 Hello, good morning everyone. Today's Thursday. Thank you for joining us for our leadership panel on promoting access and inclusion for learners of all backgrounds at UBC. We're happy to have you join us. And I would like to show this image we have up on the screen of three students standing on a stairwell looking at each other with today's session title. We will start in about a few minutes as we get more participants coming in from the waiting room. Thank you for your patience. Good morning everyone. Welcome to the Celebrate Learning Week panel promoting access and inclusion for learners of all backgrounds at UBC with UBC Vancouver and UBC Okanagan leaders. Accessible and inclusive teaching practices and program design are essential to removing barriers to education for students of all backgrounds, including those with disabilities. And this panel will explore from a strategic level how inclusive teaching is being supported across both campuses. My name is Christina Hendricks. I'm a white woman with medium length brown hair and glasses sitting in an office. I'm the academic director of the Center for Teaching, Learning and Technology at UBC Vancouver. And I'm also a professor of teaching in the Department of Philosophy. And I'd like to begin today with a land acknowledgement by acknowledging that I'm joining you from UBC Vancouver, which is located on the traditional and ancestral and unseated territory of the Musqueam people. Some of you are joining from UBC Okanagan, which is on the territory of the Silks Okanagan people. And others may be joining from various other places in the country or possibly around the world. Now in previous years before COVID-19, we did have Celebrate Learning Week in person and brought people together in a physical space to share ideas, thoughts, questions and learning. And it may have been easier to think about the land on which we are gathered when we are in a physical space. But it's certainly no less important to consider and reflect on when we're joining from multiple places with our own contexts and histories. So we're not meeting in the ether online as it were. We're each of us rooted and physically located in a place with those joining from BC, most likely doing so from unseated Indigenous territory and those joining from elsewhere also quite often on Indigenous territory. For those of us who are guests on these lands, how can we act as good guests and contribute to decolonization and reconciliation? So one way to start is to learn more about the Indigenous peoples and lands on which we live, work and play. And many Indigenous nations have websites where folks can learn more about the nation and the lands, the history and the community's current activities. For example, if you are located working at UBC Vancouver, the Musqueam Nation has a website that we will put into the chat, which has educational resources that are really helpful for non-community members to learn more about the people, their culture, their language, their history and their community. And the Silks Okanagan Nation website also put into the chat has information about their language, culture and territory as well. And for those of us who work at UBC, we can also learn more through looking at the memorandum of affiliation that UBC Vancouver has with the Musqueam Nation and the memorandum of understanding that UBC Okanagan has with the Silks Okanagan Nation. And these are important to pay attention to because they guide UBC's relationships with these communities on whose lands our campuses are situated. Now as we learned today about accessibility and inclusion in the institution, let's also keep in mind that the institutional structures and practices we are including people into have been built upon colonial practices and values. And that UBC has made strong commitments to working towards reconciliation and decolonization through these memoranda of understanding and affiliation, through the Indigenous Strategic Plan, working in partnership with local communities. They've made commitments to uphold Indigenous human rights and to take action in accordance with the Canadian Truth and Reconciliation Commission's calls to action. And it's all of our responsibilities at UBC to learn and act in accordance with these commitments. And if you have not done so already, the UBC Indigenous Strategic Plan is a great place to start and to think about the framework that all of us could locate our work into at UBC. I encourage you to read and engage with the toolkits that are on the Indigenous Strategic Plan website that can help each one of us as individuals locate how we can contribute to decolonization and reconciliation. Now Celebrate Learning Week is an opportunity to recognize all the hard work, talent and teaching and learning commitments and achievements at UBC. Throughout this week, UBC Vancouver and UBC Okanagan are working together to host a series of in-person and online events. The theme of this year's Celebrate Learning Week is promoting inclusivity and accessibility, and there's over 35 parts, excuse me, there's over 35 events in Celebrate Learning Week. And they highlight accessibility for people with disabilities along with inclusive learning, living and working environments for students, faculty and staff. So for a full list of events taking place this week, you can visit the Celebrate Learning website. So housekeeping, we have a few housekeeping items before we get started with our panel today. So first we invite you to participate in the session, however, makes sense to you. You can keep your camera on or off. You can sit down, stand up, walk around, have a pet, whatever works best for you. Please keep, however, your microphone muted when you're not speaking. And do note, as we mentioned at the beginning, this session is being recorded and it will be shared afterwards as a resource on the Celebrate Learning Week Wiki page. If you don't wish to be recorded, you can keep your camera and microphone off. And the comments, just so you know, the comments and questions in the chat will not be recorded. So we will have a time at the end for question and answers from the participants. So please hold your questions until the end of the session. There'll be a Q&A period where you can either post your questions in the chat in Zoom or raise your virtual hand to speak. And just to let you know, we have a couple of Q&A moderators for this session who are identified with a Q&A in their Zoom display name if you want to connect with them. But you can also just post your questions directly in the chat. If you're having any technical difficulties, our CTLT event staff are ready and here to provide you with support. So you can contact Suki Guaman via the chat. Finally, there's automated closed captioning available and you can enable this feature by clicking on the CC at the bottom of your Zoom screen. We'd like to introduce a community agreement so if we could pull that slide up. Thank you. So to ensure open, inclusive, and respectful dialogue and participation, we would like to have a community agreement that we would all pay attention to and abide by. Because using these sorts of practices, we can share and learn together and challenge ourselves and each other while still recognizing that we're coming from different places of knowing and transforming. So on the slide, there are five words, the count, yes, five words, with each one of them I'll explain briefly. So first, we would like to, the first word is learning. We would like to acknowledge that we're all here to learn with and from each other. Second one is emotions. We'd like to acknowledge that discussions regarding diversity, inclusion and discrimination can sometimes bring with them very strong emotions. And these can be felt by different people for very different reasons. For those who have lived experience of discrimination, harassment and abuse, we recognize the labor of those who may choose to share that with us, and we receive that with care. We do not have that lived experience. We invite you and myself as well to lean into our discomfort if this is bringing up difficult emotions and use it to guide our growth. The third word is recognition. We invite you to recognize and work with the emotions that come up in order to support our own learning and the learning of others. The impact, we ask that we all listen to each other's perspectives, and that we be accountable for the impact of our words, even if this is different from the intent of our words. And finally, responsibility. We recognize that we're all responsible for an equitable, generative and respectful dialogue. And facilitators in this session, including myself as hosts and our moderators are working to support this goal. Thank you for joining us and helping to set the pace for generative and respectful dialogue as you engage with the session today. And I would now like to introduce our panelists for this session. So as we're getting those folks up on the screen, I would like to say that unfortunately we had a couple of panelists who were not able to join us so if you saw the list of folks early on. I'm in Bates associate provost teaching and learning at UBC Vancouver, and Margaret