray's famous story being made to run round and round the theater to get worn out Um, so that he could arrive on stage out of breath, you know, there's that side And then there's the person that wrote to jerry raffles of every single year after he died on his birthday And described what she was doing and that she was, you know, eating cossum and sitting with some flowers and thinking of him Um, and she's both of those things and I think how can you not like that person? Well, she'd been together that he he joined the company when he was 19 I mean she was with eun But eun went off and had affairs or anything that moved um and and so At 19 in came this I've got photographs of him in those productions. I mean a greek a doneness And he walked into the company and of course he's And They were together on and off for the rest of his life And of course when he died she had realized just what a facilitator he had been to her She did what she refused to let any of us do Was become emotional She went totally over the top emotion And we were she said well, she wouldn't let us do that Well, that's I think why I was asking elinor, you know, whether really about how Likeable Joan little wood was because when I'm listening to her reading her She's such an intellectual that she wouldn't have described herself that way. I'm sure she's also Really by modern parlance director in the sense that she's the person who makes things happen Even if she sees it all as as everybody having an equal say in what is happening But there is very little Emotion it's all from the head in what in what I can see so not not in and I just to think Well, was she very nice because when people tried to be nice and to to actually showcase her genius She wasn't interested. She was contemptuous of their wish to do that And you know you saying she loved European awards, but eschewed her awards in the uk, which is where she wanted to be because english was the finest language She's a really contrarian human being. Oh, she was total Total avis money she used to say she said to me one day And you know, you'd be a bit better actress if you read more So avis went off and and the next production avis dug into all the And they were in rehearsal one day and avis said oh, listen and son says And and jones said where did you get all that stuff from? She said well, I read about it. You shouldn't read so much Totally come So tell me now as we We're you know in the 2020s Is the legacy Of jone littlewood still with us and is it still very importantly? At the theater royal or was it up to the point that you you were archiving the theater royal? Her legacy as the british library know I have not stopped talking about her legacy and why it is all important her legacy philip headley 25 years who took over after after jane No, there were two short ones and then philip um, he did more black and asian theater At strafford than any other theater in england and that's because she had black and asian Actors in her company. She never spoke about it They were actors Their color they were it's got nothing to do with it. They were and and she wanted them to use them So philip carried on that tradition diversity now our Everybody uses the word diversity now was Kerry michael followed philip. Kerry was there for 13 years and He was the diversity He did he did he did um tommy On put tommy on stage that's they rock opera by the hoop by the hoop Who wrote an extra song for him? In the show and and tommy, you know deaf and dumb because he saw his father killed Shot Was played by a deaf and dumb boy who couldn't hear any of the music? um The rsc recently last week announced that you know their new richard the second would be By an actor who is Physically, what is the person with a disability? Thank you I get a clip around the year um, you know So the effect and as ellen said earlier on Here was jone in strafford in this town that was that was so poor Delabidated in this building to create what she did in that Atmosphere in that thing It's just unbelievable. Well, it's just it's also unbelievable that it continued Long after she had gone and presumably still does we can find that out I think i'll be interviewing nadia for to go with this and i look forward to finding that out from nadia Eleanor I remember that also jone littlewood talked about pleasure palaces and she was looking at the Pleasure gardens in voxel and it seems to me that even then she was a precursor of what was to come because of course if you Just look at modern festivals, which are not just about the music but about learning things doing things Different fields different rooms different whatever she was way ahead on that as well. Wasn't she yeah So one of one of jones other projects sort of with the theater but outside of the theater was the fun palace Which she began working on in the 60s and she worked with the architect sedge at price And that was sort of connected to cybernetics And the idea was almost going kind of back to their roots before they had this fixed abode of Bringing theater back out into the streets and like you say that is We're kind of you'll be hearing in the past five years and now things like playable cities and Playable architecture and that kind of thing is kind of becoming buzzwords again and thinking about how people interact with cities And that was exactly what jone was doing in strapford in the 60s and 70s And when they basically were going to bomb sites and clearing them out and turning them into playgrounds for the local children um You know, and I think probably quite relevant to strapford today as well as it's being redeveloped and redeveloped and you know, very different Very different sort of unrecognizable, isn't it? Yeah, the theater is still there Still making its mark. Yes, because strapford is still two halves. Yes that roadway