 Welcome everybody and welcome to members of the community that are here. Thank you for coming We have a Time constraint tonight because there's been a request to have chief Murad chief Morrison and Randall Who's on his way right now to the police commission meeting at city council by 8 o'clock? so what we're going to do is go through the agenda and finish the This portion of the meeting at 7 15 and then we need to go into executive session. So that's the plan So let's get started any additions or modifications to the agenda Yeah, sit over and know those wondering if we could hear from Winklman again Yeah, we could that's during the public forum. That would be great. Okay Anything else? Okay? So next is public forum Mr. Winklman. Thank you For giving me the opportunity I was hoping this would be a conversation more than just me speaking. I have brought a timeline of My multiple complaints to the police department and What happened through those complaints? I'm happy to explain them. I have a few copies I can hand out. I just had a thought Yeah, and I and I I In in response to your request that it's a discussion Maybe we move to the chief's report and we can wait for Randall's here so that it can be part of that discussion Yeah, is that okay? Yeah, okay Can help you much because I was prepared to forego the chief's report in the interest of time Well, then we'll skip over the chief's report. I just push it just push it back on the agenda. Yeah, and let's Obviously, let's wait for the task force update Yeah Thanks, chief those of you are recognized and served on the police in policies Commissioned with I just wanted to put forth some comments on the process and also Some hopes for moving forward my name is Milo Grant and I to report three just the FYI One of the main issues That is a great concern to me is follow up Follow up on the suggestions that we were able to put forth. I personally don't believe they went far enough We had some members all the way over here We had some members all the way over here and then we were trying to get here But I think we got more there and there being the status quo So I have a really big concern about the status quo Being maintained because I don't think that's an acceptable Resolution so I understand that there's only a certain amount of power That the police commission has and I know that you're having discussions About oversight how that might be able to change Etc. So there's more to come on that I do understand that but I think it's really important that follow-up Really be assigned to someone for responsibility. So for example Going to mr. Whitlemann's situation There were complaints Around social media actions of our former chief These complaints Were made publicly. They were also brought forth by another individual to this commission and There were promises that were made some made by the mayor and we just had a social media policy That was a draft that was floating out there Apparently with no timeline and there were some of us in the committee who were like oh well They promise to do something about it. They must be doing something about it Me while nothing's getting done and look what we have it blows up in our faces in a major way to where we've lost to Talk people in the department's leadership and that to me is indicative of Turmoil that I feel has to be existing in the department, but it's something that people really don't want to talk about You don't want to admit that out loud, but there has to be there just has to be so The follow-up is going to be crucial in that it can't just be lip service like people have to talk about things that are happening. So one of the Suggestions which I think is really important is listening sessions like really engaging All the members of our community like reaching out and engaging certain individuals who can help Engage other individuals in the community that might not want to come to this meeting because this building is not Space for example Even when we lose some of our meetings the library it didn't increase public attendance Because I think we didn't really do a good job of engaging the community Just watch my attention that some of the recordings that are available on the city's website Even though it's a good quality recording You can't maneuver in it Not the same way you could if you were watching this video on channel 17 or on YouTube Where you can go back or you can start listening and then come back and pick up where you left off If that it doesn't allow you to do that So it's it's not for someone who's really trying to get an idea of what happened during the meetings Beyond the minutes because as we know minutes very often don't reflect the depth of conversation that happens those recordings could be They could be easier so that they're More accessible to people someone try to listen to it and they realize that they can't go back or they can't jump ahead Would you know they would feel discouraged about that? So I just want to mention that but the listening sessions are so crucial and I really Think that they're going to be important. I think they're also going to be important to talk to All of the sentences as many citizens as possible When we're talking about we're in a search for So I think those sessions have to start If we are determining what the citizens would like to see in a new police chief and I realize that when you're looking for a new Police chief there's gonna be a lot of factors and I just hope the public isn't forgotten There's going to be the needs of the department and the department's going to have specific leadership needs that they're going to be looking For but the public's going to be looking for things too. We want to get back the trust. We want to to have people Of all backgrounds being willing to cooperate with our police because they can't do their jobs They don't have that cooperation. They can't do their jobs if they don't have that trust one of the other things I was concerned about is There really needs to be a willingness and a desire to do better So when we look at the day-to-day activities of our department, they do good work And I didn't like the fact that because there was some criticism brought forth and some concern brought forth About these use of force incidents that have disturbed some of us That that meant we didn't appreciate the day-to-day work that these officers do That bothered