Moss interim associate vice president of equity and inclusion at UBC Vancouver are not able to join us today. But we have a wonderful set of panelists here. So I'm going to introduce them and then we have a couple of questions that we've prepared in advance to ask the panelists, and then after that there will be a time for open question and answer period. So first off is Janet me who's interim managing director of student affairs at UBC Vancouver. Shirley Nakata ombuds person for students office of the ombuds first and first students at UBC Vancouver. Kurtz manager disability resource center at UBC Okanagan. Janita Paul virgin director the Center for equitable systems design and extended learning at UBC Vancouver. Brad whether it associate provost academic programs teaching and learning at UBC Okanagan. And my yes way interim director education partnerships and engagement equity inclusion office at UBC Vancouver. Welcome to you all and thank you so much for joining us today. So as I mentioned we have two discussion prompts, and then later we'll be opening it up to questions from the participants. So I'd like to ask the panelists to please start their first response to the discussion prompt with a little bit more about themselves or or their work at UBC. The next question is what do inclusive and accessible practices look like in your context or role, and how do you promote inclusion and access in your role or unit. So I'm going to start with Janet me and early Roberts who have similar roles at both campuses. So please go ahead. Thank you for your introduction and then you can jump in and then we'll take off. So I'm Janet me I'm the interim managing director of student affairs and the vice president students portfolio as Christina mentioned. My, during my time at UBC I've spent most of my time as the director of what is now known as the Center for accessibility, and have been working in the field of post secondary education and disability for gosh almost 32 years. Most of which has been at at UBC actually in what was originally the disability resource center. Just a little bit I mean personally. I come to this work as an educator so I was originally planning to be an elementary teacher, and have worked both with children, youth, and adults with primarily learning disabilities but other forms of disability from for most of my education career, and then moved into post secondary education and disability. And I'll turn it over to early and to introduce yourself. Hello everybody. I'm early Roberts and I'm on the open up in campus located in the territory of the open up association. I've been at UBC for a while, like for quite a while in different capacities as a student way back and when we were oh you see I did my undergrad here. And then I've got a couple of other degrees from me we see over the years. I've been working at the DRC, the disability resource center UBC over now against 2010 and seeing the center grow significantly over those years, more like five times bigger than we were when I started my background is in social work. So, I have worked my entire career in some form of disability services supports set for a number of years with the BC government working for Community Living BC as well. So that's most of my working career has been in this field. We're just doing introductions at this point right so. Okay, so I'll pass it back to you to start answering that we're starting with a question so back to you want to start. Sure, I think I think both are lean and I thought it would be helpful to maybe just start with the grounding to recognize that, you know, the foundations of UBC both educationally, structurally, in terms of policy, and in terms of the built environment are all built on a foundation of ableism, and that that has a significant impact on the way we think about our work. And the way that we that we know that others come at the topics of inclusion and access for people with disabilities, particularly. We also thought it might be helpful to acknowledge that there are legislation and policies and and and commitments that are made both at the institutional level at the provincial level and even at the federal level that have a, having forces for for some of our work and quite frankly, I think for us, provide the tool would be the gracious way I might put it to really push the boundary sometimes when we're talking about creating inclusive and accessible environments. One piece of legislation I think is particularly relevant is the BC human rights code. So that code, unlike the legislation that Erlene is going to talk about is really an aspirational vision or statement. So it simply suggests or aspires to create an bump to my keyboard. The legislation is really meant to aspire to an environment where, in this case people with disabilities can participate in all the society has to offer with dignity and independence. And it does so by really setting that standard, and then applying a test over time through cases that come forward to the BC human rights tribunal. And so we work with those cases to understand what the societal expectations are and how you BC must adjust and adapt and work to meet those expectations as they evolve. So the legislation has some benefits in that the bar isn't either is not a minimum standard the bar is ever shifting. And as societal expectations become greater, the expectations that come through the case law continue to expand. So it does have some disadvantages in that it doesn't set a minimum standard so it's not always clear for folks when they have done enough in order to meet the expectations of the legislation. And that can create some challenges I think for us in our work. There's a new piece of legislation coming to BC and Erlene's going to talk a little bit about that just to also kind of set the scene. So we have the Accessible British Columbia Act, which was enacted last year in June 2021. And in the first year of the province has created their accessibility committee for the for the government and province and the recently have passed the expectation that public agencies in BC will also create accessibility committees, and that includes post secondary institutions, and those committees are to be set up by September 1. And so the the the composition of the committee is mandated and the work of the committee in the first over the first 10 years actually are is also mandated by this legislation so UBC will be tasked with setting up this accessibility committee. So usually we're going to need to start working on that pretty quickly. And the standards that will be implemented over the 10 year period, the university or sorry the government will be developing the standards there's 10 standards to a year starting next year. So our task as a university in the first year of our for that accessibility committee will be to develop an accessibility plan for a university that encompasses all of the standards that are going to be developed so we need to look at information systems we need to look at spaces we need to work at everything that basically that we do. And so that legislation will also in some ways direct the work that we do as a university and a whole, but also what we do at the center for accessibility and the disability resource center. Jumping to say I mean I think from our perspective the legislation and also the commitments through the the campus plans on both on both campuses and the policies that we have in place both through the equity and inclusion office and through the center for accessibility and the disability resource center really call for us to work on on at least two levels probably more. One would be at the individual level so certainly on the Vancouver campus for example we provide accommodations or we facilitate accommodations for approximately 4000 students with disabilities who've identified themselves to the center and are requesting some form of accommodation to participate in any facet of university life so so the policy that that governs our work requires that we look at accommodations not just for the academic environment but for co op or for an internship or for a student leadership opportunity or for a recreational activity so we really at UBC are focused on ensuring that students are integrated and have the opportunity to participate in everything that UBC has to offer. We also work at a systemic level so we have some resources to look at various systemic barriers that people might face and to think about more universal responses and more inclusive responses to those kinds of issues that come up. One certainly in the teaching realm and teaching and learning realm is the built environment so looking at new standards for classroom and learning spaces, looking at practices around the design of both the teaching facility to ensure that that instructors with disabilities are able to participate fully but also looking at at how teaching practices are changing and what that means for the for the built environment. So we're building on both campuses I think fewer and fewer large fixed seating lecture halls and more and more spaces that have movable furniture and are able to adapt in order to accommodate the more