 All right. Thank you very much. All right. And thank you all for this opportunity to join you today. So as Joan introduced, I'm Jay Bruder, Social Director of Digital Scholarship, Infrastructure and Services in the McMaster University Library, and also the Admin Director of the Lewis and Ruth Sherman Center for Digital Scholarship. So it's my pleasure today to take part in these activities and talk about some of my experiences building a comprehensive digital research support in a research intensive university and reflect on the role that our Digital Scholarship Center and the Library has played in this important work. And before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge the land from which I present today and the peoples who have long lived in balance with it. I joined today from McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, also known traditionally as the Haroon Wakoon, which is within the lands protected by the dish with one spoon wampum, an agreement between the Haudenosaunee Confederacy and Anishinaabe nations to ensure that those who live here take only what they need, leave enough in the dish for others and keep the dish clean. I would also note that this agreement precedes settlers, so I can't assume that I can take part in the resources being shared, but it's always an important practice to abide by the existing treaty and wampum responsibilities in the place you live. So today in today's presentation, I'd like to tell the story of two initiatives that I've been fortunate to participate in and are near and dear to my heart. One of them is the Lewis and Ruth Sherman Center for Digital Scholarship, which is a joint venture between the University Library and the Faculty of Humanities that's been raising the profile of digital scholarship, and I love the definition that Jones provided earlier, and meeting researchers' needs over the past 10 years. The other is a fledgling initiative here, which the library is involved with, called the Digital Research Commons pilot or DRCP, which aims to build a more connected and coordinated approach to digital research support broadly across campus. Both have a research support mandate, but as I'll discuss over the slides to follow each is approaching the challenge from a different entry point and scale. So if you haven't guessed already from the title of my talk, I'll be using the wheel as a metaphor while I introduce some common themes between the two initiatives. I particularly love this metaphor for the work that we're doing because for a wheel to get you to its destination, all of its pieces need to be tightly coordinated, even if they're doing slightly different things or serving different purposes. And some of the interesting things that happen when you strain this metaphor to large complex and dynamic higher education institutions, some of the things that happen is you start asking yourself questions like which part of the wheel are we actually building? How do we put this together while the horses are already running out of the stable? How many wheels does this thing actually have? And many more. So before I get into some of those deep existential questions that probably no one is asking, I would like to give you a brief introduction to the Sherman Centre and the Digital Research Commons pilot. I'll describe their work a little bit and then reflect about how the successes and challenges of the former has really guided the direction of the latter. So to give you a quick overview of McMaster University, so it's a relatively large research intensive university in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. It's home to about 33,000 students. It has six faculties or colleges and a medical school. And as we like to tout when speaking of ourselves, McMaster is highly decentralized with both central and faculty-based research and IT support units. So it's a complex environment to provide support and to get support as well. The Sherman Centre itself is an official McMaster Research Centre. It's located physically within Mills Memorial Library here at McMaster. It was established in 2012 through a collaboration between the Library and Faculty of Humanities with a gift from the Lewis and Rue Sherman Foundation. The Sherman Centre's mission and audience has always been defined broadly beyond the Faculty of Humanities. Our founding document describes it as a campus-wide resource that fosters library, faculty, collaboration, and interdisciplinary digital research and scholarship. And so we do this by providing infrastructure expertise and opportunities for collaboration. And the idea and vision is still very relevant to what we do today. And even its high-level objectives have remained relatively the same. And to state all this really succinctly, we try to support all forms of digital scholarship we engage with and bring together communities through our programming. We promote resource sharing through collaboration and we maintain platforms for open scholarship, digital preservation, and knowledge dissemination. And we do all of that through no feat of magic, but through the hard and groundbreaking work of all of our Sherman Centre staff as well and the colleagues with which they work closely beyond the library. But we always weren't such a large group. Much of the existence of Sherman Centre, it was about three or four FTEs that were dedicated to it any single time. And there weren't really significant champions across campus either. So in that way, it was a hub that needed spokes. We achieved this over time through a commitment to engagement and growing the community. Much of our work focused on training and programming to get people in the space, introduce them to the tools and approaches they never knew they needed, and then introduce them to the people who could help train and support them. And through this work, we've built a rather large community of scholars across campus and beyond campus as well. In partnerships with research centres and institutes beyond the Sherman Centre with IT and research port units, both central and within the faculties as well. Toward the end of 2018, we really reached a point where continued growth was impossible without more people to sustain it. We needed more expertise in emerging areas like data analysis and civilization, research data management, research impact, but also more attention to coordination and communication. The spokes were being built but needed to be tied into the hub and into the rest of the wheel for it to be successful. I think as others have mentioned before, we invested so much time into the doing that we didn't spend enough time with the telling as well, and so we needed a lot of support with communication too. With thanks to the University Library for its support in this area, we were able to expand the centre over the next couple of years by reorganising units, bringing in new positions to support those areas of need, and to bring in a dedicated coordinator and communicator. We also partnered with our Office of Research and its High Performance Computing Unit to bring aboard to Research Data Management Specialists to meet the growing needs for research data management support and strategy on campus. And it was through a lot of the emerging research data management work that the Sherman Centre's efforts informed the emergence of the Digital Research Commons pilot. So four of the members of the Sherman Centre team were part of McMaster's Research Data Management Institutional Strategy Working Group, which developed in response to a policy requirement from the Canadian federal agencies that provide funding, known as the TRI agency. So this work involved collaboration with a broad set of campus research stakeholders, including researchers, faculty leadership and many other administrators and support units as well. And while the strategy development, I'd say, was a resounding success and we have an excellent guiding document, our engagements also resurfaced and confirmed the long-standing challenges of digital research support at McMaster and probably many other places as well. While its decentralisation yields benefits in terms of flexibility and agility for research support, it leads to uneven service delivery, lots of inequities in terms of what's available to researchers across faculties and roles, and it ends up with the all-too-common researcher refrain. I just don't know what's available, I don't know where to look for it, and I just don't have the time to figure it all out. And this statement and sentiment is pervasive through all of our work as well as all the preceding reviews of research and central IT that have been done over the past decade as well. And it highlights the frustrations that the frustrations are less about whether a service or resource exists, but rather than a delivery and communication needing improvement. It's a coordination issue, much more than it is a capacity issue in many senses. And so in response to this need and many others, the Digital Research Commons pilot was imagined and funded as a three-year project in 2022. So the initiative is co-sponsored and co-led by the Office of the VP Research, the University Library, and the Office of the AVP and Chief Technology Officer. With the recognition that only by working in these shared spaces are we going to be able to meet the diverse and nuanced needs of researchers across McMaster. The vision of the DRCP is to build a more connected, capable, and researcher-focused approach to digital research support that will improve access to system services, software, and training for researchers across the institution. And in simplified terms, we see our role as helping researchers who may take many different roles, easily access whatever it is that they need for their research, whether that's offered locally within McMaster or broadly by provincial or national providers. At the same time, it would be really nice if the