 The International Consortium of Investigative Journalist ICIJ releases the Pandora Papers, which exposes financial secrets of rich and powerful and implicates 10 Nigerian politicians. And AROHA Group tells Northern Governors to seal any shop closed in solidarity with iPops' sit-at-home order. And again, something is happening in Abia State. This is Plus Politics, a diary and a poll. The Pandora Papers are kasha for about 11.9 million files, which shows the secret deals and heathen assets of some of the world's richest and most powerful people have been revealed in the biggest trove of leaked offshore data in history. Ten Nigerian politicians have been named in the scandal for flouting laws and legislations as they hide assets. Among some of these are Governor Bubakaba Guru of Kepi State and Pitalbi, an ex-governor of Anambra State. No less than 10 Nigerian politicians have also been implicated in the Pandora Papers, at least eight African countries featured in the document. Well, joining us to break this down is Ladikot Johnson, a legal practitioner. Kofi Battels, a broadcast journalist and Aroha Obo, a foreign affairs expert. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. I'm going to start with you, Aroha, because it's not just a Nigerian situation. It's an international situation. And as I stated in the opener, we have several countries, including African countries, and Nigeria has 10 politicians and highly placed individuals in that particular expose. But let's start with the guys on the international scene. We see, not necessarily directly, but we hear that Putin is one way or the other linked to some of these leaks. We've seen the Czech Republic Prime Minister. We've seen former Prime Minister, British Prime Minister Tony Blair. We've seen the King of Jordan. I mean, the list is such a rich and very famous list. Let's start by looking at the personalities of these people and what this could do, the damage that it could do to the statusists. Yeah, it's remarkable. When you compared these previous releases that have happened, there was the Panama Papers, you remember, a couple of years ago. They also had the Paradise, or Kairat by the ICI, JL, so too. So in context, many of the things that they've put out, many of those names you find there have also been previous releases which have been put before this, this put out before this Pandora box. We're going to go Panama and Pandora box. So you have many of those names replaying and repeating themselves. And what many people have argued, which I'm sure that the questions will help explain to us is the difference in whether they've exactly done what is illegal or the hypocrisy, like former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair has been mentioned, saying that, for example, you've been very, very loud and outspoken about people, the rich exploiting the systems and not being able to pay the taxes. And then at the end of the day, you go and then you find a way to not pay the taxes that you should pay in the 6.2 million pounds of real estate investment where he's been mentioned. So those are all the things that also took a lot of interest in the African leaders names that we mentioned. We have the Kenyan president, who's been mentioned. And interestingly, what he said directly was that he's doing something now, when he gets the opportunity, without the opportunity to respond, what he thinks is going to be an opportunity to look at the transparency behind the entire thing. The sort of sticks to the sort of approach he wants to go around this. And if you listen to many people in Nairobi, the Kenyan capital, they seem, you know, we'll play along with what the president is saying. He's not saying that what he did was right. He's saying that give me the opportunity to explain what exactly has happened. And it's an interesting angle that is taken. A lot different from people like the Gabonese president, Ali Bongo, whose family has been in power through his father, Omar Bongo, in the 60s until now. His name is mentioned together with neighboring Congolese president, Denis Sasungueso. These are people who've run shadowy government for a long while. They've been in government for multi-decades. And I don't see how this will in any way change the perception within their people. I mean, they've held on the reins of government irrespective of what the Western world has taught. So it's interesting to see a number of African leaders who have been mentioned. There's a former prime minister of Mozambique who was indicted before he was removed. He's also found his name in there. There's a prime minister of Cote d'Ivoire also too, who's also been mentioned in this interesting list. But it would be good to see what happens in the coming days, which were very important personalities will be put there. But by and large, I tried to compare and contrast the sort of elected political office holders you find on that list in Africa compared to the rest of the world. It still appeals in comparison. You probably want to see more going by the lack of transparency with many African governments. You should find more names there than what we're seeing. As journalists, we report these things and it was a group of journalists, about 600 of them, who came together to put out this expose. Now, looking at, just like picking up from where our goggle has stopped, most of the African leaders, he's talking about the level of transparency. Now, we see that there's a scramble of sorts to try to gag or do some damage control as to the leak that has already happened. But do you see any move from African presidents whatsoever? Do you see