interactive and participatory kinds of learning environments, and that has some implications for changes to the way we design our classrooms and classroom services and the Center for Accessibility and the Disability Resource Center work really closely to create new standards and and look at those pieces. The second which I think maybe I would just highlight would be, we know from literature and research that sense of belonging has a huge impact on academic success and on learning and how students interact with their peers and interact with their instructors. And so we have a project that we're just looking at right now that will explore the various facets that that lead to a strong sense of belonging, and then make recommendations to changes to the way we operate both as a learning institution and as, for example, a student affairs unit, so that we are behaving and acting and designing our programs in a way that will promote sense of belonging for students with disabilities and faculty and staff actually. So I'm, yeah, just to go back to answering the first question. I think we're approaching it from a very broad way but I think just to be a little bit more specific about Okanagan because Okanagan and Vancouver campuses and CFA DRC we operate similarly but we do have some differences. We have about 1,000 students that that we supported this year that accessed our services, and we have some slightly different programming that we that we support on our campus so we have, we offer ADHD coaching for students we see a high number of students with ADHD types of disabilities and so we do have a contract with ADHD coach so we offer that. We also offer a program that specifically for students who may be on the autism spectrum, and that we think it's more individualized supports and help to transition and find that sense of belonging into a university setting so we have a couple of those types of programs along with we do the similar things that they do in Vancouver with our accessibility advisors who are determining what accommodation students might need. And we have an exam team that you know we administer thousands of invigilated or accommodated exams every term and so we do sort of those same basic things and maybe some slightly different programming on our campuses. Thank you so much, Janet and Erlene. So I'm going in roughly alphabetical order so with last name surely you're next so what do inclusive and accessible practices look like in your context in your role. Thank you Christina and thanks for this invite to be part of this panel and have this very important discussion. First let me also acknowledge that today I'm on the Vancouver campus. On the traditional ancestral and I've seen the territories of the Muslim people. I'm here with much gratitude. But I think as Christina said it's more than gratitude that is needed we have to each of us acknowledge our responsibility, as I do both personally and as a member of this institution to advance in everything that I do here. So thank you so much for the indigenous human rights. A little bit about myself. 2009 came back to BC after doing a couple of degrees here, established the ombuds office established the ombuds office on the Okanagan campus 2013 I believe it was. The background is in law. I did several years at the Canadian Human Rights Commission, and then worked in professional regulation before I came here to UBC to do the strange work called ombuds work. Of course it's not in everyone's vernacular. In terms of what we do to promote accessibility and inclusion. The central mandate of the ombuds office is to promote fairness for students both individually and at that systemic level, and at both of these levels. What we try to do is foster a concept of fairness that's inextricably tied to notions of access to justice, equity and inclusion. And that's because we take the position that UBC fairness has to be informed not only by the legal principles that are embedded in administrative law that talk to us about what fairness is. But it also needs to be shaped by UBC's strategic commitments to EDI to accessibility to indigenous human rights to student health and well being and sustainability and all these other strategic commitments and promises that we've made. So when we are helping students individually or advising University on policies or procedures, we are working from this fundamental and legal definition of fairness that is centered on the concepts of flexibility and diversity, where fairness does not mean sameness, where fairness requires a consideration of the individual circumstances of that particular case, and where fairness reflects the diverse diverse lived experiences of people. So in the UBC context, we think, and this is the message that we try to advance on the on both of the campuses, that we can only achieve fairness when we purposely and purposefully acknowledge the continued damage and oppression that's caused by the colonial structures in which we all work and live and play and teach. And when we also purposefully acknowledge that our structures and our systems that we all have to operate in are inherently and very robustly patriarchal ableist and racist. So when we want to work towards helping students on that individual level helping the University at that institutional level to advance accessibility and inclusion, we're looking through the fairness lens. So we look at policies and processes and decisions. Are they transparent? Are they understandable? Can students find information and the criteria upon which decisions made against them are made. We want to hold the University accountable to that. And just as Janet said, it's not just about physical accessibility, but it's about that sense of belonging and inclusivity. Because you have to have the capacity to be able to access spaces and resources and fully engage in learning. We also look at faculty and staff. Do they have the support? Do they have the training? Do they have the skill sets and the competencies needed to meet these requirements of procedural fairness in this broader framing. So that includes things like a trauma informed approach, understanding and a commitment to anti-racism, intercultural competencies, all of that has to fit into our frame of treating students fairly. So I was just thinking back. There was a wonderful student panel at the beginning of this week. And I believe it was Corrine who said, you know, as long as there are accommodation requests or concession requests, UBC is not truly accessible. So the last thing I'll say about our role is that what we're working towards is a university where you will no longer need an Ombuds Office, because we have the policies, the practices, the competencies to treat students fairly in this inclusive and equitable way. Thanks for that. Thank you so much, Shirley. So up next, we have Janita Paul Rajan, who's Director Center for Equitable Systems Design and Extended Learning. So what does, what do inclusive and accessible practices look like in your context or your role? Thank you. Thanks very much, Christina and Jeff for the invitation to be here. So hi everyone, my name is Janita Paul Rajan and I'm the Director of the Center for Equitable Systems Design. My office is in the UBC Vancouver campus and I'm working from home now and both places are located on the traditional ancestral unceded territory of the Musqueam people. And as a settler, a woman of color from a colonized background and through the work and the programs and the courses that we have at the center, I'm trying to learn more about my and our relationship to the land, to the indigenous people here and and even our own identities and responsibilities as settlers and trying to think about how to make it even more meaningful than, you know, what we have been doing so far. So and in my role at the center, I lead the fully online non credit courses and programs in equity diversity inclusion and anti racism. These are courses and programs that cater to professionals and adult learners from across various sectors like health, education, businesses, nonprofits, the government sector, service industries, international organizations and so on. And our participants are the consultants, coaches, human resources professionals and basically people from all across the various levels in an organization, and they mostly from BC Canada and some of them from the US and some from outside. So that's the audience that's the group that we work with and what would inclusive practices look like in my role, given that we're catering to this audience and we're looking at EDI and anti racism education. So one of the things is one of the primary things is UBC is a primarily white institution and very Eurocentric so when we think about EDI education the first thing that came to my mind with this and I'm focusing specifically on the newer UBC senate approved equity diversity inclusion certificate that we offer. It's about a year old, and one of the main things is for us, we needed to make sure that every course in the program every new course in the program was developed and designed by indigenous black people of color course developers and so we may be been very intentional about