 I don't know about you, but if you hear that, that intro and you don't get excited, it's just because you wouldn't raise right. Something's wrong with you and you just need a little bit more of the Holy Ghost. Maybe you need to read your Bible more, but that should get you moving. Anyway, hope you all are doing well. Hope you all had a wonderful day, a wonderful week thus far. We want to, I want to bring on my guest in just a second, Brother Damon Richardson, and I wanted to have him on for some time. And so if you all remember about two weeks ago, maybe a week, two, I think two weeks ago when I had brought Marcus Rogers on and we were having a conversation. There were a lot of different, when I say a lot, a lot of people on YouTube who had either reached out or had made a comment and so forth and maybe might have been confused as to what in the world are you doing, Cory? You just called this man a liar, a fraud, a heretic and all this. And now he's here and you didn't bring that same energy. And that was a reason why. And so one of the people that also made a comment was Damon and he and I had a conversation, wonderful conversation. And so before we get into the point and purpose of this, the reason why I was here is we're going to talk about what do you do? How do you deal with people who you know are giving false teachings? Whether they be a heretic or they're just giving heretical statements, whether they be a false teacher or they're giving false teachings, how do you deal with them? What is the approach at one we would use? What you would use? Is there a difference in approach that should be taken and so forth? And so I want to introduce his brother. His brother is well educated. As a matter of fact, I believe he tells me that he's getting, he's finishing up on his, finishing up writing his doctoral dissertation. And so without further ado, I want to bring my brother Damon Richardson. Damon, how are you doing, brother? Hey, doing good. My brother, how are you? I am wonderful. I am on top of things. Listen, what's funny is Damon's got all the books behind him and I said, you know, I don't want to put all those books behind him. I moved my office and changed everything. And now I bring him on and he just looks smarter than me. So, but anyway, I'm doing wonderful. I'm actually trying to get away from this kind of background. I don't want people to think I'm a nerd. It didn't run with it. It didn't run with it. But for the folks that don't know enough about you, tell them one, by the way, Damon, Damon, yeah, Damon's got hair. We're not going to hold that against him. But Damon, Damon, you're on your YouTube channel. What about once, once every quarter now, once, once every six months? Man, I'm going to start back, man. I was on there at one point, a couple, every other day or and then it went down to once a week and and then once every two weeks. Now, I try to get back to it though, man. But I, Urban Logia is the name of the channel. It's also the name of the website, URBAN Logia, like the word Lagos. But we, you know, we, we essentially exist to, to help people contextualize the word of God to essentially fill in four buckets. I would say biblical studies, church history, I would say theology, as well as apologetics. And so we were just trying to make theological education and learning more about scripture more accessible and contextualized to believers in the urban context. So that's what we do. One of the things is, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but one of the things that that when I first saw Damon, and that might be a few things that we, that we might disagree with most for the most part, we agree on things. But what really made me stand up and notice him, not even, I don't even remember what the particular topic was, but the fact that the books behind him aren't just for show. I like now, I don't want to be, you know, I don't want to, you know, lean anything one way or the other racial wise or whatever, but let's just be honest. Can we just, can we, can we tell the truth? Shame on devil. A lot of folks that tend to be our hue for you, for you folks, for you Dallas Cowboy fans, that's color, that's tint. By the way, by the way, Damon is a Dallas Cowboy fan, so I'll do my best to be in my best favor. But look at that, look at that. Listen, that's the only, that's the only good ball. That's the only ball would have, you know what, I'm stopping, stopping Corey. Stop it. I will not do that. I will not do that. But what, what peaked my interest is his desire to go to the word. He's not about your feelings and so forth, but as it relates to different doctrine issues, he is going to go to the word. And so for me that, hey, listen, we don't have enough people who are black who are doing that. And so that just, okay, good, good, good. And I want to see more. And obviously we want to see more irrespective of the person's color. But again, to tell the truth, shame and devil, we could do, we could do better in our own little racial camp. Amen. So that's what kind of, kind of turned me on to him internally. You know what, let me just listen to this brother. And so I think his, he's solid, even if there's, if there's ever, I can't think of anything that I have disagreed with you doctrinally. But again, the one thing that stood out and pressed me was the fact that he goes to the word. And Damon, if you ever talk to him about the Bible, what you do is you take your watch and just throw it away. No, throw it away. By the way, Walter, Walter, Sir Walter Jones said, listen, now you know, when you talk to him, and I talked to you before we said, and we talked to him again, he, if you talk to him, you're going to be there for a minute. And so both of us, we like to talk. So what was that conversation about almost two and a half hours? So yeah, yeah. But anyway, guys, we were, I brought on Marcus Rogers. And I'm going to let Damon, because he's not the only one, he's not the only other people that I'm, that I'm friends with and friendly with and cool with, even those at a distance that waited, they had to kind of do a double take. Wait a minute, Corey, you should have, you should have brought the hammer to this guy. And so I want to give Damon an opportunity to really just, you know, kind of express his concern, at least initially, and then where he is now. And then we'll kind of just kind of pick up and then we'll talk about, because we want to talk about if I did the right thing or the wrong thing. If I did the right thing the wrong way or the wrong thing the right way, that kind of thing. And then what should we all be looking out for? Because the likelihood of you guys talking to a, a well-known person who has bad doctrine. And then, and again, he has bad doctrine. It's going to be small, but you've got people in your circle, people that you might run to, maybe your pastor, how do you do it? So Damon, tell, go ahead and express your thoughts on this. Yeah. So I'm coming from a particular place of concern with it, because I had been a oneness Pentecostal at one time before and a very pronounced oneness Pentecostal teacher and, and apologist. So, you know, I debated believers on the Trinity, right? And so being moving back into biblical orthodoxy, some of the ministry, some of my focus in ministry is actually aimed at reaching people who are caught up in oneness Pentecostalism, because oneness Pentecostalism is not biblical Christianity. It is, they have a very heretical belief in God. They have a heretical view of Christology and they have a heterodox view of the gospel. That makes it, that sits it outside of the pale of biblical orthodoxy. And so I currently do a lot of teaching in terms of discipleship for people who are coming and have come out of oneness backgrounds, discipling them into biblical orthodoxy and the gospel. Some of those include pastors, members of congregations. And when I hear a person like Marcus Rogers, especially somebody of his influence, it's particularly concerning to me because Marcus, like for instance, T.D. Jakes, they all do the same thing. Oneness people, they all play out of that same playbook. And you have to really be careful about the language they use because they pour entirely different meanings into it. And so I heard the interview and it was very similar to what T.D. Jakes did with the elephant room. He tried to really play down on certain uses of words, like for instance, manifestation, manifestations versus persons. And then he used a lot of double speak, which again, people in cults use often, whether they're Seventh Day Adventists or Jehovah's Witnesses and Oneness Pentecostals do the very same thing. I heard Marcus doing that. And because I was oneness and particularly a learned oneness, they came to me for greater explanations of their theology in terms of how to explain it and how to even refute things like detrinity, this, that, and the other. So I was no essentially run-of-the-mill kind of oneness. So I know all of the arguments. I know all of the arguments. I know those arguments better than they do. And I heard, I could hear that Marcus still holds to those views. He will essentially try to play down on it as much as he could. And typically when a oneness does that, it is because their prominence and popularity is moving them more towards a center or a mainstream. And so they want to maintain that kind of audience without upsetting anybody. So they'll move to kind of neutralize the language. But they mean all of the same exact things. So I heard Marcus doing that. And that says to me that Marcus is not a brother because he cannot, he does not believe the things that are essential to believe as a Christian. And so there are people who would say, well, you know, I don't see where believing in the Trinity is essential to salvation. But I think that's framing the question in the wrong way. The reality is, is that you don't have a gospel without the Trinity. So inherently when a person believes the gospel, they are inherently accepting the Trinity to be fact. How else could you arrive at a John 3 16 where God loves the world in this way that he sends his son? Is he sending himself or is he sending someone else? And so right then and there, you have a very significant distinction. And so the oneness will say, oh, yeah, we believe in distinction. But but when it comes down to what does distinction mean, they deny personal distinction. For them, it's just distinction in role, right? And they'll play that game in conversation. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We believe in distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And they're hoping that you're not pressing or leaning any further into will define that distinction. What does that mean? Well, if there's not personal distinction between the Father and the Son, then Jesus is a big liar. In fact, he's the worst of liars, because he would have us to believe that he was actually having a conversation and even in eternal relationship with someone else turns out he's just a great puppet master, throwing his voice. He's a ventriloquist, right? And and this is very, very significant to to the implications are vast as it relates to the gospel and other things we'll get into later in the conversation. But yeah, I definitely grew very, very concerned. And after talking to you, I can understand what your purpose and motive was and what you were going for. But when I started reading some of the comments, I saw people taking away from that the wrong thing. Some of them were like, okay, well, he's safe. He's good. Okay, he's a brother. I don't think that's what you were going for. But that's what many people in the comment section were walking away with. And I think we not only need to put an asterisk next to his name, we just need to be aware he is not a he is not a biblical teacher. He's actually a false teacher. So let me say this. So let me say this. And just just in case anyone is misunderstood what I was saying, I'm not saying and I haven't said yet that that Marcus or anyone else is a brother. Matter of fact, I said the first thing I said, I have no idea. I have no idea. I said, so but what I'll do is I will treat him like one. And here's the reason why I thought to do so not as though that I am, you know what here, here's the keys to everything Marcus or whomever else. But because the possibility, let me let me just play it because I know I know my moderators want this and the crowd does too. But let me but the possibility of this, you can be saved and stupid treat that you can be saved and stupid. So my thought was my wonder is, huh, I'm not I'm not I'm not trying to be insulting. But there are people who say they believe something and have no clue what they believe or how to articulate it. As I told Marcus, you say this and then you come back. Okay, okay. And then you come back like wait a second scratch my head. Come back over here. And so it's your responsibility to articulate that plus the fact that you're a pastor, the responsibility is high. Now normally, as a matter of fact, what I was doing with him, no, no, no, no, no false teacher, this and that, you know, almost like almost like the exercise, you know, you know, I keep my distance kind of thing, right? I'll tell you all why I kind of gave a switch up. But I'm not too sure. Again, if you ask me which way I'm leaning, I'll tell you which way I'm leaning in terms of if I had to, if you made me, you know, if you had to lay odds and I had to put some money down, I could tell you which way I'm leaning. But I have in the past been wrong. And so you guys, hopefully you guys know my know my heart. I'm never going to back down from what the what the word says, no matter who it is. The same thing as it was with with Pagani, when he came on, I did not stop or cease to call out what I saw or what we saw as bad or heretical teaching or anything like that or whatever. But what if a person I've had this happen before David, where someone is, they think something and then you drill down and you talk to them. Okay, I see your point because they just don't know they they they now I think, and I've said before that he ought to he ought not to be leading. But he's not getting ready to stop that. And the reason why I said, you know what, let's try this then, because he reached out. Anyone else that I've had an issue now when I say it guys listen any let me go full screen let me go full screen on this anyone else that I've ever had an issue with or has an issue with me. If they do the same thing if they if they call me hey can we talk not call me hey let's fight but call me hey I might be I might be in need of something I might need some help on you know, then okay fine. It was just that it was the way that he came. And so you know what we'll find I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt without giving him I guess carte blanche to everything so I'm and I don't want you guys think that I'm saying you must treat him like a brother or except because I don't I don't know that he is or is not what I can say I'm open to the possibility that he just doesn't know what he's saying or had articulate because Damon's right. The Trinity is essential. However, I always say that because it can be difficult for some people many people most people to to articulate especially newer Christians that there's not one of us that got saved and could articulate the Trinity. But I think what's important is that you at least accept that Jesus is the Lord that he is God. And then if you're teaching in his