 In the last 12 months there have been impressive developments relating to public sector open source in the EU. There is without a doubt a new momentum behind open source in government. So let me introduce already on the floor James Lovegrove of Red Hat who is the session leader for our panel on European public sector innovation and open source. Take it away James and we'll get the other people on stage. Thank you Astor. Whilst folks are joining I'm going to welcome you all to the first panel discussion of OFE's annual EU open source policy summit and we've already got off to a flying start. Indeed, Commissioner Breton's strong support is keynote today on the importance of embedding open source quote in the public sector to make them more efficient and more resilient provides a great entree to this panel on that very topic. So that's European public sector innovation and open source. So I'm James Lovegrove, director for public policy at Red Hat and I have the pleasure to be the session leader of this really impressive panel. So I'm going to just introduce briefly who they are as they join, they're joined. So we have not yet Maria but we have, yes so we have Pierre Carga, director of the department for digital society in Germany's interior ministry, BMI. We have Mario Campalago, acting director general, DG Digit at the European Commission, Francesca Bria, president of the Italian Innovation Fund, CDP, and Rafael Laguna, CEO of Germany's agency destructive innovation sprint. And we will be joined later on by Maria de Fatima Fonseca, Portugal's state secretary for innovation and administrative modernization. So I think what we'll do is slightly read, adjust as Maria tackles the technical issues of joining. And we will go to actually the second speaker that we have in mind, Sivan is helping at once. Well done, thank you. So I think so let's go to you, Pierre, if I may. So I'd like to introduce you to a quite significant audience of passionate open source and also those who are finding out about open source for the first time. Pierre leads the director for digital society in the Ministry of Interior, which has an important change role function in the context of digital sovereignty for society. So Pierre is also a member of the Federal Board of CIOs, bringing together IT leaders from all major ministries in Germany, Defence, Labour, Finance, Health etc. So my question to you, Pierre, is open forces become an increasingly prominent topic in the German federal government. Can you describe why open source has garnered the attention of the highest levels of government and how you have embedded it in the strategies to tackle critical objectives for your ministry? Thank you, James. Thank you for the question. And of course, thank you for the invitation. It's a great honor to be here and to say a few words about our position. Well, open source software, of course, was on the agenda for years, but it changed during the last years due to some issues. We conducted a strategic market analysis in 2019 with a focus on software providers, especially for client software, which shows that the federal administration in Germany is heavily dependent on a very small number of IT providers. And to be honest, that was not really a surprise, but of course, the dependencies results in a number of pain points, some which we really see critical, for instance, when it comes to limited information security or when it comes to legal uncertainty. And in addition, there are some recent developments which increase the pressure for digital sovereignty in Germany and within the EU, I think, for instance, the increased demand for secure digital solutions during the pandemic. And of course, the ruling of the European Court of Justice on the invalidity of the privacy shield. And so digital sovereignty is crucial for maintaining control of our own IT. And therefore, the federal, the state, and the local governments in Germany have decided together to pursue a hybrid strategy to deal with that issues. On the one hand, we identify and develop alternative solutions, especially open source software solutions. And on the other hand, of course, we are still conducting intensive negotiations on the federal level with the main IT providers. And therefore, we prepare and enforce so-called red lines, which give clear requirements for technical providers and for their solutions. And it probably comes as no surprise that due to its open standards and interfaces, open source software is one of the key building blocks of our hybrid strategy towards digital sovereignty. And with that, we see three benefits. Open source software enables interoperability and thereby strengthen the ability of the public administration to switch between components, applications, and providers. It enhances our ability to shape our own independently IT, more independently as before, as the code can be easily reviewed, changed, and redistributed. And by promoting and using open source, the public administration can increase its influence on providers as a market power. And of course, nothing comes without challenges. In particular, we will need a strong commitment in terms of financial investment, but even more in terms of cultural issues and competencies. But that will, I think, lead to new opportunities by integrating innovative startups in our corporations and small and medium-sized enterprises, and also encourage efficient cooperation across all levels of the public administration. So far, the Federal Ministry of the Interior has already launched a number of different initiatives. For