 Let's get into the big topic Do you have a minute of course we get a lot of questions stuff like how does this kind of tech work or how does their career go Well, we do work at a tech company Angela you are a solutions architect I feel like you might be able to help I answer a lot of questions on a daily basis But there are other people that can help us as well. Maybe we can ask other redheaders We also know quite a few people outside the company who could help us along I feel like we should let other people listen in sounds like the job for a podcast Do we just like have a person just sit with a microphone talking about dev ops How do we do this? We do this all the time like the four of us we talk about the tech industry So it should definitely be unscripted. Yes fun. Yes funny all of those things. So are we doing this? I think we are I think we should I think we're kind of doing this wait wait wait wait. What do we call it? This is compiler an original podcast from Red Hat Hi, and welcome to another episode of in the clouds Listen to a podcast this time. I'm Stu Miniman your host and I'm really happy to welcome Solutions architect and co-host of the compiler podcast Angela Andrews Angela welcome back to in the clouds. You were a guest on the program back in the Chris short era So great to see you again. How are you? Oh, it's great to be here Stu. It's very nice to meet you Thanks for having me on the show Yeah, it's funny The last time you were on the program was when you were what one of the hosts of Red Hat summit in 2021 I was a speaker at that show, but of course it was all virtual last year this year We did have a smaller crew was really good to be able to see a lot of people in person But yeah, it's great to be finally meeting and talking to you know more of the Red Hatters which Gosh, I'm over a year and a half here at the company Maybe if you could Angela just you know the the trailer for compiler gave a little bit of intro of the podcast But yes, maybe tell us a little bit about you know, you your journey to Red Hat and you know What what you do on a regular basis? Well my role here like you mentioned I am a solution architect here covering the federal financial space I've been a red-hatter since May the 4th shout out to your helmet behind you and I really enjoy Engaging and interacting with my customers Couple with compiler, I think I have one of the best jobs in the world My background is as a systems administrator and I was in higher ed for 15 plus years Managing Windows Linux, you know all that and I wanted a career change back in 2018 I loved to code. I was active in my coding community So I went to a full-stack coding boot camp and at the as the end approached I was like I'm a much better sys admin than I am a developer. So I got another sys admin job and then Something happened of a fellow Red Hat accelerator Brought me, you know over here to Red Hat and it has been an adventure ever since so That's my origin story getting from higher ed to Red Hat No, that's awesome. And you know having that really practitioner experience I'm sure gives you a wonderful perspective as you're talking to our customers I tell you I've worked lots over the years with some of our government in education space And it's really interesting. I tell you in my previous world when I used to do lots and lots of interviews You know, you talk to somebody and like government or education and they'd be like, oh many times You're constrained on budget, but sometimes you can actually be leading edge on technology I had a CIO of a town that I interviewed that was just one that really stuck with me as to you know You've got so many constituents. You've got limited budget But you could do some really cool things to help, you know, the local populace Leveraging technology and of course, that's something that Red Hat, you know We'd love to be able to help our customer with those kind of things So indeed indeed it was a lot of that happening in higher ed in the higher ed space And I was happy to be a part of a really innovative Forward-moving university before coming here. So I feel that Okay, it's we were talking a little bit about, you know, things opening up a little bit You know, not just doing, you know, virtual webinars and things behind the camera or Podcasts, but you know, we've started to have some events going on What have you done? Have you done any travels recently? Any things that you've been doing? Yes. So was it the day before yesterday? I am MCD Ansible Automates here in DC That was phenomenal. The week before that I was out in San Francisco Attending Pluralsight Link. Pluralsight is the big training company And they had a really nice conference And a few weeks before that I was at Summit in Boston. So I'm actually getting my legs up under me and getting back out there more and more meeting my customers Meeting compiler fans a gentleman. I was having a conversation with him and he was like, wow, you're He said, I feel like I know you from somewhere and as the conversation went on and on he was like You're from compiler, aren't you? And I was like, yes, that had never happened before So I I think I'm going to probably hear that more now the more the more that I go out of the house People might know who I am. So Yeah, welcome. People will be hearing your voice and be like, wait, that sounds really familiar Even though I wonder one of the challenges I had When I listened to podcasts a lot of times I listened to one and a half speed So when I meet somebody in person, they sound a little bit different I had a couple of run-ins with people that I talked to it was like, oh wait No, I'm used to listening to you at a much faster speed. So let me readjust what I'm doing When we're doing video when we're doing podcast We need to keep a regular cadence as opposed to normally if you get me in person I'm going to talk a little bit faster. Oh for sure. I'm from Jersey originally. That's just how we talk So yeah, all right We want to talk to sports. So um, what I love Angela We were looking through the catalog of compiler and you have You know a number of episodes that kind of intersect with the topics that we talk about here in the clouds You know