 So I definitely recommend getting the slides. LauraRebel.com forward slash slides. I am Laura Rebel. Thank you so much for letting me chat with y'all today. That is pronounced Rebel like ring a bell. You are Spanish, you can pronounce it Ravel, my business family is from Cuba. So we're gonna talk about running your agency efficiently. Also known as how running a WordPress design agency allowed me to follow my dreams of being a musician. So I'll just get kind of a fun story part out of the way first. I have always loved music as long as I can remember. When I was a little kid, I was the nerdy child that would rewind the Disney movies over and over again. So I could pause it and write down the song lyrics and then sing the songs over and over. So I've always loved music and singing and when my family got our first computer, it was this really old school Tandy laptop. If you guys remember those and it was gigantic, even though it was a laptop. And all I wanted to do is type song lyrics on it. So my love of music and computers has always gotten all together. I was really fun that songwriting is poetry and code is poetry. So I think the world's implied it and it's really fun. And I'm gonna talk to you about how WordPress and the open source community kind of helped make it all possible. Right now, my husband and I live in Nashville, Tennessee where I'm kind of chasing the dream and going after a music career all at the same time that we're running an agency. So it's crazy, but it sounds cheesy, but I'm absolutely living my dream and we're having a blast. So quick two cents about our company. We were called Rebel Creative. We do WordPress web design and digital marketing for mostly small businesses and nonprofit organizations. So that's just saying where I'm coming from, and where our experience lies. We have been, I've been doing this full time for about six years and started freelancing as many as nine or 10 years ago back when I had just a regular old day job in the marketing department of a small business. This is a picture of us back when other people were paying our bills and we had day jobs. That was a fun time. But the story all started when we went on a tropical vacation about eight years ago. I made the mistake of reading the four hour work week. This was the first vacation we had taken in years where we didn't use our vacation dates to just visit family. We actually were on a tropical beach and reading this book all about how no problem, you can just quit your day job and have this internet business thing and then you can retire to a tropical island and life is gonna be incredible. I hope that'd be fun. And if that part of the book sounds like it would be really cheesy and salesy and kind of a turn off, it is a little bit. The first part of the book can come across as a little silly and overkill, but if you keep reading, what you'll discover is that his thesis really is all about proceduralizing and making your work life efficient and fully remote so that you have the time and the location independence to live anywhere and chase any dream that you have been thinking about. So if you guys, maybe your hobby is not music, maybe it's something else, but the whole idea here is just to give those bills paid in efficient ways so you have time to live your dream. So hopefully you guys will find something to relate to in that story. So I wanna talk a little bit about just laying the foundation for starving an agency and a little bit about our journey. First I wanna go back to the tropical beach and it looks really glamorous. It might be later, but at first it's really not. The thing that allowed us to do this and make sure that our bills were paid was being really frugal. So for example, when I started working from home, we shared a car because we weren't driving to two different offices every day. We didn't need two cars. We cut the cord and hadn't had a TV in six or seven years as long as I can remember. So we do our best to keep our living expenses low, which allows us to afford this lifestyle. So really all we need is the internet and the laptop to run our business. So it's not necessarily very glamorous and it took us a total of four years to make the transition from a married couple having two different day jobs to the same two people now completely self-employed. So our entire muscle income relies on our business. So that took four years. I went down to part-time in my day job while I started building websites for clients at first. Then when we started to feel good about that, I went full-time. It was full-time working the business while he still had his day job. And then about after two years of that, he was able to go down to part-time and then the next year we were both the full-time. So the whole transition took about four years and really thoughtful and deliberate planning. So just be thinking about that and what works right for your situation depending on whatever situation you're in if you're looking at starting an agency or growing your agency. When we laid the foundation, like I said, we try to be pretty frugal. We try not to buy a lot of things that are not essential and the same thing goes for our business. So I just wanted to list out for you guys a couple of things here that make it all possible. The main one I want to point out because I think not enough people know about this is Wave Accounting Software. It's a free accounting software, very similar to QuickBooks, but it has all kinds of amazing features that they don't charge you extra for, recurring revenue, invoicing, automatic monthly