position he needs to be able to articulate the distinction and so forth and he can't he can't take the dirt out and then throw the dirt back in the water and mud it up again. And so that that is an issue and it may very well be that you know what after after weeks time or months time or something I may say y'all listen we tried and we and it didn't work out and so on to the next mark and avoid but what will I do the next time let's say if I got burned because I can't get burned but let's say we find out that that that that I'm not saying he is or isn't but let's just say Marcus turns out to be the worst wolf ever would I would I do it again yep how many times will I do it until until ever the reason why is because I was in a position to where I needed someone to say hey give me the benefit of doubt what you see is not necessarily my heart and sometimes that might be it might be hard to see it now it's possible that you can see somebody's heart obviously by their words but the fact that he reached out that said more to me than me reaching out to him and getting hold of him if that if that makes sense. Yeah could I interject I wanted to say something you made a point on articulating the the Trinity and and and I think that's a really important piece to consider so nobody needs to be able to no believer needs be able to articulate the Trinity in some sophisticated way the the the issue with false teachers and even false brethren is not how clearly they can articulate the doctrine of God but whether they believe it right so so there's a difference between what what I would call comprehension and apprehension right so at the very least believers are called to apprehend that is to lay hold of the truth right this is what Paul encouraged and admonished in his letters to in his pastoral letters is to hold fast it's the word for apprehend to grab hold up right tightly not let go grab hold of the truth right so every believer needs to be able to affirm the truth comprehend which is to to wrap your mind around would involve intellectual capacity to understand and since everybody's ability to understand may be different ability to understand does not does not hinder or necessitate it doesn't hinder believing right so so your ability to comprehend is is is no hindrance to to believing right so there's some people won't believe unless they fully understand that's not how it works we actually work from believing towards understanding hence believing the gospel and and understanding is something that comes with discipleship the issue that we have with people like Marcus is denial is is actual unbelief right and and if he can't and if he doesn't if the issue is it well he doesn't understand well well that's why he shouldn't be teaching because if you don't understand that doesn't mean that you still can't be teaching errors he comes down to a real simple question and that is can a person teach falsely and not be a false teacher and the answer is no if you teach falsely you are a false teacher because what excuse do you have for teaching if if is it is it ignorance well if it's ignorance then you shouldn't be teaching right and so they can't claim ignorance but the reality is is that he's not claiming to be ignorant he's claiming to disagree he's claiming to not believe so for instance as soon as you brought up the the matter of distinction he said you see that that's kind of the issue you know a lot of people have problems with that word means and you know and for me you know distinction means this so he's right away rushing towards what he believes about it consciously knowing that distinction for us from a biblical sense means that the father is a distinct person from the son what he's clearly saying in other words is I don't believe that it's one thing to say I don't understand it right and and and nobody's going to be dinged on that but to deny biblical truth especially that which is revealed in scripture is there's no excuse for that that's just outright unbelief and that's where the issue comes down to nobody's going to be judged on the basis of how well they understood or could articulate biblical faith but they can't deny it and then turn around and say well you know I really didn't understand the resurrection so I just didn't believe it so let me let me say this I am matter of fact I want to answer someone else's statement as well I'll start with that as first matter of fact so he says I'm not sure why Cory is defending a known heretic on this one bro mark brother mark or bro Marcus is the nire of the trinity and the pastor we shouldn't go easy with a couple things one I'm not defending him I haven't made a statement to say that Marcus's sound Marcus or you all go check him out we didn't put up the his channel anything like that for you to go investigate by the way if you haven't done so make sure you all go and check out brother Damon's channel it is linked in the in the chat spin the chat but that being said I'm not defending him I'm not telling you to go check him out I'm not telling you to go and follow him what I am saying is what this is what I'm doing here and I said this before the reason why this is just my approach now going hard on somebody or going easy on somebody or not going easy on somebody for the sake of not going easy that make any sense here's what I mean somebody's got it coming do I have to give it to them publicly or do I have to give it to them privately well if I could if I can possibly and this is my hope I'm not I'm not banking a whole lot but possibly something because what if what if what if he's just he really is confused now again I'm not saying I know for a fact a confused person or person that can articulate the truth should not be pastoring should not be leading should not be teaching there's a stricter condemnation on that stricter judgment against that person and I'm not saying that there's nothing that I've said against Marcus that I've taken back haven't I have not taken down a video or recanted anything other than if I have said some words that I probably should not have said because we can say some words sometimes so then forgive me but what I said I don't take back how I said fine so with him and in the conversations having with him maybe maybe and so let me give him this is me let me give him the benefit of doubt because here's the reason why no one in the night now you you said so or I'm not sure how you how you're saying but I don't I didn't see anyone in there saying you know what Marcus's Marcus doctrine is okay as a matter of fact I can't I kept saying that he that he's wrong on those doctrines as a matter of fact we've had which we didn't tend on having a doctrine discussion on on tongues and so I disagree with him on that on on on demon demonization on salvation baptism there's a myriad of things that we would disagree on as well as the Trinity and I only was going to look for does he at the very least because I think I think salvation is based off of you must accept as Jesus says in John 8 that you must believe that he who he is other than that you will die in your sins so let me just see if that's possible and so having our conversations even though in the video I'm leading him to some degree asking him and then he's responding yes because just for the sake of time but prior to that he was he was I said what do you think what do you know and so forth and asking him about do you think they're distinct do you think he's eternal and so forth and he's like he was given the right answers but then I think it's probably kicking in as though he wants to try to explain himself like well you know what when you explain yourself this is the problem well I don't like labels well it doesn't matter if you like labels are not they're there and you at the very least need to be able to explain because what if you got a member who says pastor so and so what about this what about that and then you say well I don't like labels you haven't given them anything it's your job as a as a shepherd to shepherd the flock that that God has given you that is if we if we presume that God has given them but the point is this I'm in no way condoning or or accepting what I'm trying to do is because you guys don't deal with Marcus Rogers you guys deal with with Bob Rogers you guys deal with Mary Smith you guys deal with your own particular pastor and my point is how do you deal with them because here's what I know has happened on YouTube it's easy to point your fingers and yell at somebody at a distance and let's be honest okay can we just be honest guys God is watching forget the other folks in the chat there's four in what four or five hundred folks they're watching forget them God is watching most of you are not going to have that exact same energy with someone as a matter of fact a lot of people don't have the wherewithal scripturally to go to someone that way as well so and even if you're right I I know I'm right in terms of his doctor David I'm fully convinced that he is that his doctrine is an error I'm just not fully convinced that he is intentional he could be and if he if he is intentional well then to type up another thumbnail and and put another video together and say y'all we try because I believe in the Bible we've got examples of people who were treated like brethren who were not their their doctrine and their behavior wasn't condoned but they were treated like brethren and so I said okay well let's let's do this the same way that it was done with what a year two years ago guys with with begoni never came back and endorsed his doctrine as a matter of fact what I was trying to use as an opportunity to kind of get in and find out why they believe what they believe and if there's can be some sort of inroads made to why we can why you're wrong because oh by the way they have admitted that they do listen and have made some corrections just not publicly and so what if we can what if it can possibly change and so my only point my only goal my only hope is because I've dealt with guys that that are murders guys that were sex offenders and I'm talking about I don't mean like like male and female I mean on children guys that were transgender people that were dealing with homosexual issues the most vile of racists who said man you know what okay fine they they they extended a little bit of opportunity a little bit of hope and so you know what the Lord made a way just by the through the spirit these men coming around and so for me y'all didn't understand my conviction for me anybody that at least asked for help I'm gonna turn and stop now do they necessarily want help it could be a joke it could be a game we'll find out no harm no no skin off my nose it won't hurt me as a matter of fact in the end who is going to look bad it won't be me for showing some grace and I'm not telling you I'm not let me say it again I'm not saying go support him believe it I do not do not follow his teachings let me say it again do not follow his teachings but I want us to and again it's really not so much about Marcus it's about how we deal with false teachers and so forth let me go and let you back in Damon so yeah what do you think about what I what I just said all that stuff I just said was it nonsense did make any sort of sense all right yeah no I so you know again I have a I have a unique perspective listening as a person who who was on this at one point right so I can hear all of the places where Marcus double downs and uses even double speak right so let me let me let me go back to something you you mentioned here just a minute ago about whether or not he's just essentially ignorant right lack of a better term confused that I think is the word that you used a person that's confused here's what you would expect to hear from a person who's confused there'll be a level of humility where they are able to admit and to concede that I may not really have all of the right answers I'm willing to learn I could be wrong about this this is what I think based on what I was taught but I could be wrong and I don't really want to be wrong I do want to agree with what God's word says that's not the posture of Marcus Rogers and never has been Marcus believes what he believes he believes that he's correct now that and that just really brings us to the question of of heresy and even the the the word heretic originally in the New Testament the word heretic placed the emphasis on the outcome of heresy and the outcome of heresy was division hence the word the greek word hereticus literally means to divide and so you could see how obviously it involves teaching that is erroneous or or goes away from biblical orthodoxy but the emphasis of the word is on what it accomplishes and that is it ruins its shipwrecks people's faith it leads them to destruction it creates division in the church hence the word hereticus means division and so listen to the bit listen to the biblical writers on this for instance Paul says a heretic that hereticus a divider after two or three attempts at admonishing that is an attempt to to correct them he says then at that point reject why is he saying that because a heretic is not simply one who believes falsely a heretic person who believes not simply falsely but believes that the false version is the truth and the true version version is false and with every attempt to correct that person they reject that so it's it's it's not just that they are teaching wrong it is also a disposition of pride in their heart that refuses to repent right and so well that's marcus rogers he's not confused so here's the only thing though daemon because i agree with you as a matter of fact we we covered this uh not about marcus rogers but we covered this before i don't know if that's large enough for you to see on the screen or if you guys can see that but reject the fact a factitious man a factious man i'm sorry and the word that there is hereticus as well as roman 16 11 through 18 that's right and so the issue is because i've always felt like okay this is intentional he's lying fraudulent and so forth whatever the only deal was for me i've never actually had a conversation with him and just just with the conversation by phone matter of fact funny thing was when he called me my wife's like who is that and he was he was as deferential and yes sir and so forth and this now it could all be a ruse i bet he's not the if he was blowing smoke up you know he's not the first person to do so um however what if he is it and so that's okay well fine let me let me give him the opportunity and then on the on the on the video or the live stream he seemed pretty different now he may it may just be a maybe a ploy which is fine because we've had folks that were just um honest seemingly and nice and so forth but it was my first time that even plays into paul's words in roman's uh 16 17 through 18 where he says and i i don't want to cut you off but i just don't know this is just so interesting about the deferential respectful kind of because that that's how they do it's actually part of how they uh they gain their foothold it they seem uh sincere and all that they utilize that so notice what paul said now i urge you brothers and sisters to watch out for those who create divisions that that's uh that's the same word for heresy and obstacles so you notice the emphasis on what happens as a result notice of the false teaching and obstacles contrary to the teaching so you could see that heresy obviously is false teaching but you can also see the emphasis on what it creates and that is division and and and