kubernetes comes up, you know cloud comes up So what we have is there's two episodes that we're going to walk through a little bit have a little bit of conversation And you know, let's see how this goes with sharing a little bit of clips So, uh, the first uh, the first episode we're going to talk about is can kubernetes help people find love We know that's true So i'm assuming this was like the valentine's episode Yes, yes, it was so fitting. It was really fitting a great episode a lot of great feedback on that one too Yeah, yeah For next year, maybe uh, you know have me on the program when you do a star wars episode because you know I wore star wars shirt when we did, uh, you know the episode for may the fourth week And as you pointed out my background, uh, you know big star wars fan here So maybe uh, if we can tee up, uh, you know the first clip here, uh, uh from uh, uh, yeah from from from the love episode And uh, then we can discuss a little bit more awesome. Let's do it Is potential success Something that people plan for in advance. I guess like I think like hypothetical success Is that something that people plan for? I hope you're not planning for your app to be Dead on arrival like I hope Right. Well, I'm not I'm not talking dead on arrival. I'm talking about like a big spike in users signing up Like unexpectedly like you're you're sort of planning for that like you're planning for something You're planning for some level of interaction with your application. That's the target that you're trying to hit Yeah, but there are times when you can't imagine Yeah, how popular your application is going to get so the infrastructure that your application is running on May not have taken that into consideration. Like you consider the the best case scenario, but sometimes The success of your application can well surpass that. So how do you How do you deal you have to have the infrastructure that can scale Cool. So one of my favorite things to talk about in the cloud space angela, right is I think if you think about the maturity of solutions overall and this word scale so scale means a lot of things to a lot of people but as i'm talking to Customers often, you know, how do they get started? And there's a real unknown as to what they're going to need and as the clip talked about How do I scale up? When do things scale down? It is one of those Key things that I need to think about when I go to the cloud and one of the benefits of cloud is I should be able to Scale things down when I don't need them. And if things go unexpectedly, um, you know, I can scale up what what what Bring us inside a little bit. You know the episode in your experiences when we talk about things like scale so When I think scale I automatically think cloud Out there in the cloud now, of course scaling happens on-prem as well, right? But cloud provides that flexibility Um and scalability that the very few on-prem Clouds private clouds can give you so at least advise you that and using that cloud You know as a data center really provides you with the capacity you need to do what needs to be done so for example in the episode As we go on in the episode you're wondering well, how does kubernetes help you find love? Well, if your app Running on kubernetes gets this huge influx of users and activity and sign-ups and you're you're planning for it But maybe you didn't realize that it was going to go viral Having your application run on a container orchestration platform like kubernetes And having it run in the cloud Can underpin and help that scale so your customers won't miss a beat They won't realize that wow I'm now here with you know, maybe thousands or maybe millions of other folks at this one particular time so Cloud really does provide that flexibility. You sometimes you can't even foresee How popular or how much? Usage your site your app or your service is going to get But running in the cloud, you know, we have to figure out the how how do we scale? definitely Cloud and containers are are those two tools that really help pave the way Yeah, well and angela you were recently at that ansible event I'm sure the general discussion of automation and how that fits into the overall discussion What was a key thing because it's We probably don't even talk about it enough, you know kubernetes is really built with automation As you know, it's not something I bolt on at the end. It's you know, we're going to have automation That's when it when I need to be able to scale it can't be Oh wait, you know some spike spike came in let's get a support ticket in and take care of it No, no, no, you're too late. You're already in in trouble. That's when things start crashing So, you know, we need the the infrastructure to be able to uh, yeah be much more dynamic We can't be waiting on people when it comes for for that kind of thing. Yeah agreed agreed and you know Again the episode it plays a funny It makes it funny and approachable and we using the dating app as an example But this applies to all applications whatever application you're running No matter what the app size you you know in the old days and I can say the old days You know, you would think about oh, I have to buy enough capacity to get me going for the next three to five years and with you know with the influx of you know, uh Services running in the cloud You really don't have to worry about those expenditures the way that you used to because sometimes you'd get them wrong, right? And you know, you'd run out of storage. You'd run out of capacity and I think um Moving into this new paradigm not even a new paradigm But this shift has really given people the flexibility that we didn't have, you know, 15 20 years ago Yeah, uh, it's interesting. I see a couple of comments coming in there. There's one that, uh, you know, I want to want to bring up It says eks or on-prem Kubernetes, uh, which one is better and angel, uh, yeah, I'll start just you were talking about that flexibility Here's one of the things, you know We as people tend to be really really bad at forecasting the future So, um or the weather. Yeah, or so so you know Hopefully I have a relatively good understanding of what my infrastructure and applications look like