it to make sure that we're bringing in their voices. The resources we use within the courses are also primarily reflective of the perspectives and lived experiences of indigenous black people of color and and also we found that a lot of the scholarship in this area tends to be from the United States and we wanted to ensure that we were creating a space where indigenous people black people people of color from within our context here were being heard and were being highlighted and amplified and so that was something that we were very intentional in doing. The other thing that we also do when it comes to facilitation our facilitators are educators their practitioners and their activists and so they bring in diverse life experiences and identities and their role in the courses is to facilitate conversations and on these tough topics and nudge people towards by asking them open-ended questions and trying to create a scenario and model cultural humility, empathy and curiosity at the same time so it's a very interesting model. And there is no one central person in the course but we try to create a space where it feels like even though it's online it feels like it's a conversation that's happening in someone's living room. And so the facilitators are very key to this work and it's amazing just the amount of skill that they bring into the space. And then within the online space itself, you know, it's not, you know, like things just like in cyberspace like what are the boundaries what are the, you know, how do you define relationships and so on. And so we try to aim, we try to have a flatter hierarchy within our courses by focusing on peer learning because people come from various backgrounds, various walks of life and sometimes we can have someone who is a CEO of an organization learning alongside somebody who is a brand new employee who has just entered the workforce. And so we want to create that flatter hierarchy so we can learn with each other. And we also, the facilitators also encourage that flatter hierarchy and we ask people to focus on their own stories, take ownership of their own learning, maintain confidentiality when needed. And oftentimes when they facilitate these conversations, it kind of reveals our own biases and our own uncertainties about inclusion and equity, even though we come in thinking, you know, yeah, I really love EDI work. But then it just surface, it brings to the surface some of our own hesitations and areas of growth. And so this is where peer learning comes in useful because it helps build a container where participants can grow in awareness and explore at the same time how they can use their skills to reduce injustices in their own workplace, given this new awareness. So it has to be like the space is held very carefully and very thoughtfully. And when it comes to coursework as well, we use the head, hands, heart metaphor. We invite people to focus on theoretical framework and practical application and self reflection, because most participants who come into the course, they're working and they want something that they can take to work with them. And they, you know, they're very curious, and they need to have a short turnaround time. So what they learn over the weekend, they may need to practice it when they show up at work on Monday morning. And, and it doesn't have to be huge changes, but it could be very small, but meaningful steps that they might take. So we try to keep the learning centered around application as much as possible. And just to give an example, had a person in in one of our courses a year ago, who was, you know, she was working, she was responsible for working with a group of with a with a leadership in her organization, a group of white folks around allegations of racism, and she was, she was stuck. She didn't know that she was stuck. She knew she was missing something, but didn't know what it was. And so they were having these discussions and then the assignments are due on Sunday and so she had this aha moment on a Sunday, and realized that she had been focusing on their intent. And so, you know, she was going through, oh, but they didn't mean that they would not have put maybe wasn't understanding. And so she's focusing on the intent and really missed seeing the impact on the racialized folks and the organization. And so that was an aha moment. And so even that, like it's a small, meaningful change, and that taking it to work with her over the week that, you know, changes things for the organization. So that's kind of how we hold the space try to make it inclusive. And, you know, yes, we have policies we have, you know, from an operations perspective, we have policies in place and yet we kind of approach it on a case by case basis as much as we can. Because, again, with adult learners, life happens, they are working multiple jobs. Sometimes they have life commitments. So, how can we show up and support them as much as we possibly can. So, those are some of the things that we do to try to make the space inclusive. Thank you. Thank you so much, Anita. So next up we have Brad Wetherick, who's associate provost academic programs teaching and learning at UBC Okanagan. So same question, what do inclusive and accessible practices look like in your context or role or how do you promote inclusion. Thanks, Christiana. Thanks, Brad Wetherick. My name is Brad Wetherick. I'm the associate provost academic programs teaching and learning in the Okanagan. I am from Edmonton, the Edmonton area originally, and then I currently have the pleasure of playing, living, working as an unseated or as a as an uninvited guest on the unseated territory of the Silks Okanagan peoples. When I think about inclusive and accessible practices from the perspective of the provost office and I should say that within my role, I do oversee the center for teaching and learning in the Okanagan. I'm part of kind of broadly overseeing significant aspects of teaching and learning, including some of how we think about and frame our design of learning spaces, our learning technology governance, our academic program planning and quality assurance processes, as well as the support that we provide for grad students and faculty. Huge spectrum of work associated with this question. I wrote down kind of seven key things that jumped to my mind and these are all huge and they're all areas where we could dive deep into and have deep conversations about how we should be improving our practices around accessibility and inclusivity. The first one that I wrote down was the design of infrastructure, so physically how are we designing our spaces, our classrooms, how are we creating, you know, how is our learning infrastructure actually enabling us to be inclusive and accessible. The second area was kind of the functionality and use of our learning technology tools. How are we ensuring that there are, that our tools are accessible that we're actually meeting kind of the expectations and needs of students, you know, across the spectrum of the technology tools that we use for learning. The third one was the design of our courses and ranging from as big a question as the modalities that we use to teach online in person and the spectrum in between to, you know, the approaches that we use to design our courses and our programs for that matter, using, you know, from a perspective of universal design for learning and culturally responsive pedagogies and and how we actually embed inclusive and accessible practices in the work that we do. The fourth one was the materials that we choose the content of our courses that we were preparing on how we're actually ensuring that that content is accessible that the content is inclusive. The fifth was the pedagogical practices that we choose to implement in our teaching practices. So the ways in which we're actually approaching the learning experiences for our students and the ways in which we actually create inclusive and accessible environments. The sixth was the assessment practices we use so the ways that we're actually assessing learning and whether or not we're actually doing assessment in ways that enables accessibility and inclusivity. And finally I wrote down the policy framework for teaching and learning as an institutional structure and so the ways in which we actually think about accessibility and accessibility from the perspective of the policies that we have in place to support the teaching learning environment. So all of these things that encompasses like the full spectrum of work that we do in teaching and learning as a campus but each of these are areas that we need to be paying attention to as we move forward. And so, you know, to jump back to the question, you know, I think it was said earlier on the panel that a default assumption that we need to make. And then understand is that that generally the history of higher education in Canada the history of higher education within UBC is Eurocentric is patriarchal is heteronormative is ableist and has created a number of different ways through a number of different ways, systemic barriers for learners across our institution across the disciplines. So how do we begin to tackle that and so understanding that this