divides the old and the poverty and then you get to the olympic park and the posh flats Yes, and the posh people. Yes, it doesn't matter how much money you throw at newham It's always going to be newham really. Yes, it's it's And that really is what the theater Has historically anyway always serviced is those people who don't have the same access To the arts that perhaps those who live in the city or in the strapford olympic park Absolutely And had they have given jone the o2 When it first started They would be coming all over the world to it now Mervyn if you had to sort of say in one sentence First of all the effect of the actual edifice of strapford royal Stratford dump theater royal on you strapped east theater royal on you and then jone on you What would those sentences be? Well, she'd hate. I mean she would hate me saying But she did change your life If you said it she'd go mad But she did change my life The way I live it Enormous influence, but you see she came back Although they separated got together separated got together When jerry had loved boats And on his boat he blew himself up And had terrible terrible burns And she was in africa And she flew back immediately to that hospital Because they were still in love no matter what happened and she was back He had started plans for something called Oh, what a lovely war about the first world war And he said are you going to stay? And the rest is history or that rest is history I'll do this play and then I'm off But she stayed to be with him And she did oh what a lovely war which was to change theater forever forever And that Eleanor do you want to say a few words about oh what a lovely war because I presume you've got the posters and you've got the programs I mean I saw it at central school a speech and drama in the 1970s a bit later And I think I saw it with Dennis Quilley did I see with Dennis Quilley somewhere? Somewhere in the west end But you see I never saw the original No We've got some fantastic material. I'll know what a lovely war I think 14 boxes we were talking about from Murray's collection, which like you say has Scripts and even things like the original sketches for the costumes the lighting prompts Even I think some of the props So we've got some of the hats and the the doll that was used. Oh, yes, Fanny Carby's Yeah, Fanny's doll Yes, that always makes me laugh. Yes Fanny Carby we used to have Joan loved outdoor scenes So that you came on and there was the sun and there was the flowers growing Sarajevo Outdoor scenes Fanny Carby came on point because she was a Been with Saddleswells With a parameter And she used to go on about Joan Joan, I'm there's nothing in my parameter. I mean She drove everybody mad as Fanny Carby did, bless her And in the end Joan screamed for Christ's sake will somebody get her a dolly for that bloody Premulator And so They made her a little dolly She was perfectly happy He went to France and it came to New York Got back to London and um I went to suffer with Fanny and there on her mantle shelf Was dolly. I said Fanny Carby you've stolen that from old Murray. No, no, don't tell him And it was always there dolly and so I used to go and talk to dolly every time I said, how you doing now? And she was very ill got very ill very quickly And I said to her Fanny I went one day and dolly wasn't there. I mean where's dolly? Oh Murray when it's in the bottom drawer In my bedroom in in my chest of drawers I said oh She said will you remember? I said you're starting of course. Well, I said would you like dolly to come home? She said that would be lovely And so dolly came home when she when she died and I wrote a box, which is still there Fanny Carby's dolly I think one of the people who came to see oh what a lovely wall was Bertrand Russell or indeed on his 90th birthday He came to Stratford. We hadn't we We hadn't been in the west end or we hadn't gone to France But he came on his 90th birthday and he sat in the front row and we were all told of course that he was coming What a great honor now he During the first world war second world war had been at high park every sunday on his that Speakers corner speakers corner Haranguing the populace for allowing this war and the terrible slaughter that was going on and one week The mob Set fire to his stand They they put papers and straw and things and set fire to it didn't stop him However, he came on this 90th birthday and at the end of the show in the applause Jerry got all the young ushers With armfuls of white flowers They burst into the auditorium. They came right to the front and they laid all the white flowers around him They were getting emotional Murray They laid all the white flowers around in recompense for the flames We of course were all in in absolute tears And he we thought he was coming he was planned that he came backstage to meet us all But he didn't he suddenly disappeared. He went home And the next day he wrote a letter to Jerry And Jerry copied it and gave us all a copy Because Jerry did that sort of thing. Did you read it to us? There it is Dear friends I owe you an apology for not having written before I can only put it down to the recent activity concerning Greece and the deaths of lamb rackets And I hope you will understand Your great kindness to me on my birthday was appreciated because it was from people from whom I have so much respect And whose good wishes are truly valued I have enjoyed few things as much as oh what a lovely war Which I found moving and a statement on war such as I have not experienced You were very kind to pay me such a tribute at the conclusion of the play As you know the first war was an event which had a vital place in my thinking and in my life All the people concerned with resistance to war were my intimates The great horror which affected us as the war Interminally dragged on was