today But if you try to plan out, hey, what are things going to look like in one two three years out? all I know is We keep adding things and we need to be able to have flexibility and that's So, you know, we can all debate how much we're going to move to the cloud. How much is going to stay in the data center The reality is and I did an ebook on this last year is your environment is Hybrid today, which means I have lots of environments and you know, you want to talk about scale Let's start putting the edge into scale. Um, you know, you I'm sure you saw it summit We had a big announcement with general motors I didn't interview on on this program a couple months ago talking about You know the space station and satellites and some of the edge deployments we have so You know even more hybrid and more things that I need to be able to do and kubernetes Is being built to be able to handle all of those environments So I don't look at it as an either or it's the data center the public cloud Of course from a red hat standpoint, you know, we strongly believe open shift is the answer to help you In all those environments, we can live side by side With what if you're using eks and we've got tools that can help in that environment and I'll let you chime in too. Yeah Well, you know to the question, um, you know, which is better It depends your organization your environment Uh, your applications your user base where they're based, you know, if it's a global company You know, how is on-prem handled if on-prem handled, um, but if you have the cloud You can put your data closer to where your folks are and with the incoming, uh, edge solutions You know, it doesn't have to be a brick and mortar building if your customers are in the middle of a desert or in a hospital getting your data and that and that, um Compute next to your customers. So their response time for whatever applications they need to use in their day to day It doesn't matter. Um, so it depends it. It's really a personal or a business Decision Yeah, and I think this actually tees up nicely the the second clip that we have, uh, you know from the episode about Uh, you know meeting user needs and dynamic infrastructure. So let's see that one up So I think we kind of talked about some of the use cases the kind of fear of success use cases where maybe you've already built The application and you kind of get that viral moment where people are coming to your platform Logging in trying to use it and you want it to scale and stay up another big part of the story though Is about supporting innovation and time to market and a lot of that relies on that same level of standardization And dynicism with your infrastructure. So in this case if you have a lot of different ideas, especially in these emerging, uh, user experiences People are trying different ways to connect with customers and users Trying different features experimenting It's important to have a platform and infrastructure that platform that can support that experimentation in that innovation And with a proper approach, you can really accelerate both your time to market and the ability to experiment with these different features and user experiences Really cool. And then there's uh, uh, there's a comment from duane here that if we pull up too It said so scaling properly should match an ROI for a customer, which is an interesting comment I love your thoughts on it angela because you know We need to think about architecture and what costs are when we go to a cloud because all of a sudden if we get You know a ton of You know things scaling that is going to cost us more Yes, there needs to be some connection between that The cost and hopefully some value to the business or revenue stream that we have Because you know, we don't want our cost to be going through the roof if our you know revenue isn't changing Exactly. So to duane's point, it should really match, you know It should match what the business needs are if your business doesn't require that level of availability If it doesn't require that level of redundancy you really can Be very prescriptive in how you keep your costs down So if it doesn't allow for it, why would you why would you want to spin up an amazon, you know type application when You may have 2000 3000 customers It doesn't make sense you architect properly for for the number of users and your customers And you have that scalability in in that particular uh in that particular instance It's not all apples and apples. It's apples bananas oranges. It depends That's that's one of my favorite words as an essay. It depends. Um, but so yeah that it really it really Matches what the business needs are versus scaling and having all of this infrastructure available Just for the sake of having it Yeah, I mean angela, it's such an important thing you bring up because if I think about you know cost management from a customer standpoint The challenge in the data center was how much do I buy? Did I forecast properly because I really understand what my costs are going to be The challenge in the cloud is how do I architect things and do I understand? The architecture and what that will mean to the cost because there's nothing worse than oh wait I got the bill for last month and something went haywire and didn't realize that you know thousands of dollars more That I wasn't expecting so getting that under control. I I think there's there's more more tools in place. There's the general You know approach of like fin ops to help customers With that, but it is something that you know, we've reached a certain maturity But there's still There's still a bit of a picness when it comes to the cloud so many times I had somebody on my team architected something and he's like Well, I understand about three quarters of it, but I need the next bill to come in before I really understand Whether I did things right so And that that is so that is such a real world Example think of a lot of companies are having these same discussions Especially in that first iteration when you're when you're architecting it out and you're trying to get a feel for Well, what will this look like? It's really hard to guess Those ingress and egress charges how much storage you're