 Hello and welcome to the NewsClick studios in New Delhi. I am Siddhantaani and with me as always is Leslie Xavier. We're talking about sport and slightly serious but not surprising situation It seems that English cricket is institutionally racist Why Leslie are we not surprised by this little revelation that has come from actually quite an emotional sort of outpouring of sentiment of I guess experience. Yeah That this cricketer has gone through. I seem Rafiq we are talking about and Apparently one of the most talented cricketers of the generation in the English system had tremendous faith on him He was the under 19th skipper. He skippered a lot of star players who are now Joe Root included and then somehow his career With the club Yorkshire it it More or less bordered on I mean he was playing well, but it just didn't take off the way it was expected and then now we have come to know that he was suffering there on various levels and Racism being what he has alleged and Institutional racism that too. So it is a larger problem when you look at it because he's is blamed the club and the entire setup of the club of racism and See previous quite strong testimony actually made in front of a standing committee Parliament so and he has been outspoken in the media also. In fact, it first came out in 2020 In an interview and then over the course of the last two years. He has been speaking on various at various platforms and Presenting his case and presenting and fighting his case. He's fighting for a larger cause He says because it's it's very clear that is I mean when you look at his career is is not standing to gain anything in the cricket sense of it is fighting for a larger cause here is fighting for the future of Asian cricketers and black cricketers in in England and you mentioned that English cricket But I would probably refrain from putting a blanket blame on English cricket because England and Wales cricket board I have come forward and banned Yorkshire from staging any international matches. So it is very clear that they are trying to manage manage the manage the situation and Also, they are acting in tune with what is the general trend in which Administrative body should act in in case of such situations because the world has moved on from where Yorkshire is clearly stuck and Actually, not so much because like as our friend Weber Bevanandan was saying Across the road from Yorkshire County where this cricket is happening is Leeds United. Yeah, where Culture of inclusion and participation and Widening the scope. Yeah is very much in play. So It's not about us. I think a single place. Yeah, I think I Mean I you are saying that you will not give that blanket sort of Comment comment on English on English cricket But I think my take on this is pretty much that it is institutional and particularly because I'm coming from a background also of Football where South Asian people particularly Actually, no, not just South Asian people but where racism is deeply sort of entrenched in the system So back in 2018 when the World Cup was on the last World Cup I was having a conversation with some people including some former. I think Michael Chopra was one of the first South Asian origin players to play at a premier division club Premier League club and He had a different understanding of it But several others that I did speak to said that how coaches approach things is pretty clear-cut First they look at the black kids Because that's the stereotype, right physically, etc, etc then they look at the white kids and then comes everyone else and I think it's one of the consequences of this Idea of how people play a sport or approach a sport that has led to the fact that there are almost none No, South Asians despite the fact that they are large population I suppose a large minority in the United Kingdom They are not Represented they are represented in Parliament. They are represented in business. They are represented in film But they are not represented in sport and cricket was supposed to be an exception because where do you go when you need a spinner? Yeah So, yeah, so exactly so football's dynamic is Like you said, there are a certain level of stereotype and all stereotyping happening as far as races and kids and the potential of those kids to reach other I love the coaches are going by that but I'm also not 100% sure whether they are very Subjective about it because as far as a coach in an institution or a junior program in a club is concerned They would have their set parameters and they would measure the players by that you can't stop a talented player from going up And as far as I see and I have had discussions of of generally Asian or black players coming into various sport including motorsport and surprisingly and from from journalists from Africa and all that they In fact, I wrote a story about Luis Hamilton and how Formula one or generally motorsport in general is not open towards accepting black drivers or they just don't come up at all and They said that's maybe it's because simply we are not interested in motorsport And it's not their culturally we play basketball. We play football. We play Soccer football or pro football American football and many other game which which the black people are strong, but then they I'm sure many tennis players are there who just don't reach up and whether it's it's systemic or whether it's Genetic factor these are larger