invoicing. It has mobile apps and things that connect to your credit cards and your bank accounts automatically to make the account reconciliation pretty quick and painless. So Wave Along has been saving us $30 or $50 for as long as we've been running our business. So that's a pretty great little free tool to know about. I could not live without last pass to manage all the password of the lungs. I hope you guys are using that or something similar. And another great thing I want to point out is HubSpot's free CRM tool. We have helped clients implement huge CRM softwares and waste thousands and thousands of dollars and waste tons and tons of time. And so many of these CRM platforms are absolutely the key elements that can take one employee almost a full-time job just to manage all the data entry and all the moving parts. However, HubSpot has a free CRM tool that is so intuitive and so painless and you can manage your sales pipeline and manage the status of all your leads and even your client projects if you build out the sales pipeline and customize it to your project workflow. So that's been an extremely helpful tool as well. If you're just starting out as an agency and you don't know what to do to get more clients, I'm gonna talk to you a little bit about what works for us. I don't know anything about you guys and your skills and your strengths and your weaknesses. So it might be different for everyone, but I'm gonna just tell you what works for us. We are a referral-based business. It sounds a little bit critical, but we don't really do a lot of outbound marketing. We just kind of network amongst our natural network of friends and family and clients and existing clients and past clients and have found that kind of once the ball got rolling, people have referred business to us. So really just doing a good job, doing what you say you're gonna do, keeping in communication with your clients and letting your clients know that we're committed to a long-term partnership with you and this has led to some of that referral business for us. When we first started out, social media was really important. I made one LinkedIn post about building websites and my own cousin in South Florida said, hey, I know you did that. Actually, I need a website. Great, so never underestimate how your own friends and family might be thrilled to know that you have a work-rest business. They might not even know. And you definitely always wanna under-promise and deliver and I think, you know, fortunately we've had a lot of clients come to us in a bad spot where maybe a former developer abandoned them or had stopped replying to their emails and things like that. So having that follow-through and being someone that they can really trust and rely on can be really important as well and I feel like the word amount spreads in this industry when you do that. And, you know, another thing I recommend to people who are getting started is if you really don't have a portfolio yet of websites that you can design or that you have designed in the past, you can always offer to design a free website for someone to add it to your portfolio. And my thought on that is just be really thoughtful about who you're offering to design that website for. So for example, if you know of an attorney or a CPA who has a lot of clients that are the same type of small business or organization that you wanna be working with in a perfect world, then that might be a good choice because those clients might see your website, they would be in a position to refer those clients to you. So don't just design a free website for anyone to build your portfolio, but be really deliberate about who might be a center of influence that would be really influential in recommending future business to you. So that's a strategy that has been really helpful for us as well. And a lot of our friends and family ask, are you worried about slurs days and all these other kind of do-it-yourself website platforms? Don't be worried that you're not gonna have enough business or that everyone's gonna wanna do that themselves. And to be honest, no, we don't really worry about that. It's always good to stay up to date on the competition and what your competition is doing no matter what business you're in. But if a client comes to me and says, hey, I was thinking about doing this project myself, shouldn't do it myself, should I have you do it? You know what? I tell people like that, right? You can do it yourself. I'm self-taught learning WordPress. Come on down to work camp, hang out, learn everything you can. It's just gonna take time, you know? So if that person has the time to spend and the time to tink around and the time to learn this software, that's great, they should absolutely do that. That type of person will most likely not be the ideal client that pays your bills as someone who's running a business. You're looking for the type of person that knows their time is better spent running their business than trying to do everything for themselves, right? So I always encourage those kinds of people to do it themselves if they have the time and refer them to work camp and some other great resources and even help them get started. That's the great thing about this community. We really don't do any cold or outbound marketing. In my experience, I have found that it's so hard to differentiate yourself from all of the spammers that are constantly doing cold outbound marketing in this industry in particular. So we really haven't done a lot of that. We've really just focused on centers of influence, adding value to people