this maybe happening in the case, for example, a Jacob Zuma who's facing some case of financial misappropriation and on other matters. Do you see that in other African countries, including Nigeria, taking it up for real or are the leaders just going to let it blow over from experience? I think that what we're seeing from the West, countries outside Africa, they seem to have the values they have in those parts of the world. Where the leaders are accountable to the people and where they are asked and expected to come out and give explanations. Sometimes they apologize to the public and sometimes they also resign voluntarily. But it would be interesting to see if African leaders who have been fingered and named the Pandora papers, almost said Panama papers like my colleague on the other side. It would be interesting to see if African leaders who told that line. Historically and traditionally, we've not been known to have leaders who resigned voluntarily. Historically and traditionally, we've not known to have leaders who give a two cents about what the people think. Even the outrage that has greeted such a revelation is not as much as you have in the Western part of the globe. So I would be surprised if we see some of the levels of explanation and alabies and we've been getting. But in terms of denials, of course, we've seen that. For instance, Peter will be the former governor of Anambra State. Then we said most recently, the vice presidential running mate in the presidential election. He said that he was not expected to reveal to the Court of Conduct Bureau his assets, which he shared with other people, and that this company had other persons on board. It wasn't just him. That's Gabriella Investment, which, by the way, is registered in his daughter's name. This is the excuse he has given. Peter, he's a gentleman. But if you're talking about the bongos in Gabon, the history of their expenditure and expenses is well documented. The man's son is vice president of the country. He's a playboy on Instagram, and he does not spare any effort in showing his lavish lifestyle on Instagram, just like Hosh Gopi did. And if he cared about what people thought, he would not be showing such lavish and extravagant lifestyle. For quite a loud demand, the president's son is a vice president of Gabon. So he's also been fingered and investigated in France by some French lawyers and judges over some corruption allegations where even his expensive sports cars that are kept in France, he uses that anytime he gets to, I'm talking about bongo, anytime he gets to France, those were taken away out of a judge. So he vehemently denied this. So we'll have the denials. Well, in terms of any contrition, I don't think African leaders really feel they can be held to account by their people. But of course, I'll expect denials, yes. I mean, we've seen instances. I mean, Jacob Zuma is one of the instances I gave earlier. But I think in early 2020, we had the same issue in I think Algeria, if I'm not mistaken, where the leader and his daughter had same issues of financial misappropriation and it's been followed through. But when we say that we're not sure that African countries or African leaders might do this, is it because of the people themselves not being able to push for it? Or is it that maybe the ones that have, one way or the other been brought to book is because of consistency from maybe outside countries outside, or maybe people in diaspora pushing for it to happen? Because you sound more like it's something that will blow over. You know, by the number of revelations we've had in Nigeria, you know, some will say 10, you know, from the Nigerians, you know, named in the Pandora paper week or the publication. You'd have expected, you know, a lot of public concentration on this, a lot of public condemnation and even just one extensive protests, if that is possible. We've had several Pandora papers in Nigeria. There's a lot of it. I mean, people have been filmed, stashing foreign currencies into their clothes. People have been filmed, you know, offering bribes. People have been fingered in corruption, you know, investigations have been taken to court, and then they switch political party and the case dies. There's several Pandora papers in the last few years in the current democratic dispensation in Nigeria. Nothing has happened. People have gone about their basic, you know, about their daily life. And I mean, you talk to the average man on the street, he would even justify it by saying, oh, if the man who is my brother or my snowman who is my sister gets into a position of authority in government and does not amass wealth for himself so he can share to his family and his village people, then he has failed. So it's almost a way of life. So you're saying, so you're saying, boss online that we encourage, we aid and abate these people and the corruption that is going on in our country? I'm saying that civil society, you know, the media can throw some light on it. We're going to talk about it for some time, and it will go away. It will go away. I was just telling someone about this issue, saying we have corruption in every part of the world. The difference is that they have systems and laws that are effective and deal with people. So if you have anything corrupt going on, you want to think twice about it because when the law catches up with you, the law will be no respect of a person. Well, in Nigeria, what are we going to expect? In La Cote d'Ivoire, what can we expect? The president of La Cote d'Ivoire, Watara, was part of a delegation that visited Dumbuya, who is now just been sworn in as the head of