larger questions, but as far as cricket is concerned when Asian players are known to be great and when Discrimination or racism happen then it's a it's a it's a larger problem. It's it's beyond sport dynamics So in that way, this is more sinister than what happens in the football playing ground at a junior level and I didn't Try to negate the fact that it's institutional, but we are talking about a specific club here So I I was unsure whether we should blame the English and Wales cricket board or the cricket establishment in general in in England for racism Because I feel that there are many institutions like you mentioned leads across and Who have who have tried to get rid of that baggage and successfully so to so Changes happening, but Yorkshire is stuck somewhere and Yorkshire is stuck so much that they are Unwilling to make those changes. That's why a spate of resignations have happened in the last two weeks or so Club officials have resigned I mean protesting against the club stand Joe Root has come out in in with the statement And he feels that it has shaken English cricket as a whole and so because it's You are looking at a sport which is displaying solidarity towards Black Lives Matter movement at the IS stage possible and then you are looking at the sports the the games traditional home and And These things happen over there. So that's that's I mean, maybe in the in the in the coming days we will see ICC also stepping in and Looking at it into a as a very serious Matter that needs to be resolved and not just an internal problem of the club or of the country because this is a larger Problem which may shake the growth of cricket into newer markets into the US that that we are talking about Yeah, no fair enough and that I have to say that like it's Extremely important and valuable that these conversations are happening. Yeah that parliament has taken cognizance of it that he's Gone there and made a statement where he's unequivocally stating what he has been through and Of course, that's bound to result in some kind of change Hopefully, that's a state of the society in general in In England I'm a reckoning society and the political state of being of the country Whatever the shortcomings are These kind of discussions will never happen in India. It's not happening in India Which is which is unfortunate because India's problem is different. Yeah, and So we are talking about a state team where where there were allegations of two words a player of us in jaffas stature and We have MPs who are heading the board Politicians who are on top of all the I mean politicians across parties. Yeah, it's not like the ruling party Politicians are there at the helm. Yeah, it's not like one sort of It's like and they cover the ranks. It's not like that So Anybody could have stood up and said this and brought up brought this out as a topic of discussion at the parliament or at At a larger level on a larger scale never happened so So I would I'm happy in that sense that there are things that happen The happening measures have been taken and over the course of the next two I mean a couple of months. We'll see where it will head and as far as As seems Statements are concerned recently you feel that and already it has happened many players would come in many players who have suffered and they this would become a larger Issue where I mean things will cascade into a larger movement that would clean cricket England cricket to start with and Let's see if it's if it has its impacts on the rest of the world Huh rest of the world or not But at least I think it's bound to have some kind of positive impact on English cricket for sure and the other thing I would want to see is probably some positive change happening in South Africa. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely We've had we talked about I think on the show Yeah Quintin de Cork and that whole episode and and there is other things that are involved and hopefully we'll get into that So you was one. Yeah Yeah, all right So I think that pretty much Takes care of that part of the show for us today What are we moving on to next? Having his first assignment as officially as the main I mean the permanent captain of of the India T20 team and First assignment, so I believe that you are a big This Because this is at the helm of all three teams, so yeah, you would have a larger say for the hopefully for the next few years Yeah, I think in my mind Anil Kumble was the most underrated captain that we've ever had or maybe ever is a sort of strong word to use But all David fine cricketing brain reasonably well-regarded human being Respected I think across What do you think he's going to bring after the Ravi Shastri era, which has been quite Lots of talking points, but also quite successful for Indian Shastri was managing Because he when he got into the helm of of the Indian cricket team He didn't have a stake in the in the Future bunch But I will rabbit comes with that stake because he has been the junior team Coach for a while. He has worked in the NCAA for a while with these players So a lot of youngsters including ones in the team some of them in the team. They're all They're all at stints under Robert at various times and they all have come out and said Things in the media about how approachable he is about a lot of things. So Is a statesman So he comes in as a different personality you mentioned kumble so