something none of us have ever fully outlived If there were any way in which I could make people understand how true and important your play is I would wish to do it. I wonder it has been allowed on a London stage After it there was much that I should have wished to have said to you and to the performers I was fortunate enough to meet To speak of ordinary things when I wanted to convey to you that I thought all that had happened to me that evening to be Extraordinary Oh what a lovely war brings war within our grasp Which is immensely difficult May you sweep through the world with this play Pass governments and to as many people as authority permits you To see it Please express my gratitude to all involved In the play with my good wishes and respects sincerely Bertrand Russell Is thank you Elena Well, thank you very much for sharing all of those amazing stories with us and Memories all of which can actually be accessed here at the British Library in the archive Murray Melvin Elena Dickens. Thank you very much indeed for joining us Pleasure. Thank you Well, it's great now to be joined by Nadia fool who is the current artistic director at the theatre world Stratford East Nadia welcome I've just been hearing from Murray the legendary Murray Melvin the history of the theatre itself And of course quite a bit about Joan Littlewood and her legacy Of course, he was part of that Theatre ensemble and he lives and breathes the theatre world Stratford East When you came in as artistic director in 2017, did that feel like a really big Load that you had to consider as you walked through those doors Definitely, it definitely did. I mean it was this weird Thing because theatre I think just is one of the art forms that lives in the present tense You know, it can take you weeks months years to Cook up a play cast it work on the text design it and put it up on its feet But really it lives in our memory We remember a production for whatever reason hopefully because we were moved and You know theatres don't usually have paintings and statues of bygone years. So That's that's one thing about this but with Stratford East it does have this history an undeniable legacy And it definitely feeds into everything I do and how I think about the space and program the space And it's inspiring really, but it was kind of wow. That is a high bar the history, you know As you say the living history through Murray and the first theatre to really put Working class or everyday people's stories up on stage, which was a radical thing in its time, you know There was very little of that that was going on maybe some at the Royal Court But you know and during Philip Headley's years the first to put black work and black stories on stage And then would carry queer work. So so it was really a theatre of the firsts Um, and yeah, that's a lot to live up to but it's also incredibly inspiring Um, yeah, so you use those things You're used to theatres with the word royal in their titles because you come from the Royal National Theatre Where you've been doing quite a lot of directing was it quite a shock to come from the west end Which is rich and has a very sort of specific kind of audience It's diverse, but it's very specifically sort of middle class To Stratford. I mean as you say, you know Newham is still one of the poorest areas in London That must have been quite strange small stage completely different Direction Yes, I mean There there are differences between, you know the south bank in the west end and and the east end for sure And the geographical location the community what we live in as a theatre, but but Actually, I was a freelance director and and my background all through my 20s was really in Participatory work basically taking theatre scriptwriting making films drama in in all sorts of community settings like pupil referral units and schools and prisons and psychiatric wards and and that's where I sort of Really Began as a theatre maker and that's where my roots are So and a lot of that was in east London mainly in Tower Hamlet sometimes in Newham So actually for me the east end and working with people And not doing posh Theatre was who I'm about, you know and what I did and when I did work at the national You know my favourite plays were bringing those stories to the national but as a freelance director I I've barely worked in western theatre. It was all subsidised theatre whether at the national or the bush theatre or whatever it was It was in in theatre that is subsidised by the government and therefore we're able to tell stories Of people and aren't just thinking about the bottom line So for me that that that wasn't completely different But of course we we don't have all the resources that some of the larger theatres have and but we still have a lot of experience and passion and You know, I never want someone to be sitting in the auditorium thinking gosh, they they this is a budget show and they should be, you know Transported as if they were seeing a play in the west end or the south bank or anywhere all in Sloan Square You know, it should the production values the storytelling should Take you to a place and you shouldn't feel that you're seeing anything lesser than And that is what we deserve and that's what our community deserves. So for me It wasn't spiritually. Um, it was completely aligned to to to to who I am Um, as an artist, but I can I know what you're getting at. We don't we're not, you know, we haven't got Millions and millions to spend on on each project, but we make a little go a long long way And I I imagine quite a lot has changed since the days of Joan Littlewood when She could get her ensemble to spend one day a week painting and redecorating the whole building But I know that you did actually do quite a big Uh about not about face. That's the wrong word, but a re rethinking