me a lot I did not like us versus them that people were trying to push people into a category Just because you offer up input or criticism that does not mean you don't support the police officers and I Didn't like the fact although I recognize given the volume of interactions that occur That these incidents are a very Small number that doesn't mean what happened is an important and has to be deep dives like if we use a comparison of Doctors at a hospital if you have doctors doing good jobs every day saving people taking care of sick people saving lives But some of them have made mistakes and some of those names you see repeatedly and the hospitals being sued Which they probably are they probably who knows how many lawsuits they have to deal with on an ongoing basis But they have no practice insurance right the police officers don't pay malpractice insurance So it's a very different thing and we would expect that the hospital is looking into the mistakes to make sure That whatever can be done to prevent future mistakes is being done So I looking at that comparison. I found sometimes it was it was lacking It was like well, you know, this is only a small part of what happened and then almost dismissing what happened and dismissing The concerns now that might not have been the the intention, but it kind of came over as the end result It's like okay. I'm here with my time is everyone in the same place With regards to the urgency That we need to be bringing toward these issues And also bias we barely scratched the surface of bias training and I really think that That is something that needs to be looked at especially in terms of are the police officers aware of the history of policing in this country, especially when it comes to marginalized individuals and people of color and how that History has affected how certain groups feel Towards police officers and with that knowledge, they can be armed to create better relationships within the within the city So I have a lot more to say, but I think that covers the gist of it I appreciate the work that you do and hopefully can work with the city council to figure out some kind of Procedure going forward some process going forward for the follow-up and maybe there needs to be Subcommittee to continue to the work because the city council is like we need something we need something on use of force now You've been going at this too long, which we really hadn't been we started late because we didn't get enough We didn't fill all the spots then we had a meeting where all we did was talk about data This is what we want to see and then we didn't have another meeting for three weeks, and then we got binders that were like this big No exaggeration. Those of you in the committee know how big those binders work And then we're meeting maybe twice a month and in the months where the holidays are only meeting once a month So in the scheme of things it really hasn't been a lot of time for the deep diving that was required We had to learn about what was in place before we could even comment on it So that led to a lot of presentations. I took up a lot of the meetings so I feel that there could be a lot more work to be done and I'll leave it at that and thank you very much for your time Let me see Milo Milo. Yes, I'm hi. Hello. Okay, and thank you for your work. Yeah, thanks Thank you for the time on that. Yeah Thank you So Randall to Catch you up We're going to end this meeting at 715 because we need to go into executive session So that you and the two chiefs can get to city council by 8 o'clock was the request Yeah, please please please introduce yourself to My name is Gina Clipperow. I am an organizer with Romance Polymigra I work with my justice and we are working to strengthen Burlington's fair and impartial policing policy and I'm here today because I was just notified That there would be a discussion on the fair and impartial policing policy tonight And I'm not entirely sure if it is the version that we revised We being migrant justice ACLU Vermont and our our group of community organizers supporting this effort But if it is not the version that we have proposed I would Propose that in the future in the near future city council is currently working to Push this forward and it should end up on your desk soon if it's not tonight And if the version on your desks tonight is not the version that we put together I would just encourage you all to be open to the fact that You know this police commission there was a variety of public forums that took place in 2017 surrounding the fair and impartial policing policy and there was resounding community support for the strongest policy possible and that is what we are putting forward and it is a The policy is Taking the strong aspects from the Winnowski policy and also is addressing bringing the current Burlington fair and impartial policing policy into compliance with the state law at this point the current fair and impartial policing policy is Is Does not meet the state model policy for fair and impartial policing There were there are certain standards that need to be put in place and it's overdue But while we look to revise the policy, I would strongly urge you all to Consider the fact that we are working with city council to pass a resolution To direct the police commission to adopt a stronger fair and impartial policing policy That is as strong as the Winnowski policy, which is stronger than the state model policy And prevents any form of collaboration with immigration and customs enforcement and the Burlington police department This is a crucial issue. It's time-sensitive. We are trying to get this done Within the next month. We had hoped to get this on the city council agenda tonight Unfortunately, it will not be on the city council agenda tonight. Kurt Wright the city council president has decided to push it to later We are hoping to get this passed as soon as possible sometime in March So stay tuned for more information if you don't already have our policy at your fingertips as I said before there's something that was put together with migrant justice and Verified by the ACLU of Vermont If you'd like any more information, you feel free to email me I'll put my contact information down somewhere and or you can reach out to minor justice Okay, thank you. Thank you. Gina. How would we know whether we have the most current policy? How do we how do we