needs of the researchers are clear and apparent to service providers, so they can work together to meet those collective needs, reduce redundancies, identify gaps, and collaborate on solutions that will fill them. The key text that I've highlighted here is the build into and around, which I think truly encapsulates the spirit of the work. To use a different and slightly grosser analogy, we often refer to the DRCP as the connective tissue between researchers and the research support units who support their work. And the team itself consists of subteams that join this initiative from their homes in three sponsoring units. The subteams provide their normal services and collaborate on projects that span across them, building better support resources for researchers, while also building relationships and understanding between them as well. The assessment team helps us understand needs and services, and the core team keeps us organized and connected to the many other supporting units on campus to which we are building connections. And so revisiting the wheel metaphor, it's safe to say that the DRCP serves much more as the spokes than it does the hub, but there are also many different hubs across campus, each serving an important and distinct role on campus. And so there is no singular hub, so to extend this metaphor even further, maybe it's best to think of the DRCP as the axles and chassis trying to tie together the wheels, ensuring that everything's moving in one direction and unison and pieces aren't flying off to the wayside. And to be honest, that sounds about right with our early experiences with this. There are many, many wheels and the load is significant, and the course change takes a lot of time and effort. And so maybe it's more akin to thinking of it as an 18-wheeler that we're trying to guide and maintain here. And so that might ultimately be what the DRCP is. So I think my time is almost up, but I wanted to try to tie this all together by sharing a few parting thoughts and highlighting the common elements of these two initiatives and discuss how the work of the Sherman Center has informed and really led to how we imagined and a lot of what we've done within the DRCP. And since I'll be speaking more organizationally focused aspects, I'd like to highlight that neither of these would be possible without the highly skilled and knowledgeable people that contribute to them and offer those services that researchers need. So the first is capacity is great. And once you have capacity, it's really clear that coordination and communication are absolutely critical. And so in the case of the Sherman Center, as I've mentioned, we hit a point where progress wasn't going to scale any more as we added more people until that coordinating layer was created. And as the number of involved stakeholders increased, so does the challenge with delivering the message to many audiences as well. And so we recognize in the Sherman Center, roughly around that time, too, that we needed more help in that area. And we've been very fortunate to that our School of Scholarship coordinator that we've brought into this role has that skill set. And they've been able to work with broader communications as well within the library and beyond campus, because it really takes a whole team to do this well. And we've taken this to heart within the DRCP. And we're employing a communication specialist right from the outset to help us build and implement a proper strategy, being mindful that we don't want to figure this out as we're as we're going through it, that we'd like to have us all the strategy for communicating and collaborating with campus leadership, various supporting units and researchers across all faculties. Second is that actually facilitating community and collaboration takes a whole lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of intentionality. From our experience, it's pretty easy to bring together a group of people for discussion. What's much harder and more challenging is to is developing true interdisciplinary collaboration where people understand each other, where they can embody common values and can work together with a shared set of goals. For the DRCP to succeed, this is really the type of transformational collaboration that we need between the sub teams and with the other groups across campus with which they collaborate. So what we've learned and demonstrated in the Sherman Center through its development is that making progress in this area can't be rushed and nor can it be prescribed whether bringing people together into community or initiating across unit project. People need time and they need space to share ideas and develop trust and respect with each other. We've tried to make the Sherman Center that kind of space and we're infusing these principles into the DRCP as we move forward with it. Finally, keeping it research-centric as much as possible. At the end of the day, it's all about research and from the Sherman Center side, we've invested many years into building that community so we could understand needs and develop programming and services that meet them, recognizing that this was necessary to our vision. Within the DRCP, we're trying to bake this right into the very fabric of the initiative and in many cases it's about meeting the researcher where they are, trying to understand what they need and being flexible and responsive to their challenges and priorities where possible and feasible, of course. And if practices of the researchers as they're performing them in the wild don't match what is perceived to be best practices, we hope that by building relationships with researchers and helping them implement solutions to their challenges that through that activity they'll have added time and interest to engage in conversations about new approaches as well. So that's all that I wanted to share but in closing I would like to thank Joan, Paige, CNI and my co-presenters and all of you once more for this opportunity to talk about two things that I'm really interested in. I hope it resonates with some of you out there and provides further opportunities for me to learn about what you're doing in your area and how you're tackling some of these issues. Thank you. Jay, thank you so much. I really think that you've given people so much to think about and some models of practice that others may want to follow. I'm going to combine two questions and ask you right now and we'll take more at the end. So don't worry if you have a question for Jay or others we'll go back to earlier questions at the end of all the presentations. So the two questions are both about staff. They're slightly different variations. One is are the staff in the Sherman Center all employed by the library or other units also and then she said I think you mentioned ARC staff and the other question is about whether there are staff working in these arenas who have dual roles. For example, someone doing reference and instruction but also working in the Sherman Center or perhaps a metadata specialist or something like that. Thanks Joan. Yeah it might be a complex answer to give because we purposefully try to blur the lines I would say sometimes between the Sherman Center and the library and the functions that we serve there. To answer the question for a long period of time we had share roles with our ARC group which is RHPCS here. Our RDM specialists were both 50-50 split between the library and the high performance computing service. What's happened relatively recently is that they did a restructuring there and they narrowed their scope and so we've taken you know technically they fully report into the library but the understanding is that they're still part of the DRCP which is then therefore a part of the office of the VP research. We've also adopted the research software development team from that unit as well and so they're based within the library but still devoted to the broader initiative. In terms of dual roles the folks that I showed there they are pretty much committed to the Sherman Center but as you might notice you know some of the services that are provided at the Sherman Center are what can be thought of as traditional library services as well and so we're essentially taking some of those services. We've taken some of those services and moved them inside the Sherman Center but there are library services that are being offered. We have done with some of the individuals who have joined to support things like research and information management and some of the new DRCP staff. We've taken them organizationally and put them inside the Sherman Center so that they have a team with which to connect and work with and in that way they're establishing stronger connections with the individuals around them but to some extent they are supporting I guess other initiatives and so I guess in summary we take advantage of flexibility and blurring the lines where organizationally it's convenient to us. I figured it would be a complex answer because you've got so much going on and you have partnerships both within and with other units in the university and that does lead to complex relationships. Okay thank you again so much Jay we'll have more questions for you later and some questions may be for all of our presenters so next up we have Anne and Joe so please start your screen share and whenever you're ready please proceed. All right thank you Joan and Jay that was great I think there's a lot that resonates and we'll see that across our presentation too but Joe and I are here to talk about digital scholarship at the University of Michigan and we'll start first with some brief introductions. Joe why don't you go ahead. Hi I'm Joe I go by he him pronouns and I'm a digital scholarship research consultant in the College of Literature Science and Arts in University of Michigan. And I'm Anne Conquynne my pronouns are she and her and I'm the director of digital scholarship