work encompasses accessibility and disability and broadly equity diversity inclusivity and and indigenous ways of knowing and indigenous perspectives that that we need to be thinking about in the the intersectional identities and practices that that are within in between these different kind of ideas or these different areas of focus. So that's all that to say that the work in front of us as we think about creating accessible and inclusive practices is is is big it's huge. There's a lot of areas that we could actually begin to focus on so I'm within the my own practices and so I'm I am an educator I'm, you know, I spent many years now leading centers for teaching and learning and and I'm, in part, have been working with, you know, people across the disciplines around the design of inclusive and accessible courses for for a number of years. So from my perspective, I think, you know, I always like to the frame this question around the context that are within our control so as as an individual instructor. I'm not likely going to be able to control the design of classrooms that are that are in place so. So from that perspective, I, you know, when I think about inclusive practices as as an individual instructor I, I'm likely not trying to tackle that one, although I may be actually coming up with strategies to mitigate the shortcomings of the physical that I that I am working in. I'm not likely to influence the institutional choice of learning technology tools as an individual instructor. But again, I can actually choose which parts of tools I use or which tools I want to use to meet the goals that I have from from an accessibility perspective. What is very much in the control of individual instructors is is the actual design of their classes the pedagogical strategies that they they choose to implement and the and the assessment practices that they're that they're choosing and so. So when I've worked with with faculty around trying to advance inclusive and accessible practices. A lot of my effort has really been thinking about how do we support the interrogation of our learning outcomes to make sure that we actually are thinking about inclusivity and accessibility as as a core component of how we define those learning outcomes. How do we then align our the strategies we use in class, whether it be discussions or experiential learning opportunities or whatever whatever kind of teaching strategies we might use within our work how are we aligning that to ensure that we're meeting accessibility goals. And then, and then the one that I think is actually often overlooked the most is actually the assessment practices that we choose and the ways in which we design assessments to be to be inclusive and accessible. So, those are kind of the high level. Things that kind of jump to my mind, I do, you know, like I said, I could dive deep into each one of the seven things I talked about and spend significant amounts of time talking about the ways in which we might be approaching. You know, improving accessibility, you know, the ways in which we need to think about governance and policy the ways we need to think about the specific design of infrastructure and the and the choices of learning technology tools and the way we assess them. But I think that kind of covers the at a high level kind of the teaching and learning framing that I think that is that is really important as we as we try to grapple with this question about what does inclusive and accessible practices look like so. I'll stop there and pass it back to you, Kristina. Thank you so much, Brad. So our last panelist is my Sway from who's the interim director of education partnerships and engagement at the equity inclusion office in UBC Vancouver. So also what do inclusive and accessible practices look like in your context or your role. Thank you and thank you to the panelists. I'll echo many of the similar points but so I'm calling in from the hell on the traditional ancestral and unceded territory of the Spanish nation and I'm an East Asian woman with mid length pair grace weather with the background image and my lovely ducks. I was a geography faculty member for 13 years. Prior to taking on this role, I work mostly on small scale community based conservation projects. And, and so I work for I'm the interim director for the education partnership and engagement team so this is, I wanted to like to start and be like this is what I want to tell people about what we do in the So the education partnership and engagement team is the team that sort of embeds practices related to equity and inclusion within the, the different academic and non academic units throughout the university so we're in a sports we support in this embedding. And, and there's all these like strategic plans and recommendations from the IP ISP and areas task force recommendations that have come up and many others to that sort of like tell the broad direction of the units where the units need to go, but the precise details of actually action, and functioning these requires quite a lot of capacity building and support and, and as y'all are probably realizing right now, considerations related to inclusion equity justice access decolonization and digitization touches on everything that you do within a unit which is kind of overwhelming. And, and so I feel like I'm very often when I'm meeting with people I'm kind of saying broadly the same thing but it's basically this it's like, I just am trying to remind people we're trying to remind people. This is part of your job, like all of your jobs from faculty leadership staff to TAs. Second, it's really hard and a bit awkward, we know. And third, we're here to provide support and you can totally do this. And then we try to like connect people to the community of people, because I know departments can be a little siloed to all the other people who are doing this amazing work across the university so that you can be inspired by the counselors, which we know is really important, and feel like you can succeed. And so we spent a lot of time consulting with individuals, especially people who are championed EDI within their units, as well as people and formal leadership roles, and mostly we like work to hear like what are the challenges that people are facing. And so we can provide some tips and strategies on what might work in their unique sort of socio cultural climate. That's what departments often are. And so, you know, like a good educator I don't want you to see us as like the diversity police I don't want people to be afraid of me or the equity office. I like to think of our role as building relationships to help people feel intrinsically motivated to create change. So my, I think my role is largely about working to create a supportive context so that people feel intrinsically motivated to engage in socio cultural change. And I also don't want to that to be like us, the equity office being the EDI for your unit because that puts on us on us rather than keeping you on the hook to build your internal capacity and resources and enact changes and within your processes. So we often get these come to our unit and spend 30 minutes and talk about racism so that we can check off anti racism for our work and say we're doing something and then I'm like, can we figure out a way in which we can help you build your internal capacity and and have a greater sense of ownership on this work to make the changes. And if this takes many many conversations to inspire people who are in positions of power to take ownership and take on this path. That's both positive for Jedi and also feels meaningful for the folks within the unit. And that's what we do. And, you know, like there's always a space for like straight up sort of education like being like a workshop or something like that. And especially if the chances of people implementing this education is very high like I think Rachel Sullivan and our office does these ongoing training. And Tays are great because they're kind of new to teaching and pretty open excited about learning about these topics and so, you know, you're likely to get pretty good, you know, from transition from awareness to action, which is what we always want. And so that's sort of gives you some idea of the type of work that we're doing. Wonderful. Thank you so much. So we do have a second question. I also want to be sure to leave time for questions and thoughts from our participants. So I'm wondering if maybe we can sort of pick a little bit at one one piece of the second question and move a little bit quickly so there's those time left. So the second question is what are existing systematic barriers or key challenges that students, staff and faculty with disabilities face or other kinds of systemic barriers of which we know there are many. How are you or your unit and UBC initiatives working to address or overcome these barriers so maybe I don't want to say pick the, you know, one that is the most important because there are so many right but but maybe just think about about one that that you might like to emphasize today. So I'm going to jump around a little bit and start with Janita this time if that's okay. Yeah, sure. So I have one example