instance, we consider to found a center of digital sovereignty, and we conduct some open source-based proof of concepts, which are all designed to promote the use of open source within the public administration. And of course, we want to identify the European cooperation on such initiatives. For this purpose, we placed the goal of the digital sovereignty in the joint Berlin Declaration, which was signed during our last presidency of the EU Council. And I'm sure Portugal will continue this focus to strengthen digital sovereignty. Great. Thank you very much, Pierre. I see that Ria has, okay, we're finding a replacement from Ria. But let's move on to not quite the Portuguese government, but a fine Portuguese gentleman who is the Acting Director-General of Digit, Mr. Mario Compilago. Mario's DG is responsible for providing digital services for the Commission, as well as other EU institutions, plus helping public administrations in EU member states to collaborate, share, reuse, solve public sector challenges together. So my question to Mario, if I may, is given DG, Digit, Mathematics Mandate, can you share your assessment of progress? And given the several hundred folks in the audience today, virtual audience, open source colleagues, the ongoing open collaborative initiatives that you've been running, driving, leading, and what's to come in 2021. Thank you. Thanks very much, James, and hello to everybody. In fact, our president, Ursula van der Leyen, didn't give us a lot of choices because he promised to transform the commission into a digital commission. And recently, she called upon Europe to enter the digital decade. And what it is, what is it, a digital commission that has to be certainly an administration, hopefully a world-class administration that is open, entrusted and secure and connected and data-driven. And obviously, in this context, the word open appears first. I think that person, I would claim that openness to others and to the ideas of the others is probably behind the progress of humanity. And for Europe, I think that is an important value. And I'm referring, obviously, to the peer reference to the Berlin Declaration, that is to look to the public sector from the perspective of the European values. So here in Europe, obviously, we talk very often about open government, about open administrations and open data. What is there for the implication for an IT department, like digits, that on top of that believes to be a catalyzer for the transformation of the commission? Well, it means that we have to go along our own set digital strategy. In 2018, we committed, obviously, to put data at the center to use hybrid infrastructures to build our services upon reasonable components that themselves are to be developed in open source. But I think that what really we promised was that we would adopt a digital lifestyle based on open source. And in our digital strategy, you see certainly references to the encouragement of co-creation to the adoption of open source solutions. We call upon our and the IT community of the member states to tap into the growing potential of open source software, not just joining forces with the major commercial players, but also the open communities to try to develop the solutions that will be implementing the European policies of the future. Well, I must say as well that our software development teams for a long time have been already adopting working methods that are very much influenced, if not completely based on open source principles. But we decided to go further and we decided to complement the digital strategy with a newly formulated open source software strategy to cover the period 2020 to 2023, was actually subtitled is think open. It was adopted by the collage of commissioners in October this year and widely announced. In a nutshell, the strategy will make sure that the commission becomes even more involved in open source and in the past. That strategy has to reinforce internal working culture that is already largely based on the principles of open source, as I said, but because we are always in collaboration member states, the talent declaration, more recently the Berlin Declaration. And I know the Berlin Declaration is on digital society and value based digital government, very much value based European values, digital government and renew the way of linking government with citizens. And apart from all the aspects where they where the where this declaration focus on promoting for the mental rights, the democratic values, etc. There is one particular aspect that focus on digital sovereignty and interoperability. And there we see very easily common standards, modular architectures and the use of open source software in the public sector as facilitators and therefore a big encouragement. And yes, I think that we can see you colleagues in Red Hat and others see also that the public services throughout the European Union are actually more and more using open source. How can we find ways of supporting these open source communities? Well, first, the open the ISA Square program is an excellent example. In the track of sharing and reuse, we promote a lot of a lot of solutions that are open source. The European interoperability framework that is so fundamental for the interoperability between public services is very much based on open source. And if we don't have this interoperability framework, we will not be able to implement in the future principles like the one solely principle that are at the core of the delivery of pan-European services. So we have done this in the context of the ISA