at the University of Michigan library and this is so two collaborators coming together to talk about how we run digital scholarship at U of M and this is our agenda for this brief presentation. Yeah so we're going to talk a little bit about our context and how we're doing digital scholarship we're going to do a little bit of a run through of the anti-racist digital research initiative which is a newer kind of initiative for us and take a few moments to talk through some of the up and coming social environmental impacts and a little bit about safety and security with digital bodies and think about kind of the things that we're doing in the future. Yeah all right so first we also wanted to start with acknowledging where we're coming from doing this presentation. At the University of Michigan we trace our university's origins to a land grant from the Anishinaabeg and Wyandotte when in 1817 the Ojibwe Odawa and the Potawatomi nations made the largest single land transfer to the University of Michigan. This land was offered ceremonially and as a gift through the Treaty of the Foot of the Rapids so that their children could be educated. We acknowledge that our university stands like almost all property in the U.S. on lands obtained in unconscionable ways from indigenous peoples. Through scholarship and pedagogy we work to create a feature in which the past is thoroughly understood and the present supports justice and human flourishing and this is just this is not enough but this is an acknowledgement. So the University of Michigan is a large public institution and it's an R1 research-oriented one that is very decentralized. We have 19 schools and colleges plus a library and a big hospital and it's from the library so yes and so our digital scholarship program is run in the library the central library ours is a fairly young program we're just wrapping up a three-year service pilot and currently in the process of doing assessment and because we're in the library we do have some core services that we offer and many of these are done in collaboration with Joe and his team so we offer a lot of consultations related to you know teaching research the whole gamut. We offer several public events throughout the year and workshops so we leave you know a series of digital scholarship 101 workshops workshops related to digital methods and tools and we also offer project support and we have tiered levels of support depending on our you know our relationship with the researchers the kind of projects they're working on and what commitments we have to them and then we also provide limited access to technologies and platforms. We don't have a lot of capacity at the University of Michigan libraries my team is quite small it's myself we have a metadata engagement librarian and a digital scholarship librarian we have a couple of vacancies we haven't been able to hire in and because of that our relationship with Joe and LSA has been really important. Outside of digital collections our digital repositories online exhibits and our publishing platforms we don't have a lot of capacity or infrastructure to support digital research projects so I'll let Joe talk about the LSA piece of that. Yeah so including me there's about four FTE across several different people and teams within LSA's technology services we have who are dedicated to doing work on digital scholarship projects so we have systems administrators developers designers user experience designers GIS folks HPC folks so on and so forth and between the library and LSA we have about five people who are in basically like a core hub to expand on Jay's terms and we work very closely together do a lot of like triage of any kinds of incidents or tickets that come in things like that and then kind of beyond that there's about two dozen folks in a DS advisory group which is made up of library and LSA folks and folks also from like our other Flint and Dearborn campuses and so forth and it just makes sense for LSA to work with the library on so closely on a lot of these because as we started tracking projects we noticed that over 70 percent of the LSA projects that we handle have somebody from the library working with us as well so yeah another thing that's very interesting about the way that we work is that we have this shared values and principles that guide our work and they're linked in the in the slides there but I think I can put the link in here for everybody and very quickly because we don't have time to go through them all but it's like principles are around DEI, anti-racism, accessibility, openness, transparency, care and consent, and connection and partnership and these weren't like Ann and I telling folks this is what we're principles are this was like us all working together to kind of have these emerge from how we wanted to work yeah yeah so we'll talk first about our anti-racist digital research initiative and this is a pilot initiative that we are just wrapping up right now doing assessment and rethinking what the future of this program looks like but it emerged I think we proposed it late in 2020 after George the killing of George Floyd and you know the racial reckoning happening at US campuses and this is a pilot program many grants that we are offered offering out of the library so it's library funds and it also serves as a sort of assessment mechanism College of Ellis and A is the largest college at U of M we hear a lot from those faculty but we had a sense that there were other faculty and other researchers doing digital scholarship across our campus and crap campuses including Flint and Dearborn but we didn't know how to hear from those faculty they don't always respond to surveys interview requests so this program provided $5,000 in startup funds and then a lot of consultation and technical support from the library and the LSA technology services team we provide planning support from like the very beginning like before they start work on their project all the way through thinking about planning and preservation we also provided access to library and technical expertise and this included two community partners and research collaborators who might not have an affiliation with the university so we were learning a lot and pushing I think a lot of the boundaries about you know what library services look like and who has access to these these resources and I will say that the technical support was really extraordinary in the slides I think once those are shared the images actually link to the pages on the library website so you can see what the process looked like for you know applications and review and we held a series of office hours for the month leading up to the deadline for this grant project but Joe will talk about technical support and the statistics I come out of this on the next slide yeah so we had about 12 folks in the core team doing the reviews as facilitators and organizers for this whole thing and like Ann mentioned we had six awardees that was out of about 34 applications and the budget for the whole thing was about $31,000 over the full year that we were supporting those six projects we with consulting time with developer time and design time we spent around 3600 hours working with those projects oh and I forgot to mention that our other large institutional partner was the national center for institutional diversity which is a research center located in the College of LSNA and they were willing to provide affiliation status to any of the researchers who were not affiliated with LSA so they could have access to LSA resources so we were trying to find really creative ways to make friends and expand access to institutional resources that were otherwise you know very limited and those core team of reviewers included folks from the library including our head of DEIA in the library member representatives from the national center for institutional diversity our technical support folks so they all brought their these different perspectives in as we reviewed these applications so we could think about you know the research questions how ethical the research was but also is this feasible and I think all of those perspectives were really important as we reviewed those those applications we'll talk a little bit at the end about how this went and what we're learning as we do all of this work so now we're going to kind of shift focus a little bit towards social environmental impacts of things and also safeguarding digital bodies so I should say that so I'll start first by talking about social and environmental impacts and note that all of this work is happening within a larger institutional context there are quite a few initiatives that are happening at U of M we have a plant blue planet blue initiative our campus is trying to go carbon neutral within the next decade but locally we're we're taking small steps as part of you know contributing to larger efforts we're closing local server rooms and moving towards more efficient use of shared space and resources but most importantly I think what we're trying what we're doing is building a lot of relationships and supporting research that is happening within research centers across campus and supporting the work of faculty members students that are working to address issues of anti-racism of social justice and a lot of this work is happening in places like the center for social solutions poverty solutions the school for environment sustainability the digital inquiry speculation collaboration and optimism the disco network this is a melon funded project and these are just a handful of the folks that we work with so we work with researchers across campus and try to you know support that work that's happening um and so much of the expertise is amongst you know spread and distributed across our our faculty so trying to contribute um in the ways that we can jody do you want to add to that should we move on okay right so um given our principles