going to use How much actual capacity you'll need from one day to the next one hour to the next and sometimes Unfortunately, you know and in this current model we kind of cross our fingers and we wait for that first bill and hope we got it right I mean Forecasting and trying to figure out billing in in the cloud is challenging for everyone So, you know, no one's alone in that but you really do have to understand again your workloads and What your overall costs are and you really try to do your best to do the math And stay within those constraints because I've heard those horror stories about those bills You open up your email and you know Your soul leaves your body because you didn't realize just how expensive it was going to be so that's a real real fear All right, and if I have it right from from the episode the connection to love was We're talking about a dating app. Is that is that correct? Yes. Yes So, I mean how cute was that right? It was it was so fitting for valentine's day You know, if you're looking for love and you know, you're out there scrolling trying to find that match You're quite possibly Your dating app is running on some sort of container orchestration, especially when you know As it said in the episode what time of day are the most popular times of days You know and you want to make sure that your application Is responsive to the east coast and as that as the sun moves You know that witching hour or whatever that is on these apps And I'm sure they have the metrics to this to see when are our users most active You want to make sure that their experience is as seamless and as snappy as possible whenever they're using it Awesome I think that's good time to bring up the the last clip that we have for this episode as to You know meeting the unique challenges of businesses. Okay You're always making changes to help users, but you're also going and saying, oh, you know This there's a bug in this software or there was a bug that could be a security issue in this software I need to roll it out and containerization and standardizing how you roll out this software Is a great thing for that because if you're really good at rolling out software It's no big deal To fix to update the dependency run it through your automated test system and roll it out to production in a safe and reliable manner Because you're doing that five ten a hundred times a day. So that kind of repetition. That's one way that containers help security We discussed new features and how important it is for them to deploy quickly Clayton says kubernetes can help coordinate things like bug fixes and feature rollouts You know, usually when you've got a big new feature and there's you know There's different types you got a little bug fix on a single page of the website and then you've got I'm adding video chat That's a big feature. You might need 10 or 15 people working on it That's a new service And it might be loosely integrated and one of the things about kubernetes that makes it really powerful is yeah kubernetes is helping You roll out bug fixes to your existing stuff But if you've got a completely new type of function like a web a video chat And that's a new team and a new service That team can kind of onboard and they can be testing video chat Before everybody sees it. So, you know kubernetes lets you get the environment set up And you can go be testing it for a limited set of users like your beta users or your internal users Well, yeah Um, it's interesting stuff. Yeah, I mean one of the things when I uh, I always hear from my security friends is You know, how do we get better at getting people on the latest uh technology? So, uh, you know We we can't be you know too far behind on the patches and especially that's something that you know We at red hat spend a lot of time, you know at linux at kubernetes to make sure that we're You know, not just pushing people to the latest version But if there are bug fixes that we need to have we backport that and that's one of the key key things that people come to red hat for And you know as Clayton said if containerization and you know, um dev ops really makes that possible Having that ability to update the small things when the big things come along You already have that muscle memory. You know the process of Rolling out a bug fix. Um It just makes it easier because now it's almost like second nature. Um When we're talking about those new features having the ability to run your test and prod and stage On the same platform where everything looks the same everything feels the same And having it work its way through those different stages is integral, you know, you want Uh a smaller subset of users Getting their hands on these new features And you don't want it to impact, you know, the the rest of your production or the the rest of the development innovation That's going on so it containerization and kubernetes Really makes this possible because it's not like the old days where to do an update You know, you'd have to plan for months and you couldn't do a lot of updates and you had to patch once a quarter No dead that we don't do that anymore in in this new, you know With dev ops and with containerization and kubernetes. No We have it as a process and as long as you state That's how we keep our system safe. That's how we keep innovating and bringing out the new hotness. That's And angela it's interesting because you know kubernetes is not some, you know magic wand that solves everything I was actually I was getting to listen to some customers that were using some Other kubernetes solutions out there and I was a little bit disturbed because they said well We had the developers there do their things in their environment But then when we want to take it into production We need to go You know add the you know identity management security and all these other things and it was a big process and lift that they had Which is not You know just philosophically how we approach things is we want your development environment should look like your production environment Because otherwise that's where we had that schism between. Oh, I threw it over the wall and something didn't work right Or it wasn't how I expected it's like no