Square program. We will do this in the context that the digital euro program just announced, where we actually will broaden the support of public administrations, not just regarding interoperability, but also in the data spaces in the use of emerging new technologies like AI or data analytics. We also look not just to the top level public administration, but at the level of regions and city level. And here I think that I would like to mention that Chris, just in the previous presentation, referred to the Fiverr Foundation that is developing solutions for smart cities and other areas very much at the beginning supported by the European Commission research programs. So this is very important. And why? Because Europe decided on the recovery and resilience package. That is huge. And 20% of the next generation EU, 20% of the 1.8 trillion that is allocated to the member states has to be allocated for digital. So huge opportunities. But more than using, if you allow me still a minute, more than just using open source. I think that the Commission wanted through its strategy to be able to contribute to the developer communities. We have been always contributed to the free and open source software. See, for example, the work that we are doing in terms of Drupal and how much we have contributed to this with our competence center to this community. But what we want with a new strategy is actually to remove the legal barriers to make sure that we can not just use but share our software and allow our developers to contribute to these communities. Some of the software that we are developing through the ISA program or through the building blocks, like the EU survey or the interest tax. Or if I want to mention something very important, the LAOS program that is focused on the legislative domain in the production of legal tax. So important for us. Well, this is an interesting case because the development is actually initiated in the commission ranks. But today it transformed into a co-creation process where the public administrations in Spain and Germany are actually contributing. And we hope that in the future, more member states can join forces. So all in all James and colleagues, this new strategy makes more and more an encouragement for the use of open source. We will host open source labs in such a way that we can experiment and we can have a relation that is not just with the big organization, but also with the startups and almost individuals that are active in the open source communities. We have also created an Ospo and there will be a session later on that are interacting with Ospo in the member states and also at the United Nations level. So all of that is fantastic things that we are doing. And I think that we will encourage more in the future. One more second, if you allow me, just to refer that we have been working very much through the FOSI initiatives in creating ecotons to make sure that we would identify security vulnerabilities in open source solutions that were used by the commission. What we want to do in the future is not just to concentrate on the open source solution used by the commission, but used by other public administrations, as it is, for example, the case of metrics that is very much used in France and Germany and used by all of you in events like FOSDEM. Thank you. Great. Thank you, Marie. You mentioned 20% of 1.8 trillion. I think that moves us very neatly on to our next speaker, Mrs. Grier, who's the president of the CDP, which is Italy's promotional institution financing public investments. Francesca has also several advisory and academic roles, including honorary professorship at UCL, as well as advisor to the EUN and the EU on innovation. Italy, Francesca, very much in the news these days, in your role as effectively a public investment bank, how is the Italian innovation fund leveraging public-private partnership within the open source community? And indeed, how will billions of euros of EU recovery from Samaria's point fund use of such technologies develop a true and open democracy again, a point that was made by Pierre early in terms of digital sovereignty and independence. Thank you. Thank you very much, James, and it is an absolute pleasure to be in this panel, in particular, with such great speakers like Pia Mario and Gaffa, which are also leaders driving forward this kind of transformation in Europe. So I really think that Europe has now in a post-pandemic times, but in particular with the EU next generation framework program, an opportunity to build a 21st century digital economy that also put forward a European digital industrial policy. Because obviously it becomes very clear now for Europe that we cannot not only be this digital EU digital regulatory superpower, but we also have to repeat on technological innovation globally, but we can do it on our own terms, which means putting forward our own model for digital sovereignty. And during the pandemic we saw very clearly, as it was said before, that digital infrastructures, connectivity, data, AI, and so on, but also platforms became critical infrastructure underpinning services such as healthcare, education, mobility, smart working, so critical services, which because we have speed up digitalization. We have 400 billion, more or less, that are going to be invested in sustainable digitization through the next generation EU program, but also through the digital EU program and Horizon Europe and so on. So this is a great opportunity, but we also saw we are very much dependent and reliant on the digital platforms that are mainly US or China