obstacles in the faith right and so we say contrary hence that's the nature of heresy to the teaching that you have learned avoid them uh because such people do not serve our lord so that even answers the question of whether or not they are brothers and sisters when he says but their own appetites but then here's the interesting thing paul goes on to address even their approach sometimes their disposition uh they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting with smooth talk and with flattering words and uh look just go back i encourage anybody go back to the elephant room conversation the episode with td jakes they couldn't hardly uh ask the right questions because they were too enamored at his presence uh at his the way he carried himself he conducted himself the words that he used is a very very difficult to to challenge a person that's coming across so sincere so nice so disarming and yet that becomes part of why they kept throwing very soft underhanded pitches at him rather than really pressing him on what do you actually mean by that like for instance when he said he literally says this um he said well you know i don't like the word persons i don't really care for the word persons i prefer more pauline language right and and you know for the theologically minded oh that sounds like he knows what he's talking about and and he's referring to uh uh was uh first timothy i think yeah first timothy uh three sixteen uh greatest mystery of godliness god was manifested in the greek he manifested he was manifested in the flesh justified in the spirit seen among angels and preached on into the world and received up in the glory so he takes advantage of the word manifest manifested he was manifested in the flesh and so for td jakes where he prefers the word manifestations but pauline used the word manifestations he said he was manifested so the only person in the godhead who was revealed in a physical human way was the son not the father not the holy spirit so you can't speak of the godhead as manifestations when the only only only time that word manifestation uh is is used uh with any person in the godhead it's with the son because that refers to his incarnation so manifestations would be incorrect so his rejection of the word persons is really in fact a denial of actual distinction between personal distinction between the father the son and the holy spirit choosing then modalistic language because what he's really doing is doubling down on the fact that i really don't believe even though i'm telling you what you want to hear i really don't believe that so td jakes is not confused either and he's not ignorant he knows exactly what he's talking about td jakes told us essentially that uh he he felt that the distinctions between the oneness and the trinity were really a matter of semantics i mean he made that position ultimately clear and and so when they get pressed or pushed with their backs up against the fence that's kind of how they'll reason well you know i think we're really saying the same thing in a different way to say to the other but people like rogers and jakes have one thing in common they have various people who listen to them and and and so they'll try and tow that line so that they don't appear to be too much of one or the other but what do they actually believe well they actually believe in modalism hands down and i had a yeah i had a i had a buddy of mine he's a buddy of mine and he's a brother and it's gonna this is where i'm where i'm coming from so when it comes to his his view of the trinity he was a oneness pentecostal and he seemed to love the lord he had a bunch of fire and we would we would butt heads we would just butt heads didn't too much really like each other but you know we were we were cordial you know in public to each other but yeah you know that guy is his dad whatever basically he's a heretic i'm a heretic he ain't safe i ain't saying that kind of thing and talking to him we had a bible said he started showing me the bible study i think he came to the bible study just to kind of you know take notes and just you know see what he can just you know tear down and we got to talking and he seemed more of the markets right and this is where so the whole what and i didn't put up guys i i i failed to put it up as he was as he was speaking about uh roman 16 about for such men are slaves not of the lord but of their own appetites with their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting so forth a couple things one and i agree with that obviously my only issue is i i need to i want to see it not not that i'm that i'm going to say that he's not because what he hasn't done to me is do that to me personally that he might but with this guy i won't say i'll say his name uh this guy laxing um he was the same way he couldn't he couldn't or he couldn't spell articulate but he held to it after a while of him because what it was was him you know his pride was there he was leading all these other men and so what he ended up doing is that oh what he ended up doing was he would kind of double down when you hold his feet to the fire but behind the scenes okay he was he was starting to listen i'm just hopeful of that uh because what i want to do is how i do this it's not just with with markets this would be the same if there's someone that's speaking about demons or uh you must be water baptized upside down in in a four gallon you know bucket that kind of thing in order to be safe so my my thing was not disagreeing with the with the teaching but but the approach how do i get to know if this is markets now other folks have had more experience with them uh i'll see a video say okay that's just wrong that's just wrong i haven't covered him actually in a in a little bit of a while but i've seen him come out he was always quick to to defend himself but then talk to him it seems like it seems like that maybe he's just one first of all he's out there by himself and most of these guys are by themselves or they're in an echo chamber where they got other folks who think like them speak like them kind of encouraging them along but they don't have anybody they started off young never had any mature man to kind of help guide them along say hey listen this is wrong or to speak into them one about their life and then two about their doctrine and he is he is one like that and so okay was this a cry for help it might be it might not be but in terms of approach and not even so much with with with markets and i get that that you would be certainly more sensitive to the issues or even maybe double speak if someone is really kind of just playing with the with the training this one is people you know you you're probably more in tune to it but what about if it's not regarding the training what if it what if it's about something else what if it's someone who is um out there you know folks being slain in the spirit all these all these ridiculous teachings and so forth what about that person how is how what what's the approach that you would take for so let's say if it's if it's Marcus riders but it's not a trinity issue it's something else something also that we would say is heretical uh and then they called up they called up Damon and hey brother listen hey man the god brother um um won't talk to you i think i think you know your stuff i think you mean well um and so you know i'm just i'm i feel like i'm hurting uh and i could use some help i could use another brother what would then be your now let's say this is a person that you had previously castigated but then he calls you up he calls you up because i think the funny thing is the funny thing is though in this day man i was actually listening to some of the stuff that i said about Marcus some time ago i forgot i had forgotten i had said some stuff about i called my men listen i don't know why he called me i don't know why he called me i called i called him some names um a couple times i reached out in a friendly way though right but and i said Marcus i one video i said i would like to talk to you no no nothing and i even said it won't it'll be cordial either privately or publicly but perfectly privately and so um i said i doubt if he ever would call but he did to my to my shock and dismay i mean i'm not just made my shock and surprise and so if a person does that to Damon what would what would you in turn do what would be your approach yeah so i think that involves uh understanding what uh how i would make those distinctions so uh it i think it would be helpful to this conversation to to define what some of these categories are because that would help um that would help me better explain how i would treat that person and how you know what my approach what my thinking would be in in that regard so uh the first thing is is is that um we throw these terms around we we throw around uh terms like false teacher uh heretic or heresy and they we even use the word heterodoxy uh and and hence we we we obviously use words like orthodoxy or the truth uh so what would orthodoxy be right these these are really important to the conversation well orthodoxy are the um the the the irrefutable essential uh matters of the christian faith that actually define uh what uh what we believe right these things are essential uh to our faith in other words if any one of these uh building blocks are moved out of the way uh then um then what we believe uh biblically uh is is is false right this is you have to believe these things right any one of these things that are moved out of the way then it it um the the implications to that is is that uh it damages uh it damages the other essential matters of the faith right so jesus um if jesus was not born of a virgin uh then that that affects the incarnation right if if he did not incarnate and he's not uh truly god and truly man uh well then that obviously that affects uh what he was able to accomplish at the cross so forth and so on so all of these different things are essentially daisy chained together right so um orthodoxy are those essential matters of the christian faith if if we don't believe those things essentially what we are really saying is is that we are not truly christians in the biblical sense right so uh so if you kind of think about a number line like uh you know what we learned when we were kind of learning uh we were learning decimals and those kind of things in in school think about this number line and you've got zero and or integers rather uh everything to the right is uh from zero to ten and then everything to the left is from zero the negative ten right so uh everything from zero to ten is orthodoxy this is right hence it's it's right right this is right believing right and um if you were to move off center from zero and let's say you're just kind of somewhere in between zero and negative two or three uh that's essentially heterodoxy hetero uh from the greek heteros it means different so you are moving away from uh the faith you haven't completely undermined uh the gospel or the truth uh essential christian doctrine but you are moving away from it you are moving in the wrong direction that would essentially be heterodox that's dangerous because you're obviously moving away and essentially that moving away usually continues uh to move in that in that direction right it's it's it's going wrong and uh but by the time you get a little further out well that's full-orbed heresy and the reason that all heresy is heterodoxy but all heterodoxy is not necessarily heresy because all heterodox is not necessarily a denial of essential christian matters of the faith it is moving in a in the wrong direction but heresy completely flips orthodoxy upside down it it uh it says it suggests that orthodoxy is is wrong and and then it suggests that the heresy is what is the actual truth so it is it essentially completely undermines what the truth is by positing the opposite of that as as as being true so that's not just that is heterodox but it's more than just that so so so heterodoxy is a general moving away from orthodoxy but heresy which is heterodoxy has moved so far away that it is no longer the truth it is the opposite of that and yet when a person gets out there uh that's where you see uh uh essentially a denial of at least one or more of those things that are essential to the christian faith and so um so so it's important to kind of understand that so um i would say for a person that uh they don't necessarily deny any of the essentials but they hold to some wonky views like some wonky um spiritual warfare kind of stuff right but they don't deny any of the essentials uh or they or they hold to some other wonky charismatic kinds of uh views and it's weird expressions slaying in the spirit holy ghost glue sticking in the spirit and you know goofy things like that right i they don't deny any of the essentials of the faith and in conversation with them well let me let me just say this how would i regard this person as a as a preacher i would say i wouldn't say that they are a false teacher i would say that they are an unsound teacher they are unsound and therefore untrustworthy right because while those uh while those teachings may not be biblically right as in they're moving off-center towards a heterodoxy they don't really undermine anything that's biblically essential but that also doesn't give them a pass that makes them still let me put an asterisk here red asterisk in fact because this is not good this tendency to hold to things that are not biblically right or in line with scripture is a dangerous tendency right so so i would say this person is unsound and therefore an untrustworthy teacher i wouldn't necessarily label them as a false teacher because they're because what they're teaching while it may be erroneous is essentially marginally erroneous i always get people make this thing well we all teach something false well sure marginally speaking but you can't be wrong about the essentials that's not marginal error that's a egregious error okay well let me ask you this let's let's say we got we got a person who uh was brought up in let's say jehovah's witnesses they they their grandparents their mom and daddy and now they they're in kingdom hall and they place their faith in christ they don't know much about anything they just recognize the fallents of themselves place their faith in christ uh and they're not sure so so initially they they are they are unsure they that they they haven't even figured out what the jehovah's witnesses preach or mormons whomever i'm just using somebody uh and now over time they understand what what the what that particular group believes and wait a second that's not what i see in the scripture so they end up moving away from that right and so but but at the time they are wrong on some things but see where i say a person that becomes a heretic uh is not just in the consistency of their errors but also in the intentionality they are they are there's a pride to it they are trying to do this no matter what what you tell me i'm gonna preach this now for me i don't know i don't know uh but i'll give you guys two examples hopefully one of these you should know hopefully you guys don't know two of these examples but here's two examples two real-life examples and works this way you got two two criminals this is the one you guys should know about some of you guys might two criminals and they're both in court one was pursued and arrested the other turned himself in well who then does the court have some leniency on or your parents you did something wrong you got