know if we have the most current policy? So do you mean what you're talking about tonight? Yeah, you mentioned that you mentioned a couple of times You know if we have the most current policy and I don't see the version control Your changes with your suggested edits we because we have edits that don't include that But I've actually never seen the migrant justice ACLU proposed in the context of the the draft Yeah, we have the edits and actually joy from the city attorney's office when it comes to the agenda Has I don't I'm not sure joy will be able to explain that to us We have the edits that came directly from the city attorney's office. So the suggestions So we're going to be talking about those tonight. Yeah, those are those will be different Yeah, city attorney. She's done a preliminary review of the edits that we put forward but The last email that I saw she wanted to talk to the agents office about the version that we proposed So I don't think that that's what is on your desk. Okay, so we've got some edits to bring us up to the State state law. Yeah, exactly And then the Winooski policy Goes beyond and it provides further protection for immigrant communities it is has also been certified by The AG's office for this for the state of Vermont, but it is stronger than the state model policy and According to age 5 1 8, which is the House bill passed in 2018 any policy that is as strong as Essentially the state model is considered a floor not a ceiling. So any policy that goes stronger and provides greater protection Will be certified by the AG's office It just has to at a bare minimum meet the state model policy standard And so this goes above the state So they conduct a review of the policy and once it's certified, it's it can be passed into law I'm not I'm not familiar with the AG's office certifying anything That is consistent with the state model policy So remember back in in 17 when we when we did of what was it at 54? Yeah, and it was so Jen and I sat with the ACLU as well as migrant justice working on this policy back a few years ago, right and I think the last iteration that came out in I want to say it was 18 no 17. I think that's when I kind of walked a step back. I think you did too a little bit There was a directive that Indicated that the first step needed to be that the attorney general needed to go in and ensure that it was You know past the what is it title 8? All of those other numbers that go with that That that was one thing that needed to happen then after that the console needed to go in So there was a number of steps But as I recall there was a requirement for TJ to go in and ensure that they comply with federal standards Joy, I don't perhaps you could have more to say but I believe that the speaker is leading you to believe That the Attorney General's office has approved a policy that is more restrictive than the state model policy That is not the case that I am aware of so I just want to make sure that we're really using our words carefully here This the Attorney General's office does not certify a policy that is that makes agencies ineligible to receive federal funding Just going through these policies to make sure that they have at all of the elements that the state model policy has and then The police department required to adopt that policy if they fail to do so they're considered to have adopted the model Can you say that one more time? I'm sorry So what what the state AG's office is checking for is just that policy Contains each of the elements that are in the state's model policy It's not a statement that the policies comply with federal law Right, so I want to make sure we're clear in the state Yeah, the AG is just making sure that each agency meets the elements of the model policy Right, I believe that we were being led to believe that more restrictive policies were quote certified by the AG's office And I don't believe that is the process is the technical term is certified I wasn't trying to lead anybody to believe anything other than that That is the time sure as long as the policy that is presented that meets the standard of the model policy They're gonna say yep met all the essential elements of that The essential elements, but I I think we should just move on from this because we could split here But I don't think I heard that I don't think I heard what you're saying either I did remember that there was a it's a time where TJ was verifying that these policies were compliant with federal statute These policies that were implemented. I'm not suggesting that that's what I mean that she's saying that she that he's certifying illegal policies We have on the agenda the we're going to be talking about what the city attorney wants us to review So thank you. Yeah, thank you Thanks aside for mr. Winckelman is there anybody else that wants to Participate in public forum Okay, we had Charles Winckelman who wants to address us and I waited to Yep, mr. Oh, yeah for sure All right, so thank you for the opportunity to speak For those who don't know me my name is Charles Winckelman I'm here because I watched last meetings Last meeting last police commission meeting and it seemed like there was some confusion about the complaints that I had Submitted and so I went through my email and found the timeline of the complaints that I had submitted to this commission Which included one on March? 30th Which was never addressed One on April 25th, which eventually was addressed Sorry of this year of last year Yes, yes The second complaint emails Saying that there would be an outside investigation that would take place Which I never got any information about Eventually saying that it was the mayor's decision And that was after a month of not hearing anything and then at one point another What kind of question I had made in May That was just entirely ignored Which included both hard and ash on the email and absolutely no one responded to it at all And so there was two formal complaints one informal complaint, which we're really not ever addressed and and I Guess I mean Mike's here because he also went tried to go through the process here And really we both found it to be so Lackluster It's just the way I'm gonna put it There's a reason people aren't coming to these meetings It's because when people are actually putting themselves out there. I mean my name is still in the media I still have to deal with with