of of the theatre And it looks very different now very modern actually and yet although although it is of of its time So when you saw that space, I mean, it's what Joan Littlewood did when she came in, isn't it? How did you feel it could be even bigger or better? I just actually it wasn't about bigger or better. It was actually going back to what I was very inspired by Joan herself and going back to what she was trying to do and and just sort of align it to to the politics and the stories of our time and and just taking off the pain And exposing the brick and writing strap footies across it. It was very much in her spirit She didn't care what people thought she wanted to make You know a passionate work that she could really be proud of and didn't care about, you know, appeasing Everybody and you know the press or anything like that and I just find that so mischievous and and inspiring And the thing is, you know, the theatre when it and we had the amazing knowledge of Murray Who gave us a lot of beautiful photographs of how the theatre was back in the day Which was very much like the way we've done it Taken off the paint of the front and exposed the brick and then put in quotes of Joan herself In the bar and really taking it back to its original architecture So it was just to give it a fresh sort of You know put her best frock on while we opened a new season and and make it sort of Feel turn heads again and make it relevant to young people So we didn't feel austere or posh or closed that it felt like it was for them in the next generation I want them to be able to walk through the door and not feel like oh, this is an old building or a posh building And it's not for me And it was to break that down in some way by by taking off the paint and making it a bit like I don't know. I was kind of inspired by new york and and st. Anne's warehouse and the way they They've done all of that and we did it on again with our in-house Production team we didn't have loads of money for a big capital project We actually used A sonographer theater designer to to to help us and you know And the production team did things like put doors on the loo doors and make it artistic Because it's an arts place, you know, it's not corporate And so yeah We very much stuck to the spirit and looked at old photographs and had Murray to sort of guide us And it's a listed building and I know I'm sort of biased But I think it's the most beautiful auditorium in London So yeah, it is though. I did complain to you before we started about about the seats in the circle I shall go and test them again one of the quotes that you've got in In the theatre is my from Joan Littlewood. My life was built on the rock of change So I'm sort of going to turn it around ask a slightly pretentious question Which is that now you're sitting on that rock Have you changed anything about the way that you think around theatre or have you honed it Or have you tested it? Yeah, I mean that was my way of saying look Theatre is about change theatre is about the here and now It's not just about deifying the past in the spirit of Joan So I used the quote of Joan to to say I'm going to change things for my tenure And it's the job of every artistic director to bring their Story their passion their stall their artists their people and and and give it their mark for their time And what a time it's been we've had the pandemic you know, we've had huge political change and and uh the young generation everybody are restless And there seems to be a huge gulf between those in power and the politicians and and and the rest of us And it's not good enough. And I think this kind of time of that's made us take stock and and um And really question authority is where the theatre comes in and it's a modern day church You know, we come in and we make an audience. It's a modern congregation and through sitting there whether you're black or asian or White or whether you're um working class or loaded whether you're young whether you're gay or straight It you know, we are in a congregation in the dark together Processing a story and I think that creates an active Physiological thing in our bodies our heart beats sink with the heart beats of the performer on stage that's scientifically proven and we we engage in the act of empathy And understanding each other and yes, I might be different to you, but you remind me of my sister And it's that human connection You know all these fashists tell us that we're different That tribe is better than that trap tribe. This person deserves more than that person Theatre reminds us that we're very similar and brings us together and I think More now more than ever we need that and you know, we You know right We we've been doing that in our storytelling, but we are challenged through the pandemic We are challenged through closures and and cuts in the arts and um But we're we're we're invigorated by the needs to tell a story Quite interesting what you're saying about our political times and uh, you know, there is just so much discord I mean, we're doing this interview at the beginning of 2022 and Really, you know, there are all there are rumblings from, you know, the eastern europe. We've got post brexit. We've got post cavid There's so much happening in june little woods day when she took over the theater world strafford east The the vehicle was agit proper and ensembles and uh, sort of, you know Working together to create a message against authority or challenging authority now that we break up into so many different groups Is it harder to create that sort of theater that is going to kind of constantly That is going to challenge cohesively rather than challenging little bits Um, i'm trying to get to the number of your question and me too. Um Listen the theater infrastructure um calls You know for a lot more, you know, we