two brothers when i'm got caught the other said mom dad mommy daddy listen i did this and and really so there's a little bit of leniency because maybe i'm seeing something now i could have turned myself in because i'm about to get caught that's gonna come out or mom and daddy knows how you turn yourself in because i got you on camera i just hadn't gone to the camera yet so we'll find out but at least in the initial approach the two are going to be same crime but the two are going to be treated differently because of how they approach the ultimate judge either that judge or their parents and so that's really going to be for me the only only distinction if i have to go after you and i catch up to you but then it's going to be bam bam bam uh and so uh i'm i'm i'm what i am first concerned with before we get to your uh the issues is the heart because i can work with the heart now i can't tell your heart until i talk with you heart to heart man to man but i got i'll deal with let's get to that first because that's going to tell me my approach if i know that you are two people that is wrong as they can be but one of them is just intentional he's angry he's deceptive and the other person i i knew a guy who was a who was a preacher who died a sinful rotten no good i hate to say this about the guy but the guy was just no good and he knew it and so my approach him was a totally different versus another guy who was just just just is wrong believe the same thing but he was he was gentle um he's like really you think so well our approach was different that other guy he actually listened now the other guy who was rotten no good he listened to but he was really listened to a way to kind of get past what i would say so that in the future when someone else brings the same objections he can get past and so i handle them both differently and so i get it sometimes there there has to be there has to be a um some either some wisdom or some some the way you handle someone is going to be different from person to person so that's that's me so let's say the person believes that um you can be slain in the spirit all is as as as hyper charismatic as benny hen ish as possible as creflo dollar ish and kenith copeland ish as possible and he says hey damon i need your help what you know and he is he's genuine or he's seen i shouldn't say he is because you don't know what he he sings that way he approaches you in that manner um how should we deal with this with this person yeah well i would i would think i would so sorry about that okay yeah i never i'd never have pets interrupting me it's a i'm lying i got my my my cat and dog would do the same thing so i know what it's like all right yeah he sees he hears somebody out in the uh cul-de-sac so i would deal with them in the same way that i would deal with the person who is essentially outside of the christian faith they they're they're essentially subscribed to some sort of religious views they could be jehovah's witnesses i would literally deal with for instance a a word faith teacher uh in in that way they're their years and their track record of teaching things that are heterodox and even heretical says while they may be a teacher i just wouldn't regard them as a brother however uh i would treat them in the very same way that i would treat any person whether they are subscribing to some religious construct or not uh i would talk to them as though they need to hear the gospel hence obviously i would want to be uh respectful and gentle with them but i would regard them as a person that that needs to hear the gospel i would not regard uh such a such a teacher with such a long track record of teaching falsely uh as a brother and for me if they were truly a christian brother so this is so uh let me answer this question uh because there's a lot of nuance obviously to be had in conversations like this is it possible for a believer to to go into theological era such as heterodoxy or even heresy absolutely in in the very same way that it is possible for believers to not only commit sin but to also go into for instance an extended season of sin where they are in rebellion the the fact of the matter though is that if they truly are believers in any in every genuine sense of having been justified by faith and reconciled to god and obviously indwelled by the spirit born you know regenerated then you would expect for what jesus said the holy spirit will do to happen and that is when he's a spirit of truth it's come he will guide uh you into all truth and so um i wouldn't believe a person is truly a believer if they lived in sin unrepentantly and never repented just like i wouldn't believe that a person is a brother who remained in theological era or heresy and never repented but can a believer stray into sin and into false ways of teaching yes but if they're truly a believer they won't remain there the the difference between persons like benny hen and instead of the other these are not folk who strayed into that these are people who began there that's what they've always been teaching right so so they've not demonstrated themselves to be uh true believers in the faith because they have uh decades and decades of a track record of teaching heterodoxy and heresy which demonstrates not only lack of repentance but obviously lack of conviction which is really more evidence that they are not they're not obeying the holy spirit which is really evidence that they don't have the holy spirit they don't belong to him right a person who does belong to him will ultimately not resist the convicting power of the holy spirit and will not only repent of behavioral sin and error but they will also repent of theological and biblical error right but but for persons like that i regard them as needing the gospel right they may in fact be teachers prominent at all but what i think about them is here's a person who needs to hear the gospel and be saved and i will use and leverage my time in relationship with them to not simply point out where they are wrong but to but to point but to point them truly to christ and truly to what the bible actually says about what the gospel is right so that's how i would regard that person that they they're not just untrustworthy they're they're just false i don't i wouldn't see them as brothers however there are true believers we may not necessarily know this and this is why it's important that we really maintain consistency with our discernment uh there are people who are teaching falsely currently who may be true brothers or sisters but you and i don't know that we're not privileged necessarily to know that uh however if they are truly a true brother or sister we're not going to know that while they're teaching falsely we could only know that by fruit and what fruit would that be that would be their repentance it would be their acknowledgement of the truth that's when we would know it it would not be possible for us to know that while they are in error and this is why when people have demonstrated a pattern of error we asked trick that person if they're not really demonstrating by fruitful evidence that they really are believers we shouldn't really regard them in that way and although they could be but if they are it's going to become more apparent in the fruit of repentance and the acknowledgement of the truth and their humility and all those things that cause them to align with what the truth of the word of god is we are not going to know that while they are in error so as long as a person is holding to error my regard for them is that they are not a brother that's so long as they do that and i could be wrong but the only way for me to to uh to know truly that they are it would be with the fruit uh that they bear and that would be the fruit that is in line with with scripture they're not it's going to be not only orthodoxy but orthopraxy right actions and right believing right so it seems like okay i think we're saying the same thing except for one thing one hour pro i want to know now i don't know i don't know i know people have spoken to them i don't know what they've said and so forth whatever uh and so the only way that i can know that he is going to be repentant of what i say is if i say it to him you know what i mean and so when me saying i'm going to treat him like a brother is because i'm going to hold you accountable we're going to find out we're going to find out real soon what your heart is if you are willing to repent and or if you are even understanding he's not like he's he's a four-year-old and he can't think that's not that's not the case and so uh there is some level obviously there's got to be some some level of contrition that is as you said if you really in is indeed a brother if you really are indeed if you have have the spirit in you because the one thing i don't i i would much rather treat a non-believer like a brother than a brother like a non-believer i can soon find out if the person's a non-believer if he actually is a non-believer it's not gonna take very long it's harder to do so on on on youtube sometimes it's it seems easy but then you find out this guy just and that's my only that's my only concern mark is you just don't know but i don't want anyone to think that i am am because i don't have a problem with tell you i disagree here's where you're wrong you're wrong and here's why so when i get with someone and and this isn't this is for this isn't for me and this isn't for you this is for really a lot of the people that that might be in the audience might hear it later if you're going it's one thing to tell somebody that they're wrong and it's another thing you also know why they're wrong but it's quite the other thing to point out where they're wrong and then to show them and so some people just don't have that that that in them me now i'm not saying i'm the world's greatest at this but it has been something that that i've done and can i tell you it it's a hundred percent success rate no no no i don't know no one bats a thousand i've dealt with some guys that i poured into and found out that they was just gaming they was just you know just just what i had the one guy who was um uh said he was struggling with his sexuality and he said brother i need help and so on and so forth whatever been caught a couple of times he said i need some help all he really wanted was some cover that's all he wanted uh and so he thought he had some cover for the moment and he wanted to kind of get back he wanted my blessings in terms of one um doing certain things in ministry no no no no we're gonna find out well how long well as first of all as long as you're asking you won't you're not getting restored to anything but we're gonna find out and second promise you it's going to be worse for you um than than it was in the beginning if i find that you're just full of it well i found that he was full of it and so it was uh he was ostracized he was put out i look at it almost like a uh we don't know about the whole backstory on alexander and and him and as and so forth but they were they were they were false brethren uh but treated as such and at some point time paul said nope you're gone turn it turn out turn those two chumps over uh uh to satan and so that's kind of that that's my i know some people folks people's approach are gonna be different but mine is i i need to find out where your heart is i need to find that are you are you what you say you are so i'll tell you what i'm gonna do i'm open the door a little bit you can come you you know you can come in you come on the porch you come on the porch you can't come in the house you can come on the porch and we can talk and then we're gonna and then we're gonna because i don't think it's that difficult to find out uh someone's heart in relation to the scriptures hey this is wrong this is wrong this is wrong and they see it and they still want to keep to okay we've got a problem the problem is um not just your head but it's now your heart and so now i see your heart this is intentional and so now i've got to warn the folks hey everybody brother so-and-so who we gave we gave a shot we gave a chance to show himself to show not his head but to show his heart he had the opportunity to show his heart show contrition he did not stay away from this brother for now for me if i'm through with you on that regard i'm through with you for good until everything just falls apart so to me it's going to even serve as a as an opportunity for god's judgment to come in as well listen someone showed you love someone showed you an opportunity because maybe it is that everybody that's ever talked to him talked at him i don't know i haven't been on the conversation but i've been around folks that all they've ever gotten with someone talking at them they get defensive they run away and so forth so he can't say nor can anyone say hey quarry uh was rude was dismissive uh i was cordial i was um all these things that you would want and you still didn't get right so much like how i'm sorry go ahead go ahead i uh so um i i would put a tech i would i would put this to the biblical test okay i'll put this to the biblical text so pull up um uh what where's that if uh first not first Corinthians it is in acts it is where um aquila and priscilla explain to apollos to apollos x18 x18 there you go all right so if if we were putting marcus rogers to the apollos test he would fail right so here's several things to note apollos actually was a believer that that that that that everything in the text indicates that apollos was a believer he was uh imperfect in his understanding but he was a genuine believer the text says he knew nothing other than john's baptism which is actually an indication that he was a believer in the very same way that paul acknowledged that john's disciples who he ran into an emphasis in acts chapter 19 the very next chapter that they were believers have you believed i mean have you received the holy spirit watch now since you believe right and and the fact that they have been following john they did believe what john had declared in terms of the you and gellion and that is the one coming after me he's greater than me uh and he existed before me he's going to baptize you with the holy spirit they believe that they believed that he was the messiah they had been out of the area for so long that they had not been around to know that there had been any fulfillment to what john prophesied was going to happen as a result of of of jesus the messiah but they were believers and in that same way a polis was but you'll notice a polis's disposition he he does not have a fully formed uh mature theological understanding uh as it relates to to the faith but when he is lovingly guided and shown it's pointed out by the couple aquila and priscilla um his disposition is one of receiving correction receiving the word and aligning himself and this is a man who in our day in time and even in his uh could have easily rejected that considering the fact that he had already had the reputation for being a person who was mighty in scripture who was a great speaker in orator he already had that for uh to put it in our terms he had a platform and a following right he had people who was like wow this catapallus is is is is incredible right he's he's dope he's fire when he preaches and teaches man he's you know man i know god's really using him but you see a humility that is consistent with the fact that he actually was a believer and what happens after that is a fruit that is demonstrative of a person who uh god has opened his heart