no no as you said today's environment It's you know dev and prod, you know We should look the same we should act the same and it should be there You know that the whole dev ops movement was to bring all of those pieces together and bring dev sec ops ends that We're thinking about security through the end not Oh, okay, we did our development now. We need to go through everything else. No that takes too long It doesn't it is wasted effort That that we we need to worry about so it's cool and it sets up We're going to transition to talk about the next episode one of my favorite topics Is just innovation, you know It's when we think about the cloud, you know the cloud It's supposed to get us away from some of the undifferentiated heavy lifting so that I can focus on That that that innovation that I want to create and we're still we're getting there You know when I think about overall, you know, how much time do companies spend on you know the the toil You know it used to be wiring things up and you while you might not have the physical You know cabling in plugs anymore Sometimes in the cloud you can do some of the same things that I'm doing the same efforts over and over Rather than worrying about the specific business things I have so Let's tee up the first clip. We'll get into a discussion of you know innovation This episode is how bad is betting wrong on the future. I really love this episode. This is a good one This is a good one Well, let's talk about the future a little bit here You sure right because this is something that you know, we have to make decisions here and now and a lot of those a lot of the decisions that we have to make about You know the products that we're building or the technologies that we're using We have to be able to look out into the future and make a really good guess about what the future is going to be And this is really difficult, right Yes, I know it is because you can there there are companies who You think about it. They have this product that is Tends to become ubiquitous And they do just one thing I don't want to say wrong but kind of Going away from where people think technology should go You're heading in the right direction, but You make one false move And you've definitely fallen off a cliff. So it's it's nice to be able to Kind of foreshadow, but there's really no way to know because We all want to be innovative, right? We all want to be on the cusp of the next big thing, right? And How do we don't know what that is? So someone's going to take a bet on something And they're going to lose that bet and that has to happen I think in order for technology To move in the right direction I don't I know if it doesn't sound like it makes sense, but someone has to lose in this scenario because Every good idea can't be the right idea, right? So that's just my opinion about it. There has to be some winners and losers when we're talking about the future Yeah, uh, angela, there's there's a line. I've I've been using probably for like the last five years is You know, I when I think early in my career it was You know, I should have started something on a year ago or adopted some technology a year ago But I didn't so let me start now Where it is flipped that things are changing so fast that hey if you could wait another six to 12 months There'll be a next iteration of something or some other new technology that I might want to be jump on But I can't wait forever So I do need to start with what I have the here and now and go forward. So, you know When is the technology mature enough to make a bet on it? You know, how important is that? In the overall decision, you know companies today In in general seem to be a little bit more willing to bet on Something that, you know, isn't tried and true for decades because you know, otherwise You're going to be left behind if you can't make some bets And move forward to take advantage of newer technologies I mean, I think every successful company with a successful technology Product or service can probably relate to this and they're swimming along They're owning their market share for whatever space that they're in And something comes along and they implemented it test they test they do the due diligence And when you go live your users aren't responding to it in the way that you expect it, right? So Think around the same time. What if you're one of your competitors is in the same space and they're doing similar things? And they come along with a new technology product or service and they get that buzz But you watch your users They stop interfacing with you. They may be moving on to this other feature other service and You're now in the position of where it talks about falling off this cliff How do you future proof against falling off the cliff? The first thing is you have to be nimble and how do you be nimble? You have to take some risks, but you definitely do it with open source. So I think There's there's a lot of pieces in there Where you have to be able to iterate and use those tools that are out there You have to listen to your users. That's a huge part of it. Um, but I I love the falling off the cliff metaphor because You know, we want to get close. We want to see over the edge We want to see how far we can take something but Sometimes we have to take those bets And if we're lucky and and I think you're here this later on in the episode where if yours If the bets you're taking are much more iterative and not jumping ahead where you could possibly do yourself damage There's there's a lot of different nuances in there Um, but this episode talks about all of them. So make sure you listen so you can get Some of the good tidbits that our guests were so happy and willing to share with us. So yeah, yeah, angela You know, I I when I think back earlier in my career Um, you know, if you were working on a piece of software and you were on an 18 month release train So much relied on things going right did I get the right feature because if you didn't get on that train It was real trouble or if something didn't work, you know, then we were struggling and things light up Today, you know, most people are in more of a kind of a cicd environment. So I can do smaller increments I can