state of the Republic of Guinea, to tell him that he needed to hand over power back to a democratic president and that he needed to step aside. Now, this is the same man who went against the country's constitution, tinkered with it, and ran for office for a third time with the support of France. So Africa in general, we have laws that are not effective. I mean, presidents are able to tinker with the constitution, and that was what's going on in Guinea, by the way, to tinker with the constitution to favor themselves. They're able to appoint their children as vice-president, their children as ministers. We can go to Angola where, for years, the Doshantos family has been known to be very wealthy. I mean, the daughter of the president then, Doshantos, she is one of the wealthiest women in the world. That was the country I was referring to, was Angola, not Altaria. Yes, Angola. Angola, yes, Angola, yes, yes. And you know, I mean, these are families that were not wealthy and became wealthy when they were in power. So this is Africa for you, and the people who accept it as that, they would also try to see how they can give themselves a piece of the cake. Okay. To you, Mr. Johnson, it's very interesting that, you know, we're having this conversation, and everybody seems to be sounding very alike, and there's not a dint of optimism out there that we can hold on to, even as I've pointed to some of the things that have happened. But this is just as Orr said, we've had Panama papers, we've had so many papers. So what difference does this make for us in the country? Now, before now, we were talking about the difference between it being illegal and it being unethical. Let's draw a line between, you know, unethical and illegal. Yes. Putting money in tax havens to save yourself from paying taxes or what have you, might not necessarily be illegal. Okay. Now, it would most times be unethical. Sometimes it would be illegal, depending on the tax system you have in your own country. Okay. And then, of course, the other question is how was the money made in the first place? Most of them illegally. I agree. So, some wealthy families, let's forget the politicians now, some wealthy families, like the King of Jordan. Exactly. Some wealthy families will keep doing that. It will not end. They'll keep doing that. Why do they keep doing, because, you know, you see the simple person, and this is the, I think this is the debate in the U.S. right now between those who follow the former presidential aspirant, what's his name? Ben, what's his name now? Presidential aspirant? Yeah, presidential candidate for the Democrats. He's been pushing that the rich pay taxes, but we see that most... Okay, Benny Sanders. Benny Sanders. Now, he's insisting that these rich people pay taxes, and it's almost the same thing that they're pushing right now in the U.K. So, if the rich keep taking their monies to tax havens because they can, and the common man or the middle class is continuously drained of their monies, isn't that both illegal and unethical? No, it might be unethical, but I assure you if it were illegal, whenever it's illegal, the American government will clamp down immediately on the person. So, most times it is the rich, the wealthy families that can afford the accountants and the lawyers and the consultants and can hide their money. They do this because they want the money to last through the generations. And for instance, in Africa, it would keep happening because Africa is still a place where some governments are uncertain. So, while Africa is poor, while we're... No, Africa is not poor. What we are. Africa is wealthy. We're wealthy. We have natural... Well, we are poor. For example, last year in Nigeria, I was going to help me out. We think that we're rich, but we're poor as we speak. We're still borrowing. We're asking for help. But then we're sending our monies to fund other economies and build it while us are suffering. Exactly. What it is Marianne is at, it is clear. When you look at Gabon, you look at Nigeria, you look at Angola, you look at these countries. You may say the people there are poor, but the countries are wealthy. Now, Nigeria is a wealthy country. It has been mismanaged. It is borrowing. God knows about a billion a day, if you understand. Break it down. If you break it down. So, it's a matter of management. Or you can't tell me that with the gas reserves we have, with the crude we still have, that we're a poor country, with the human resources we have, 200 million people, we're not a poor country. We're the people that are poor. And going back to your question, it will continue this way and the whole thing will go away because of the people. The people fail to hold the leadership to account. We've become normal. We almost expect it. Most people will tell you only 10 Nigerian politicians only. You understand? So, that is the sad situation. Unfortunately. Let me come back to you because I want us to talk about the two politicians. Let's not forget that in this report, we're yet to see the other Nigerians and their names. But we have seen two names. And I want us to examine the personalities of these two people. Until last week, former Governor Peter Albee is talking about how to restructure Nigeria, how to reposition us for progress and this and that. And now, his name is appearing on this report. And he's given us some, he's argued some deniability and said that he didn't think it was necessary to have certain information with the CCB. But what does this do looking at, because we know that he's had political ambitions and still will have political ambitions. And don't forget, this