and values um it's probably no surprise that we um uh are influenced by things like the consentful tech and our data bodies and those kinds of readings talked about and they introduce us to this term of the digital body and it's kind of like thinking through um you know you take care of your physical body um you know there's certain things you do you eat healthy you exercise that kind of thing and you protect it um and then thinking through in a digital sense like online how you protect your your body how you care and feed for and so forth so that's the digital body and what we've been trying to think through and help um our it shops with is how to help researchers who are working in like anti-racist work or doing all kinds of other social work um and maybe even activist work to understand sort of that how we can try and help um protect the digital body of our researchers so you know for example like questions like how do you protect yourself when you're on you know targeted on some sort of watch list um you know as a faculty member or as a student or researcher um you know how do you use how do you study a certain topic without getting any sort of threats or physical harm things like that lots of really you know tough questions and um in some ways it's been challenging uh working with some of the IT security areas only because um when you start talking about these topics um sometimes it's difficult to kind of get them to think of it in this sort of digital body sense but then once you start talking to them there's a lot of you know you know uh energy behind it so that's what we've been doing um and you know we're hoping that in the future we'll be able to come back and tell you about all the cool things we've been doing in this space and I should say that a lot of this work is precipitated by our relationships with researchers um and I think we had graduate students from the digital studies institute who had applied for like our scholar sprints where we we connected them with library and technical support folks students were like studying white supremacists on social media and asking us like how do I keep myself and my family safe um and how do I not expose myself to risk and harm um and I think we're having it's these relationships and being engaged in that work that has really moved to this work forward all right so what are we doing now we are doing a lot of assessment especially with the anti-racist digital research initiative and we're trying to think about ways to iterate and transform the process the the format and structure of it it's been primarily a lot of engagements online through zoom webinars and and sessions consultations that is really challenging sometimes for our faculty and our graduate students who also teach and do research during the academic year to attend a lot of these trainings so we're thinking about combining this with our digital scholarship certificate program turning that into a fellowship and making this a like an intensive in person or you know simultaneous synchronous event so that folks can have the time to learn the you know the central tenants that we're trying to teach them about accessibility about doing ethical research and give them face time to work with our our experts in the library and lsa technology services we're also let me see preparing our staff and ourselves to support anti-racist socially engaged and community centered work I think the will is there amongst our folks to be able to sort support this work but whether or not we're actually prepared to do it is another question we've been getting I think some some challenging feedback for us to hear that sometimes the way that folks show up isn't necessarily conducive to like supporting that work and I think this is challenging because not all of the folks who are supporting this work report to Joe or myself so thinking how do we you know prepare and train the these folks who really want to support this work how do we take a systematic approach and improve our our staffing in our capacity to not just support the digital part of the scholarship but also engage as you know peers and partners in this research we're working within institutional structures building relationships and negotiating with various stakeholders I think Joe spoke to this in the the digital bodies work where we can't do all of this on our own and we rely very heavily on our relationships with our partners and I think we're working we're learning that there are different cultures in these spaces as well so navigating and negotiating those and as we're wrapping up our pilot of our service and thinking about what the service looks like in a stable form moving forward we're having design sessions and conversations with those service partners and collaborators thinking about shared resources and you know virtual spaces that we can bring them in and centralize some of this how we share this information am I leaving anything out in that summary okay all right well we'll leave it there for now if you have any questions feel free to reach out to myself or to Joe this is our contact info I'll stop sharing now Joe and I think you're muted you wouldn't think I'd ever done this before thank you thank you so much Ann and Joe when we had some back and forth in preparation for this webinar is just fascinated by the range of things that you're tackling the difficult topics I personally have not heard of anyone else doing things about the safeguarding digital bodies work in in this context I would love it if any of our participants are doing this work in their own libraries or universities if you put that in the chat we we're not going to discuss it right now but I would be very interested in following up on that I think it's a it's such an important topic and something that's really community oriented towards our our whole university constituency so thank you so much I'll have one quick question for you and that is do you have any spaces in the library that support this work so we I think I mentioned that we're not a center we also don't really have physical space in the library we have you know these pilot spaces we just did like a renovation of a massive floor of our undergraduate library I think we're still trying to figure out like what what our services look like since they've been virtual for so long like so much of the pilot happened during the pandemic and now that we're transitioning back into physical space like how do we make that transition what it looks like how do we use space intentionally I think there are so many you know important needs of the library for like student study space you know events and those kinds of things that we haven't yet answered those questions what is the you know a project space look like in the library but we do have you know other areas in the library like our design lab that we've worked fairly closely with that has like the makers base and the we also have the computer and video game archive so we partner with all of those folks but we don't have our own like digital scholarship space thank you yeah well we'll come back to you with some more questions at the end and now over to Lauren thanks so much please go ahead and share your slides can everyone see my slides not yet yeah well we can perfect thanks so much hi everyone thank you for having me here today I am very excited to be discussing Yale's approaches to digital scholarship our library is very much at the beginning of a transformative process to rethink what digital scholarship looks like and to actually reorganize our structure and approaches to better meet the needs of our researchers and students so I'm going to be talking about a lot of sort of beginning things a lot of first principle things that we're going to be doing for context I'm only two months into my role here and we're currently in the middle of a search for the director of a new department called computational methods and data that is now responsible for the equivalent of digital scholarship spaces and services so we are still figuring out what this work will look like we will be in experimentation mode for a while playing around with how to structure programs and support internal external relationships exploring what that means and probing staff knowledge and expertise to build surfaces and spaces that make sense for the library and the university in this current moment but also moving into the future that's all so that's all to say don't hold me too tightly to what I described today it's really very much the beginning so again to kind of help situate where we are now and where we're planning to go I'm going to start by briefly describing what digital scholarship look like before then I'll discuss our current thinking and approaches as well as some factors driving change I think that's really important to kind of help understand the why behind what we're doing and then I'll review some specific activities we're starting to undertake to move the program forward so earlier configurations of our digital scholarship work were comprised of four distinct work streams organized within strong disciplinary boundaries so we had a digital humanities lab that was a space and we still do a space and suite of services designed to build out projects and prototypes for researchers asking humanistic questions that would benefit from digital methods we have a stats lab that has a dedicated space that offered basic statistical and data analysis support via consultation and code review and this service was primarily staffed by graduate students we had a research data support program that was forming and made up of a few individual contributors providing mostly subject specific support primarily in medical STEM and social sciences and also in the professional schools and a GIS program dedicated GIS librarian supported by graduate student consultants so I feel like this is a fairly common kind of model in some ways or elements