 Welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean. CodePink's weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Common Frontiers, the Council on Hemispheric Affairs, Friends of Latin America, Massachusetts Peace Action and Task Force on the Americas. We broadcast every Wednesday on CodePink YouTube live. You can also find us now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, our own Telegram channel. And we're also very pleased to let you know that Lee Kamp of Red Indy Media is posting our episodes on his website, redindymedia.com. So you've got a lot of options to catch our episodes and even listen to them a second or third time if you like. So today's episode is Argentina, BRICS, CELAC and the OAS. And I'm very, very excited to have all of you meet my guest, Bronco Metaza, who is the Director General for Foreign Affairs of the Argentina National Senate. And we've tried for a while to get him on the program, and we're so excited to have you meet him. And we're going to talk this evening with Bronco about this week's news headlines from Argentina, about Argentina possibly joining BRICS. We'll talk a little bit about some general regional themes that Argentina is playing a very large role in, multi-polarity, inclusiveness and all of that being combined today as we're seeing unfold in the region through CELAC and the Organization of American States. So let me tell you, I want to give all of you just a brief definition of BRICS. I think most of the audience knows what BRICS is, but so here, but just in case you don't or need a refresher. Here we go. The term BRIC was coined by Goldman Sachs, I know, oh my God, economist Jim O'Neill in 2001 to describe the rise of Brazil, Russia, India and China, BRIC. The BRIC powers had their first summit in 2009, which was following the economic crash of September 2008 in the States. So that was 2009 in Russia, South Africa, the S and BRICS joined in 2010. BRICS accounts for more than 40% of the world's population and about 26% of the global economy. So that's my reference and Franco correct me if I'm wrong. China is currently Argentina's main trading partner outside of South America, and India is Argentina's fourth largest trading partner and the fourth largest destination of Argentina's export. So there's already a relationship with founding members of BRICS. So everyone I want you to meet my friend Franco. He's talking to us live this evening from Buenos Aires, Argentina. Welcome Franco Franco. Let me get my Spanish right. So welcome I'm so pleased to have you join us tonight. And so let's talk a little bit about about what's happening with BRICS this was a big, you know, a big news item here in Mexico and in North America. And what, what's the plan, or is, or is this just a news story. Well, hello, Terry. I'm very pleased to be here. I wanted to be here as time you invited me but this is like the perfect time so how do we hear about BRICS. Well, you know, actually, it wasn't news for us in 2014, 2015. We have this kind of idea of trying to to join BRICS. But it didn't happen. And it was like a project or idea that was in the time it was like disappearing. I remember that at the first beginning, it wasn't BRICS. It was BRICS with DS, the finalist of South Africa. And when South Africa entered BRICS and it became BRICS, immediately this idea of Argentina joining began and the letters would be BRICS with the NLA. Yeah, but then it didn't happen because Brazil was strong enough to to represent the region. And now it's with with our protempore presidency of SELAC, it's an idea that came up again. But I'm not quite sure of how is this going to to to to work out. Because the care of BRICS says that that it's an and a thing that that that still needs to discussed and I don't think we have the consensus, but it's an interesting idea because the world is like It's becoming in different blocks, strong blocks. This week we had She7 summit today and tomorrow with NATO summit. We had this summit of America with the one we are going to talk a little bit later. So in this configuration of this new war, this post pandemic war, this warfare war, I think BRICS will have a very interesting position to play a geopolitical role, a key geopolitical role. It's a nice alternative, a very, I shouldn't say nice, it's a very viable alternative to growing a trade organization and economic organization that's more representative of the global south and is represents a multi polar multi lateral perspective versus a unilateral paradigm of the United States, it's actually very exciting. And so, so there's two things that you mentioned and with Brazil and BRICS is it within, you know, the coalition itself. Is it not or I shouldn't. How should I say this, is it is the coalition focused on having a major economic part partner from each continent and so perhaps Argentina joining in South America is in in competition or in conflict with Brazil already being part of the coalition or is that not an issue at all. That was a reading I had at that time that it was Latin America to be overrepresented in BRICS with two major countries of this part of the world. That was the ring I had at that time. What happens nowadays? Brazil with Bolsonaro has become like a part from from the whole Latin America. Brazil used to be like the main machine of Latin America or at least the south of Latin America. But now with with this Bolsonaro, who is a very polemic and controversial political actor, Brazil has not the same soft power in Latin America and Argentina does. Argentina is leading the boss for issues that are very interesting, interesting for the world nowadays, such as climate change, such as migration. We are very open to receive migrations and we have two issues, two things, two elements that are going to be extremely necessary in the following 30, 40 years, which is a sadly consequence of the war and those are food and energy. And we already have a production of food, which is very interesting to the world that is coming and regarding