have to it's right. We have to pay people to make theater And they deserve a wage and they deserve time and patience and and to be taken care of And and so now we can't just go can you paint that ceiling? Can you stay the night on stage and we'll sort it out that we do, you know, have Uh, a duty of care to our staff and our freelancers so so, you know So it theater is very expensive to make And to do properly and there's a lot of pressure on theater now because arts Funding is so cut back To raise money through philanthropy or corporate donations to sell tickets to make a show commercial So so there's that going on but at the same time as an artist you want to tell a story You want to you want to rock the boat you the cage, you know, shake it up in and question authority And and it's very very difficult to do all those things at once under pressure in a pandemic When you don't know where you're open or closed whether you're upside down or roundabout it is a Completely discombobulating time. I won't lie to you But what has happened is that i've noticed That i'm able to do things like adjunct prop theater in in quick fast Ways that bring people together and get allow people to express themselves and their politics in the politics, you know So, you know, we're unapologetically left leaning We say we're revolutionary and we don't feel sick in our mouth when we say that we mean it And so one thing one silver lining if there was one of the pandemic was We had to work a bit more like we do on the fringe when we start out and when uh, the horrible murder of george floyd happened We asked 15 Global majority Black and asian mainly writers to respond to that personally respond to that moment and made and and the theater's doors were shut But we had responsibility And a passion to respond and bring bring our voice to it So we did them as audio plays and then we put them on in a basketball in a court in newham And so there was a way of making quick Adjut prop political theater and now that we're sort of opening up again We're going to continue with that. So we're doing a series called burn it down where six writers Get to write about a case of social injustice or current affairs That they're passionate about and we make the play in a day and because it's made in a day We can have real luxury casting and people Have an appetite I've seen to come in just for a play that's half an hour long and then talk about it And debate the politics in the bar That is working alongside a musical web ringing which is very commercial It still has pathos and politics and it's feminist But it's a musical with pop music with the the writer of girls allowed You know, so we it's about breadth is I think what I'm saying It's about the breadth of offer to make sure you always align the storytelling with the politics of the building And and and so we would never do a play that wasn't about revolutionary ideas or leftist politics and socialist politics That's not who we are And but we can do it in different ways is what I'm saying. Sorry. I don't know whether I answered your question, but I wasn't sure at the beginning, but you certainly got Thank you very much because you also laid out for us the impositions I think of modern theatre making which is that there was a time when you could just throw it all together And it could happen and you could you could be making theatre on the hoof But actually modern times and modern expectations and modern technology actually means that it's all Significantly more costly and more complicated to do that. And yet at the same time What you demonstrated in your response was that theatre Royal Stratford East is very much Part of that Joan Littlewood legacy still it's not a fall now, but there's still that sort of burning desire To be taking on authority and breaking down tropes Definitely, thank you for saying that back at me because I was I wasn't sure where I was going there because there was so much I wanted to say but yeah Absolutely, that's that's our raison d'etre. That's why we're there And that's why we're in the community. We're in we have to be reflective of what concerns that community But yeah, it's not always easy because you know, their people their reviewers theatre reviewers critics Um that can make or break. I don't know whether they can make or break But they they feel like they can make or break a show They feel like they can say this is a load of rubbish and I don't you know, and then people don't book. It's that kind of pressure because I'm not saying Joan didn't have it but Our city is full of a huge choice artistic choice now Um, and that's really exciting. That's what makes London such a great place for theatre even in pandemic times But because there's so much choice You really have to believe in and have quality in what you do and we want to anyway, but it isn't like, you know You can see in any night. They'd be like 30 things you could go and see Well, now that you are allowed back in the theatre After a long time sitting on the sidelines and creating theatre in the street um When you walk up to that fabulous edifice Which now has this wondrous the statue of Joan Littlewood outside one of the rare statues of women in this city in this country And you realize that you are the person who's running this This is your building and your theatre and your productions. How does that feel every morning? well I feel Like a mum. I am a mum I feel like someone who wants the best for the theatre and want it to shine I want it to be a destination that everyone wants to go to and I want the artists that work within it and the staff to feel Like they have agency um And that You know all I want it to be everything, you know, I'm I'm ambitious and for it And it's not that I sit there going moha. Ha. I'm in charge. It's that that's that's a fallacy You