of this can be very familiar to folks the DH lab reported through the library's art and humanities portfolio while the stats GIS and data folks reported through the library science and social science portfolio so there were two organizational leaders with digital scholarship responsibilities and despite best intentions this kind of disciplinary focus kind of especially split across portfolios ended up creating conditions that siloed the work and created some challenging barriers to collaboration and I want to be clear that collaboration was happening across programs and services staff are doing their best to find opportunities to work together but those collaborations were personality and project dependent right it wasn't a feature baked into the structure so you have to work harder to get there and those connections could feel a little uncertain there one day and it'd be not the next pardon me so we ended up with these kind of four fiefdoms where the emphasis became building vertically rather than across and it became hard to understand what digital scholarship looked like at the organizational level it was hard for our users to know where to go harder still to see the the needs and opportunities that cross cut the programs and really the approach made it hard to be strategic right and to actually support the work at scale we actually weren't really meeting our needs so to help build an organization wide view when to address some of the unintended consequences of organizing work so strongly within disciplinary pillars a fairly significant reorganization of the library took place that merged the arts and humanities and science and social sciences portfolios into one big research and learning portfolio so this has led to the creation of my a well role and to that new department computational methods and data so in this new arrangement the four digital scholarship work streams are now merged into one unit and so the key areas of work include exploring opportunities to leverage data and computation to inform and extend research and learning across the disciplines developing and nurturing relationships and collaborations across the university's growing research support ecosystem and investing efforts and resources into need finding and assessment to ensure that the services offered actually address the gaps and complement or enhance those provided by other units so really strong organizational awareness is key to the work that we're engaging in now so our new directions for digital scholarship are very much aligned with the strategies guiding the work of the new portfolio so computational methods and data is part of a larger team that will advance a coordinated and library-wide vision for research and learning services and I think it's important to call this out because a shift to the computational methods and data department is not just about bringing allied work together into a single department it's bigger than that this is an opportunity to embed digital scholarship tools and approaches into research and learning efforts across the board in a way to feed needs from across the organization into digital scholarship services so we have this really wonderful feedback loop that I think was missing before and it's a way to accelerate the delivery of more targeted services and expertise hopefully in sustainable ways Another key responsibility for this portfolio is nurturing and developing relationships and partnerships and I know this is a very basic premise of digital scholarship work right you can't get anywhere without collaboration and champions and certainly I'm interested in using the research and learning portfolios broad scope to spark interdisciplinary connections and to create new research and teaching opportunities but what I'm most interested in exploring at least right now is how to position computational methods and data as a node in a network of research and discovery at Yale right how can we position this team to be an ongoing conversation and negotiation with other actors engaging in digital and data informed practices and how can we come together to create meaningful new possibilities right can we create new enabling infrastructures new models for delivering support and expertise so I'd like to explore how collaborations across the university can change not just what we do but how we do what we do and I hope some of my examples later on will sort of start to speak to this so it can mean thinking about more porous or fluid organizational structures right I might mean not taking on entirely new roles and responsibilities and for us it'll really be about honing in our value proposition you know getting really clear about what it is that we offer but others don't or can't and so finally this portfolio has a charge to align offerings with the university strategic priorities so for digital scholarship in particular I think this means acknowledging that we are part of a much larger team right we are part of the research enterprise and the way we develop and apply digital scholarship skills knowledge spaces and tools should be informed by robust organizational awareness and should be in service to those highest organizational goals so that is our driver here right it's going to be less about maybe older ways of doing things and more about what we need today to really get aligned at Yale right now much strategy is focused on supporting computational and data informed research and learning there's a number strategies out there some key ones that are guiding our thinking and efforts now are the university science strategy which articulates data science it's a key university priority it emphasizes interdisciplinary research it acknowledges the importance of research data management the humanities doctoral education report which calls for supporting and growing interdisciplinary research in the humanities and demand support for non-traditional dissertation forms the data intensive social science strategy which formed a new research center that is operating as a coordinating space for services and expertise for social science researchers and their collaborators particularly with database research and as the strategic vision report for the school of engineering and applied sciences which strongly emphasizes interdisciplinary collaboration and the creation of new structures to support partnership and impact so a really you know good portion of the library's response to the university strategy strategy is the creation of this computational methods and data department it's the department it's one of the key places where we'll support data informed research and learning enable interdisciplinary connections and initiatives and create space and support for novel and creative approaches to research driven by digital methods and computation so I hope it's becoming clear just how aligned we're trying to get here and sort of what's driving this shift to this new department this new way of working but you might be wondering what does it look like right how have what have we been doing to advance these new approaches and that's a great question it's an open question it's something we are still exploring but I can talk about some stuff that we are currently undertaking so we've really started to go back to kind of first principles here we're digging in with two assessment and user engagement so yes you've had a program it's been operational for years and we want to go into this new articulation with fresh eyes right so with support from our assessment and user experience group we've completed a service inventory of the four work streams to see where they're overlapped differences and continuities and that's going to help us level set as we think about creating department wide or even library wide services we've also engaged in listening tours you know just talking to people to understand their perspectives our DH program manager for example compiled completed a really robust listening tour once you join the organization and in doing my own listening tour I was able to kind of really accelerate my onboarding and kind of help develop some strategies and do some sanity checking around our approaches right this doesn't even make sense is it resonating with our with the people that we have to work with and support and I think this is great data for the incoming director to work with as they establish get established in the role so this is I think a space that's still quite emergent and I and I hope that we can provide more sort of definition around it but I wanted to just make sure that it creates space for the fact to talk about the fact that we are really going right back down to the foundation here to understand what do people need so what you're seeing on this slide is just some themes that have emerged from some of that work we're also exploring new ways of collaborating and partnering so thinking about deepening engagement and thinking about getting closer to the research which are kind of key themes for us we've partnered with that new research center the data informed social science center to actually share one of our data library and positions and we're looking for opportunities to engage other researchers research centers to do the same so for this experiment as I were kind of thinking of it we've reworked the this one data librarians drop description to create a dotted line to the center's executive director we've created a space for the center staff to report to the librarian and and the library in the center actually splitting both the fte and the compensation so this is like really structural foundational connections and support here what I like about this is that it creates potentially more enduring structures for partnership so if the center leadership changes or if our data librarian moves on or whatever else might happen in the course of work the connection might can persist right this is also helpful for us because the