based. So this is where I think the technological sovereignty of Europe become very important. And we have the courage to see our model. We cannot copy the US or China innovation with these massive high-tech rent structures and manipulators of data. We need our own model. And I think the EU regulation is moving in the right direction, focusing on open source technology markets, on data portability and data sharing, standards and protocols, and restraining also gatekeepers with antitrust and competition policies. But I think as this is now my role, exactly as you said, as president of the Italian Innovation Fund and Rafa has a similar role in Germany. So we'll talk about that. EU should also make it easier for tech innovators to scale up at pan-European and European digital champions, which I think open source and open source ecosystem and open source industry is going to be critical to do that. Because of course, on one side, we need the missing capital. So we need not only these large-scale public investments that are going to go in critical infrastructures to take back all connectivity data software microprocessors and 5G. But we also need a EU-wide market in risk-taking equity and venture capital. At the moment, there is also the European Innovation Council that has set up a venture capital fund. So of course, the Italian National Innovation Fund, 1.5 billion euros fund will work together with the European Innovation Council to boost this kind of ecosystem. And of course, we need a fully functioning single market and pan-EU regulatory teams, because this is what makes solution scalable. So I think we also need an organizational breakthrough. Innovation is possible. So I hope that this kind of organization, the Foundation for Disruptive Innovation in Germany, the France, the Italian National Innovation Fund together with the European Innovation Council will work more and more together to boost this ecosystem in Europe. Let me say that I think that also open source is key to boost demand for native tech products, which are suited to European conditions and preferences through standard setting. So open standard setting, of course, also subsidies and public procurement. So this was said in the conversation very much before. I think that privacy-friendly standard source dates up to public procurement contract. I've done that when I was a city of Barcelona where we shift this 70% of IT budget to open sustainability, privacy ethics and security by design, interoperability and open standards. So this is possible to do through public procurement. And also the EU in this way can lower the body through entry, because we need to get on board this small and medium-sized entrepreneur, the startups, the small businesses, the developer communities, which are absolutely driving this ecosystem. Because otherwise there's vendor locking and the money will flow into the giant companies, into the big consultancies and miss the opportunity for a genuine development, economic development policy, because 80% of our economy is actually SMEs and startups. So we need to foster that ecosystem and we can do that also through public investment and public procurement, building technology that has fundamental rights at this core and that foster collaboration, transparency and democracy. Let me just say also that what the commissioner said at the beginning of this conference, that open source transparency and accountability is going to be key for the AI, artificial intelligence world, because we want accountability of algorithms. We want to make sure that there is ethics and security and policy by design, also in the way that automated decisions systems are run throughout society. So this is a particularly important point. And I think that we can also foster, as Mario Campo Largo's team is doing, public options for open source application, platforms and technology that can effectively create marketplaces across Europe, in smart city services, in healthcare, in citizens participation. Also, this is one point we have developed in Barcelona, a large-scale open source platform for citizen engagement. It's called Decidim, but now the commission is going to use this technology, scaling it up from a community and city level at the panel level to engage citizens in participating to build the European Green Deal and the next generation EU policies. This is a great example on how you can reuse, scale, audit the software and learn from each other. And these solutions at the local scale can become pan-European and can grow. So I think you're pressing your chat function is going wild with lots of thumbs up and claps for you. So you have a lot of support in the chat function of this conference. If I could just, now that I see, Maria has joined us. So well done, Maria, to back your way through the technical challenges. It's really wonderful to have you join us and actually it's perfect timing. So we, before I go into perhaps ask you a question, just perhaps a little bit of your perspective on who you are. So you're the Secretary of State for Innovation and Administrative Modernization. You're a long-standing public servant at Municipal City and now government level in Portugal. If I say impressive track record in restructuring and modernization in the public sector, co-author of books, articles, tackling, representing governance, innovation and technologies needed to drive that kind of modernization. So it's still very right to you about if you could elaborate a little bit more about how Portugal transformation and how that's relevant for the broader EU recovery fits in very nicely with what Francesca has just been mentioning about the power of public sector as a kind of demand tool. And like Rafael after you, we can go to that kind of disruptive cyclical side that we'd like to hear more about. And also ways to give your expertise, Maria, with regards to sort of the governance and cultural sides of innovation. How do you see open source in Commissioner Bretton's words, actually, making the public sector more efficient and resilient? So the floor is yours, Maria. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry, I'm a little bit late and I'm very sorry to have missed the first interventions. Good morning to all my session colleagues. How are you? Francesca, Mario, Pia and Rafael. I hope I can learn a lot from you because we share all the same perspectives, I believe. We're on purpose. And I'd just like to highlight our vision, our Portuguese vision, our common vision actually, on the cultural and organizational aspects of the deep transformation of public sector that has been going on for a few years now. Very, very simple things. I think even before this pandemic crisis, most governments all over the world were realizing that it takes a comprehensive and more digital approach to accomplish all our missions. So the pandemic just highlighted the potential of the digital transformation to provide better services and also to be able to deliver more integrated policies. And this is very relevant. In Portugal, we have a couple of strategy documents which give us a clear view of a strategic roadmap to transform public services. And the innovation strategy is built around four great building blocks. The first is investing in people. So we can empower people by developing their skills. And I'm speaking, I'm talking about the skills of public workers to begin with. The second one is to develop management through the principles of simplification and innovation and collaborative work so that data and knowledge cross all the functional silos that we already know that exist. The third pillar is to explore the technology, of course. We are ensuring global technology governance, improving interoperability and service integration and managing the data ecosystem safely and transparently. And these keywords, each and every one of us, I'm sure, will repeat a lot during the discussion. We want to manage the data ecosystem, as I said, safely and transparently, promoting the reuse of data to make better and faster decisions and to provide new, seamless and digital services as well as more open and high value datasets. So the fourth to do this, the fourth and final pillar is proximity because we believe that to perform better and to achieve better results, we need to include all the people at all government levels in the decision making process. So naturally, with this vision, the Portuguese recovery and resilience plan and also the Portuguese priorities for the presidency of the council show this clear vision around this transformational purpose. Well, to achieve these goals, I must say that we are deeply committed to collaboration as a key driver to innovation and all sorts of collaboration, collaboration with citizens and businesses, of course, but also collaboration between public sector organization and of course, collaboration among our countries so that we can tackle the challenge that Mario always speaks about to provide better and seamless services across borders. And this is a huge commitment from Portugal. And why am I stressing this? And I'll just finish after saying this, because when we talk about open, we are necessarily talking about collaboration, all sorts of collaboration, and the choices, the political and organizational choices to foster collaboration. And this is the role of public policy. And I'm not a technology person. I'm a public policy thinker and a public policy maker. So this is my main concern, the role of public policy to set the scene in which we make collective choices and to organize the debate to make clear what are the values that we are choosing from and to take action aligning all the necessary partners. So I'm hoping to learn a lot in this session and quite curious to hear about your perspective on how open can stimulate this national data ecosystem with open data and privacy assurance and digital identity, all domains in which we intend to drive a big transformation. So there are a little bit of game changers that have been arising in the few in this last decade, mainly in this last decade. We know about open software for a long time. We use open source operating systems and open source software, all sorts of open source software, perhaps not enough, but we are committed to drive this transformation also. But one of the game changers I think is data science and artificial intelligence. So what does it mean to be open when it comes to software systems that are heavily based on AI, for instance? This is something we are still asking ourselves and we hope to learn with you also about this. So as I said before, with the support of this European Recovery and Brazilians facility, we are expecting to develop a new ecosystem of digital services with interoperability in the back, being user friendly in the front, and being more intelligent, I think, all over the place. So open will have to be a big principle that we must foster and drive with the meaning that perhaps we have to revisit and reinforce. Thank you. There was eye opening, inspirational as well. There's a lot to do and we need to do it together. What I'd like to do is move to our final speaker and actually come back to you, Maria, if we have time on one of the points you mentioned. So our final speaker is Rafael Laguna, CEO of the German Agency for Disruptive Innovation, Sprint. There was a lot about this transformative power, a long time advocate campaign of open source founder and now at Sprint, looking for ways to catch up, but also leapfrog with open. So Rafael, maybe you can tell us a bit more about the power of open source to leapfrog and where are we in that curve and what are the levers to pull and is the funding enough and all sufficiently focused? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, James. Obviously, open source is the European way for everything digital. Technology has phases. I like to refer to and compare to cars, for example, and when they were invented, they were very dirty. They didn't care much about what they did to the environment. They were very expensive, but they did something that people wanted. So the cars were successful. So every technology has this dirty early phase and then you get into a phase of optimization. People make them better, but still they're stinkers. They just go faster and things like that. And then some disruption happens and then hopefully the technology will become clean. I think the same is going on in everything digital. I think we are in a very dirty phase of digital products and you see that with the data leakage that we've got, you see that with what social media has done to democracies. And I think in a way, two things come together which are very favorable for Europe. One is that obviously we need this disruption and this clean phase of digital products, which resonate very well with our values and also what drives the public sector, which was invented when we invented things like science, which helped us to find a process to how to find truth and how to define them, which was based on openness. Science is based on sharing, on open data, on sharing the tools and showing it to the world for everybody to repeat and build on top of what was found during the process. So that is at the core of our values, our constitutions. This is what created our democracies. And now taking these values into our digital products will carry our culture forward. If we don't, our culture probably will die because it's not embedded into those products. Maria mentioned AI. AI is based on data that we provide. So all the bias that's in our data will also be in the artificial intelligence that we produce. So they must be very transparent in what they do so that we can use the tools of democracy that we've traded for us people also in our digital products. But it's also an economical benefit. This is sort of made in Europe 2.0 for digital products, I think will be well received in the world. It's not just Europeans that like these values. It's everybody in the world. Everybody wants to get time to think about these things. Once the basic needs are taken care of, you want that type of freedom and you want that type of control over your own faith. So actually, I think digital products based on European values made in Europe will be very well received in the world. Now, in a way, a sign that Francesca and I got the business of launching the innovation agencies in our countries as open source people is kind of a sign. This cannot be an accident. So I take that very seriously because obviously, there are lots of innovations that may not have to do too much with open source, but there are very few innovations that have nothing to do with anything digital in the process. And that part should be open source. Now, public sector should, of course, lead. We're spending public money. And if we're spending public money, we should create public code that everybody can use. But also it's a very practical means, by the way, of creating such tools. In Germany, we have tens of thousands of applications that implement the government processes on a local sector, on a state sector, on the federal level, now with lots and lots and lots of duplication. Of course, open source the way we develop software and the way we collaborate is also a way to have less duplication and to put more effort into one core. So instead of having tens of thousands, let's have a few hundred because we don't have that much more processes, we're just duplicating all the time. Make them available to everyone. And by the way, one project in PS department is to create this central collaboration point for German government IT, sort of a government GitHub, if you like. Of course, you don't want that on the real GitHub. You want your own, you want control over that. And you want to expose what's there to evolve that. But there's also a lot of disruptive potential. You've heard of GAIAX. My agency funded one of the sub-projects called Suburban Cloud Stack, which is building an infrastructure and platform stack based, made out of the open source tools that we all know, to create something that everybody can easily use to fire up infrastructure and platform services. Because if the foundation of our house is not open, our house won't be, right? You cannot build this on Azure or AWS or anything like that. So actual government money is also flowing into efforts to create sort of the central tools that everybody needs. And we need much more of this. I mean, there's lots of people here that have spent their lives building open office tools or collaboration tools and what have you. I think we should do much, much more with government money to fund these things. And I will do a lot with my agency, and I'm sure Francesca will