god has been dealing with as it relates to correction that's what believers do unbelievers on the other hand and a person who's a false teacher would have an opposite reaction than a polish number one um they they don't demonstrate the humility they demonstrate pride to they they can't be corrected they do not repent they never seem to come to any awareness that they are wrong they they reject every attempt to point out uh if we look at the historical example of for instance calvin as as many times as he attempted to reach out to michael servetus michael servetus not only denied to trinity he had some heretical christological views as well and calvin contrary to what a lot of people may say or hear reached out to uh servetus numerous times in fact uh roman catholic authorities were hunting for both of them calvin literally put his own life in jeopardy to reach out to servetus and explain to him what the scriptures teach about the trinity and why his view was wrong what was what was servetus's view not only did he double down on his heresy but he outright rejected it outright refused uh to repent and continued to teach uh what it was that uh that he was teaching until the time that he was arrested uh apprehended in geneva and then ultimately uh put to death but but you could see there was every effort to reach him and there was this rejection there was this prideful disposition there was a calling the truth era and calling error the truth all of the kind of things that are consistent with the fact that these people are not safe these people are not true believers true believers don't respond in that way there's a humility there's a repentance uh there's an ultimate acceptance and an alignment with the word of god uh that brings them into conformity uh with the beloved community right so we would expect that if a person's a believer i'm checking off are they are they in line confessionally with the historic christian faith how can i claim to be a believer and yet hold to something that biblically and historically is just completely my question to this person was like where'd you get that from because we've got an entire history of christianity that never believed like that so what entitles you to think that you could believe something so opposite uh and and and and so erroneous to the christian faith and literally still call yourself a christian where would you get that idea from and and again we live in a we live in such a time in a society where people believe that they can be christians on their own terms by their own definition and and then they dare you to challenge them because they have all of these moving goalpost definitions of what orthodoxy is and many of them even deny that they'll say there are many orthodoxies and christians held all kinds of views and they imagined that arians and and and modalists were holding hands with trinitarians at the council of nicaea and all kinds of other things like like this and i markets rogers just doesn't pass the apollos test according to act chapter 18 it doesn't resemble any of what i read there in scripture you know when it was funny though here's what's funny you brought up we went through um what passes was this we went to roman 16 we went to titus uh maybe we go smother past this issue of apollos what's funny is the exact same text i brought up uh with with my preference of you know how how i would do it right use exact same text about apollos uh and then one how apollos would react and so forth and so i just don't know how how this person or others that i've done it with how they were how they would react until they react for example someone says well he i've i've talked to mary and i've talked and she didn't miss well okay so i could do one or two things either i can go talk to mary if she allowed me or take your word which what if you're wrong right so so the same thing with him i don't know i don't know how i was going to ultimately be uh and now this isn't the same this is almost apples orange but i'm just using someone's approach paul and barnabas had a different approach paul his assessment of of mark uh was not correct i mean that he was that he was that he should be you know that that that his approach is always wrong or that barnabas's approach was always wrong but one of them was a little bit more concept was was a little more gentle and forgiving well i guess because it was his cousin uh with mark but my point is um the approaches can be different as long as the same outcome um is what we're looking for because my my whole point is to do two things and it's not and someone said is this about it's not about marcus really we've been on marcus it's not it's not it actually is not about marcus it's about all the other people that may have a false teaching um especially the ones that you guys are going to encounter because marcus or pagina these other guys they're not going to call you they're not going to talk to you they're more than likely um but what do you do when mary or terry or john or franc how do you treat them um and so because obviously it's it's easy for the temperature to be way up here on on because it's youtube on youtube we're big and tough and this now we talk unless we all talked to that's that's fine uh and if you talk tough to me what am i going to do if if i would have and i and i i said this to some people who who disagree with me and i gave them opportunity you know put their comments in and i said i'm going to talk to you with the same energy that you wanted me to talk to marcus roger you know you know what they did here's what they did they got upset a lot of them got upset and went to another person's channel who no one should go to his channel and say yeah cori this net well so that one tells me your heart but two you proved my point that maybe sometimes i can't i shouldn't talk to a person and they make sometimes listen i'm not i'm not past getting on you i'm not past talking crazy to you and this and that you know i'm being blunt but it's just not my go to it's not my first thing i can i can get blunt with you afterwards and so same approach that i have with beganni same person i have with anyone else and so i'll use the same script i said you know what let me just let me just see let me see and i would never by the way i wouldn't have a problem with someone doing the opposite of what i did if someone says no marcus when you get on here or and just give it to him i would have a problem with that at all i wouldn't as long as you're trying to get to the heart of it which is um to get to to stop unsound unbiblical teaching and then two as i said before and i mean this that person they do still matter to god and so if possible if possible he could be one over then amen i i agree with i i completely agree with all of that i think the only difference in what i'm saying and maybe i'm saying the same thing as you in a different way is i just would differ in terms of my regard i would look at a marcus rodges no differently than i would look at a jahovah's witness elder would i love him yes uh would i do i love him enough to share the gospel with him yes do i love him enough to even point out uh where and why he is wrong uh absolutely um but i wouldn't regard him as a brother and and i think and and see the reason i'm making this analogy is because for many people they think that one is pentecostals are our brothers they're just our weird brothers or something like that but the reality is is that they're not very different than the jahovah's witnesses see here's the interesting thing modalism which was a much older heresy uh than than arianism was the reality is is that arianism as a heresy uh developed in response to uh civilianism or or modalism so it's essentially on the opposite end of the same heretical spectrum and and so people who hold to modalism today are one this pentecostals the the early churches always believed uh that that was heresy you can even hear ignatius in a section in his uh letter to the i think it's to the trailians he's he's literally wrote an entire section uh on um uh heretics the poison it's called the poison of heretics and he names many of the kinds of heresies denial of the bodily resurrection of christ the denial of his deity instead of the other and then he says a denial even of the distinction the persons of the persons of the father the son and the holy spirit imagining that that they are one and the same person and so he literally describes uh modalism and and considers it uh heresy uh my point is is that well who holds to arianism today well it would be people like some of the the black keeper israelites who hold to uh a a form of arianism and even the jehovah's witnesses right so but but when we think if we were to ask the question well do you believe that jehovah's witnesses are christians and and our brothers and sisters uh nine out of ten christians nine point nine out of ten christians they're going to be like absolutely not but when it comes down to the to the oneness somehow we have a totally different standard and yet they held to uh uh they held to a different but just as egregious form of uh theological and christological heresy as the arians did right so so so so the reality is is is that uh they're they're all going to say use a lot of the same kind of language go to go to jw.org and you're going to see what almost sounds like the gospel if you believe in the lord uh jesus christ you will be saved right believe that he died uh on the state they won't say the cross and this that of the other and they'll use a lot of that very same language and they're like oh hold on uh go to go to mormon uh dot or church of jesus christ a lot of these saints and and you'll see what even appears to be an articulation of the gospel but how do you know it's not well they don't have the right view of theology proper they don't have the right view of christology that is uh of the person and work of christ and hence they don't have the right soteriology or doctrine of salvation in fact if you are theologically you inevitably are with the gospel there's not a single person listening right now or anywhere in this world dead or alive that could ever show me a group of people who held to a wrong view of god and yet had a right gospel because inherently and inextricably woven together is god's self revelation is also inextricably woven into uh his the way that he has acted in salvific history so to know god is to know the gospel and to know the gospel is to know what god has revealed about himself that is exactly why when you look at what the jehovah's witnesses believe about god that's why they end up where they are it with it as it relates to the gospel when you look at what the Mormons believe about god well that's exactly why they end up where they are when you look at what seven day advent is believe about god that's exactly why they end up where they are they were Arians and semi Arians all the way up until 1985 and most of them still do not hold to uh biblical trinitarianism that's why they have and subscribe to other gospels and so it is with persons like like marcus rogers and others he doesn't even hold to a biblical view of the gospel marcus rogers believes that baptism in the name of jesus and speaking in tongues is essential for salvation that is classical oneness pentacosalism and when you think about the history of their movement it is a counter christian movement they only exist in uh as a restorationist group believing that within their remnant or within the groups of those who hold to their theology that god has restored primitive apostolic faith apart from which can't be found in protestant or evangelical christianity so they exist because they believe that we hold to apostate teachings such as the trinity and and things like that so the reality is is is that um when you when you look at what marcus rogers believes from his view of god all the way down to his view of the gospel there it doesn't check any of the biblical boxes and so when he says i believe jesus is lord that's no different to me than a Mormon saying that or jehovah's witnesses especially when who you believe jesus to be is different so it's a different jesus you're talking about sounds like we're talking about the same person but in reality for the for the for the jehovah's witness we're talking about michael the arch angel we're not really talking about the biblical jesus and for the and for the oneness pentacostal they're not talking about the son of god they're talking about the father jesus is the father the father was the one who incarnated sonship is really the body that the father got in not even a person it's his body it's a meat soup which in effect not only denies the eternal sonship of jesus and the relationship that he eternally had with the father but it also ends up essentially affirming that you and i are uh are just like jesus we are people that have god in us because what would have made jesus god right for them it's because the father was in him the father was in him that's that's what they think so that's no different in a lot of respects to what the jehovah's witnesses believe they have a father is god only theology the the oneness also deny that the holy spirit is a person that's nothing essentially but an adjective for the father he is holy and he is a spirit so the holy spirit's not god in a personally distinct way and then the son is just the body they don't believe in the eternal sonship which is exactly where john starts he affirms that the son is god in distinction to the father and existed eternally created the world before uh uh existed before time created the world and eternally existed with the father not as the father which is exactly what john also describes in the third clause of john one and one they deny all that so when they say yeah we believe jesus is eternal that's because they believe jesus is the father so they deny that he is eternally the son and and and so the reason that's important let me say this again for people who don't think please just listen to what i'm saying if you go to first john chapter one verses one through four you will understand uh johannine theology and how he wraps it all together there's that term and in the beginning was the word and the word was with god prostan theon was with god right now the reason that the so theon is what you would call in the accusative form that's because it's the subject of the the sentence right but anytime you find the proposition prost next to the accusative it denotes an actual relationship that is being with someone he could have used any other form like uh meta or power even but he uses prost because the idea then would be toward facing right such as when paul said that uh ultimately when we glorify that we'll uh we'll know even as we are known and then we will see face to face pros upon pros pros upon that in other words we will have intimate knowledge of each other that describes that the word was actually with someone other than himself that's the very thing that that that marcus and them actually deny and that is the whole point of what uh john is arguing through that entire uh prologue there so to start wrong there is to get everything else wrong right so they don't believe that they just think so so when when you ask them what do you think about the word the word is just the reason and the thoughts of god well well that's essentially uh uh uh phylo greek philosophy that's not johannine philosophy for john the word is the same person as the son the word is god and yet the