energy, we have some issues to solve nowadays, but we have the opportunity to become a source of energy, of green energy. Green energy. Okay, green energy being solar, wind, what? Solar and wind. In the very north of our country, we have very high temperatures, which are very good to produce solar energy. We also litium, we are a big reservation of litium. And in the south of our country, in, in, in Patagonia, in Argentina, Patagonia, we have winds, very high winds. I used to live there when I was a child and it was very hard to go to school and stuff. But that's very important for, to produce the green hydrogen. Wow, I didn't realize that. That's really exciting. And the lithium too, which, which we know, you know, that's causing some problems with Europe and the United States wanting control of that. And in Bolivia and other countries, and I think, you know, they're going to have, have the lithium fields here in Mexico run by the, by the state, which is, which is pretty exciting. So, so this green energy, this is a whole, this is really exciting. Let me make a parenthesis. We call it the triangle of lithium, which is Bolivia, Chile, and the north of Argentina. Now with Boris, Chile, and with the democracy again in Bolivia, luckily, we have a great, great political opportunity to produce indeed a three-party state, the lithium, and we can, like, have a strong role, because we have three states because what happens to us? What happens in Latin America in general? We have big corporations, big corporations who have the technology and the possibility to finance the projects, to get out the lithium. And Boris negotiates with us, like, okay, you need us, you need us. And we are always weak negotiating, but now that we are three states in the same political position, it's very interesting for us, the thing that are in the lithium triangle. Wow, that puts a whole, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. That puts a whole another dimension, because I know some people in our audience going to say, well, lithium, that's going to be an extraction based, you know, industry. Yes, but one of the things that has changed in throughout Latin America, so the global south as a whole, but particularly in Latin America since early 2000s is taking control of the natural resources, not letting, as you say, the transnational corporations come in and control the technology and control the resources and they leave, basically it's a neocolonial situation where they leave, leave nothing to the benefit of the people in the country that you're extracting from. But what I'm hearing you say, and this has been a different orientation, a new or revised orientation with natural resources for the last 20 plus years, but to keep the benefits of the profitability of the resources at home. And so what I'm hearing you say is with this triangle of lithium with Bolivia, Chile and Argentina, you have similar governments, similar politics, and you have the lithium and now you are in a position to, basically negotiate for what, what you countries as the owners of the lithium want me that is really exciting. I hadn't heard that before. That's very exciting I mean doesn't get off the extraction industry which a lot of, you know, people around the world would like to see, but it is. Wow, that's a very. That's really powerful and puts a whole new perspective on who gets to control what's in what's in on an under your country. That's very good. That's a real break with this whole neocolonial models. Yeah. Wow. So let's, let's talk a little bit about this break, you know, with unit with us unilateralism us neocolonialism, you know liberal capitalism there, you mentioned earlier about about South America now being in a post pandemic paradigm. I would say the whole hemisphere of the Americas. Now, and this was one of the things, one of the themes that really came out in the select summit in September of 2021 September 18 here in Mexico City was one of the things that prompted or encouraged the president of Mexico to reconvene Salar after a four year pause was this, what I perceive, I did watch the whole five hours of the summit by the way, in Spanish. One of the things that really can you laugh over you would be proud of me. And I took copious notes and one of the things that was really fascinating first of all, I'm sure you know that here in Mexico people were just thrilled that their president was reconvening Salar and thrilled with the extraordinary the majority attendance of nations. One of the other things that was consistently mentioned by various state representatives was that Latin America is in a post pandemic world reality. And I perceive that as a humanitarian unifying concept was that, yes, in Latin America and the Caribbean countries have unified over politics over economics over various cultural things on and off. I mean we, you know we saw a pink tide which, you know diluted and now, you know in some manner is returning. But there is now because of the COVID pandemic, what I perceive to be a humanitarian unity as well, because there was little to none support given to Latin America from the global north my country specifically. And, and that became really clear that it's needed for Latin America and the Caribbean to really unite on a level and for reasons never, or at least to me, have never really been so overt. But there is almost like this humanitarian unity now that is allowing for more broader economic understanding and unity and and not really pushing for political change before all of this happens. I kind of was very verbose there I apologize. I see Argentina yes I guess for the audience should know that the presidency of select past from Mexico to Argentina and so President Fernandez of Argentina is now leading slot. It really does seem to have a focus, a humanitarian unity that's never been there before or never so never been there so overtly before. I totally agree this humanism is is key for for politics, we are not used to talk about humanism in politics we should