with no expectations of anything in return, just trying to be a good person and add value and just cultivating a solid reputation. I do wanna talk a little bit about the sales process when we get a new client. Actually, I just attended Chris Lima's talk about scoping a new commerce project and for those of you who are not in that talk, I would definitely recommend making a note to catch it on WordPress TV later and or checking out his slides because the questions that he walked through are actually with very few exceptions, all those questions would be really great for any web design project. So I absolutely wanna go home and make a list of all those questions to start asking clients on those new phone calls. That was a really great presentation. The main thing I wanna point out about our sales process is we definitely wanna ask a lot of questions to make sure we have a full understanding of the scope of the project. We want to first let them tell us what they need, let them tell us about their organization, but then you also wanna be sure and just take a minute and tell them your story so that they understand you're a real human with thoughts and feelings and you're running a business and tell them your story and what's unique about you and how you're different and just start to establish that human connection at the same time you're establishing that business relationship. And the biggest area for us that we've had to start to define boundaries and the biggest sticking point for most of our web design projects has always been about the content. It's a lot of clients don't necessarily understand that the content is going to ultimately fall on them unless they handle a copywriter. One of my favorite podcasters named Shawn Woods has a saying where he says, designers, designers design content. Designers don't create the content. You know, you're hiring me to design it but I don't know about your business. I can't write your about us page. The clients really need to be the one to do that and so I'd like to start to make that clear to them in this very first sales call and ask them what's the status of your website content? Are we moving over the content from your old site verbatim or are you gonna be refreshing it or rewriting it or is your old website a mess? Do we need to go through a little bit of a consulting process? For me it helped you reorganize that content first. All those things are definitely gonna affect the price and you also want the client to start to understand how much work is gonna be required on there and as we work together to establish a timeline and a price and all those kinds of things. And we always follow up with a formal proposal in PDF format. We make sure to outline everything in that proposal as clearly as we can. We get as granular as this is how many pages are included and if you need to go over x numbers for additional page make sure to have a footnote about this doesn't include any third-party software we might need to add into your website. We really have tried to think of everything and just map it all out in that template so that there's no stone unturned so that they don't feel like they're gonna be taken advantage of and we're trying to raise the price for something later. We just try to get all that out to be completely transparent in the beginning of the process. So when it comes time to actually build your website I put the emphasis here on the word process. The biggest thing that has changed our agency life and made our process more efficient has been coming up with one process for building a WordPress website and sticking to it. I cannot recommend that enough. And I don't know if any of you guys are in the position that I used to be in or if you ever were where when I first started out doing WordPress I was so excited about all the themes that were out there. Yes, I would go on theme forest now look at all the themes and get really excited. Oh, this one's pretty long to grab that you can find the coolest, snazziest nonprofit theme that's out there right now. And that was kind of fun to shop around but at the end of the day that left me learning a whole new theme developers process, a whole new theme options panel. There's a huge learning curve for every website that we designed and it was just a nightmare as far as the amount of time in the learning curve to build every website. So the best thing that we have done for ourselves is to pick a theme platform and stick to it and process it out and do that for every website every time. So for us, we chose the studio press pro plus theme package and that gives us unlimited access to those themes that we use on all of our client sites. They have a diverse variety of themes and that really works for us. I've also heard great things about Divi. I also had a great experience with the X theme which is highly customizable. So it doesn't even matter which theme platform it's best for you. I would definitely just recommend getting a process and sticking to it. And again, when you site ground hosting there's a lot of great other web hosting companies here as well but it's just whatever posts you pick once you learn how their platform works we definitely recommend you definitely suggest that our clients let us post their site for them. It's much more efficient. It's much quicker and easier for us to have hands on that site when something goes wrong. Again, it just makes everyone's life much more efficient. And the only thing about studio press, the only thing those themes leave lacking for me and this is probably more reflective of my