kumble stint as a coach is is Should be mentioned now because he was He took charge of as a as coach and then they wish Astri took over and Circumstances which which were not so great and there was a power struggle between him and the skipper So a different personality and kumble a great cricketing mind, but probably not as not a great statesman as as Raul rabbit So that is that is one major difference I see between these two and that is what probably David will bring into the table because he has to do a lot of Managing here because you are looking at I mean, I'm announcing it a little early But earlier but as as as it is in sport the transition has to be pre Planned for and in a couple of years the Indian team's transition to the next generation will be in full force and That's the main thing that I have a problem with Roe Sharma will get into that as skipper will get into that in a bit but sticking to draw it so his first press conference happened yesterday and And I'm glad that he's not just talking about the CDs ahead which is against New Zealand We have three different matches and then the two test matches, which is a good series to watch out for because test final, yeah, yeah, so there is I'm sure there will be a lot of advertisement Saying payback and all those things, but let's see how that that will plan out so David has said about players importance of players needing to be rested and Especially considering the situation of bubbles and how fatty So he's probably hinting at World Cup typical and maybe something of that was in play yes, also Categorically denied the fact that you will have three separate teams for the for the three formats That is that is again a logical thing because we have players overlapping in all three segments You can't for instance replace a boomer just because he's a great baller In the death hours in T20, but he's also a great baller test baller. He's India's best at this point So so that kind of overlap happens So it's pretty practical about that aspect, but at the same time he is also Mentioning a kind of a approach change a philosophy change as far as T20 format But I guess he would be looking at all three formats, right? Well, he doesn't want to follow a team's template any team for that matter He wants to create a strictly Indian template and he also understands the fact that Players who perform at IPL or side most accurately They needn't translate that into the international stage playing the same role because in the Indian team setup The roles might be defined differently. Yeah, so all these ideas he has in mind and Roy Sharma as I mean in that discussion in that press conference Roy Sharma has also Shown signs that he is on the same page on the same with Rahul Dravid. So I guess at the start like you Using cricketing cliche the partnership looks promising. They're middling the ball It's all I mean discussions and talk though So let's see so we can't judge them by by the series either We'll have to judge them over the course of the next next. That's why I'm keen that Dravid sticks to a larger Period so also larger plan larger plan and and then see so larger plan might include certain shaking up of Of the seniors as well. So but yeah, that's that's so that's that's what I'm looking at and yeah Getting into Rohit Sharma's captaincy again. I mean if it's I feel that it's it's a little too late for him to become the Indian skipper and BCCA and Rahul Dravid and him Obviously should sit around in I mean in the first place. He shouldn't have been appointed as keeper because if you are forward-looking then I would want a Younger talented talented as in talented leadership quality wise player to have that kind of a say But yeah, I believe you have a different take on that. Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah Anyone who waits a double hundred like that. I mean like there's no even if it's for one game one series, whatever it is I think a chance at captaining India and also I have slightly different opinions on what Team captaincy means in this context maybe because I come from a football background And so I have no understanding of it and it may be an absolutely irrelevant perspective But I do wish him very well. I don't want to get more into it because like it's really quite a subjective issue It is a subject issue and I think that while I Take your point about transitioning from younger players to older players or older players to younger players and a generational shift and all of that But I think Rohit has this sort of innate It's not ability, but it's personality To relate to both sides Without being so in your face that it's all about him. Yeah So I think in terms of the dressing room. I think that will have some kind of positive impact, I hope at least and Yeah, I don't know how long it'll last and we'll see about all of those things I think it's time that like someone who is not a batting cricketer Assumes the captaincy and leadership role in the team. I Always been an advocate of this But across world cricket, it's it's a different trend So Again coming back to football You see many goalkeepers that are captains. You see many full backs that are captains or center backs You see Some midfielders that are captains. There's hardly ever striker except our captain leader legend Who is captain leader legend? Playing that role, right and there's a reason for it. Yeah If you were at that end