 The Tamil Nadu State Election Commission has finally announced the dates for the urban local body boards. The elections were last held in 2011, and the tenure of the elected bodies expired in December 2016. Though the local bodies play a crucial role in implementing schemes of state and central governments, very less powers are being vested on them, limiting their participation in grassroots democracy. New clicks spoke to M.D. Devasaheb, former IAS officer, on the reforms needed to empower the local bodies. Sir, to begin with, the urban local bodies are delayed by almost 60 years. So in this period of time, we have seen the pandemic and we have seen the flooding in lot of cities. Do you think the absence of local bodies played any role in carrying forward the relief activities here? See, first to answer these, I must give you a bit of a background because urban local bodies and panchayas are the grassroots democracy. Any democracy, as far as India is concerned, is more important, a very highly populist, diversified and federal kind of state. Unfortunately, these are the bottom rung of the democratic fabric, the grassroots. This grassroots democracy was not built in as part of the constitution. Actually, though we had urban local bodies decentralized democracy during independence and even after that and Mahatma Gandhi had openly said that our entire power structure in democracy flows from the people, flows from the villages, flows from the small towns and but in the constitution, this third tier, most critical tier of democracy was not brought in the constitution. Constitution only provided for parliament, central government, union government and state government, state legislature. So what has happened is democracy has been completely hijacked and completely centralized, almost completely centralized in India before they even thought of empowering the grassroots. That was 1988. Constitution was in 1950. And in 18, Rajiv Gandhi was the prime minister. Manishankarayar was the minister in charge of panchayas and local bodies. He gave the idea but that also didn't take off only in 1992 through a constitutional amendment, 73rd amendment for panchayas and 74th amendment for the urban local bodies. These grassroots institutions of democracy was brought in with the constitution. By the time much water has flown under the Ganges, the Cauvery and whatever river you have and the democracy has been completely distorted. Basic fundamental principle of democracy is decentralization. If it is centralization, it is not democracy, it is autocracy, monarchy. So constitution, whosoever framed it, I don't want to name it. The man has done wonderful things in other areas of constitution. But some or other, the constitution makers blundered in this under a false belief that providing grassroots democracy will create caste problems and because lower caste would be suppressed. That was a absurd view in my view because if they had been empowered, they would have come up in the democratic process. So in 1992, let me come to the point now, your question. 1992, it was brought in through the 74th amendment. Even now it is now more than 20 years. Even now this hardly 30 years, hardly any proper law has been enacted. So they are only go through the motions. So this is only grafting. See, this grassroots democracy, the urban local bodies and panchayas are only grafting. Any grafting, as you know, cannot be like your original. We know, say the mango tree is grafting. It can't be the original. So my feeling is, my opinion is the urban local bodies and panchayas are not part and parcel of the mainstream democracy. So they take it for granted. They don't give any importance. Routines, state governments, you see, can state assembly election be postponed? No, it cannot be. Can parliament election be postponed? There will be furor. Whereas state government just for women's pleasure because they can do anything because it is a separate election commission, separate law. They just without any rhyme or reason because they don't give any importance to the urban local bodies. They don't want people's participation because, again, one more point I want to make because it's a very important meeting that we are having. You see, constitution built-in in part four, Directive Principles of State Policy, where it clearly says the control of the natural resources because India was a populous country, very limited natural resources. The control of natural resources will be with the people. They must regulate the natural resources. Now, since panchayatrajo is not there, urban local was not there. People have no control. So with the result, it has all been centralized. All resources have been centralized. Even state government does not have much of a control. We have a ministry in the government of India, Delhi is controlling. I am in Kanyakumari district, the southernmost district. Even to decide what to do here to do with the environmental resources, the natural resources, to the seacoast or the western gods, decision is taken in Delhi. Local people have no role. None of them has been enforced. The problem is that, as I told you already, these grassroots democracy, urban local bodies are being more looked at as a nuisance by central government and state governments, infringement on their own powers. So I do not think because of the wrong move and sort of blunder committed by the constitution because this grassroots democracy is not going to take up because there are a lot of vested interests corrupt, vested interests of healthy built up. They will not reform the structure. They will not make urban local bodies into urban local government unless that is done. I do not think anything is going to take place. Yes, sir. What about Amrut which has been implemented from 2015, which has brought in the projects like Smart Cities and others. Will it help the local bodies in any way? Much worse. At least when, a very good question that you asked, I have written a lot about it. You see, at least there was a fig leaf of reforms when J N N Yoram was there. And there was something moving going on. There was some pressure, people, people's participation was there and there was some movement is going on. But this government came in the center, completely finished off everything, completely finished off. J N N Yoram was thrown into the, thrown out of the windows and they brought the Smart Cities, Smart Cities, nothing but technology, sort of companies to bring technology, fix technology and make it look beautiful and nice. It is nothing to democracy, nothing to do to grassroots empowerment, nothing to do with people's participation, absolutely nothing. It has a centralized planning. Smart City is completely finished off whatever initiative was there to empower the local bodies. In my view, Amrut is only projects. Amrut is not the, I think it was going on earlier. Amrut kind of projects have been going on, water supply projects, drainage projects, all kinds of road projects, all kinds of projects. But the Smart City is completely, this government is totally centralizing power. The present government starting from 2014, they believe in complete centralization. They don't believe in democracy. Whatever little move was there in J N N Yoram to work, democracy was completely finished off. Is there any state which gives some priority and importance to the local bodies in the country? Can you name at least one state? I don't think I'll be able to name because the constitutional blunder is perpetuating everywhere. There may be some beautification, some improvement, some towns may be better governed, there may be better, towns like Indore and some other towns are beautiful looking, they are getting rewards. But democratic-wise, I don't think any state has got. Kerala is one state I can mention. Kerala has a, even without the constitution, they have grassroots democracy from the very beginning. They have a participatory decision making process. But besides Kerala, Karnataka also took good initiatives. But I think they are fallen by the wayside. Tamil Nadu also took good initiatives but seem to have fallen by the wayside. I don't think any state is really giving the democratic decentralization because once you have power, centralized power, you don't want to give the power to anybody. That's a human weakness. Unfortunately, that seems to have perpetuating as far as India is concerned. Thank you, sir, for joining us. Thank you very much.