have more experimental features that are out there. Um, and you know, one of the balances we see is Um, I can actually have speed while not Being less secure. So that that was the thing that, you know, we really look at the the whole dev op space And what's happening here is I can move faster, but I can do it safely I can do it reliably if I have the right processes if I have the right culture in place And I do love your call out for for open source there, of course, you know, at red hat We're heavily involved and you know, there's so much when I look at in, you know The the cloud native environment that, you know, I live in uh being part of open shift, you know It's still like at least once a month. There's some new project coming up that's like, oh geez I've never heard of that. You know, we need to evaluate that. Do we participate in it? It is something that we will pull into our product line And that's something that that we constantly need to look at Because to your point too, if I can't respond to what my customers need Somebody else will so whether it's something that'll be additive to your product or Eventually if there's enough drift, they might leave you to go to something else and it in general is easier To make those moves today, you know ever than it was before All right, so yeah, you bring up Not making, you know, don't have to make huge bets But if I can do it more incrementally or smaller that that that tees up the nest next to it nicely Oh cool Bring this to life for us Kim a little bit. So he's talking about doing these What he's calling cheap experiments like what like bring that to life for us It's kind of like earlier when I was talking about buying a testing environment for your applications And I'm definitely not the expert in this but I think what he's trying to get at is that a lot of founders get into a situation where they have not a plan But a list of desirable things that they want to do and a list of things that they need in order to do them And they kind of go from there So you want to do something as cheap as possible and as fast as possible You don't want to blow your budget on something that only gets you from point a to Not point b you want to get to the next step to development and eventual release as soon and as fast as possible So some of the examples here he talks about prototyping and testing It's something that's really important because you also need to know What your user wants just trying to find out the deliverables and the functional requirements you have listed You have to find out what users want and match those up to what you want to deliver Great segue Yeah, and so many so many thoughts going through my head here angela because right on the one hand I need to be able to test things and it needs to be okay to fail if there's a feature that's not going to work You need to be able to pull the plug You need to be able to you know, let a thousand flowers bloom to understand where the the proper advancements are On the other hand If customers start using things you need to be real careful that you're not pulling things away that they might want You know, there's certain technology companies that get a bad rap for deprecating technologies that that that people want. So it's an interesting balance, you know failure needs to be okay But you know how we do that needs to be done with proper consideration That's true. And you know as an open source software company I think red hat really toes that line well with making sure that We're innovating and we're trying to give our customers Exactly what they need and like you mentioned in the last segment about having the ability to You know, look at all these projects coming out here and picking and choosing which ones will give our customers The the bang for their buck that they would really really love But we have to tow that line because you know, everything isn't for everybody We want to make sure that we're making the smart bets on anything that we bring into our software We want to make sure that it has a nice Life cycle because we want to make sure that's one of our tenants, you know You know rel and its long life cycle We want our customers to constantly have innovation But they need a stable platform on which to be able to move and operate. So it is a really Very fine line, but I think this company does a really good job in in handling that Yeah, it's uh, it's kind of chaos in many ways out there And I saw a presentation from red hat years ago before I joined red hat that just if you look at the You know the churn in code that happens in linux and java and kubernetes and so many of our spaces It is the drumbeat of our industry is that that constant rate of change Yes, and red hat really thrives in that because you know at at the core of it You know our our executive team always says, you know, we're not here to create ip We are here uh to everything we do goes upstream. It's that commitment to open source So it's not that hey, we created some cool technology and you need to use it All of our products are based on community open source projects. So there's users involved There's that feedback loop with everyone there. So it's not us just saying hey, you know, we created this cool awesome widget Everybody should buy it. It's we are contributing as part of an overall community Where you know, there are many users involved in real business challenges That that we are trying to help meet and we know that we are a piece of the overall puzzle even when You know, there's plug-ons and add-ins and a huge isv ecosystem out there So that you know, we are not trying to sell you just a stack It's we have a piece of your tool chain We want to help give you frameworks and environments so that you can get You know all the things you need because every developer has their own special things that they also want to use And we don't want to limit Their ability to create and to innovate Exactly and we do a really good job with our partners with Um Integration making sure that a lot of the disparate moving parts can talk together and can communicate together So we play well and I think that's really a hat tip for red hat as a whole We don't come in here