center is really the kind of heart of a lot of data informed research for social scientists at Yale University they're going to the center first and so as it for as it's as their first stop it actually allows us to kind of work directly with them a little bit more ease right and we can through that space and through that program start to build more awareness of library services and expertise we can connect researchers to our resources and coordinate things like data purchasing across units and kind of take on more of that coordination role which is hard to do when you're also asking people to come to you so I think this is sort of a model that is really dependent on Yale's organizational culture for us to go into the research center I don't know that it might apply to every organization but it's one that feels like it has some legs here because of the way our researchers approach seeking out help and where they expect to find help so that's going to be one we're going to keep our eye on if it's successful we're going to maybe push into other places as well as our embedded data librarians hopefully plural will be providing support across the research life cycle at a very high level and very close to where the researchers are doing their work it means that we have to rethink how we're supporting other data needs across the board so we're really looking at distributed support model where we're defined data support tiers and assign some level of responsibility for data support across every librarian and researcher learning so across in all disciplines so the highest levels of support will come from that computational methods and data department but we'll have different kinds of tiers in different places we're also used to flush that out we're going to have to add in more FTEs in functional roles like data creation reproducibility possibly open science or open scholarship so we're kind of experimenting essentially with a model that lets us kind of spread out wide but also go deep figuring out the FTE piece of this is interesting and I think we're getting there but I think without doing both of these things in tandem we're not going to be able to actually succeed we're also looking at reconfiguring the stats lab to hone in on key gaps in the research support ecosystem so we're most likely going to regroup around hands-on methodological supports and code review for reproducibility so trying to get really specific about what it is that we're doing rather than sort of offering a very generic service around statistical support we're also going to revisit the staffing model there to improve service and sustainability we need to be able to provide more consistency and to ensure that we can provide support for highly requested areas that aren't covered anywhere else funnily enough qualitative data analysis like no one's doing this on campus so we're going to step up to the plate and take responsibility for this and we're also reflecting on how to reframe digital humanities support so our small but mighty DH team has done great work exploring strengths and challenges facing the lab and based on that work we'll be rethinking you know scope charge and purpose of the lab as well as finding ways to reassert this space and program as a key intellectual hub for the DH community much of this work will focus on engaging research faculty who have recently been hired to do digital humanities work which is so interesting in some of these academic departments people are coming in with this mandate to do to do digital humanities and they've kind of created these little group of schools with graduate students and other folks and so can we bring these folks together and provide additional kind of yeah coordination support deepening engagement so we'll try to deepen our work with graduate students there as well and a real obvious opening for us is a focus on interdisciplinary support and non-traditional dissertation support so what does this look like what training is necessary to make this happen what's the afterlife of the that that kind of dissertation project look like as well and then kind of connected to that we'll be collaborating to deliver certificate programs on topics like critical computing so this would be with humanities faculty and finally key efforts will continue to be around ensuring that the library has a seat at the table when it comes to decisions about research data we're collaborating with research centers the vpr's office the cio and others to deliver key infrastructure like a data repository and data discovery workflows and we're really kind of advising on institutional data sharing retention and preservation policies and contributing to research data conversations wherever we can right and also really try to push for open practices and open infrastructure wherever we can since the ills at this sort of an earlier stage in this process i think we have a strong opportunity to kind of build some of the stuff in from the beginning which i think is exciting and wouldn't happen unless we were at those tables we're also going to be leading engagement and education efforts which include helping researchers make sense of the university's surface and support environment so this is i think is a common theme across all of our presentations today we have lots of stuff lots of help no one knows how to find it so really sort of sitting in that role and trying to make sense of that rich complex and fragmented environment and that is another way that i think we're also building out those partnerships because by asking those questions and by kind of putting your hand up to say okay we'll do it it puts it puts you at the table and it helps build out those relationships as well as well so that's a super quick tour of what's happening at Yale thank you for your attention today and i'm happy to answer any questions that you might have thank you so much lauren what an ambitious agenda it's almost making my head spin and and i have a couple of questions um that really apply to all of you but um specifically i'd like to start out with you lauren to ask about uh you used the phrase uh and i had written it down earlier too the seat at the table and i'm going to after you respond i'm like each of our presenters to address how they believe their libraries have been successful in getting the seat at the table you of course are very new at Yale so i don't know how much you know about the role of the dean the role of um people with different specialties but do you have some it's really what i'm looking for strategies and advice for our participants of how to get a seat at the table yeah i mean i'm very lucky because i i walked into an organization that was sort of already primed for that and i think barba rock and buck r u l has done a lot of work she's fairly new as well i think it's about three years that she's been in that role and i know that it's a lot of boots on the ground kind of effort you know making the case for the library and i know that she's been responsible for you know initiating some collaborations with the vpr's office with the cio with our high performance computing group to kind of pull together you know uh different kinds of committees and groups to kind of kind of get people to think together and think of the library as part of that that's been a wonderful foundation to build from right because it allows us to then use some of the work and ideas that's that spit out of those groups to you know connect with directors of research centers or faculty to say hey this is happening we're hearing about this are you hearing about this and they are because of all those connections and we can kind of build from there so they think of the library when it comes to a data repository question and they think of the library when it comes to gosh who knows about data preservation who could we ask so i think it's it's like a longer term project it's not a single strategy at least here that that seems to be my impression it's about kind of going wide and deep again right uh and so i i think also focusing in on people who are already saying yes so if we have that strong relationship with the data informed social science center trust that i'm going to be working with that executive director on a lot of projects because you know we're working together it's working and he's got the year of the provost we can kind of make stuff happen in that way as well so quick answer there maybe not super useful but from my perspective now that's what i can see where it is yes thank you jay how about you next sure thanks i think i can echo a lot of uh what what lauren was saying i think it it's incredibly valuable to have leadership and we have leadership here in the library that has worked for a long time to build relationships with units across campus and and often i think it's just a case of you know being there and being available and to what lauren said is you know just saying yes to things and to volunteer to lead things in cases where everyone's looking around at each other wondering who's going to lead it i think it's a it's a great opportunity to just kind of embrace it and uh demonstrate the value that uh that the library can can add to the the research support environment thank you am and joe i yes very similar response over here i think it's taken several years for us to just of like constantly consistently showing up in different spaces um and becoming trusted partners i've become like a an ex officio member of the steering committee of our humanities collaboratory joe and i have been attending like faculty meetings of the digital studies institute and i think just showing up in these spaces and you know participating as as peers and colleagues has developed trust in those spaces so that when things come up people know who to turn to with their questions um and i think having like i have a very supportive a u l so even when you know resources were like locked