comes to mind and it's one of the biggest systemic barriers for our learners was around affordability and time because they're working your multiple jobs, lots of things going on. And our usual courses are six weeks long and they cost around 1000 bucks and so we decided that we needed to make our courses more affordable and then create more pathways for people to be for more people to be able to take them. So we decided we'd make shorter courses that could be stacked towards a certificate if they were interested for a lower price point. And so instead of 40 hour long course options. Now we have a suite of new courses that are about 15 hours long and takes about approximately two to three weeks to complete them and they cost around 400 bucks. So we went from 1000 to 400. And so while this opened the doors for more people to access our programs and get a UBC credential. It also posed some new challenges for us, the volume of learners coming in at a time increased exponentially, but the expectations remain the same. So the expectations for a $400 course was the same as a $1000 course. So I mean this is just a joke, but I like I think of it as you know paying for the days in but expecting a Ritz Carlton treatment. And so we currently trying to figure out how we can meet the demand and also ensure that expectations and the amount of service we provide for course is also sustainable for us and for our facilitators. So that's one barrier. Thank you very much. So surely, would you like to go next. Surprise, Tapa. No, not at all not at all. I think I'll just say that the systemic barriers that come to our office, you know they come in all shapes and sizes as we all know. But I'll talk to the recurring and sort of common elements that we see beneath those systemic barriers. And one thing that it reveals to us is that the rules and processes and policies that we have at UBC. They weren't created, nor do they align with UBC strategic commitments to EDI to indigenous human rights to student health and well being. And secondly, the other recurring element that we see from the barriers is a rigid and inflexible interpretation of those rules that protect historical power hierarchies that are generally based on this misunderstanding of fairness that you have to treat everybody the same, and the same aligns with the standard of the white able bodied heterosexual, not poor, and mentally well person. So treat everybody the same at that standard. So, from what we're seeing in this moment in time, I think we're at a place where we have the opportunity to make a paradigm shift here. And instead of looking at how do we increase resources to deal with all these different concessions and accommodations and changes and flexing, it's time now to look at the framework itself and stop thinking about the students who are making these requests as being the problem or somehow not meeting the level of the university and say, you know what, we're so overwhelmed with these issues. It's time to look inside and the framework itself and say, we've got to shift the framework. It's not about students becoming more resilient, stop telling students to become more resilient. It's time for the institution to change its system so that we don't have to keep telling students to get stronger or work faster. And just in time, I thought when I was listening again to the student panel earlier this week, they were just so fantastic. But one student was talking about getting extra time to write exams. And I thought, well, you know, who's standard. Did we establish the three hour exam time or who's sense of time or capacity or privilege where those decisions made. And if we can't go back to those decisions and give good reasons for it as in the ombuds world we say fairness requires good reasons. We have to go back to those decisions themselves and critically evaluate and critically challenge some of these rules that have in place for decades and say, maybe it's time to change the standard and try to meet the needs of our diverse population of students. Thank you so much, Shirley. And how about Earlene and Janet are kind of doing a tag team. I think that I echo what Shirley is saying. I think the policies that exist currently don't necessarily align with the new and evolving the plans that are coming out and the ideas that UBCs wants to be more, wants to be inclusive and action those things when the policies are grounded in like centuries old ideas around pedagogy and what is what is academic what is an academic. And so the barriers that I see going to try to be brief the barriers that I see really stem from working and studying in a system that is really grounded in ableism that dictates to us about us even understanding that it's doing so. What does a student look like? What does a faculty member, what does an instructor look like? What do they do? What are they capable of? And those things are just sort of defined for us through this ableist lens. And then we're making decisions about all kinds of things based on what we think, what we've been sort of socializing, grounded in thinking of what it is to be a student or an instructor or a staff member at the university. So I think there's some alignment that needs to happen. And I know in culture change and those things don't happen overnight and they take time but these kinds of discussions and the awareness of growing awareness is happening. Are the things that we need to be doing and engaging in to make those changes. And I would just again echo like decision makers really need to rethink kind of how they're making the decisions and on what basis they're making decisions. That's my soapbox. Okay, well I'll climb on mine. So I think I'm probably coming at this just from a exactly the same but a slightly different angle to say that I think that the greatest systemic barrier that we face to inclusion particularly for people with disabilities is our own attitudes and the attitudes that are created by our actions. And it shows up in multiple different ways. It can show up in even the assumptions around what a person, how a person with a disability presents or who is a person with a disability. You know, often we think of disabilities being something that is visible that we can identify as we look at a person or we talk with a person and the Center for accessibility for example I think and the DRC on both on the Okanagan campus. The majority, the vast majority of people we see are people with invisible disabilities for whom, unless you know them intimately you would never be able to tell that that they would identify as a person with a disability and so that's one of the pieces. The second is around the assumptions we make around disability and how those then influence our behaviors and maybe just the quickest way I can articulate that would be, I was interviewed recently by CITR and it was a conversation and so they were telling me as many stories as I was telling them and one of the stories that one of the interviews told was of wanting to be in medicine or in nursing and being told as a person who was hard of hearing that she would not be able to function and work as a nurse by more than one person and so, you know, it was a heartbreaking story but also a real illustration of the fact that, you know, that then leads to behaviors from the individuals she's working with but also her own self, self-esteem and her own ability to kind of make decisions for herself and so, you know, I think if we could get to a place where we understood the impact of our own attitudes we would be able to really look at some of the other things that others have talked about. So I'll climb off my box and pass it back to you, Christina. Sure. Thank you. So just two more folks on the panel who haven't spoken yet to the second question. So, Mike, could you speak to some existing systemic barriers or key challenges that students, faculty and staff face? I'm sorry, I agree with some of the points that I've already made and I think the main thing is like the onus shouldn't be up to the individual diverse student or person to create change and have to force them to navigate this really complicated system. It is up to the university to create a more hospitable environment for these students. And the main thing that I think about is in my role is to support people and shifting their mindset from a monocultural mindset to one that always assumes that there are diverse students, staff and faculty. And then, you know, going through what they need to do in order to all the processes and all the aspects of their job, whether we're talking about research, service teaching, and then making changes with that assumption that there will always be people with very different lived experiences and identities. And so within the teaching and learning space, you know, that could be things like ensuring that instructors tell students about all the different affinity spaces that exist at UBC or support systems that that units that exist at UBC, perhaps on their syllabus or in making that available or on the first week of classes. Maybe it's about designing assessments like what Brad said, and that aren't based on a single high stakes exam that