skill set as a designer developer. I'm not one of these hardcore customized everything developers. The studio press interior pages are a little boring. So I've found sometimes that I need to layer in something like vapor builder or some other page builder to make some of those interior pages a little more exciting. And of course we're all waiting on pins and needles to find out what Gutenberg can do and how that's gonna work and integrate with studio press as well. So that might actually end up negating my need for beaver builder for how I use it in conjunction with studio press. So definitely find a process that works for you and stick to it. A couple other really fun time savers that we like to do that I'll tell you about and some of these we've had to learn the hard way. Everybody knows to make a backup. Yes. Does everybody know to backup your backup? Yes, okay. So one other thing that I've never heard anyone suggest that I had to learn the hard way was, okay, great. You manually save the backup in the cloud somewhere and then that's over here and then your web hosting company makes a nightly backup. So I'm pretty reliant on that nightly backup for day to day tasks. And if I get one of those pop-ups, oh, you might corrupt your database, be careful. I'm usually pretty out of guard because, you know, I know I have that nightly backup. But what you don't always think about is if you just sat at your desk and did four hours worth of work for a client and you're still working and then you get that pop-up, you better not prospeed or you better pause and pull down a backup because if something goes wrong, you'll actually lose the four hours worth of work that you just did before last night's backup was made. So just being thoughtful of that as you proceed can definitely save you a lot of time and hard day as well. One other thing that's been really helpful for us to understand and just save time, especially when you're moving sites around and you have to move a site from your old host to your host, it's been a real time saver to understand the difference between the WordPress one-click auto installers and to understand the components of the core WordPress installation and how to kind of manually manipulate those when needed. So if you always use the one-click installs, I would definitely recommend going back and learning about your MySQL database, learning about that database username, password, table prefix, learning about all those moving parts and the WP options panel and things like that. Just so you have a good grasp on how that site fits together and how it works, that way if you need to move a site or troubleshoot a site, you know how to do that. And I learned all that kind of stuff at the hardware, spending long hours on the phone with whatever web hosting company I was using at the time asking why, but why, okay, but where's that, where's that? And I finally just kind of figured it out. But if you guys have any questions about that, just find me in the happiness bar and we can chat about it. Another, this is the smallest little thing but another thing that saves us a ton of time is as soon as I install a brand new WordPress website, I immediately go to WP content and plugins and delete the whole plugins folder. And y'all might think that that's weird because anyone else do that already? Yeah, I have my own plugins folder on my computer saved and I'm already pre-filled it with my 25 favorite plugins or however many that I use on almost all my sites. So then I just upload my zipped plugins folder, runs it, it takes 30 seconds and it saves me 20 minutes of install, not today, install, not today. So that's just a really quick thing that can save you a lot of time. So just always be thinking, as you're doing this process, how can you save yourself time? Never do anything manually twice, right? If there's a way to automate it, let's do it. Another thing, especially when you're working on something like studio press games, a lot of times that homepage is configured with content in the widgets. So you can import theme demo data to save yourself time but that's not gonna fill out all those little 25 different widgets for you. So if you take an hour and you're building a brand new website and you customize all those widget areas just to get it to look like the demo theme before you really get going and customizing it for your client, go ahead and use the widget importer and exporter tool to export and save a copy of all those widgets. So now next time you use that theme to save yourself an hour configuring the widgets. The same thing goes if you have top 10 favorite widget configurations that you use all the time for clients. I like to configure the content best widgets in a certain way with a bunch of different icons and a link for the map and directions and stuff. So I'll save that just so I know I can import it next time to save myself time. So just always be aware of little processing through things you can make to make your life easier because at the end of the day, if you're doing project-based pricing, that's extra time you get to live your life and do fun things. So I'm gonna quickly go over a few favorite plugins that I'm not gonna go through all of them. You got the slides here. You can download the slides at www.LawrRevelle.com or slash slides. So I do use the SiteGround Optimizer. Obviously that's just because of on SiteGround hosting. If you're on a different hosting platform, definitely optimize your site speed with some kind of cache and speed plugin. There's a ton of reputable ones out there. And I