heavy-handed and telling you that this is how it's done We're listening to our community our fingers are on the pulse of the community red hatters are a part of those communities Where this code where this these projects come in so again that is really um, one of the the you know What's the i'm trying to find the right word for it, but that's like the sweet spot That's like the money shot And angela you you bring up the key point because on the one hand customers do want our opinion We've got so many customers. We've learned from what we're doing. So in many ways You know the opinionated approach that we can give them and give them guidance But also with the flexibility so that if the customer has specific requirements or wants to go slightly different than what you know Kind of the best practices. Well, that might make sense for them and that is You know because our technology is very much our horizontal plays So we have so many customers and so many different verticals with so many requirements So, you know one of your federal governments that need to do something completely disconnected with all of their certifications You know might be very different from You know some just enterprise that's out a little bit more Doing things, you know in the public cloud and leveraging all those services. So it is it is challenging Um, and I think it actually so it tees up if I look at the last clip here We talked a bit about forecast and we talked about looking at the future and innovation So how how do we think about that approach? And what can we do to to kind of move things forward rather than having to take giant leaps Yeah, so let's hear that next clip. Let's hear it I think it's important to understand that There are practices in place to get from zero to accruing altitude kind of in a metaphorical way very quickly There are practices that you can employ to find out what the people that are going to use your app What do they want the people that are going to use whatever product you're trying to build? What do they really need? What is it that's going to make them, you know Choose your product amongst a host of other ones that are being offered to them to me. That's part of Trying to break down the future and trying to get away from this crystal ball mentality and going towards a what I call hopscotch mentality where you're getting to The next small kind of like milestone. Yes at a time exactly Love the metaphor it it really brings the point home about innovation and being intentional about where you're going so You know the the crystal ball method Trying to figure it out and look so far into the future That's someone's doing it But everyone can't do it because that's where mistakes happen That's making those small bets is what we're looking for those little hopscotch moving to the next square a little bit of iteration Slight innovations moving forward pushing that needle. That's how it changes. So I really do love that metaphor The hopscotch mentality because you get pretty far that way because sometimes that leap forward It'll knock you further back. So great great metaphor. Thank you kim for bringing that to us It is really a gem and it's it's a it's a way that I think a lot of Organizations are thinking about how they innovate Yeah, and just a comment I'll make angela You know sometimes to be able to make a breakthrough you need to be able to do something significantly different But that doesn't mean that I have to take it all at once. So You know if I look in a software world, you know, I can have that sandbox environment where I learn a technology and I start to adopt it because Here's the thing. We know it would be really nice to say with the cloud Hey, you know, let me just throw a few dollars and wave a magic wand and in a couple of weeks I will have everything be digitally modernized and it is totally wonderful We know that this is a journey that we work on we have customers We've been working with for years in their overall journey And we talk about where they go So once again, these are journeys we're going on. So number one that means it's a continuum and number two means Hey, you know, let's be realistic understand what can be done, you know, how we need to, you know, most companies We need to be the analogy there was being at a cruising altitude Well, sometimes you need to be able to change an engine, you know, while the plane is still, you know Flying at full speed. Um, so that is not something that would be simple It'd be nice if everyone we could start without any legacy baggage or any technologies and start with the future But, you know, that's absolutely us, you know, something we need to think about as to how we can make changes and, you know, modernize While doing it in a proper way Yeah, sometimes you do need to change the engine. I like that one at that cruising altitude. Um, I mean Open source and, you know Kubernetes and the topics that we brought to the show today Are really the backbone of how a lot of organizations are doing business and It just so happens that we work for a company that, you know Does a lot in this space with OpenShift, but across the board It's just the way that doing business makes sense, you know Everything can't be in the cloud. We understand that everything can't be You know, the The highly scalable highly available because there's cost to consider. There's so many things That has to be a consideration But I think when you work with with kubernetes and in this in this technology in the cloud space It really does give you the room to iterate and make those changes They don't have to be earth shattering changes But if you're moving your if you're moving your company and your organization forward and you get the benefits of an opinionated You know product like OpenShift, but it allows you to you know, it comes with the batteries But if you want it to switch out parts, that's great too So I think customers really do like the flexibility on prem cloud private cloud public cloud This tool that tool these are the things that are helping us to stay innovative as a company and helping our customers do the same Awesome. All right. So so angela. I really enjoyed going through those those couple