down during the pandemic and we wanted to do the anti-racist digital research initiative when we put together our request she was willing to actually take a risk and push for something like this and i think having leadership that is willing to to trust you to take a risk um is really really important and i think for for joe um we've done so much in just connecting our leadership that now they have regular meetings like um i don't know if you want to talk speak to that joe uh because we're in two different parts of the university but i think our leadership are now in communication with each other which is great yeah i think you know it was very early on i think there were a lot of times we were doing coffee with folks and just you know talking to people um and conversing i know that in some cases some of the relationships between um it shops and libraries can be you know chili um and so you know it was really cool to be able to see folks coming together and you know we were finding common ground on a lot of stuff so that's that's that's the way though thank you i'm going to go back to a question um that is both uh for an and joe i think you may have answered it to some extent when you talked about the assessment of your um anti-racism project but the question is how are you thinking about the sustainability of the pilot program do you have anything to add to that yeah so there's um i think a couple of pieces to that because we are thinking about the sustainability of that that grant program um and i think the the current partners will will really make or break that that project so the library has committed to some to funding that for the next three years and our university provost has also or yeah provost has funded through the national center for institutional diversity and anti-racism collaborative which has a great deal of funding and they're willing to you know cost share in this and continue to be partners moving forward we actually will probably have to find new partners in lsa for that um and we're i mean joe and i have been working on a provost request to centralize um some of this work so we can expand access to this beyond lsa um so that we don't need these that research center partner but we're also thinking about the sustainability of the service pilot in the library um and we've i think experienced some growing pains because we've been fairly successful people now know who to go to for for help and we get a lot of requests um but our staffing hasn't increased and i think we're also filling in gaps within the library that have been you know i think someone underfunded in in recent years around like online exhibits and text and data mining so our staff are stretched and we're trying to figure out ways to sustain some of these services or maybe cut back and think about what we must provide moving forward what we can actually reasonably expect of our staff um and our services but there are a lot of difficult conversations talking with our partners and i think there will be a lot of transition moving forward yeah and from a technical perspective we have um done a lot of work to figure out what our capacities are and throughput so we know that we can support about 14 new projects every year and so you know we have the numbers at hand so that we can go to funding sources and say you know if you want us to do more projects then it you know it has cost us this much more in fte of this type to to be able to fund that so folks know you know what they'll get for what they spend uh i think that's really interesting joe and i think it's one of the things that um perhaps more programs will try to quantify and pay more attention to both tiers of service and what constitutes um service in in those tiers how many projects you have capacity for what range of projects how you set priorities all those things as these programs mature i think will become more and more important well i have another question for all of you um but in the meantime while we hear the responses i'd be very interested in hearing your questions um so i'll first ask mine and then i see one just came in which is great and i'll get to that next so my question is that all of you use the word research a lot about your researchers and very few of you used anything about teaching and learning students and in our digital scholarship um forums and in other work i've done often the people working directly in digital scholarship tell me that there's a lot of intertwining or interconnectedness between the faculty doing research and how they're either involving their students in that research or they're using the products of that research in their instruction now and other ways um now i believe all of you are probably referring to graduate students as well as faculty when you talk about researchers perhaps or perhaps not but tell me tell us all a little bit more about whether you're working with undergrads or whether you're working with faculty in uh because they'll be working with undergrads or their products so let's start with lauren again i know you're new so i don't know how many examples you have but i think you understand what i'm asking the title of your position is research and learning so if you see here what you have to say yeah um and so this is an area that i that we are currently contending with and i think it's going to be uh i i ultimately ultimately we will be incorporating research and learning into our digital scholarship services yes absolutely what does that look like is an interesting question um at Yale we have a very strong center for teaching and learning so it'll probably uh be in partnership with the purveau center um this center for teaching and learning does actually in many ways a lot of work that a library might have typically taken on also and so whether it's with digital pedagogy or um things of that nature and so that is an area that is um ripe for collaboration and i'd love to sort of dig into a little bit more especially around quantitative reasoning requirements that come out of courses and things like that there might be some interesting things there with the data emphasis i just don't know enough um but that's there's like a pin in that that i'd love to keep exploring but otherwise yes faculty focus is quite strong so when we come to partnering with the research centers it is research faculty who are going to these these places and looking for help um we employ graduate students to provide support so if there's a training element there where we can kind of get help get people the bright set of skills to kind of provide that support if they're coming in with um you know trading and you know they don't are but they want to learn python we can set them up with that but in terms of instructional support that's not the emphasis for us right now it's really about connecting with researchers because that's what we're hearing from our listening tours and from our our partners and stakeholders thank you jay would you like to comment sure thanks i'm glad you asked the question and given us a chance to to reflect on that a little bit i you know i think we we see that as um equally as important as the research support we do because in many cases with graduate students and undergraduate students research and learning are very closely integrated with each other anyway um so we you know through the time that we we've um offering programming through the the Sherman Center we've we've regularly worked with instructors to bring the digital approaches and tools into the classroom and and integrate them into the course curricula it's not something that we can do at at at incredible scales because it is very time-intensive to to to build that instruction into the curricula but we do that a number of times a year several times a year i would think on average is someone will engage in that type of um that work with an instructor and it's it's actually a really powerful way of bringing those students into the community and also the instructor as well um we run a graduate residency program here that is that is headed by our academic director Andrew Sefiro um that program brings in about 10 graduate students from from all across campus and embeds them in the Sherman Center and provides um a lot of uh a lot of professionalization opportunities for them and then direct project support with projects that are directly related to or kind of tangentially related to things that they're working on in their research um and we've we've also over the last few years um put a lot more resources into a program we call the dash service which is data analysis support hub and that's a mostly a peer-to-peer so it's graduate students that are providing the the front level service supporting predominantly undergraduate students who are using data analysis tools and methods in their in their class work as well and so we've tried to build more engagements and points of interaction with undergraduate graduate students as well thank you and and and joe yes so um at michigan digital scholarship is actually located in the learning and teaching division of the library so we work closely with colleagues in research where a lot of the subject liaisons are but we take a very pedagogical approach to how we support digital scholarship so we are working with researchers to help them learn these new skills like project management teaching their students um and we do a lot of instruction so my team we go into undergraduate and graduate classes and we teach things like introduction to digital scholarship or how to do text mining and data or text analysis um we our team also hires one to two graduate interns every semester every year so we work with our graduate school and I think we at this point have developed quite a reputation as a really welcoming space for for graduate students especially those in the humanities who are not sure about whether they want to continue down the tenure track