this I'm the one who wrote a blog post that that put my own Reputation my own career on the line And the fact that the only reason I'm here today is because Mark reached out to me Is really concerning it's concerning that the chair wouldn't reach out at the co-chair that that No one else in the past three months since any of this broke Reached out to say hey, we would like to hear from you and we would like to Understand what we could do differently And that's really concerning. I know that the Commission doesn't have a lot of power But my understanding was you at least can do this So I'm happy to answer any questions Happy to clarify the timeline Charles, thank you. Thank you for coming I'm glad you did come because I was trying to get to the bottom of this as well because it's right Which is what we talked about this most of this stuff predates me so I am Even if it didn't, you know, I'm still just as much a part of this Commission is everybody else up. I you know accept full responsibility for for anything that that's going on here So I just want to better understand the the timeline are you seeing that you are you seeing that you submitted a a Complaint in March and you in that what that just never was responded to at all. It was never responded to at all The only reason I had any evidence about what the complaint was that I happened to screenshot it right afterwards But right afterwards there was an email From deputy Murad right and del pozo Saying first a please do not respond to him and then a second email from del pozo saying I have a good set of responses You can help me with on Monday. I never got any response to that, which is why About a month later I emailed Michelle Asked if she had gotten it. She said no and then on the 25th the day after I resubmitted a second complaint And I felt like that was never addressed at all Okay, thank you I think from my perspective just to add in there. I think lackluster's are really kind term I found it intimidating. We have that conversation. It's recorded You can watch it if you want Ensuring I remember approaching you before the meeting saying I don't think I'm going to be treated well and My memory of that meeting was that you didn't do much to help that you didn't apologize afterwards Nobody's communicated with me at all about social media policy or Solicited my input even though that's something I talked to the chief about three years ago And I think the really odd part and I keep saying the same thing is that My process started three years ago with the what felt like a good meeting with the police chief Where we we came to some agreement and I left espousing his virtues in the community So So And and it's odd for me right so Charles is talking about his reputation community, you know at my job I need to talk to my boss and say hey, I might be in a news story. That's not comfortable. I don't want to do that Like this isn't stuff. I want to be doing And and it's odd that people are like Hey, you got what you wanted chief. Don't pose. I've got fired. No, like that's not what I wanted What I wanted was a social media policy. I I wanted to come to a meeting and talk about what I thought was an Important topic to the community that I find interesting and I found Absolutely, no engagement and then I found somebody going back on the agreements and when I said what's going on there I was told I get to do what I want Actually have an email or I was informed that what I was asking for led towards fascism I mean like and I don't need to get into cheek. Don't close this history And I actually think he's a fine person, but there's this weird dynamic of like Feeling framed as an aggressor in all of this And it's just odd And unsatisfying if anybody asked me if I thought they should engage in this process I told them yeah, I would be like you don't like the wind man like that's my advice I don't engage you're gonna be treated poorly. You're not gonna get responses and That's what I call for both of you. I'm sure you're fine people and you're busy and there's a lot of reasons, but It's been pretty ill manner I mean and I would say the the idea that the commission Would go around and speak to the public and ask for the public to be honest and to share some of their stories I I I can't see this commission doing that and I can't see people wanting to come. I mean I Don't think most people see this commission as being on the side of Citizens and yes, there's not supposed to be that divide but for a lot of people there is and I don't see Anyone coming to this commission in feeling this is a safe space That this is a space where people can share about the brutality that has happened to them I have friends a friend who got beaten back in November and got tased he is not coming to this commission. He has zero interest in coming to this commission He has zero interest in in filing a police report or or a complaint Because that's how little trust he has in this entire system Charles was that that first complaint you filed was it filed online? Yes. I'm asking this question just for a specific reason Yeah, it was The screenshot I have is the Burlington Police Department online citizen complaint form It has the submission date. There's no number to it unfortunately, but it has the time 1807 I mean, I would add that Five minutes after Right forwarded that and said Justin FYI, please do not respond. So I mean it was responded to internally very quickly Yeah Sorry to go on about all that I guess the question I have is like is there any Should we come back? You all any motions to change processes like Like that's that's the reason why I invited you here is because yeah, I mean Mr. Five actually called the police chief and suggested to him that he apologized to you Because I thought the chief should apologize to you for that meeting But obviously he didn't need what I suggested I was hoping that the chief was going to do make the choice that I was suggesting But just so you know, that's the discussion we had because I I don't want to speak for others But I didn't think that that meeting was The chief's the best behavior to be honest great And so what is is problematic in that situation like thank you for doing that and I mean this genuinely like thanks and I understand that what I'm asking for is an active purge But he has since been fired That apology wasn't going to come to me Right, and maybe he