as well, so that finally these things are well funded and have a good foundation for themselves to build this sort of open, federated and permissionless free Europe infrastructure and ecosystem that we all want to see, I guess. Thank you, Rafaela. And I think Francesca made an interesting point around the European Innovation Council and the extent to which these various agencies are collaborating in an open way and how to then find those synergies. I think that's very compelling. And then the regulatory reference of public government pulling through technology is also very important. You know, there's the March Council coming up. Why not have some kind of reference in there, which makes that happen. Time is not on our side, I'm afraid. So I'm conscious of time. I'm fearing that Astor is going to be looming into site very soon, but I will ask one more question or two more questions, one from the chat. Rafaela, what's on your shirt? Well, people want to know. You're not going to get this song out of your head all day, I promise. We know what's your honest disruptive innovation. That's a German term. You know, we Germans like to make these long words, right? Disruptive is not really what they are. You know, you're leapfrogging stuff, right? This is why we decided to put the German word on here to make it international. On the gender gap, on the gender gap, which I think it's an important point to make, because here, three women leading innovation in Europe, I think it's going to be, I mean, we have a commissioner also leading innovation here with a woman. I mean, we need to be more and more aware that we need to not only democratize, but put women at the very core of this innovation revolution in Europe. That's a very, very good point. And it's something which, again, because of the timing, and as Astor has mentioned earlier, we're just touching the sort of the tip, as it were, of all these issues, which are absolutely vital to properly tease the pardon and understand and then get right. So there he is. He's loomed into sight, but I will just ask one final closing question to Maria and to Pierre, if I'm allowed. Given that there was reference to the Berlin Declaration, which was signed off, December, then the upcoming Lisbon Declaration, just be interested, maybe a sentence, a few words from both of you, on the extent to which they are going to be reflecting and further enhancing what we all take for granted, I think on this summit, at least most of us, but reflecting that more into these kinds of guidance materials and creating the additional comfort with the extent to the power of open source. So Maria, Pierre, maybe you can go, maybe Pierre, go first and then Maria to close. I mean, that's the way of going, Pierre. Okay, thank you. I try to be short. So we did this Berlin Declaration, which is called a value-based declaration on digital government and not on technology aspects. And that's the main focus we put on the subject. And I think that's the main focus, why we should use the open principles, open standards, open source, open values, or whatever you want to call it. And I would like to address that. You have the final word then back to Astor. Okay, just building on what Pierre just said. Well, I can't unveil much about the Lisbon Declaration. This declaration is being prepared by my colleague from Digital Transition, André Asvedou. He will have the chance shortly to share a little bit more of detail on the declaration. But I'd like to take to highlight what Pierre just said and to say just this. I think there is a lot of consensus on the principles that are evident in the Lisbon, in the Berlin Declaration. There's a lot of consensus. So I think the next step will be to take action to pursue these principles. And we must agree that common values are central. And the open issue is fundamental. And why is open so important? Open isn't just about technology. Open goals of transparency and trust are all over our societies, are really a building block of our societies. For trust in automated systems, we need open and auditable software and algorithms. But for trust in administration, we also need open data and processes. And for trust in democracy, we will need more open participation from our citizens. So we all want the same things. We all share the same values. I think what we need is to be more focused on action and action that will express the real meaning of these values in our daily practice. So what are some of the aspects of the Lisbon Declaration? And I can say this with no state secret. I think we need to invest in providing full digital literacy to our citizens. And this doesn't mean only to know how to use technology, but to understand how far we want to go using technology. And on the other hand, shared ethical values and their legal framework as a common guide for at least government practitioners and also digital developers. So these are some of the building blocks of the Lisbon Declaration because ethics has real value, not only economic value, but social value. And we must never forget this. Thank you. Thank you very much. And I think closing on that point, as you say, open ensures that, I think you put it much more articulate than I have, it's that open shows that public value is built on values of the citizen. I think that's a very, very powerful way of looking at it. So please accept our apologies. We're slightly running late. And thank you all on the panel for a fantastic insight on open source public sector in Europe and what we can expect in 2021. So big, big thank you and back to you Astor.