is a time in the country's life where people are pushing for a southern presidency or some leadership from the South, whether it be South East or South South. What does this do to his image and his political career in the country? Will it even brush, as much as brush it? Well, interestingly, he even did grant an interview to the Prime Young Times who collaborated with the ICI and the ICI from the Nigerian side. And it was interesting to hear his comments, you know, he said, look, I did not take Anambra State money. His only concern was in his international affiliations how he viewed. And he sort of believes that the people who can look at its track record as a governor of Anambra State, which he says it is, untainted. And I'm sure you can publicly, for him to be able to take that sort of position, probably knows what he's talking about, about his political capital, whether it's there or not. Maybe in Anambra State, the people in Abga can say whether he's that powerful enough to get those votes if he decides to put his hat ahead of the 2023 general election. But if you take your mind back to 2007 or 2006, late 2006, the run-up to the general elections then, you remember for my presentation with Abbas, I did put out the list of what they consider to be the most corrupt and injurious, who were not fit to buy for office. But over 250 names were there about it. It began with 400 and then it trimmed down to 250. And there was a lot of argument whether the EFCC then had the powers to decide who can be buy for office or not. Only Attico Abu Bakar then, you know, decided to take on the president, Abbas and John there, up to the Supreme Court and then was said that you cannot EFCC doesn't have a power to say you cannot contest for election when that time happens. You went on to contest 2007 election, but it just went on to show exactly how these things play out. All of those names you had on that list, none of them ever went before the court. This is a different between when it was done and it's been indicted, which is a reasonable doubt around the person. And when it gets to court, it's the different matter entirely, which I'm sure Attico will understand about how this thing happened in the jurisprudence when people go to court and then they say whether they have enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this has been the case of corruption. So what people say, who look at what we told Bihar said, whether or not that would spotify him. And he said, you can go and go check and find out whether any of those things will affect me. Attico Abu Bakar is at the end of his tenure as governor of Kambi State by next year. Interesting politician, one of the more progressive politicians in in the Northwest, trusting the state hasn't been beaten by the abandoned board, the way it's hit other states like Kanduna and Kassina, South Dakota and Zamfara State. He can point us over interesting things that happened during his tenure. This thing about the Abacha Luta and its role there has happened there, you know. They've been talking about this for a number of months. But does that not again call to question how we think and how we function in this country, whether we're followers or leaders, even including law enforcement, the fact that he had this looming and he still is a governor, sitting governor in a state and nothing said, nothing questioned. And now here we are again with some questionable, maybe unethical, maybe illegal issues hanging around his neck again. Absolutely. So I see a lot of comments. A number of people say that the state assembly, the lawmakers in Kambi state can call for, you know, panel to look into and maybe start impeachment possibly. You know the way the state assemblies work in the country, we adjust lap dogs to the executive. They say, not in any state governor, in any state assembly, they say you carry out impeachment processes, more likely with the deputy governor, but not with the sitting governor. The closest we had, maybe, was with Peter O'Vee, then as governor for numbers. But look what happened afterwards within a couple of weeks the entity was turned upside down and he got back into office. To imagine that any state governor who is mentioned in these Pandora papers, whose state assembly will decide to begin impeachment proceedings, it's very, very unlikely because the governors are very powerful, they control all of the institutions. It goes back to the question about the strength of institutions, whether it's with the judiciary or the legislature, or with the law enforcement, you know, there's a lot of weakness in how they're able to stand up against the sort of impact they're going to see and play out, I guess with the amendment 10 names that happen. Let me go to you, Kofi, before we come back to Mr. Johnson. Just as our said, the institutions, as we all know, are not as strong as the men that we have in this country. But then that leaves the fourth estate to, you know, be in this struggle somewhat alone. And we've also been taking a lot of flak as a result of that, speaking truths to power, and sometimes even highlighting certain issues that have been swept under the carpet. So again, in pushing for us to be able to deal with these issues or call for some level of accountability, we have also been seen as maybe major critics of government enjoy, even sometimes the enemy of the state. I mean, we've recently seen a publication with a lot of facts, even though we're yet to hear any rebuttal on conflicts for Boko Haram. That's a different conversation for another day. That's from a journalist. Does it seem to you sometimes, as someone who's on