 Hello. Welcome to NewsClick. Recently, the Union Social Justice Minister, Virendra Kumar, said in the Rajya Sabha that there have been no manual scavenging deaths in the country. Added to that, the Minister of State for Social Justice and Empowerment, Ram Das Atavliya, also said that there have been no manual scavenging deaths in the country. Interestingly, and the bizarre fact is that NewsClick has been regularly reporting many manual scavenging deaths from across the country. And the number of cases in Tamil Nadu is also extremely high. To speak on the matter, we have with us Deepthi Sukumar, one of the core team members of Safaikaramchari Andolan, who is also based in Tamil Nadu. Hello, ma'am. Thanks a lot for joining us. So could you please give your opinions on this statement given in the Rajya Sabha? Yeah, hello. I think I have to say that all of us were very shocked when we heard that statement. Like we were wondering from where the statement is coming from. What was the reason to make such a statement that we felt? One was it was a very foolish statement. Looking at the situation and looking at the numerous media reports and the numerous, the kind of extensive documentation that has been done on sewer and septic tech deaths in the country for the last many years. Now, in SK itself, we have documented. Till date, we have documented 500 deaths in the country in the last five years. And if you look at the parliament itself, I've given a figure that so many deaths have happened in the last year parliament session. Now, this year, they're saying no deaths. So we first, first it was very shocking. And when we were here and we were also discussing it with the community and there are so many families who have lost their father or their husbands and brothers in this in this in this kind of a death. So the reaction first was of total disbelief and then they're very angry that here was a government that could actually deny and try to make these such a shocking and such a blatantly a blatant atrocity as invisible. By just stating in the parliament in the highest house of this country, it was such a lie. So it was a very shocking thing and our community and especially the families who have witnessed the experience these deaths were very shocked because a very sad day for us. And we were very ashamed of what was happening in this country and the way these deaths were being continuously linked to that. SK is a civil society organization. We do not have the kind of resources that the government is having. So with our very, very limited resources and mechanisms, we are able to actually see, identify and extract and expose so many deaths and document them. Now, this year is in 2021 itself, we have documented 28 deaths. So, and if you look at, so why is it that the government is not able to do that? That is one thing. And then what is the answer now? Now, if our women go and ask the same minister who has made the statement, then where is my husband? Where is my brother? Where is my father? Where are they? If you say that they have not died, so where are they then? It's very easy to ask, you know, it's very thing. What will the answer, what is the answer and what face they will show to these people who have lost their family members in this septicant surveillance? It's a very irresponsible and a very foolish statement that the minister has made in the parliament house. And we totally, we are, we are, you know, unaccepting it and we are not accepting it and we are totally rejecting that statement, especially us who have witnessed so many deaths, who have witnessed so much of grief and so much of shock and atrocity because of these kind of deaths. We are totally rejecting that statement and we are totally condemning that statement. As a very inhuman, first of all, and we think that making the statement itself is not atrocity against, it's a human rights violation and atrocity, but denying it. Could you throw some light on Tamil Nadu and the number of cases in Tamil Nadu? It's said to be one of the state's reporting. Ever since they started taking the survey, I think in 2011, we started taking surveys. Since then, Tamil Nadu has denied that there is manuals damaging in the state. Even before this act has come into force, Tamil Nadu has been denied that they've been saying that there is no manuals damaging. They've been giving a zero data only to the ministry. So when that is the case, what has happened is that they were also not making any demands on the central funds for the self-employment rehabilitation scheme. Tamil Nadu has not made any demand. But again, after I think in 2016, 17, they had to take another survey, which was a mandatory survey done by the ministry. The ministry was directly working with Tamil Nadu government to do the survey. So at that time, they did a survey. But during that survey, in Tamil Nadu alone, there was 2,000, almost 3,000 persons have given a self-declaration that there are manual scavengers in Tamil Nadu. In the name of verification, most of them were not at all verified. They were not even, they were not called for verification. And Tamil Nadu government is saying only about 424 persons only have been verified and they have been enumerated by the government for the SR that the self-employment rehabilitation scheme and for liberation, the liberation amount of one-time cash assistant. Now, if the survey had been done, if enumeration is properly done, because when you do enumeration to eliminate manual scavenging and you're looking at deaths that are happening, if that act and if all the schemes are actually delivered in both in letter and spirit, you would actually cover each and every person who's even at risk for this, of this atrocity, who's even at risk in this atrocity, who's vulnerable and bring them under the radar of the government so that they are watched and monitored and vigilance is there and then this kind of deaths could have been prevented. If you see all the 69 deaths that have occurred in Tamil Nadu, not a single one of them were enumerated by the government or brought into the government survey at all. For the last few years, ever since the act has come, schemes are coming, every year they are saying that they're redesigning the schemes, then why are the schemes failing? Why deaths are still happening? Why manual scavenging is still happening? Where are the SAPI Karma Charis? Can we show at least a single SAPI Karma Charis who have been doing manual scavenging from multiple generations, single person who has been empowered in Tamil Nadu, single person, single family who has been empowered, we have to say no. So which means that everything the government has not only failed, I think they have deliberately denied. I mean, clearly there have been compensations given for people, families that lost a person in manual scavenging and there have also been FIRs filed under the Minerals Scavenging Prevention Act and it clearly shows that there have been manual scavenging deaths and the government continues to deny that there have been such things. So what exactly, I mean, you have said a lot of things but what exactly is that one thing the government is trying to prove by doing something, like saying something? I think they're having, there is some agenda behind this. What the agenda, we cannot say because we are just ordinary people over here, we are from the community. But they are losing our trust, losing the confidence of the people. No matter how what they are saying, they're doing so much of 101 crore budgetary allocation. Okay, you do, but where is it? Where is the money? Where is the fund? Where is the scheme? When the minister is making that statement, he knows pretty well that there have been so many deaths. But when you are saying but when you are purposely keeping it out and saying it is not manual scavenging death, what is he gaining by it? Frankly, I'm not able to understand what is the, what are they gaining by this? What is the gain? What is agenda behind it? It's actually very scary. It's very scary. Why are you doing it? I mean, come on, you have to suffer, Karnacharis. We have no political competition for you. This is not a contest. You say one thing, you say yes, and this is not a, they're only asking that, speak the truth. That's all. Speak the truth. They are not even telling that you're telling a lie. No, whatever reason you have said that made that statement or whatever. Leave it, but then now speak the truth. This death has happened. You give us the proper facts. Like you said, there has been compensation given to families that lost people due to manual scavenging and there have also been FIRs filed under the act, the prevention of manual scavenging. So it, besides that, the government is claiming that there have been no manual scavenging deaths in the country. We don't know where this is headed, but thanks a lot for joining us and opining on matter.