know the day-to-day running of any business. It's a charity and an arts organization Isn't about one person. It cannot be it's not physically or psychologically possible It's all about the team the team of people that work in the building And the team of artists and freelancers that we bring into the building because as you know theatre is um as much about people that come in and do a show Build it design it Write it as as it is to people that you know are on the payroll So it's about bringing those people together And in imaginative ways and there's and you know Um, I am up at night worrying about the building and worrying about the next thing in the house Such and such person's going to cope with that and so on but it's not Just mine It's ours And and I'm only here for the time I'm here to do the best I can for the building And you know, uh, and then it'll be someone else's turn And I want to leave it in a really strong place Well, Nadia, well, thank you for joining us and talking us through that and thank you actually For you know enabling the gift giving of this archive, which is so fabulous to the british library Long live theatre Royal Stratford East and its many wonderful directors, especially the women here Thanks Clint Dyer is currently deputy artistic director of the national theatre One of a very small number of people to have also worked there as an actor and a writer His astounding list of credits include starring roles in sus Ma Rainey's black bottom and on television black mirror With Roy Williams, he co-wrote and directed death of england and death of england delroy He directed get up stand up the bob marley musical, which is currently selling out six months in advance Clint first dipped his toe Into the theatre in a theatre workshop production of things aimed what they used to be at the theatre Royal Stratford East It was the start of a continuing alliance and allegiance It was at theatre Royal Stratford East that he directed Roy Williams Kingston 14 and the big life which went on to western success This is Clint So firstly, thank you to Sharma I mean, I first come to theatre Royal Stratford East. So my first play That I did at school And that felt like the proper production So I was in saint bonaventure school Um, that was about 20 minutes from theatre Royal Stratford East And we were doing a play called things ain't what they used to be which is obviously a jam little to play and I was playing Horace and I got quite a strong reaction from um The audience which led to some of the cast members who were doing theatre Royal Stratford East workshops youth workshops On a Saturday morning recommending to me that I should go down there. So That the Saturday after we finished, I think we did three nights something like that and uh, the Saturday after I went down to the workshops and we We Improvised that was the first time I'd really Embraced improvisation and I began to understand what that meant In creating work. So it wasn't just about acting. What was wonderful about The Stratford East workshop and the philosophy behind Stratford East was inherent in it was an element of creating your own work But just the do you weren't just an actor that took somebody else's line and and helped make their world There was a a definite line inside that where actors really contributed to the end result And I found that Highly engaging because it meant I could It meant there was a possibility to politicize and and have a proper Interrogation of the life we are living on the stage And that is what Stratford East kind of meant for me And I think it still has that at its core, but unlike a lot of theatres. It was really trying to represent the people that it was Trying to also engage with Well in terms of the art in terms of theatre. Um, well, you know when I first joined it was very Um White, you know, um, I came from Upton Park and there was a a strong Asian community in the strong West Indian community That weren't being recognized in any of the theatres And Stratford East in its desire to represent its Larger community Um It endeavoured to put our voices on the stage Um, so the the cultural landscape was we were the only people that were actually doing that We were the only we were the only we were the only theatre that was allowing um Black art black And South Asian artists especially to um Have a voice There were black shows so the tricycle will be put on black shows, which were really American shows Um, but none of the other theatres made it Uh part of their Their gesture towards the people that lived in the areas they were serving. Oh, well, they made it It made my career without any shadow of the doubt. I look and right now i'm sitting in the national theatre um I'm a deputy artist director in national theatre Um, I never ever saw this coming I think Philip Headley saw this coming. I think Murray Melvin saw this coming I think many other people saw this coming, but I've won never ever Uh, made this a career trajectory, but as an adult or an older adult now I look back and and I can see that that's what they were planting in me. I mean Stratford, um, philip put me on The board when I was young young early 20 Which was obviously him going, okay. I want you to see what that's like from the other perspective. I want your voice on the board But he kept opening doors for me To be able to have a breadth of understanding Which would which would mean that I was able to to take to even think about taking the job back Well, what Stratford East means to me is a place where where artists have the chance to Not only start their career, but be nurtured It's a place that took risks on artists that weren't What then the the commercial element of the business would think was a natural A natural Light, you know, I think that we That In the look in honestly the landscape has