word is not the same person uh as the father and why that's important is when you get to his late later letters he says because we have declared the gospel to you not only will you have fellowship with us but you will have fellowship with the father and with his son and he uses the same word pros so if a believer has fellowship with the father and with the son where do we confuse our identities with the father or with the son we don't confuse our identities with them because with means that we have a relationship with the father and with the son and so the reality is is that if a person is a true believer they have a trinitarian relationship with god john said we have fellowship with the father and he uses the very same construction that he used in john one and one that the word was with god so if we have fellowship with the father and with the son in the same way that the word was with god or with the father if we can understand that we are distinct persons from the father and the son how is it difficult to understand john communicating that the word is a distinct person from who he was with that's not just greek that's just a unwillingness to believe and yet being saved involves fellowship with the father and with the son and so it's not just believing that he's lord believing that he's god and believing that he died for our sins according to john it's believing that the son was sent by the father and came in flesh which presupposes his pre-existence as god that is the very thing that the oneness deny because they believe that the only deity is the father and the son is just the body that the father got in that throws the gospel on its head and that is exactly why they end up with a completely unbiblical uh an unbiblical soteriology and again i will say to the oneness i was more oneness than y'all i could tell you what you believe better than what you believe the fact of the matter is that the oneness faith of which marcus rogers and others like him hold to is just not the gospel and and and yet i will say graciously let me say this so that people are very clear i had become a believer i was born and raised in the nation of islam let me let me say that at the outset i was born and raised in the nation of islam and heard the gospel in my youth responded to the gospel and was baptized as a believer along came oneness people because i didn't have proper discipleship and convinced me that i had been baptized the wrong way and the reason that i needed to be baptized in the name of jesus was because uh the name of the father the name of the son in the name of the holy spirit was all jesus because the word name is in the singular and all of that now me not knowing any better i was like man well that kind of sounds right and then coming from a previous nation of islam background i'm thinking you know they're putting emphasis on the one god maybe they've got a point and and and so i was led astray into that and and and that's the nature of cults is to it's what paul said uh acts 20 uh and 30 i know after my departure savage rules will come in among you not sparing the flock men will rise up from your own ranks uh distorting the truth to lord disciples into following them right so most cults are proselytizing uh believers right so it is very very possible that there are uh many true believers who have been led into theological era away from the truth into those things so i'm not saying that there there's it's not possible that there are truly saved uh believers among the oneness what i'm saying is that if they are truly saved then the same holy spirit that they have it doesn't say he might or can it says he will guide us into the truth which means that in discipleship there is this constant guidance and leading us away from error into the truth well if they are truly saved then we could expect what happened to me and what happened to millions of others to happen to them also that at some point they'll acknowledge the truth at some point they'll become consciously aware that that is error repent humble themselves and acknowledge the truth when they don't when they're not doing that all they're really doing is giving evidence to the fact that they are not believers and again we can't really have any sense of knowing until they do because as long as a person remains in error and uh uh uh in in terms of uh dispositionally rejecting without any repentance at all um heresy they just can't be regarded uh as brothers and and that's why i'm saying for me i would regard him i would treat him kind like you i would be gracious like you i would be willing to have the conversation like you but my regard for him would not be that he is a brother my regard for him would be that he is lost just like any other jehovah's witness or Mormon i know many of them were very very nice people they're just nice and lost and i would treat them with respect because every person is at least deserving of dignity uh as image bearers right so so i i'm we we 100 percent there i would only just disagree with the regard part i just wouldn't regard him as a brother for that reason that's it i didn't mean to get on so box and no you're fine listen you're fine you're fine listen do you that's that's listen if if if i knew you were going to come and talk if if so i'm good so let me say this and maybe someone may think i'm i'm splitting hairs when i say because i'm not regarding him i'm just treating him as and here's the reason why because everybody in the chats like man that's that's and it was and i agree i've said i've said the exact same thing here's here is what i know for a fact i'm not a prophet but let me prophesy because everybody in the chat agrees with what you're saying i agree with it i've said it myself i've said but but here's what's gonna happen because it's easy what's the easiest thing to be right know you're right and to act like you're right to the people who aren't right and what ends up happening is we end up there there's why in relation to say that you are spiritual restored to one sometimes it does say take some tax and grace and sometimes it's the one thing that we forget because it's not us on the other end when you feel like you are in the right position if you feel like you are in the position to give it and the person's the other position is in the person is in position to receive it oh it's easy to say it the way you want to but every last one of us has been in the position where we've been wrong and someone has come at us and we'd like the way they did it there is literally ladies and gentlemen a method to how we do it there there's only a few times where the bible tells us to treat them like an unbeliever now you can you can effectively do so but obviously Matthew 18 were told that if you bring the person to the to the to the church and so forth or to the other brethren and they don't that is if they've sinned against you and so forth and if they don't acquiesce you treat them like a like an unbeliever you deal with a a factitious man the the one who's the who's the heretic who's doing these things but you warn this person after a second and third time i'm sorry well a second and third time after the first time so that means two it's time number two or time three then same thing in romans this person is teaching such such a way or whatever and they still wanted they want to be um flowery with their words flattering and so forth uh even as it relates to all these other people that paul called out the issue that i think everyone might be forgetting yeah uh you can spit fire you can say all the right things you can know the right things but there still is an approach and so what i can't do now other folks might be willing to do so but what i can't do at least especially matter of fact i can't do it even billy i cannot go and say you know what let me let me hit you the way i wanted you i've got to i've got now there can be a common time there's a time where paul says put that brother out they're paul now i don't know if he's referring to the same person it's kind of difficult to see in in second Corinthians if he's saying y'all bring the brother back because the one thing we're good at is bringing down the hammer what we're not so good at is up letting up off the hammer if it's us uh we are we are we are ready for we are ready for some some soft care and if anyone ever says that cori has ever been soft or anything on on on doctor well then you haven't listened uh the point is though it does no good to to to be this stringent toward the gospel because there's two things that there's two things that go hand in hand even for the for the unbeliever even for the wretched person there's two things that go hand in hand obviously sound teaching the bible is our guide but if you don't do any of this stuff in a loving fashion throw your bible out let me say it again you know all all the eyes to be dotted and t's be crossed you know everything about doctrine you know where everyone is wrong and you have no love get rid of your bible then get on your knees go back as paul says in glacial consider how you used to be now you're supposed to preach the word be ready in season out of season he says a couple things we prove rebuke we like the review part the repro the reproof part is us actually taking and teaching right uh i don't know where many folks have been won over to the right bricks at them sometimes get close you gotta get close and hit them sometimes you gotta get close to him with a brick yeah and i've hit people upside the head with one hand and my arm around the other now if they pull away that's that and so my only point is and this is what i want folks to get never once what i disagree with anything that and i have it with what uh what damon is saying right and i'm not disagreeing with what some of you other other guys are saying i want you to understand what i maybe i i'm just not artfully speaking or giving a nuance what i'm saying i'm not calling him or regarding him as i'm just going to treat him as the reason why it's because that's for me and i could be wrong it just seems to be the pattern that was given they first treated these people for example how was judas treated judas was treated like a brother by the one who knew exactly what he was not why well he can never come back and say he on his best their worst day however you look at it he can never say well you know you did me wrong no he listen he treated him well the other brothers treated him well the actual true brothers uh alexander and him and as they can never say so we do have examples where it does go right such as with apollos you know what yeah i got this wrong why they showed him that they preached the word uh i don't know if it was a loving rebuke or reproving but they gave him the truth and now he's regarded in first Corinthians as someone as people saying hey man listen i'm of paul i'm of i'm of sepas and i'm of paulus so yeah folks that were just riding with him and so what i'm saying ladies and gentlemen you need to be careful with your approach now daemon has done this enough times i've done this enough time um and if i have shown this man a little too much love or to a little too much deference uh shame on me i'll get it right uh but i've got my hand on the trigger so to speak my hand is my my gun is right there in the holster i am ready but i think i might start off with a taser first could i could i ask a couple of questions uh my go ahead and i've got a couple questions for you they've asked for you as well good good okay so um you're you're um delineating between and i don't want anybody to think that we're going back and we're having a great no no this is really like the conference we had yeah man we needed to have this kind of we we needed to have a conversation uh on there a long time ago and and thank god that it's finally uh happened you're you're a great brother i have incredible respect for uh you as a believer and as a teacher of god's word um so uh just a couple of questions for you so you you delineate it between um not necessarily regarding him as a brother but treating right so um here's just one quick question i agree with the part about treating kind gentleness with respect first p to 316 i don't know if treating with gentleness and with respect um presupposes the idea of treating as a brother um how would you qualitatively um distinguish between treating kind or treating gentle and with respect and and treating as a brother what would be the qualitative difference between what's the difference not just treating somebody kindly and with respect but treating them like a brother what would be the the the over the top qualitative uh difference that would make that a little different than just treating kind of that word that word treat that word treat because if if i didn't if i'm not going to treat you like a brother i'm not going to treat you at all i won't talk to you if if you are not my brother if you are if you are the enemy if you are on the opposing side as as paul said hand that brother over to satan we ain't talking we ain't got nothing to do with so me treating you like a brother uh i'm not giving you extended the right hand to fellow i'm gonna treat you that way so that i can i can let let me i get close to the talk to you otherwise if i have to treat you like an unbeliever treat a person like an unbeliever we don't talk to them we don't deal with them we don't have any ain't no conversations now someone who is trying to learn like a like a like a teenager or someone who's trying to get well that's different that's a person to treat like an unbeliever which can like a person who is disregarded so if the point comes to where i have to disregard not him like like like a a non-brother like a someone who's just now hearing the gospel obviously the person who's just now hearing the gospel who hasn't heard the gospel he's an unbeliever but but there's a difference when when i think when the bible says to treat this person like an unbeliever or or degenerate or anything like that or what have you that is me taking all hands off no contact no nothing no everything about this person he is for some ungrotted he is no good he is he is kryptonite he is he is plutonium 24 whatever that's what it that's what it'll become so at this moment me treating him like a brother i'm gonna treat him like i would treat the the now he obviously this person is unique because he's got a church which he shouldn't have but i'm treating him like the uh uh uh uh the french foreign student who's coming down here first he's hearing the gospel so i want to see verses let's say oh i'm trying to think of a person um who i don't know hitler i don't know uh saddam who's saying somebody you know you know what you are you are the antithesis you are the you're the antichrist and so for me that's how i kind of delineate the difference of of how i'm treating what's the difference between treating him like a brother versus um being kind to him me just having just having uh the the time of day if i if after this i won't have the time of day for him until satan has his until god deals with him and allows satan to have his way with him other than that there there is no conversation matter of fact that's really what what it was until wow he reached i mean he reached out to me floored me so that's really that's really the delineation and i don't know let me ask you a question do you think so i had this conversation with with a few people about what kori the danger also is that that you are platforming him you're giving him uh an