of the pitch So very different sport so perhaps not pertinent to make so many comparisons But I do think that like the this batting heavy approach or batting centric approach needs to change and that's why I also said Kumbhle as captain and coach and all those things We'll see for much legendary captain of India. He was a wicketkeeper first and a batter second and wicketkeeper It's like the goalkeeper. You get the entire perspective. So that that advantage we saw on on the playing field But an intelligent wicketkeeper. That's key. So I believe it's David also Kept yeah kept yeah, so I believe in that that it should be the player and his ability as a leader That should be the criteria and not not what batting or bowling or whatever But yeah, they are missed out on like for instance, Australia missed out on their best ever Possibly their best ever skipper, which was Shane one because of disciplinary problems But yeah, so and he has shown time and again the game intelligence that he possesses While playing under various captains. So and I agree completely with your personality thing remark on Roe Sharma He asked that I mean I mean He Gets everybody to be at ease. Yeah, which was not the case all the time with Virat Kohli. Yeah, so so Again two different styles of captains is Yeah, things to also look forward to where for us at least as relative outsiders Yeah, in this whole game But okay, finally then we're talking about boxing boxing which we did on the last show as well But things have changed since I changed and things have changed. We can fast and I just Can't believe that we were expecting the boxing Federation of India to accommodate Maricom But it seems God himself boxing gods are involved in this is as well. So and cobit-19 so air BS the world championship that was supposed to happen in the first week of December in Turkey to By three months for now because Turkey the covid situation is a little worse 25,000 cases per day as we speak. So That has opened up the selection Dynamic scenario National championship happened last month. So obviously in a sport like boxing you can't go by that selection that bunch For a tournament that is happening four months five months later. Anything can happen injuries form So it's only fair that there should be a selection trial and that means Maricom would be fighting the trials for sure and Also the younger. Yeah, yeah, the young boxer who wanted to have a fight with Lavelina She may also get Get a shot at that because again Lavelina's Olympic medal would have become old by then though we tend to Celebrate Olympic medals for eternity, but but realistically speaking there should be a trial and and Yeah, and I agree with that, but there should be a trial no doubt and for me like Lavelina is one of the finest boxes I have seen coming out of the Indian Set up in a while. I mean and I'm including guys like Amit Vikas all of these guys who I don't want to go into vijinder and like back into the old stuff but but really fine-looking boxer with great footwork and perhaps She needs to do some work. Yeah She I think her body movement and and her head movement and things need to improve quite a bit So perhaps some of these trials and these competitions will also do good for her. Yeah, of course it does as The more the competition the better and also Lavelina. I mean she won a medal, but if you look at She becoming a world champion or Olympic champion. That should be the next target for her as well, right? So She lacked I mean she lost against it tremendously powerful Turkish boxer and she lost physically Yeah This she tried to fight. So that aspect has to be developed power in our in our game And otherwise she has shown science that she is an intelligent boxer. She can change tactically Mid-bought even so she has tried that she has tried as in the losing course also at the Olympic game so The more the fight happens the better and it the same thing with Mary come if at all and biased system is in Place for the trials then it's perfect for Indian boxing you need a senior pro Who is as widely as they come with all those experience and push the youngsters and if the youngster can't beat her? by boxing then So that's what I used to talk about Any of the senior pros that that that we're lingering on like if the youngster can challenge them then That's that's poor for the sport That's your problem as well. Yeah, but it has not always been unbiased as you know boxing's judging is pretty Subjective is the is a very diplomatic So but yeah, that's the scenario so it's an update so last time we discussed quite a bit about it And we had promised the viewers that we will give an update on this thing. So it's pretty clear cut now There's no games involved. Yeah, there'll be a selection trial whenever that is scheduled to happen depending on the world championship Did you all obviously go on for another couple of hours on just how? Boxing at least at the amateur level is ranked and who wins and who loses, but we won't If he's getting a pro boxing then that's a whole other game all together But I'll do it for us from Leslie and me. Thank you very much for watching you've been watching play things of alien forces This is news click you can check out all of our stories on news click in follow us on all the social media channels And we'll be back again. Hopefully at a appointed slot next time this week. Thank you for watching. Goodbye