in academia and we work fairly closely with faculty to embed the digital scholarship librarians and some of their curricular efforts so in recent years for example we've had a couple of faculty members in american culture who have taught courses around um asian americans at university of michigan or black women in the archives and we have our librarians um attending those classes teaching sessions on accessibility and digital exhibits um or you know the erasure in archives and archival practice how to do repair engage in reparative metadata practices when creating online exhibits and these have been really wonderful I think experiences that have come out of our support of faculty research projects so we're also in their undergraduate classes doing this work as well and we're um I think in the past year or so we we actually worked with an undergraduate student group the united asian american organizations um one of the students I had done like a wikipedia instruction in one of her classes and she came up and proposed a digital collection they had access to materials that um you know asian american students had deposited with staff members and they wanted to digitize and create a digital collection so these students actually over the course of the pandemic digitized materials worked with our metadata engagement my brain to create the metadata and the the collection is now live um on our website and it was purely student-led so we really love those kinds of projects I think those are the most rewarding so yes we do a lot of that thank you and joe you're heavily involved I imagine in learning yeah uh I'm actually in the research team you know in the um uh technology services area but yes that's that they're all stuck together there's no no escaping it um and I think that like many here have said you know our our use of the word scholar is very broad um and you know it always for us it means you know everybody from undergrad all the way through tenured faculty even you know folks uh in the community to who are doing activism work or something uh community fellows who are related to or you know associated with a research project we work with them as well so thank you well I think the other questions have been answered in the chat so I'm going to ask one final question of all of you and I'm trying to think how best to phrase this I'll give it a try some people feel that we shouldn't even say digital scholarship anymore because all scholarship is digital I am not sure that's entirely correct but let's say it's mostly correct and we also you know are living digital lives um digital objects and digital techniques are used in teaching and learning and research etc when do you think or do you think that all library staff of all types will become more involved directly in providing services that we now you know kind of um segregate to some degree as digital scholarship uh data intensive and computational um each of you have touched on this a little bit in your um answers to questions but I'd like more the big picture is this the future is this going to happen do you think um it will in your professional career Lauren my impression is that this is part of your perhaps agenda or the why your position was created am I right about that yeah I think so and I do hope it will happen within my professional career I really we're trying to aim for the the date like the tiered data support for sure I don't know that maybe so if we think of digital scholarship as a large umbrella of uh you know skills expertise services you know I don't know that um our division to have all of our librarians do digital scholarship is is maybe accurate but I do think what's going to become more and more important is that everybody who interacts with patrons right students researchers community whoever is conversant enough to have that kind of first level to you know conversation about what is this so they actually know how to refer properly it's like anything else that we do in terms of reference interviews even are kind of supporting supporting our patrons so I think those functional skills as we as we sometimes call them are going to become more and more important um and I think we still need to have those specialists right who can truly truly go deep so it's it's I think it will happen sooner than the need is already here I think in some places and I hope that it'll happen sooner than later but it does require a total rethinking of our approach to work and of our definition of our roles so this is why it's it's like organizational change is culture change even though the sort of research is already kind of there so we have a little bit of catching up to do I think thank you Ann would you like to tackle that sure that is a big question and I think um I similar to Lauren we're finding and I and and to Jay we're finding that the more we collaborate with one another across the libraries and with researchers and scholars and instructors on campus the more we're you know distributing this knowledge and the better these collaborations and the more rigorous and you know more compelling that research um and I'm also that you know that annoying digital scholarship librarian who tells faculty that their digital projects like are really hard to preserve um and the fancier they want it to be the harder it is for us to maintain and sustain and for them to keep those things going so maybe publish a paper to document it and I think there's a lot of this like this back and forth and this um the more that we you know work with our with our other colleagues the more complementary that work is um and I think we're finding that we engage we bring in folks from all you know we have you know digital articles that are coming out that included metadata librarian and our music librarian and then we're also developing online exhibits that we work with our facilities folks in order to you know make them available to the public in our spaces so there's I think these boundaries will become very blurry and we'll end up you know working across those sometimes arbitrary divisions um but yeah I don't know if that answered your question but yes definitely and Joe I don't know since you don't work directly in the library I don't know if you want to add anything uh to that and you're welcome to pass or or chime in whatever you would like yeah I'm not sure about um within the library but I feel like there have been questions around around this um like how to call things what to name it um isn't everything going to be digital or you know things like that for several years and I think while we're still you know and does this as well we sometimes ask a person or a scholar like you know why a digital project and so sometimes we get answers back that well maybe it doesn't need to be one and so I think as long as there's still that kind of idea of you have like you know sort of more traditional methods and you have digital methods whether you call it you know anything else but there are two types of methods I think you know you don't take just a standard you know term paper and copy and paste it onto a website and then I'm doing digital scholarship it's there's more to it thank you great perspective and thank you Alan for your comment in the chat and finally Jay love to hear your perspective on this thanks and I can echo some of Alan's um sentiments here and and coming from a science background you similarly you know we would just we would just call it science and I think we do that the um naturally the more we engage with different audiences across campus we modify our language or we modify the name of the program or the service in a way that um resonates with the audience I think and so sometimes it's research data management sometimes it's data visualization sometimes it's open publishing and open access it could be a range of different things we don't necessarily use the term digital scholarship but I still think it has some value to when we're communicating with certain disciplines as well that do recognize a little bit more what that is and it's that distinction is still very front and center for them so I mean Joan when you have that webinar for a debate on whether or not we still call digital scholarship I'll gladly show up and continue this conversation in terms of the other uh part of your question about when will we get to the space where um you know essentially all library staff have a certain competency to support this I I hope Lauren I hope you're right I hope it's uh some time in uh you know our 10 years here um and I I see the seeds of it at our institution and I think it really started with the number one you need to know what types of questions are things that you can just refer straight to the specialist but you know through those conversations we're learning a bit more that there's appetite to help answer some of those questions and perhaps do it in more of a discipline specific context that we don't necessarily are able to do all the time and don't understand the nuances of specific approaches so I think there's there's co-benefits there for sure and I hope it I hope it continues to progress thank you so much and a big thank you to all of our presenters today you've just been outstanding and I hope that our participants have a lot of food for thought some great examples some great principles to guide their work and um some some new perspectives on the future directions of supporting digital scholarship data intensive and computational research thank you all so very very much we will have a recording of this webinar online and uh we'll have likely the slides from our presenters as well and please see the website for the project for the institutional profiles the um the presentation I made at the spring CNI meeting and the first webinar there's lots of material there and you'll soon find the overall report of the initiative there as well so thank you again and I wish you a good day