do it, I guess, politics is always hard power exchange negotiations. And we need to talk more about humanism I think that the most illustrative sign of this is what happened with vaccines. I remember that in 2021 at the very beginning or May, June, we saw how some vaccines were expiring, and they were threw away in not only in the United States also in Canada, also in UK. And there were a lot of countries, mostly from Africa, but also from Central America mostly that only had two, three percent of the population vaccinated. And there were vaccines that were going through were throwing away because they were spying. And in that moment, our country was began to donate vaccines to Central America. We have donated about three or four millions of vaccines to Central American countries, Vietnam, and some African countries, mostly Central American countries. And that's key for us, and we don't do it because, well, we are good people, we do this. It's because one has to be intelligent if everybody is not vaccinated, this pandemic will come once again until everybody's vaccinated. So it's not useful for us to be, we are four or five million, it's not useful for us to be alright. Our 45 million of Argentinians are all vaccinated, but our neighbors know and they come, we go there. So it was like key for us to do that. What's interesting about SELAC? SELAC is almost the same as the OAS, the Organization of American States, but without United States and Canada. Canada has not participated a lot. So it's a nice framework for us because we can talk between us in Latin America and Caribe, without having, without the necessity of going to OAS. And what is the thing with OAS? It's because I don't like OAS. No, that is that the Organization of American States with Luis Almagro as president has been responsible for the coup in Bolivia. And that is unforgivable for us. Democracy is about everything, or at least that is what always United States says to other countries. Well, Luis Almagro through the Organization of American States in Bolivia were responsible for the coup that wanted to kill Evo Morales. They wanted to Evo Morales and they tortured hundreds of civilians. So that is, I think we lost you. Speak between our first in America. So it's, so SELAC is all, it is everyone in the hemisphere with the exception of the United States and Canada. The United States and Canada were not even invited to be part of SELAC, correct? And so it, unlike the Organization of American States, is inclusive. And it operates because the U.S. and Canada are not there and it's principally because of the United States. Like you said, it can, it can operate independently of U.S. interventionism and all of its forms, even just, you know, verbal narrative. And I'm really pleased you brought up, you know, the situation in Bolivia with Luis Almagro, who is the Secretary General of the Organization of American States and how that was just, yeah, an overt, an overt attempt to use the institution to over, overthrow, you know, a government, the president of Bolivia. And I just mentioned to the audience, there's a great report that the Center for Economic Policy and Research, CEPR.net has done a fantastic study on the OAS intervention in the, an involvement in the 2019 who in Bolivia. So, while we're talking about inclusivity and non-interventionism. We've talked about the Organization of American States and Joe Biden's summit of the Americas that took place earlier this month in Los Angeles, which was not attended by a number of presidents because it became a very exclusive event. Because Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela were not invited. And so much of the hemisphere and here again we're thinking more on a humanitarian, more humanistic level than actual politics. And so much of the hemisphere was upset that those three countries were overtly left off the invitation list, despite whatever political differences countries have among, you know, between each other. So it was not an inclusive summit of the Americas. And, and your president did attend. I know initially he thought he might not attend, but he did attend and he, you know, shared some very good comments right in front of those people that attended specifically the President of the United States and we can talk a little bit about how President Fernandez represented Argentina and the hemisphere at the, at the summit of the Americas earlier this month. Well, he attended because it was important for the region that the voice of President Fernandez was there because he's the president of Argentina, but also because he's the president of Salat. He has the pro-temporal presidency of Salat. So it was important to raise that voice there. And the things he took there was that the Americas had the countries that America have. We cannot exclude one for some things and not for things. I'm going to give you an example, Terry. United States has no relation with Venezuela, right? The sanctions and stuff. But nowadays, after the war with Russia, with Ukraine, and nowadays that oil is needed and the price is going high, United States begins to buy again Venezuela oil. So we have a double standard here. It's all right. I don't work with you in these issues, in political issues, but I do work with you making commerce. I mean, that's a double standard. That's not reasonable. And I have a thing with Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua. It's very unfair for them to always put them in the same bag. They are not the same. They are different countries, and it begins to come xenophobic to always talk about Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua as a bad thing. It begins to become xenophobic. And they are different countries with different history, with different governments, different system, different people. So we have to stop putting them in the same bag. I mean, I cannot agree with Nicaragua, for example. I personally think that there are a lot of problems there. That's what I think. But I need to talk to them. I need to be at the same table. We need to put light on there because if we hide that, we put them out. We don't know what's happening there. We need to talk. We need to be at the same table. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, and that's, you know, that again comes down to the humanism and this how can you develop a region without having, you know, everyone at the table. It isn't so much my senses, particularly being here in Mexico City at this moment, is that the strengthening of Salah, the reconvening of it after a four-year pause by Amla here in Mexico, really, it came at the right moment. It's very strong. I, and sometimes we hear that, and in fact, some, some of the attendees at the Salah Summit in September 2021 outright called for Salah to replace the OAS. But my sense is that the region as a whole doesn't, the first option would not be to replace the OAS. The first option would be allow every country in the hemisphere to participate with equal as equals. It would replace everyone, every country in the hemisphere as an equal, which would include Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and as you say, don't throw them all into the same bag. How are we going to, how can you understand each other, help each other learn, trade. If we're not all at the same table, communicating with one another and building, you know, an inclusive hemisphere. I know one of the, one, I want to pull up your, I want to pull up the bio you sent me because I want to talk about Mirko, Mirko Sur as part of this as an economic unifying institution before I let you go because I know we're running out of time. You did your, where are you? Hold on just a moment. Okay, so your degree, okay, so you have a, okay, the audience is going to be very impressed with you. Okay, so Franco has a degree in government and international relations and he did his thesis on the Mirko Sur parliament. So let's talk a little bit about Mirko Sur because you like, you know, you're, you really study this, and it is a unifying, it is a unifying tool. Yes, well, Mirko Sur for the audience to know is integrated by Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, and Paraguay. Those are the four original members. And then we integrated Venezuela. Nowadays, Venezuela is not participating entirely because there's a democratic clause that was, that says that if elections are not recognized for the whole international community, they cannot participate entirely. But what's the thing? Mirko Sur was created in 1991. We were in this South, this very South of Latin America, we were in the middle of the neoliberalism cycle from the 90s. The consensus of Washington was ruling those days in economic matters. Luckily, afterwards, with a Kishner president and President Cristina Fernández Kishner in Argentina, Lula in Brazil, Pepe Mujica in Uruguay and Fernando Luen Paraguay, they wanted to, to elevate the level of discussion within Mirko Sur and the integration. There were no more only economic, it was political and social integration. So, Mirko Sur had its best years during those presidencies. And it became a better block, a very integrated block. And then, at that time, the parliament of Mirko Sur arrived because it was necessary to discuss between parliament, between parliamentarians, the integration, the regional integration. Wow, okay. Wow. So, yeah, integration. You know, that's the integration and it's a, and a more humane and multi-polar approach. And it does push, and it is. I mean, I would, a lot of us in the, in the, in North America would like to say it's a pushback against the United States, but I feel it's more of wanting as with, you know, hoping with an evolution in the OAS perhaps, having an integration and having everyone, all countries participating, not necessarily pushing the U.S. out, although that may be what has to happen in order for the, you know, to give the United States a reality check. But that's not what I sent from the majority of people in Latin America and the Caribbean. The goal is to include everyone. I think, you know, and you're dealing with, you know, some really tough policy in Washington, D.C., for like 200 plus years. I see. You know what, Terry? Yes. No, I want to finish with a concept that you brought to this talk, which is equality. What happens to us, and I guess it happens to all the countries in Latin America. We want to have relationships with United States. Of course we want to. You can not in this world without having a relation with the United States, but we want these relations to be from equal to equal. We are both countries. We are both sovereign countries. Our people are important for us, and we need to defend our interests. That's what happens to us. Equality. Equality. National sovereignty. National sovereignty. National resource sovereignty too, I would add, with this lithium prime. Natural resource sovereignty too. So, okay, Franco, I know I promised you 30 to 35 minutes and I'm so, I'm so thankful for your time this evening. I'm so happy that we got to work together today. We've tried for a couple of years to do this and I'm just so pleased. I'm so pleased. So, I should come to Argentina. You should come to Argentina. I would love to. Let's talk about that. We could do a few live episodes from there. That would be wonderful. Let's talk about that. Totally like that. So, okay, so let me just remind the audience you've been watching what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean code pins weekly YouTube program of hot news out of the region. We broadcast every Wednesday 730pm Eastern for 30pm Pacific this evening we broadcast 30 minutes early at the request of our guest. Also be sure to catch code pink radio which broadcasts every Thursday morning 11am Eastern on WBAI New York City, WPFW out of Washington DC. Both projects can be found on Apple podcast and Spotify or wherever you find your podcast so. So thank you everyone. And, and thank you to our very special guest, and we'll see all of you next week.