opportunity to you know to have his face on your on your channel and my response tell me if you if you agree with this or not my response was that uh if i've got who i think is more dangerous i think uh michael brown or someone like that is far more dangerous than than a marcus rogers uh or my even the mic tide he's got a huge following the reason why he's more dangerous because michael brown can articulate his points and go to scriptures he's a learned man whether we agree or disagree you know with his doctrine he's a learned man and so if he's on and we're debating tongues he's going to get some points and some folks like you know yeah i see that i don't know that i don't know that that that that necessarily marcus or someone like that could and so i don't have a problem with bringing someone on in that regard but what do you what do you think about that um well i think that speaks to uh how a person would define platforming uh when i when i think about platforming um singularly i would see that as putting a person in a position to actually teach whether that's in uh uh uh that's if you know let's say i'm a pastor an elder at a church and then we we platform the person so that they can come to the church and teach and knowingly knowing that they are unsound that they are false teacher giving them that that opportunity to actually teach so so that would be my first uh that would primarily be the way that i would understand uh platforming that could extend to a um a platform like this uh if that is exactly what we are allowing them to do uh but if we bring them on in an effort to um to try to reach them uh i wouldn't call that platforming i would say that that would be leveraging our platform uh in an effort to try and reach the person uh with the gospel that's if that is what we are doing uh but um let me go back just a little bit here um earlier you were mentioning so because when we were talking about some of these people and what they teach and and and whether they're brothers one of the things that i think uh tell me you know how you see this but when i see people like philetus and hymenius uh alexander the coppersmith uh some of the people that paul mentioned he doesn't name them uh when he talks to the aphesian elders at my lettuce uh when he talks about these kind of people and even jude uh they were they were already known to be brothers they they were already from within the camp and and essentially they depart from the faith as as paul mentions these teacher teachers uh just they they're deceived deceiving and being deceived and and and how they lead others this uh other disciples after themselves all of this stuff but the uh the common thing is is that they they were all at one point propositionally holding to something true and they deviated from that they departed from that and they started leading others to depart from that and they fell out of uh fellowship and favor and and were even uh people were warned not to fellowship with them uh because there had been efforts to reach them um i see that as being markedly different than a person like a rogers i don't know that we can find a point of origin from which to say he was ever really among us uh when there's any history of mark is ever believing something at least you could say of hymenia is where he got away from the resurrection but he used to believe it right where that mark is ever really subscribed to what is a is a true biblical gospel where did he ever subscribe to the true biblical doctrine of god where did he ever subscribe to to to to to the biblical doctrine of salvation or soteriology my so i don't see him as ever getting away from that my only issues is is is this i don't i i don't know and so i said and i've just adopted this um i don't know um because again the possibility of him um holding on to something that he's not holding embracing something he's not really embracing meaning that he just had to know the possibilities that he just he really might be ignorant of what he's what he's holding to he may now i don't know i i don't know and again guys remember my my background also frames a lot of this because prior to me going to prison oh listen i i was i was a lot less um cordial and forgiving being there being at the bottom of the barrel with everybody else at the bottom of the barrel um has has kind of forced me to show a little bit more grace where maybe someone else would not maybe more than that than a person even deserves maybe even more than um i should do um because again i know i know how to hit um and that was my issue before i was you know i was always you know this and so forth and that ain't right even when i was right my tone uh of being you know of how i was being right um it's as though you go to the king and you can say it two different ways you can say king you're going to hell and this and that and so on so forth or uh like nathan's approach you know kind of in a in a in a wise fashion i would have been the person that listen i'm going to talk down to you and talk to you you know better right being being at the bottom being flat on your back and needing a whole lot of grace a whole lot of forgiveness a whole lot of understanding um i you guys in my head right now i'm i'm literally thinking of some some situations and some time and a particular song about a guy who was in prison singing the songs like many people don't so know my heart i'm not that person and no one wants to hear me no one listens to me and so that resonates with me and so maybe to a fault uh i'm giving a little bit more than i than i should um and so that that that might be it with me all right go ahead go ahead no i'm through that that might be with me with me i would be less gracious to a person who's teaching heresy than than i am to a person who uh uh who just merely believes it the reason is is that the person who teaches it does uh irreparable uh incalculable damage whereas the person who believes it uh is merely imperiling their own soul right and when i look at paul's attitude so for instance if you look at uh who he considered uh the false teachers to be in his letter to the gallations well those were the judy isers uh he was very clear about why he held such disdain for what they were doing uh because they were um uh they were imperiling uh the the the believers there in introducing another gospel and this started the other i notice how paul's attitude towards them because of that is i wish they would castrate themselves in all kinds of things i'm not saying the same thing but what i'm typing at it i'm putting the thumbnail together right now right you know what i'm pointing to is is that and then notice how in philippians contrast that with when he talks about there are people who preach the gospel out of all kinds of motives some good motives and and some wrong motives but then he says well nevertheless they preach the gospel his graciousness is not that the bad motives are okay too but he's like but at least though they're not preaching anything contrary to the gospel so he affords them a particular grace although he believes bad motives are bad but at least they're not preaching something contrary to gospel versus those who were paul didn't have that same kind of attitude towards those people he was like um you know if anybody preaches another gospel other than what we let him be let him be a curse uh uh they want to they want to talk about cutting a flesh so much i wish they would castrate themselves he has all these kinds of things and so i think when we think about graciousness i don't think we've got to be mean-spirited to people but we ought to i think here's a here's a good litmus for believers when you look i'm a student of church history i love it i'm a i'm a i that is where i am a nerd for sure um when i see the attitude of christians in response to heresy and false doctrine i wonder why it's so different it was so different for them that it is for us and i think i think i understand why one their love for the truth uh precipitated uh a disdain for that which was theologically wrong uh in heretical because they understood something about what it accomplishes if if i physically harm somebody it it's it's it's physical right they can be made better they can be healed uh maybe they can't but they don't necessarily have their eternal destiny in danger but if i teach somebody i could even murder somebody and it won't change any of their standing with god but if i teach somebody heresy i am murdering them eternally i am doing i am committing a capital crime spiritually that's far worse than anything that i could do so for them they saw heresy as so spiritually devastating that it just could not be tolerated right so so in as much as they had an extreme love for the truth to the equal opposite of that they had a great disdain for error i don't see that as much today in fact because our love for the truth is growing less and less so also is our disdain for error we're more tolerant of it we're more willing to be gracious we're more willing to say yeah but you know i think we're just splitting the hairs and all kinds of little things what we're not looking at is the picture of the damage that they can do because you don't get do-overs in eternity you lead somebody wrong eternally you have impacted their eternal destiny right so i i think the perspective in which we we approach this is also why our response might be a little different and i'm not questioning your response as in comparison to mine i'm just speaking in general to how the attitude that christians have towards error nowadays they're more like let me give you a real real real quick example we just did we just came through passion week and i was listening to a service a seven last words service this is true story is that every black church yeah oh man listen listen man we we we we gonna we gonna put that we gonna put that seven last word service yeah man friday night you know and and uh and that's wrong with it right but uh i knew at least four of the people of the seven people and which is why i ended up watching it uh so i knew at least four of them um one of them that i didn't know at all never heard of them before he was introduced as a baptist uh my understanding is he's confessionally trinitarian right and and uh so his words were into into into your hands uh do i commit my spirit that's what he was preaching about and and then he literally said this cori look i kid you not he says this he says really and i'm quoting it i literally having a quotation i'm looking at it right on the screen he said really what he was doing was committing his spirit back into his own hands from an eternal place and i said what hold on a minute that's right like my my antennas went out right away now so i'm literally texting one of the preachers that's there one of the one of the seven speakers like hey what's this guy's deal that's he's literally saying that he gave himself to himself essentially that that jesus is the father and the son and so the guy has a conversation with him later and he circled back around to me and said oh man yeah he he's he says he believes in the trinity to start at the other so to your question to your question he articulated uh modalism ignorantly watch this because i'm coming right back around to what where we started he literally articulated modalism in complete ignorance confessionally he believes the trinity he wasn't trying to deny any of that uh he had a very imperfect and even wrong a very heretical way of even uh christ uh describing his christology right which is wrong but if you were to ask me well how would you treat this this this brother well first of all i would still see him as a brother he he propositionally he holds to all of the essentials of the faith he's not denying any of that his his issue is is is being unlearned right but here's what i also wouldn't do just because he's a brother and just because he's a preacher i would never have him to preach for me i he could only preach for me when i am assured that he has demonstrated theologically a level of biblical and theological competency from which to be able to more accurately articulate those things because even if you are well meaning you articulate something that's wrong you don't get a do over with the hearers those people may hear that catch something different and go on into error even though you were well meaning so let me do this still be a brother i would lovingly try to do the apollos things hey man i know you didn't mean mean to do it but we've got to tighten up on our language here let me help you right so that but but i would not platform him until i wouldn't recommend him i would not affirm him as a sound preacher i wouldn't endorse him until i knew i know that he has demonstrated a greater level of biblical and theological competency that makes him trustworthy while at the same time the person is saved and and a believer in all of that let me ask you this now now just we got this we got to do okay david and i we're gonna promise ourselves this i want to go through a couple of questions and and i'm just gonna say this i'll tell the truth same as devil i can talk i can talk but i learned how to talk uh in my length of talking by reading damon's book i'm i'm neither one of us are are short in our answers so right what we're going to do is ask us to ask a couple of these questions um and so we can so we can move quickly because i gotta go 40 seconds but this but this question this first question is that one of the latest questions but it speaks to what you were just saying so obviously heresy is bad and we call out someone says keep calling we i'll keep calling out i'm sure damon will uh if i i'm not i'm not hunting for but if it comes my way i'll listen that's wrong that's wrong that's wrong so now here's the question uh i'll answer real quickly that i'll let you answer this question question is from uh ronard will god lose sheep because of heresy i say no but heresy hurt i said before at the end of every heresy there is a soul uh there might be the soul that that this heresy is being used to preclude this person from coming to christ or if the person is in christ uh this heresy can hinder this person's walk so so you don't you don't you don't minimize heresy you did you deal with it amen so let me just so how would you answer that question yeah i would probably answer it the same way i would say that the effects of heresy are not just eternal uh but they're also temporal a believer can uh spiritually be damaged and spiritually damage others like i said this brother's not was preaching and in ignorance teaching something uh that is heretical that could damage others even if uh he's a believer himself and and truly saved so so it's not just the eternal consequence it's the temporal ones as well uh not believing the truth or believing heresy uh can impact uh it may not have ultimate impact on our union but it can have impact on our communion our fellowship with god right because it keeps us from seeing him in the way that we should which does impact our worship our doxology so forth and so on yeah okay here's here's a question uh from moderator sheila she says this for you um how would you go to uh to bring it uh in an unbeliever in christ she says treat me like a five-year-old so how would you how would you go by bringing in an unbeliever in christ or matter of fact let me add a little caveat to it how would you go into bringing an unbeliever who is believing some heresies not placing faith in christ but they're also on the