evaluates just one type of learning, or ensuring really like that you're setting up your class in a super welcoming way in the first week of class and that if something comes up, they'll feel comfortable talking to you. Or maybe it's about introducing to your students in the first week of classes like an inclusive equitable transparent process for resolving conflicts within your class or making it clear how you want feedback that you're open to feedback and that you're how you want feedback. When say I do something as an instructor that isn't super sensitive. And then beyond the traditional classes there's all these other considerations that that units need to be thinking about which are like how do you create inclusion and labs what are you doing in terms of field courses, developing co op programs. And then of course beyond that, and when we're thinking about the beyond what changes faculty individual faculty members need to be making. There's also things that need to be done at more of the leadership role of like, how to evaluate effectiveness in teaching practices, and as well as more broadly like how are you considering inclusive teaching within performance review faculty or similarly. Are you using inclusive practices and principles of universal design and providing information about these types of supports for onboarding for all faculty and staff, as well as during hiring. And so those are some of the things that come to mind. Thank you so much. And Brad, let us know about some one or one or more of the many, unfortunately, systemic barriers. Yeah, so I, and I when I think about systemic barriers always think about the barriers faced on the pathways into during, or through the learning experiences and beyond our learning experiences of the barriers that are faced throughout that full of work. I, you know, I wanted to touch on specifically thinking about the moment we're in so the moment that we're in as an institution. After two years of extremely difficult circumstances. But, you know, as difficult as those, you know, these years have been for for our learners. There are some things that have been highlighted through this this experience that that I think are are really valuable to learn and so, you know, we've heard regularly from students about how much they appreciated the flexibility and access that was provided by the use of the different technologies that that we've been using during this time to give one specific example the number of students who have actually been able to access cat classroom capture recordings as a way of actually supporting their learning experiences and so so this is just a very micro example of kind of the specific moment we're in but you know this during if you've been following along the teaching and learning world over the last two years. There's this this idea has been talking about this idea of pandemic pedagogy so what does it look like for us to actually think about pedagogy in the moment that that we're in with the pandemic. And it started really with this idea of you know, what does it really mean to move learning remote, and how do we actually think about designing spaces, designing learning in those environments. And interestingly that literature that that called those conversations the dialogue and discussion happening is focused on actually how some of those technologies are in use yes but also how are we actually thinking about empathy and compassion as core philosophies for how we're actually approaching the learning environment and so many of our institutions actually implemented and you've seen no exception. There are practices around kind of where we we we centered kind of empathy and compassion in the work that we do with with learners. And so I've, I've actually written recently on this idea of actually moving to endemic pedagogy so rather than pandemic pedagogy, thinking about this this future of an endemic world where, you know, COVID is likely never, we're never going to be beyond COVID, but, but actually using this kind of metaphor of endemic to say well what was the, what were these benefits that we took from this past experience, and how do we actually sustain them moving forward how do we actually center flexibility and access into the ways that we design our programs in our courses. How do we center empathy and compassion in the practices that we are putting into place as instructors or into the policies and in our campuses. How do we ensure that relationships are at the core of learning so that that we can actually enable kind of the deep holistic education that we that we want to aim for. And it means teaching and designing differently. And so that's a really broad perspective but I wanted to end my my reflections on this one to talk about the fact that it's really easy to talk about all the things that faculty and programs need to think about. But to do this we really need to understand to recognize and support the the systemic barriers faced by faculty themselves to doing this work and. And so, you know, not just faculty with disabilities and BIPOC faculty, for whom there are there are, you know, many systemic barriers to them to that that they face but, but you know all faculty are facing issues associated with time and it was just mentioned how we are evaluating teaching, you know, on our campuses. So actually we need to think about, you know, how are we actually enabling our faculty and supporting our faculty to transition into this kind of this future where we actually try to center empathy and compassion and inclusivity and accessibility and into the work that we do moving forward and so I think, you know, it, it is, it is critical that across our institution we're putting the learner at the center of kind of these conversations and how we're actually reducing barriers and to those pathways into through and beyond our programs, but to do that we need to also be really emphasizing the, the ways in which we reduce the barriers faced by faculty to actually do this work effectively and to support them effectively to do this work so I'll end there and I look forward to questions and from the from those who are in attendance today so Thank you so much this has been incredibly rich and and I really appreciate the different experiences and perspectives from all of the different areas of your work that you've been able to bring and we've got some similar ideas but also some very specific ones that you know folks may not have thought about before so thank you so much, and just wanted to add on to Brad's, you know, we, we do have to think about all of us in the institution as well right so us, right leaders, and also staff members to and students and faculty like that there's barriers that and that lots of folks are facing and this is challenging work. So I would like to open it up now for anyone from the participant group who would like to ask a question, you can do so in one of two ways you can post something into the zoom chat. And we have a Q&A facilitator Jillian Gerhardt will be looking at the chat and reading those out loud, or you can raise your hand. It's using the zoom reactions button at the bottom of your screen and you can speak on the microphone if you'd like to do it that way and I'll be doing the, I'll be doing the oral questions and Jillian will be reading the zoom questions so please. I go ahead. See I do see a comment in the chat which I will read out. So thank you. We've got a couple of thank yous for all the time and efforts. We have also for Brad particularly thank you for acknowledging the faculty and staffs role in creating an inclusive institution. At HR we say that student experience does not exceed faculty and staff experience and then we have a second of that. So thank you so much. So, questions from anyone participating. Now I can also just say if there was anything that you wanted to say that, you know, because we were going a bit quickly through that second question if there's anything you wanted to add about the barriers or how you're addressing the barriers or respond to something that anyone else on the panel said while we're waiting to see if there are questions from the participants. I do see a hand up so we'll go with that. So please go ahead one. Hello, thanks. Thanks so much for this wonderful. Thanks for sharing of your perspectives and experiences. Really appreciate it. I am. I just about. There were a couple of you who talked about the attitudes and assumptions as one of the barriers. I was thinking about how also our editors and assumptions also shape and are shaped by language that we use in practice in policies and documents on a day to day basis. And I was just wondering if any of you just like to speak to how how you see the role of language in practices and policies and how it how we could be also more aware of how language plays a role in increasing accessibility and inclusive culture in in our practices and in our policies or in many other ways that we can contribute to more more inclusive more accessible culture. Thank you very much. That's an excellent question. I'll throw it out to the panel and see anyone would like to start. Just to emphasize that you're, I would 100% agree