told you it came maybe he didn't I don't know But now you have a relationship with me and you took no steps to repair that relationship And he was going to take no steps to repair it because he's been let go and and that's terrible for him but The relationship between you and me is only getting this information put into it Because I just showed up here on the invitation of somebody else and so What my expectation is Or what my my hope would be and I again I'll say it's hard to do That's a hard thing to do would be that once he got that go where you found out that he didn't apologize That you reach out to me and you apologize and and that didn't happen and now like it kind of can't Hear what you're saying, but I can't apologize I'm not going to apologize for the chief and that wasn't the commission asking him to apologize That was me speaking, you know, we didn't talk as a commission and say that was just me speaking with him directly a look In my opinion you owe in a month of an apology so You're right. I didn't apologize You're right about that Like there's a million ways you could have intervened and tried to repair that relationship with me. Hey, that meeting was a rough one I hope you'll come back Hey, like there's there's a lot of things you could have said and they all would have taken an active courage and I get that that's a big ask and It didn't happen and that's That's all there is to it, right? Not there's a lot of things that don't happen in my life like that I wish did and so like I'm not trying to judge it for it like I wish I paid my bills on time I wish I was better to my friends and respond to them or like Happen so I'm not trying to present this as it doesn't I'm presenting it as feedback that like It's only happening because I was invited here by more Yeah, let me let me just say that the there's there's a kind of a method I think to at least my madness and I'm hoping that there's you know That we would pick up on this is that there we need some closure Everybody needs closure. I'm glad you came speaking of acts of courage This is that I really you know, I really personally as a commissioner. I offer an apology Okay, I can't speak for the rest of this commission. Okay, but it pains me to see what it is that you have experienced Personally, okay, and I hope that what we can do is we can figure out internally How we can go about you know making the necessary adjustments so this doesn't occur in the future so we can better understand what transpired So we can be better Conduits to our community. That's that is why I'm here to serve you. I think that's my hope too. Yes Thank you for coming. Yes. All right. Well, I appreciate you both coming. Thank you Thank you anybody else from the public. Thank you We're skipping the cheese report Task Force update The update is the report. Thank you for sending that to us Are there any highlights or anything that you'd like to talk about in that? So does this get presented are you presenting it this evening to the Commission I'm showing up to City Council tonight. They have the report I don't know if they're going to ask me to make a presentation or not. I wasn't intending to. Okay Okay My understanding is that City Council is going to review this and most likely make a resolution that kicks it back to the police commission to look at all of the recommendations Okay, that's what I don't know if that's going to happen, but I think that's what's going to happen I just want to thank you because I thought it was I know it was a short time period a lot of diverse opinions And it's not an easy thing to accomplish, but I do think it gives us some things to work on All right So there were suggestions both for police commission and as well as you know for mayor City Council In a process by which people get notified about things so like so not not all the recommendations were for police commission But there are obviously a number of recommendations that were for the police So were you gonna Go over that report at all with us today or is that what the purpose of this update is for? so again, I mean I I Distributed the report. I've never had a chance to read the report if people would like to go over it. I'm happy to I think people don't want me to read it for a year But I was just wondering if there was there was anything that Highlights the report. We do have a community in the room. Maybe I don't know that they've seen the report Well, I mean so the report is getting presented to city council tonight and again not because of my Snapshot in my calendar. I did not have this meeting scheduled for tonight. So I apologize for that There were the board was divided into three basic sections The first section was with respect to use of force policy There were recommendations made about how a use force policy for BPD should be updated Again, I won't go through those items point by point, but I'll just say that there was One of the things that the committee Encouraged BPD to do in updating this force policy was to Emphasize and clarify the extent to which de-escalation is expected of all officers and Updating support policies that that is so those expectations are clear. So that would be some of the some of the The ways of summarizing what's happening in the first section. I use the force policy the second section is talking about the The way in which the police commission serves as a kind of oversight in an oversight capacity One of the questions, of course, is just how it is that oversight happens in Barlington as a community as a town And so there were discussions about whether or not the the fundamental Framework of how oversight happens should be changed or not that fundamental framework right now is that the police commission again serves as primarily an oversight by in the sense that it has Visibility into decisions that are made but it does not have ultimate Decision-making power does not itself discipline officers and also the police commission does not have Independent investing for power does not have subpoena power etc. So there were some discussions about Whether or not that overall framework was the was the appropriate framework the decision of the committee as a whole was that The police commission could serve to have some greater I will say investigatory powers in the sense that the police commission should be into that Complainance should be encouraged to talk with members