changed dramatically right now It's completely different. Um, you know in 2022 and post George Floyd and you know There's a there's a lot of deeper thinking and analysis that's going into Who we serve why we serve them? um And Stratford East was a forerunner In in that we certainly wouldn't be here now We certainly wouldn't have examples where we can put put structures in place to be able to follow what Stratford East was doing Uh, because that's all everyone's doing right now You know, so so the the amount of you know, there's quite a few artists that have now been elevated into positions of influence That all started from Stratford East and just wouldn't have a basis or a proper understanding of how to take on those roles if it wasn't for Stratford East um So so that's a long-winded answer to a very simple question So in short, how would you answer that and I say in long terms how I'd answer that sorry A highlight of me at Stratford East would be unquestionably the opening night of the big life Now it's a weird one because working for Mike Lee at that specific time in my career You could argue was a was a um was a bigger deal um And and and it probably you could yeah, it was a massive massive thing for me as a young actor Um, so by the time I got the big life. It was all a bit unknown I was a bit unknown in in directing So I didn't have as much to lose in a professional sense because it was a debut and when I did um It's a great big shame I had been acting quite a bit and there was an expectation and I was playing on the home ground and all that sort of stuff So there was so it was nerve-wracking but the highlight still is the opening night of the big life because What Philip said to me was he wanted me to make something that my parents would love And so what that suddenly meant for me was Of course, it would I would always be making something that my generation would love And younger generations would love so once he added in my parents generation It meant oh god, this has got to be something that the whole of my community love And it was something about working for Mike Lee that was uh, was very actively was the business was kind of you know This is about my career something something very, um Centralizing about how how I would view that But this I had responsibility And Philip had given me responsibility to make my community happy And that's difficult It's difficult because there's so many different strands of of expectation inside that Because while you want to test an audience you also want your um to entertain your audience um And you also want them to feel good about themselves And in one one play or one musical that's a lot to ask to feel good about yourself And test yourself as well as entertain That's hard and in the opening night it ran for too long Um, I did have to do a lot a lot of cuts But It was so epic It was so um itself And the reaction was so um heartfelt That people needed it I really realized the power of of theater because not only did people appreciate show and all those three factors seem to be Being embraced and held and and and seem to be the truth It helped as though um Something inside them had been answered You know something something that was missing and and that was the point of theater that time for for for me and for I think a lot of black practitioners We realized there were so few pieces of of um of black work That it was essential to our being to to see our stories and there were so few that when they hit the nail It just meant so much People were crying out and laughing at the same time because they needed it And that was undoubtedly will always be one of my biggest moments in my whole career because you just you can't get that now Because it's regularly there, you know regularly, you know, there's there's a there's a lot of work out there And it just wasn't So there that's yeah I think I think um Well, what I've been doing Whilst whilst theater has always been trying to do this. I think what with the way that tv is opened up our thinking and um Because tv used to be much safer. So you get the truth on the stage You could really really, you know, it was an artist's voice and then the tv would be commercial have an element of commerciality so you couldn't really Clearly be Written by someone it's meant to Clearly be the characters and the storyline theater means this is this is the writer's voice coming over. So you go to see the writer's voice What I think is really happening now and is um And I'm hoping that I'm doing my work and it's part of the reason why We wrote deaf of england the way we wrote it is because we're really getting under the skin of characters and we're starting to um Interrogate an interior dialogue That in a way and it's funny enough in the way that somebody like shakespeare was doing So we're really trying to psychologically Understand the motives of people. So it isn't just about the story that leads them somewhere. It's the why Yeah, in short, I think the why is becoming much more desired There's a deeper intellectual Just deeper intellectually stimulating Dialogue um from the uh play That's where I think we'll end up going Many thanks to everybody we've heard from this evening British libraries ellen ag dickens Murray malvin Nadia full clint diet and our chair shyma perera And many thanks to all of you who have been watching from home This event has been part of our theater series of events and if you enjoyed it as much as I certainly did Please do keep an eye out for our many other events on the what's on pages at bl.uk If you wish to view any of our previous events, you can find a vast array of subjects on our bl player And finally, please do keep up to date with everything that's going on at theater royal stratford east at theater royal stratford east.com Many thanks again and good night