will point out the pods custom content types plugin. If you are like me, I was a designer developer who really got started just taking a template theme and customizing it for a client. So I was very intimidated by custom post types and all the customization and things that had to be built from scratch with those. But with this pods custom content types and fields plugin, it is very easy to create a new custom post type on your site. And it's very easy to then call that custom post type on the front end with something like Beaver Builder where you can just display it like any other posts. So that plugin has made custom content a breeze which just adds a lot of customization capabilities for you and your clients. So just one example is we recently had a client that needed the blog post for an actual blog but they also wanted to list activities on their website. So we used custom content type for listing their activities. And I do want to point out the AMR short code in a widget plugin. Once we get to a good known future, maybe we don't need this plugin anymore. But for now, I like to use it to add any, sometimes there's certain bits of HTML code that don't play nice in the classic page editor. So I will use this plugin to put those bits of code in a widget and then pull that widget content over to a page with the short code. So that could be a really handy workaround for like a missed one. I also like to mention, oh, use any font. If you have a client that has a very specific branding style guide and wants to match their font exactly, then use any font plugin can also be a life saver. Because not Google font doesn't have every font, unfortunately. So I want to talk a little bit about first client meeting and getting started. We have some friends that had their first child recently and jokingly, their tagline was, he's coming into our world. It's not going to disrupt their life, he's coming into our world. We don't have to change our life or evolve around him. We're gonna, it's gonna be the same, but he's just, we're just adding him into it. And that's kind of how I feel about bringing new clients into your process. They hired you to be that expert. They are coming into your process. So whenever there's a meeting, we try to be really prepared, come to that meeting with an agenda. We're absolutely in charge of leading the meeting. I find that clients come into a new web design project a lot of times with some anxiety and insecurities they don't know how it's gonna go. They've never built a website before them. They don't know what to expect. So before you can tell them what to expect, have an agenda template, be prepared. That's gonna help them at ease and everything will go incredibly smoothly, hopefully after that. I do have some information later in the slides for you for some of the checklist items that you need from them. And always ask lots of questions, always get the client's input on the timeline. The meeting schedule. And we like to create the first draft of the site content outlining with clients. Like I mentioned, the content is one of the biggest places we've had to draw boundaries with clients in the past. So in order to feel like we're still helping them through that, what we like to do is help the client through creating the first draft outline of the site. So we'll take a look at the old site, what works, what doesn't, what does your new site need? And we'll help them over the phone come up with that first draft outline. And hopefully it looks like something we're all familiar with, right? About us, meet our team, testimonials, our services, any of that kind of stuff. We'll work with them on that outline. And once the outline's done, we basically hand that off to them and say, great, now this is your checklist. This is your checklist for all the content that you have to create or refresh or rewrite. And they can then go use that as a checklist and they'll know when they're done as they now have that outline to use and work off of. So that has made things incredibly smooth for us as well and gives the client kind of a clear understanding of what they need to do for their homework before we can go any further in the design. We definitely always try to under promise and over deliver. I like to tell my clients we have a 24-hour response time in business days. That is, if it's a small task, we can usually just knock it out for them 24 hours and not regret about or try to be great about recline and say, hey, got your email and I'll probably have that done for you by Thursday. So just always responding quickly and people really appreciate that and it leads to referrals and continued business. And if you ever make a mistake, I find that sometimes you can be worried that a mistake might ruin your relationship with that client or make it really rocky. But in my experience, actually if you make a mistake and you just apologize and then think you're right, I find that actually builds the relationship and builds that trust with the client. So don't be afraid if you do make a mistake, just apologize, fix it, make it right. Usually we don't build for that kind of thing. If it's, oh, sorry, that was my fault, I'll fix it, we're not gonna build you for that solution. Those kind of things, I find can build stronger trust in those relationships. If your client's feeling like you're gonna do the right thing. So we've talked a little bit about this already, but this is definitely a big takeaway thing for me of something that I want you guys to take away, especially if you're new at building websites for clients. The