of the police commission in order to share their opinions and perspectives And that meant that the police commission should also be encouraged to follow up with complainants about Resolutions of their complaints. I think that might go some way towards addressing some of the concerns that were raised by The fight with Mr. Winkleman about not hearing what was happening with their complaints But the committee as a whole Did not think that it was Necessary for Burlington The committee as a whole did not recommend a fundamental change to whether or not the police commission should be directly disciplining or Doing independent investigations of complaints There are some practical obstacles to doing that including the required changes of the City Charter require changes of the union contract, but we didn't That we did not limit our discussion about how oversight should happen based on Matters like that. So it was you know, so people still discussed and and debated what kind of Oversight model for the police department should have Independent of what sorts of practical things would need to happen in order to make that change happen There were some other changes with respect to how oversight should happen but again Some of some that involving the role that the Burlington police mission should play in complaints involving the chief As you know, so so the thought was that there should be the Burlington police commission should have some clear oversight over the behavior of the chief And that should be made explicit. It's not already explicit and also that That the police commission should receive complaints in a more Prompt fat and more prompt in a regular fashion I think we could have seen them so far then we should have access to those complaints In a way which goes beyond the way the access that we have currently We've had some discussion on the police about that as well. So that has been basically wrapping some of the recommendations The third section puts up those sections about a list of other Suggestions that the committee made which kind of I don't want to say it's a kind of potpourri But there are other issues that we didn't have the chance to talk when talk about in as much depth Because city council requested that that the committee focus its attention on Use of force policy and oversight who made several of the recommendations as well including a recommendation that That BPD have further Social service partnerships perhaps mild after Denver model that we've discussed in this commission in the past You know came involving social service workers with Riding along with officers The recommendations about this the police commission having meetings in the community rather than just having meetings here There are also recommendations that the police department make further all breaches into the community rather than You know in order to kind of Develop relationships and repair relationships with the community I could probably go down that list in order if necessary, but I think that's useful for highlights Mellow talked about the volume of information that this committee had to synthesize a huge amount of information That went to it over close to a dozen meetings this group dived into tremendous amounts of material and Came up with a wide range of different ideas and not always in the most Coherent or formal kind of ways and somehow Randall was able to synthesize that take a Huge array of both information and ideas and proposals from all across the spectrum and find Consensus in that when we had never at least very rarely had formal votes of such consensus during the process and nevertheless Carve that out create this report entirely single-handedly bring it to the body at the final meeting in a way That did finally have votes for consensus on each point and produce a document. It's not going to be presented to the council And it's it's stunning that he did it. I don't know quite how he did it. We have a use of force policy draft that is Largely important with what's recommended in here And can be tweaked additionally based on the input of this body and other bodies, but the document that is the committee's History is his and his alone and it's phenomenal huge amount of work I found it curious as the newcomer that the committee's report intersects with everything we've talked about already Yes at the risk of insulting anyone's great idea It feels like it's redundant and that this body should be able to handle all the things that are in that report and it dovetails nicely with the Trying to update the Well, the police commission in this way because it could also be the role of the police commission in Fill in the blank policy development, etc. So I thought that that report fits nicely with where I perceive we are right now on on this That policy that came out of there What's next on it? Yes, that draft policy is is going to be revamped based on the final meeting of the committee and then Once approved by the chief of police will be presented to the police commission But we'll probably wait to see whether or not anything comes from tonight's meeting with the City council to determine whether or not there's additional input there Prior to making the draft changes what was presented to the committee in draft form is largely what informed the recommendations here These are recommendations for stuff that's largely in the draft that they already received to the extent that there may be one or two Things here that the draft needs to readdress will do so Incorporate whatever other inputs and eventually present it to the committee the commission as we are required to do So this body will be the last stop This body is the approval body for all directors Okay, so we wouldn't we wouldn't see it before such time is up the other What you have is likely or possibly will be updated based on feedback that that we hear at the city council meeting tonight So that there might be another iteration of this draft to come to you. Okay. Thank you And I'll just say one thing just really quickly. I mean so great I did see the draft use of force policy in constructing the report But also again the the the items that that the committee identified for things that the draft that the use force policy should include Where I think also discussed separately and that was kind of part of this entire process There are also things that were recommended by various