that I think language absolutely influences attitudes and practices. I think that the the language used as part of the discourse of our of our campus or or the subcultures of our departments. Certainly influences the ways in which courses are designed and pedagogical practices are implemented and assessment practices are implemented the language in our policies clearly influences those those attitudes and practices as well and attending to language is one of those pieces that I think is is critical at all aspects of this work. When we when we talk about kind of reframing the policy framework for our campus around inclusivity and accessibility. We need to really be, you know, mindful of the ways in which even, you know, individual words within those policies can actually serve as both enablers or barriers to actually achieving the goals that we're trying to to achieve and so it does. That's not to say I any simple profound kind of response to your question but just to assert or to affirm that I think it's absolutely critical that that language is attended to in this work so it's spread anyone else like to add. I was just going to say maybe to build on that that you know I the concept of disability itself is is socially constructed right like it, it's. So you're absolutely right the language we use is based on our assumptions and and our understanding of that that we have formed as a part of our social understanding of identity. I think the other the other piece that and I know in in our work in the Center for accessibility we really struggle in making sure that when it comes to accessing the resources that we have available that people recognize themselves in the in the name of the unit and in the way that we position ourselves and so many years ago and and this is not a criticism of the the name disability resource center but but we made a decision on the Vancouver campus. Given some of the struggles that we were facing around making sure that all individuals whether they recognized or identified themselves the person with the disability knew about this the resources that were available we switch to being the Center for accessibility so we switch to a title that reflected our ambition. As a center and as an as an institution on the Vancouver campus, rather than identifying the people that we were supporting and a part of that was to recognize that some people with ongoing medical conditions that may be facing barriers would not consider themselves to be a person with a disability and therefore may not have access to services so it's just a simple example of where the language played a role for us in in whether or not people came forward to to identify the seeking resources. I also see my and I just wanted to mention like one very concrete discrete example is like the language that's in job descriptions. Anyways, I focus so much on hiring because it's like how a search committees are talking about hiring and what kind of decisions they make it's just like a microcosm of all the cultural changes that need to happen in your unit in order to get to an inclusive and equitable place but I always think about like, oh man you we see you always have to use like outstanding like the language they use is always like, I get it you probably want to say that certain kinds of people are going to feel that they fit that mold of being outstanding more than others and that in itself is going to create such a barrier from certain groups of people like oh I don't meet like if you're my equity deserving group or you, you know, are you near diverse or whatever you're like well maybe I can't really label myself with outstanding so I'll just sit back and won't apply so there's so many parts of that and I know there's like a lot of literature on like gendered language which is also part of it if you write it in a very gendered way it's like oh this is only meant for men that's fine I'm not going to apply, but I think that's a really good example and also like, yeah that and I think of like the language that we put in syllabi of like writing language that assumes that we're all coming in from different places and I think that kind of things is very concrete thing that we can do. Thank you, Earlene. I just, I think I just wanted to add to what Janet said and just acknowledge that within the disability community that the word disability is like a person first or so whether you use disabled person or person with disability, those are preferred languages and they're quite contested. There's no I don't think there's any wrong. It's not wrong for one person that might be wrong person might be right right so language and discourse really informs our, our practices in a tremendously probably more than we even understand and acknowledge. And so we're always very careful around language, but we don't aren't always going to get it right. It doesn't matter like we're not going to get it right for everybody right so. And I think, but we need to be really intentional, I think, in our language, whether it's in our job postings or in our websites in the way that we speak with people the way that we acknowledge people I think you know it's really important and it reflects sort of like the values and beliefs as a person or even from the institutional perspective that we call when we're talking about accessibility inclusion. Thank you. So my has just put into the chat a link to a resource on language and job descriptions it's from the University of Nottingham. Towards diverse workforces transforming the language of exclusion bias and recruitment so thank you so much for including that. And we also have a comment about language being complex and every evolving just sort of reiterating what you were talking about early. So there's a current movement for identity first language. And so re owning and being proud of being disabled, but not everyone aligns with that so what's important is to create a culture inclusion. Thank you for these comments in the chat. Oh, and I think my just also put in an actual file off to take a look at that one later. We probably have time for another question if anyone would like to ask a question in the chat or raise your hand and speak. How am I saying this there's a draft document in the chat that the equity inclusion office has created that might be interested. So that's about job descriptions, right. Fantastic. Certainly something that affects everyone at the institution. I was just going to maybe just to reiterate Brad's comment. I do think one of the philosophies or or approaches that we've taken as much as we can is to try to make it as easy as possible for people to do the right thing and it and it's a recognition that, you know, I think as an institution we do aspire to creating a welcoming inclusive accessible learning and living environment for all. But it isn't always easy to do so. And when we place the responsibility on individuals to achieve what is an institutional goal or vision. I think we really lose out and so you know if we can in this process also start to think about what are the institutional resources and practices and systems that we can put in place, so that instructors or program staff or others can easily contribute to achieving our vision. I think we will move much more quickly in in the direction that we're hoping to go. I appreciate that thank you. So we're getting close to time so I think I will close out our session we are meant to end in a couple of minutes. And I wanted to close out by thanking our panelists and very much for joining us today it's fantastic to be able to hear from people working in different units in different contexts and hearing about the various work that you all do. I'd like to thank our attendees for joining us today for an hour and a half of conversation about accessibility and inclusivity and teaching and learning. Thank you to our moderators, there's several folks working behind the scenes to our events staff who made sure that everything is working smoothly and from start to finish with Celebrate Learning Week. And just to let you know a follow up email will be sent to all attendees at the end of this week so that's coming up very soon, which will include a feedback survey as well as a link to the Celebrate Learning Week wiki page where you can find slides, recordings and other resources from the sessions. There are a few more events today and tomorrow in Celebrate Learning Week. And so, if you would like to check those out, please go to celebrate learning.ubc.ca, and it has just been posted in the chat. So celebrate learning dot ubc.ca and then click on events. And I also see that there's been a few people who had to leave early who asked to express their thanks to the panelists. So thank you, Jillene, for that. Yeah, so just a quick food for thought. There's a lot of great work being done at UBC. A couple colleagues and I are attending sessions making efforts to incorporate inclusive practices and it would be great to think of ways to reach the rest of UBC educators so that's a good parting thought for all of us to consider. So thanks so much to everyone for joining us today and I hope you have an excellent rest of your day and week. Thank you.