content really is the biggest sticking point and that's a boundary we really have to be clear with clients about. In fact, we base all of our timelines around it. So we tell our clients, this website is gonna take four to six weeks after you deliver us all the content. So they know from the very beginning that they can't just give us, we say, okay, great, you're so good done in January, they can't give us the website content December 15th. We say it's gonna take three months, it's gonna take three months from the day that you give us all the content. Because we can't really start designing that content until you give it to us. In reality, there are some design things that can be doing behind the scenes. We can start working on their template and getting their logo in there, making sure the main menu looks nice, but there is very little we can do until we get the rest of that content. So we're very clear about that with them. Another boundary we like to set is three rounds of changes. This helps prevent a situation where you go back and forth with one client several times and then they say, oh, my boss needs to sign off on it and then the boss has a bunch of different thoughts. You know, it just encourages everyone to get all their feedback out on the table immediately and then we just say, oh, if you need more changes, we of course want you to be happy, but we just might need a charge for that if we go past three rounds of changes. And we've never had to do that, but it's just a boundary that we set that encourages people to kind of be efficient in their review and gathering feedback from their team as it relates to reviewing early drafts of your website. And I definitely recommend getting comfortable with the phrase, no problem, we can just track our time of bill hourly for that. It seems like throughout a website project, there's all these things that come up that weren't included in the project scope or the client has questions about it. Can you help with this? Can you help with that? No problem, I'd love to help you with that. I'll just have to track my time of bill hourly since it wasn't included in the project scope. Just always being really clear and deliberate about that. And we track our time of 15 minutes minimum. You know, if a client wants you to change one thing that only takes you two minutes on their website, by the time you stop what you're going to read the email, log into their website, do the things, email them back, create an invoice, fill out that invoice and email to them, and then catch the check. I mean, all those things. That's definitely more than a 15 minute interruption in your life, even if it's just a quick change that they need on their site. So we definitely go with 15 minute increments. Some time management tips that keep us efficient. I couldn't live without to do. It's just the to do list software we use to run our lives. I always eat the frog, which is just doing the most important thing first. I'm so ADD, I will get stuff just replying to the latest email that came in all day unless I really block out time to just knock out that most important project. So I'll check email first thing, make sure there's no emergencies, and then go into the zone on the most important project for the day, and after that I'll look up and check the email again and kind of triage and see what's important. But you definitely have to protect that time to make progress on your important projects. We do have a website wrap up checklist that we use with our clients. This helps keep us on track because I can't keep everything in my brain. I go through a very standardized process for every client, and there's also kind of some fun value added things you can do for them. So we always double check global friendliness, make sure the site speed is good, as well as the other plugin. And so we go through this whole process with them. And another thing we do that our clients really like is make video screen share tutorials for them that will record and then upload to our YouTube channel as unlisted videos and share the links with them. So if they have staff turnover, if they forget, cause six months goes by before they need to log in and make a change on their website, those videos just kind of leave it all there for them to learn and use whenever they need it. So we'll give them those links along with all their passwords and all the access to their website. Unfortunately, we've dealt with a lot of clients that have previous web designers that weren't as transparent and didn't give them website logins and that left them in a really bad spot. So we try to be really good about leaving clients with everything that they need to manage the website. I used to tell their clients in case I got hit by a bus, but they don't like that, and now she's come away telling them, in case, you know, someone wants the lottery, it's fine, you know. Now you have all the logins. And, you know, one thing that's really important for your business is to consider recurring revenue opportunities. Some other people have talked about that this weekend and definitely think through what's right for you, what's right for your business, what's right for your service. We do hourly searches and optimization for our clients. Our clients keep us entertained and do that for a certain number of hours for a month for them. I'm Google AdWords certified, so we can help our clients with that on a monthly basis, which are for clients for web hosting. We have some clients on proactive website maintenance agreements. To be honest, that's a missed opportunity