Organizations across the country for what use good use of force policies should look like both, you know, please force and also community force Community organizations about what use of force policies should look like so So I don't think DC me I was suggesting that but it wasn't kind of tailored to what was already in the report that that we looked at it was based on a Number of both the discussions in the committee and also research about what use force policy should include Well the draft in turn was defined by the previous half dozen or ten meetings that he proceeded in and all of things That have been talked about in that process Great well, I can't imagine how difficult it was because you're also taking folks on the committee that are not need to be educated on policing before they can even have and Understand all of the current policies and then have an opinion. So it's a So thank you Last meeting we talked about having input and I and I don't know if anyone here in From the public wants to talk about that but we decided we said let's put on the agenda Some public input on some characteristics that we're looking for in the chief of police Would anybody from the public like to Share any thoughts any commissioners want to share any specific thoughts Other than what we talked about last time No, okay Joy Please The new police commissioner Thank you, okay So joy for is from the city attorney's office and you all got a copy of the proposed changes to the fair fair and impartial Policing policy and She is here to talk about those with us and answer any questions we may have So just to begin this the draft that you have in front of you These are just the changes from the city's attorney's office that came about after discussion with the attorney general's office So these are the changes that we need to add State law and So that is all that is in the structure and those are in section seven. It's D and E And this language is taken from the state's model policy So is it of the opinion of the city attorney's office that with these changes this puts us in compliance? Yes, and that this was the result of fairly lengthy conversations with the attorney general's office And they agreed that these changes will bring the city's policy into compliance Okay, and my understanding is that this is also being put forth. I mean city council is still is looking at this Is that true on March 9th don't believe so At least not tonight. Not tonight. I think it is on March 9th March 9th. Okay So I think for us does anybody have any questions for joy about the changes their proposed changes in D and E It doesn't sound like it's something we should really Vote on because we should need to wait until after the March 9th meeting from city council to see if there's anything Agree Because I mean have you had a chance to review the proposed changes by By migrant justice and whether those would in fact put us out of compliance with federal law Yes, and so it's the city attorney's opinion that those changes would not be in compliance with federal law Is it do I understand that there are four requests? Okay, and so the city attorney's office looked at each of those four Items, yes, we've gone through the draft that I believe was the most recent draft that was sent to us And to address I believe the state did Say that when new skis policy is in compliance with the state law Which is that minimum of it has every element of the state's model policy? However after talking to the Attorney General's office They were not reviewing to see if that policy was in compliance with federal law And my understanding was that their position is that when you seek policy is not in compliance with federal law So the you're saying it is in compliance with state law Yes But it's TJ saying it's not in compliance with federal law Correct Not when the state said that yes this has every element of the model policy They were not commenting on whether or not It was compliant with federal law and they indicated to me that they thought it was not so You may not know this but when TJ reviewed the policy I did find Jim the segment I was looking for is back in section 5 of act 54 in 2017 it says on or before 2017 the criminal justice training consult in consultation with the Attorney General shall review and modify the The model fair and impartial policing policy to the extent necessary to bring the policy into compliance with title 8 in 1373 and 1644 so it's the model that the Attorney General needed to actually review So I'm assuming that what he did was is he That they were in compliance with the state policy in 17 I'm not sure I'm not sure when that determination was made But when I spoke to them I made sure we were talking about Their version of the policy that we have been seeing and has been included Do you know how much community oriented policing services grant money is on the line? I Do not have an answer to that The only funds on the line are justice assistant grant funds in total that was a total of $38,000 Those funds at this point in time as of December those funds had almost entirely been spent and There was no Inter there was no indication from the folks that we spoke with At the police department. I don't have the email in front of me to give you the name But it was someone who's involved in grants and applications There was no indication that they're if they are going to apply for further funding therefore the threat of withholding funds as a result of this policy Proposing compliance with section 8 1373 is not a threat to Burlington's funding Yeah, thank you for that So and even if it was wouldn't it be it would be a fiduciary fiduciary Call made by the console anyway if they wanted to if they wanted to risk if they decided they wanted to take that risk But certainly we're not we're not gonna make that decision, right? I would object to any notion that the city council sets policy for the Burlington police department this body sets policy for the Burlington police department the council Advises the commission can certainly advise the chief of police But the city council does not set policy for the Burlington police department. So why we take the policy? According to city charter Burlington City Council does have the authority to set all of the authority and for the Burlington Police Department and that is what happened in 2017 with the passage of the Burlington