the radio every day talking about these issues and asking for people's opinion, does it seem to you like maybe we're not doing enough or saying the right things so that Nigerians can really receive, for want of a better word, receive sense? You know, it seems, I mean, I know we're not doing enough. And I know, I'm sure you'd agree with me, that we need to do more. But we operate in a peculiar part of the world. You see this Pandora paper, papers that have come up with the investigation. You look at the number of media organizations that were involved. You look at the resources that were utilized by these media organizations to come up with this report and the cross border, cross national, cross continental effort it took. You look at our media organizations on the African continent and indeed in Nigeria. And you look at the resources that we have to do investigative journalism. I mean, this whole effort was put together by International Conservatory of Investigative Journalists, ICIJ. The media in Nigeria really is struggling as far as funds are concerned. And investigative journalism is not cheap. I mean, I get people calling into my radio program to give me information. And then the next thing they say, Mary, are you aware of this? Because we hosted a morning radio program for many years together. And they would say, oh, you are an investigative journalist. Go and investigate. And then I'll say, hey, excuse me, excuse me, hold on. You think it's free to investigate? You think I can just stand up and go? You know, people go to war zones and they have to, how many journalists have life insurance? How many journalists are working in organizations where they're basic Medicare via HMO is even guaranteed taking care of. So it is not cheap. We're not doing enough, but Nigerian journalists are doing the best they can. We should do more. But unfortunately, we're not able to do it. Guess what? We say that the law, and I hope the gentleman who is with you in the studio is a lawyer, my sincere respects and apologies to him. I do not mean to demean his profession. But they say the law is a hope of a common man. In Nigeria, the media is the hope of a common man because everybody has an issue they bring it to you, the journalists. The human rights abuse, they come to you. They've taken their land. They come to you. Someone stole from them. They come to you. They have a complaint to make to government. They come to you because those in authority are not accessible. And the nearest person they can think of is the radio house, the television station. So a lot needs to be done. But I think Nigerian journalists are doing the best they can. We are playing a critical role. The press, being the media, is I think basically the only organization or a professional body mentioned in the Nigerian constitution to hold the public office holders accountable, keep them accountable on behalf of the people. So we have a critical role to play. And we need to keep doing that within the scope of our resources. Okay. Mr Johnson, if you just helped you ask my last question, because my last question obviously was where's the place of the judiciary, the worst place of law, the law in this, knowing also that, you know, recently the judiciary has had a lot of question marks, you know, around it. And just as he said, it used to be the hope of a common man. Now we're not really sure if that's where we want to go. But let's see how you defend the judiciary and of course the law profession. The legal profession is still the hope of the common man. Unfortunately, with the state of the economy and the fact that governance is no longer being done for the benefit of the people, I make bold to say. Access to justice is very expensive now. Someone comes into your office, this happened to me, the police did this or that. You say, okay, we have to file. When you get to the federal high court, you have to pay. You understand? And then there are times where you have costs that run up and up and it becomes expensive for those who are indigent, for those who cannot afford to pay and do what they should do. So it becomes more difficult. But by and large, there was a judgment where the Supreme Court jurist said that the Constitution is the fountain from which all other laws flow. And that if there is mud in one part of that fountain, naturally it will flow all around. The situation in the country now is that corruption has become cancerous. It's at all spheres of government, society, schools, universities, churches, mosques, you name it. And the problem there is that when you have that, it is bound to seep into the judiciary. It's bound to seep even into the EFCC. So who checks the legislature, the executive? That's the problem. You see, those who are within the corridors of power, decision makers, I don't think they're up to 2% of this country. You understand? So in the people themselves do not realize that they're being changed because some people are cutting corners and are not law-abiding people, then it will continue. Unfortunately, those who are perpetrating these things are the people who we are looking to amend the laws or to implement the laws or to protect us. So we find ourselves in between a rock and a hard place, unfortunately. But on that note, I want to say thank you gentlemen, our whole coffee bar tales. Thank you very much for being part of the conversation. I appreciate it. All right, well, we'll take a short break and when we return, we will be discussing what's happening in the southeast. And of course, we advise the IROA group as for northern governments, as regards I-POP-Cities for Border Protection.