outside thinking of some heretical things too that they want to bring in how how would you approach that person let's say a muslim or a person who's who is family is jovah's witness and so they they've adopted some of jovah's witness leanings though they have in place of faith in christ how would you how would you approach that person yeah well i i i follow uh what what i call the oikas principle jesus would often tell people that he healed and um brought deliverance to uh go home oikas in the greek uh which uh concentrically is their immediate family uh their extended family uh and and their friends people who uh who know them intimately the way that i go about sharing the gospel is from uh for more of a personal place i i like to build a relationship with people because when you have a relationship capital with people uh they'll hear you you're credible to them even if they disagree with you right so so i tend to i tend to be more personal in my evangelism sharing gospel uh with people that i actually know that i that i have some sort of relationship with some sort of buy-in with right not from a cold turkey knocking on doors or running into somebody at the starbucks i'm not opposed to that uh if that's what you do all well and good uh the predominant way of evangelizing that we see all throughout the gospels uh and the book of acts throughout the new testament uh were people sharing the gospel with people who they knew friends family uh so forth and so on so that's the first thing is establishing some sort of relational capital uh with that person and the other thing is again i mean uh what am i being asked what what what do i say like what do i actually say to them i think everybody may have their different starting points uh with some people want to make people aware that they are sinners and apart from god or whatever or some people want to go back to before the fall or whatever uh in however i do it i am going to articulate the gospel which means that i want to make the person very clearly and decidedly aware that that they are a sinner in need of the salvation that god offers to his son jesus right and what i would do that obviously with with with love and with consideration for them i wouldn't be beating them over the head or dragging them around and trying to uh uh uh say things that are self-righteously judgmental but i would say what the bible says to them right and you know i don't understand the treatment like a five-year-old i mean talking to a five-year-old uh is is very different i mean you you um uh every five-year-old has a different uh capacity for understanding certain things right uh you know uh but at the end of the day that is what the gospel is and uh so that that's how i've always shared uh the gospel and i share the gospel with people uh a lot you know i but i do it my approach is really more of the personal way let me let me before i ask this next question um you brought this issue about oikos oikos and i got me thinking about how the jews in the old testament how there was there was restriction on what they could eat so that they couldn't they didn't go to certain people's houses and then indulge in their religion and so for you come to our house that way you'd be under the house of the god of israel right and the same thing is we we see it brought up in certain ways in the in the new testament um you are you were in an arm of fellowship for the express purpose to promote what you believe that's how that's how we should be but now if a person rejects that well then you know what kick rock and i'll deal with you but let me ask this question um some might argue that grace is bigger than the heresy what say you that grace is bigger than the heresy i mean um i'm not understanding the term bigger are they meaning uh quantitatively qualitatively i i i don't know maybe they're saying maybe maybe saying that um now i don't agree with that though that you should that that i guess let's see let's use another word um it's better to use more love um and using love and grace that can overcome the heresy uh we should have that now i'm not i'm not even saying that i'm not saying that let's just love love love love love love love love uh no matter what no um i'm this question is going i don't i don't need i'm trying to speak for them so um but i but so i guess you know let me reinterpret the question um can we get to a point to where we show too much love to the person that is either intentionally or um okay showing too much love to the person that's either intentionally or unintentionally promoting a heresy i'll say yes i i the love is not the love is not infinite that in other words yeah it's okay let's keep he's a brother in the lord and it's not that it is um it is a welcoming arm a welcoming hand into having a conversation but if you reject that within five then here comes warning and here comes the other warning after that nothing to do with you yeah well graciousness is really more of an adjective when we mean that what we mean by that quantitatively is really different from chorus anyway uh when we say gracious be gracious or show a person grace we're not even speaking about undeserved or unmerited favor being gracious connotatively is a word that we use to essentially from an adjective an adjectival standpoint uh mean essentially be kind to somebody so i think if we're going to truly be gracious in a biblical way that would include both love and truth it's not grace if it's all love no truth it's not grace if it's just all truth and not love it's got to be love and truth now someone said thank you by the way for the uh for the soup chat matter of fact all of you guys uh who have who have done so lovely r o b uh annette lorea and alfred but this question um i get where they're coming from and sometimes i'll see this that is true sometimes i uh at at this point we as believers are like bloods and crypts of la too much religious gang banging if you ask me i think sometimes we can be a little bit tribal and so forth but i think also the same time it also is necessary because i remember we had we had a preacher now our pastor was a seminary professor and so we had one of the uh the associate pastor to get up and he said that when jesus was on the cross now i'm gonna look at you and see look at your reaction when i tell you this he said that uh when jesus was on the cross one of those two thieves on the cross was a man who robbed him and his family earlier in life and so yeah that look and so everyone in the audience like huh and so we're looking and looking and looking like what in the world well needless to say we we called a meeting that monday you know on monday's you know where we are not in church on you know everybody's taking you know have a meeting on monday to discuss that what in the world where'd you get that from yeah and so he was sat down for why he was not he was not allowed to preach for a while because it gave the impression that you can make it up as you go and so you don't want to apologize for this foolishness for this error similarly out here in youtube sphere or facebook land or on twitter x twix yeah people say some things the problem is it's just not that easy to bring it back we can't sit this person down so you have to refute it that and so it might look like gang banging but remember paul said that it some of these some of these distinctions these discrepancies these factions are necessary so that you can see the true failure so i would hope this i this is what i hope and i i might be just i might be just pie in the sky i might be just overthinking this i might just be me being selfish but i think towards the middle of that conversation with marcus towards the end and we're having this conversation about tongues i hope that people could see a big distinction between who knew their stuff and who didn't that might be wrong but i i would hope that you could see that hey listen there's a difference between the two um after all the now my books aren't behind but y'all the whole set the books are still over there i got all this software all this studying i would hope that it should come if davin has a conversation with a person who is i don't know 18 year old who just got saved there should be some difference in understanding you should be able to see the difference i would hope that would be the case and i think what paul is saying is that you should be able to if you are truly in christ and you appreciate the word of god you should see the difference between sound teaching that is relying on the scriptures versus unsound that is relying on emotions he gave us some passage some things that like wait a second that's not true here's here's here's the text this is what that means this is what that means and so that's one of the benefits the beauty as a sound it sounds weird of um heresies because somebody somebody is going to be able to see wait a second that's what you just said makes no sense dr brad video dr brown talking about being slain the spirit so what are they saying now well it's not it's not wrong because the bible doesn't explicitly outlaw it wait a second so we're now we're just going off of whatever we feel like and the bible's not our guide anymore and so that's why i think heresy uh can be a good thing not that we want it but when it comes up we should be able to see it yeah yeah i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i was enjoying what you were saying and uh i didn't know if there were any any other uh questions out there i'm gonna have to do a hard stop at if i can i'm gonna do a hard stop now but i want to do this i want to i want to i want nail you down there's someone to ask a question and i think i think this merits i think this merits you to come back i think it's important the question was by one of the moderators what brought you out of oneness i think that ought to be you can answer now can i i got oh yeah we need to we need to have you back and what i want to do is how about have you back and just basically give you the floor even if it's just some week we were we recorded because i think that's a worthwhile conversation to have and why it can be harmful and then the scriptures as well now i'd love for you to ask a series of questions and and if you structure it in that way and uh you know you ask questions i'll answer uh that way you know we could get some deeper dive kind of questions and answers and responses that that might for the most part cover the gamut of what most people would be wanting to know right so yeah so uh you just let me freestyle i might leave something out that okay we'll do that we'll do that because as you as you said you know it better than than most oneness know it themselves and i know for a fact that most oneness don't even know what they believe so uh i think it'd be beneficial for them to hear it and then why it's harmful how you came out and so forth so um this was wonderful guys i think i think ultimately in the end i don't tell we've got 37 moderators on this channel we don't have that many but but they they they're all different and i like that you might you might encounter let's say sheila she might give you a little more grace than let's say um uh uh brian um you might be you dealt you'll be dealt with differently than let's say monkey moves and you will be dealt with then let's say um dine or whomever else right the the reason we're saying that is that when we we encounter people you're not going to do it the way that i do it right and you're not going to do it the way that daemon does but hopefully you do it with love with regard for one obviously the name of christ his word and then that person and i think in that order that way you don't have too much of an emphasis on the person to where you disregard the name of christ and his word and so i think if you do that i think ultimately god knows what he's doing he knows how he's using us and so forth so but as long as you're honest and true um but more than that be faithful to the text daemon i'm so happy that you were here uh i think the people loved you um it was i thought this was good so we need we need to get you back again absolutely man and i'd love to return the uh love for you to return the favor and and uh man i will come up with something i'll have you over with us at urban logia uh i think um uh this was a this was a blessing man it was a it was an honor for me to be on uh this platform with you and with your audience and having this important conversation and thank you for the gracious way that you always conduct yourself from the time that we we first talked i think it might have been about a year or so ago all the way up until today you've always been uh very gracious and patient and and and understanding uh all i've ever known you to be is is that person so uh i commend you for that can i tell everybody what we last talked about a few years a little while ago that listen guys i i'm not being messy but but it just went to my head and i don't care daemon said why are you still dealing with that i want to say the person's name why are you dealing with that person why are you dealing with that person i said i said now i wasn't paying attention as i as much as i should be and and forgive me there time i'm just now i'm asleep at the way i'm not seeing what everyone else is seeing i said uh if he's some trash on monday then and i see it on friday he'll be some trash on friday now if i get there on friday he's not trash praise god but if i get there on friday he's still some trash well then off with his head and so friday came and i saw what he said but um but now i had and i've been consistent with how i how i how i matter i even said i even told daemon oh if that person were to do what what marcus did i'll take the phone call now how we go further uh there won't be there won't be any video cameras or like that or whatever because i'm i'm not stupid i don't know what's gonna happen but uh but man listen when when when we were talking what did we talk we talked about tongues we talked about what else we talked about we talked about a few other things and it's like i got to go i got to go because this because we we were we were on that two two and a half hours yeah and we listen two and a half hours right almost right now so we got to go i got to go i'm supposed to get my little work out again i didn't do it this morning and i got to eat and so i'm gonna tell my wife is your fault that i haven't uh that what i'm supposed to do so but this is wonderful this has been wonderful y'all remember in the in the chats i have it pinned to the top go to his channel don't just go check it out go subscribe go watch the videos and so forth the brother is a good teacher even if you disagree you'll have a reason why because he's going to give you the scriptures and nothing wrong with showing your homework and you might find out that hey you know what now i agree after seeing his homework and so forth so and if it makes you want to go on search the scriptures amen damon thank you so much uh guys thank you all so much i appreciate you all being here this was wonderful um i damon even though he's got hair on his head he's all right in my book i had to overlook the hair i had to overlook the cowboy stuff uh and so other than that good brother in the lord and for the rest of you guys be good to somebody make sure you do your very best to show the love of christ someone and as well as preach the gospel win all the time be ready in season out of season in the meantime until we see again lord willing be blessed