of episodes Some fun topics some deep stuff Tell us a little bit, you know compiler. How do you guys determine? You know what topics you have Any upcoming episodes that you're aware of that that we can share with the audience? Oh gosh so Well, how the show is done how the sausage is made is we have a crack team of producers Kim Wong, Yohan, Philippine, caroline craig head. They make the show sing Me and my co-host Brent uh, seminoe. We're just they're Just trying to make them look as good as possible because they do a lot. They do the research They interview the guests they come up with these really important topics Some of them come in through emails. Some of them come in through DMs on social media And and they have their own ideas. So this really is a show for our listeners We we really listen to our listeners. So we always have that call to action We want to know what you're doing or what you think because You know We're doing this for them, right and our and our producers are putting in this great work And doing this great content because this is what folks want to hear and this is what folks are talking about um, one of the next episodes that I love love love love We were going to call it the f-ups episode But I think legal was not feeling that so we called it making mistakes Well, we're having an f-ups episode part two So if you enjoyed the one last week, which was filled with to me The some of the funniest anecdotes anecdotes of people screwing up in their environments and being okay To make those mistakes and feel safe and not have that terror of losing your job There's some that last week's episode was super funny. I can't wait for part two. That one's a good one That that is awesome. Yeah, Angela. I tell you when I would talk to practitioners and got the chance to interview them Um, one of the most valuable things is like, hey, right? If you can look back where were their mistakes or something you've done wrong or things that can you tell your peers about that? So having that that f-ups as you said is really good because hey, you know One of the things about the internet and open source communities is hopefully we can learn from the mistakes that what that we We we that others have had so, uh, you know so much there. Um Yeah, um, I think we're getting close to the end There was a dildo cartoon that you'd asked to to bring up related to architecture. So So that I would love to so there was a phrase used that I'd never heard the phrase before it was architecture and it's kind of like a dig at a company or product or something where It's really not all it's cracked up to be the marketing literature the speak It's it sounds like it's the best product since sliced bread But it really isn't and doing doing good products. Well is really hard And you know, there's this dildo cartoon that I saw where There was a director of architecture and he had a slide behind him that said being good It's overrated and so it was just like it's so funny how sometimes when it can be a catchy phrase or Something that catches your eye and it looks like the new hotness and then when you peel back the onion You're like, oh, this is trash, you know, so architecture is just one of those really We talked about it in the episode where it's it's not all it's cracked up to be So you really have to know what you're looking for when you're shopping around Oh my gosh Angela so, you know that that that comic strip goes back to 2009 Which was probably before we even had the term cloud washing Which was in the early days of cloud every oh cloud cloud cloud You you'd see a company come out and they put out their things and it was like Wait, what do you actually do? So you're right like understanding, you know, is this vaporware? Is this something that they they just have a market texture or is this something that we can actually deploy? So, you know, one of the things I love about red hat is, you know, we are, you know, real techies in the weeds You know, I've got one of the few shows that isn't, you know Showing you command line and demos and everything you have there. So, you know red hat, you know, even, you know Those of us that are in and with the marketing org, you know There has to be the technical foundations and the basis of everything we do so We we yeah, so totally agree and understand that, you know, we want reality And we want to be able to help customers deploy You know, it's okay to say directionally where things are going but if things are totally a market texture where There's no substance behind it. You know, that can be a challenge For sure. Cool. All right. So for this episode, I think we're getting to the end So, of course, make sure to smash that like subscribe and share Options here for compiler, of course, you can get that where you find all of your favorite podcasts Angelo, I'll give you the the the last final words is to, you know, people if they want to learn more connect and share with the compiler crew Awesome. Well, the links are in the chat. You can go to compilerpodcast.com to get an idea of Our podcast they come out every two weeks. I think we're going to take a break maybe a one month break for the summer But again, we come out every two weeks with new amazing episodes again with me and my co-host Brent Siminoe Go you can hit us up on any social media using the hashtag compiler podcast We definitely look at those we meet some of the coolest people through that hashtag And you can find me on twitter at scooterphedics Talking about all things tech and other All right. Well, Angela, thank you so much. Yeah, and to that point, you know, this show runs every two weeks on on thursdays typically Oh, we might have, uh, you know, what one or two, uh, you know pauses in the summer just because You know, there are some of the the general vacations And the like and lining people up sometimes can be a little bit But Angela, pleasure talking to you. I hope to get to cross pass with you at one of the events coming up in the near future Awesome. All right. So make sure next thursday. Listen to that next episode. I can't wait to hear what you think Thank you. I appreciate you and thank you everyone for joining us on your journey in the clouds