for us that we have not done a good job with over the years and we're starting to get more into that. And in the past, we've tried managing social media for clients. Now we've kind of settled into doing more of a consulting role with that and giving them advice but letting them run with it. But really the key thing here is what's unique about you? What's your skill set? What's the technology that you're excited about learning? And how can you use that to give yourself recurring revenue so that you're not trying to go out and get new clients every single month, every time you wanna pay your bills? It's great to be diversified and it's also great to, you know, as industries change and things happen, it's great to have different skill sets that you can rely on. So at this point in the slide show, I just have some of those checklist items that I wanted to share with you guys that definitely download the slides if you wanna take advantage of these checklists. And I have some really fun additional resources here for you. I definitely recommend the Shawn West podcast. This podcast, 10 Mistakes You're Making with Clients That Cost You. This is where I got really clear on my boundaries as a designer who doesn't create content. When we first started building websites, I would just, the clients would not know how they were gonna write the content and I would just offer to do a forum to speed the project along. And once I listened to this podcast, I'm very much inclined that we had wanted to help with their content and it's definitely something I would have done pretty in the past. I was feeling good about my boundary-setting skills and said, okay, I can help you write that content but we're gonna have to charge an extra $1,500 for it. And they said, great, all righty. So that podcast might put $1,500 in your pocket and I definitely recommend listening to that. And there's some other books in here that have been really important to me over the years. I'm kind of a self-help junkie. So Big Leap, New Year, New Life is a YouTube video by Tony Robbins. It's really great for goal setting. I'm also a fan of Jeff Bezos's regret minimization framework, right? So the point of all this being efficient is so that you have time to live your dreams and do things that you're gonna regret. If you're on your deathbed, you don't wanna look back and regret not living your life and chasing your dreams and doing things that you're passionate about. So all this efficiency and running your business efficiently for me is about having time to live my dream and move to Nashville and be a musician. And we work with all of our clients remotely so we can travel and play gigs and do music while at the same time. Husbands driving down the road and I'm on my laptop filling hours for clients. So we're really there for the WordPress for making it all that possible. We're grateful to y'all for being here. I also want to go out. Shawn West is a great book about the overlap technique starting a business while you're working a full-time job. I would recommend that. And if you did not go to Tara Johnson's talk the other day, definitely keep an eye out for it on WordPress TV. Shout out to Tara. If you liked this talk and if you liked hearing about boundaries and efficient processes, she took it to the next level and has some other really great ideas for you guys. Dormant fee, which I've never heard of, but it was a fantastic idea if your client goes dormant on you to have them pay a fee to reinstate the project. She had a lot of really cool thoughts in that talk so definitely check it out. And the last piece of advice I'll leave you with is something that I believe, especially in my music career, the same thing applies to WordPress and running any business. You have to get really comfortable being uncomfortable. And I relate that to the music industry where if I go play gig as a musician in my very first coffee shop gig I ever played, I was terrified. I thought, what am I about to do to these people? I'm walking in with my guitar and how this is gonna go. Oh gosh, it's gonna be so awkward. As much as I love to sing, oh, I don't know. Is it too late to cancel it and go home? I mean, it's just so uncomfortable. And now I love it, it's what I've lived for. But the further I go along with my career, I'm always gonna be in a position of, oh no, this is the biggest theater I've ever played at. Oh, I'm terrified, how am I gonna do this? Oh no, the broadcast has to get on the radio what's gonna happen. There's always gonna be something as you learn and grow that's gonna make you uncomfortable. And so I really try to commit to being comfortable, being uncomfortable. So none of that makes sense. And it sounds really pessimistic, but I don't mean it to be pessimistic. Just, you know, I was excited about life, was learning and growing and doing new things. So I would like to keep in touch with you guys. If I have a sales fit, it is to join my email list and follow along on the musical adventure or write a monthly email newsletter about what it's like to move to Nashville and chase your dreams and be a musician. You know, we also do house concerts and we travel with Plagueis, so maybe you'll catch my band on the road sometime. So I want to stop the questions. We are definitely out of time and then I'm gonna play a song for you guys if you wanna hang around. Okay, we're out of time for questions, I guess. Sorry, too much talking. But I'll maybe grab that microphone over there and just play a song for anybody who wants to hang out during the break. Let's go to the next session.