Fairland partial police policy that is currently in place. That was a resolution to adopt a particular Fairland partial police policy by the city council voted on by city councillors put into place the police commission was involved in Reviewing that policy and making sure that it was aligned with the interests of Burlington police Make sure that there were there was engagement from the police department in that and chief the former chief He was in support of that policy and So yeah, it's a policy that we're now amending again. Yes It's it's it seems like it stands a reason Isn't it why we're taking it over for them to review before we take a look at it in the first place I'm sorry. We're not we're not going to override the city council only well So when you say that the city charter grants city grants the city council The ability to set policy for the Burlington police department with what in the city charter? Are you looking at? So I'm looking at section 184 same powers and duties the first sentence is the city council shall make rules and regulations for the government of the entire police force and shall fix the qualifications of applicants for positions and Service on set force and the chief of police jump burnish the city council with any information they may require And our authorities delegate from that so again the the question I was asking or the statement I was making really was This the fiduciary responsibility for making a decision like that just like a decision is made at a statewide level on policy concerning a Woman's right to govern her own body for example or a constitutional amendment or marijuana laws or the Constitution, you know eradicating slavery when it's still permitted in the 13th amendment. Okay, all of those fiduciary responsibilities They lie on the console. It's not on us So if they figure that they want to allow this policy to move forward then they got to figure out where to hell to get That $38,000. It's just that simple. I Don't even know why we're actually having that conversation at this level quite frankly because if they say we have to do it So we do well The city attorney asked us to review this So So again, I apologize. I just had to get my own. Could you give me the section again? You know Everything you said might be true and I can promise you I'm not present when that happened About the city council imposing policy. I will tell you that that's a one-off in my experience that that is Not the way the process of policy development has happened and I think you guys are the historical based on the last four or five years knowledge Barers of this all the directives that back in the day before I left in 2013 the chief of police wrote policy period and The police commission has a much more established role now in the review and adoption of those policies so it's a much more of a Not the police chief just writing it and saying this is what our policy is going to be So there's a much more active role of the commission in that if the city council promulgated an FIPP policy That sounds to me like a political one off That is not the standard operating procedure for the Burlington Police Department and candidly I would be say it loud and clear It should not be separation between Politics and administration of a police department, and that's what I understand the role of the police commission Between the two worlds, so I think that the you're right There is a separation between politics and policy But the politics drive the policy and all I'm getting that is is that you know The city console is of the political opinion that that is the route that they want to take in terms of sanctuary Okay, then that will drive the development of the policy that's necessary to accommodate that particular political position It's all I'm getting that and you're right They shouldn't be writing policy, but at the end of the day they said we're willing to take the risk But that's why I think the role of the police commission is to be the buffer between the police department and the council in this matter so that Politics are not infused inside the walls Well, let me give you an example There was a resolution that we needed to consider our role in handling citizen complaints That was a resolution that came from the city council, but the city council is not writing the policy for that So I think we're kind of both saying the same thing the city council can say can write a resolution to say We want you to look at this and here's here's our resolution states now Commission go do your work But my final my final say on this is just and then I'll leave it alone is is that at the end of the day? If the city council and the mayor and in the office of the city attorney They say we understand the risk associated with this particular policy or with this particular position as the city And and we understand that yeah, there could possibly be thirty eight thousand dollars losses a result of it is more than that Okay a hundred and thirty eight thousand dollars whatever the number is it's not the point John the point. I'm making the point I'm making the well at the statewide level. Yeah, I've seen that Got it continuing my thought process whatever that number is what I'm getting at is is that decision is theirs Okay, the number is not important John the decision who makes the decision is important Who who accepts the risk? Certainly I don't know well so again I mean DDO one says that's Divergent Police Department Directive zero one says that the Burlington Police Commission is The sole authority of all department policies and directives governing employees of our police department. I agree. So It is so I there is some At least a parent tension between that and chapter three section 184 city of city charter It's my understanding that has been one of the parts of one of the powers has been delegated to this mission by city council So it's possible that can also be Rescended as it were but I think that it's it's not correct to say that we don't have any role to play in setting that policy I don't think anybody said that I would ask you to not surrender the The current Workflow relative to the promulgation of policy in the police department Yes, I could just just clarify this draft that you have from the city attorney's office is not What is being brought before city council? We brought this here because we thought this mission is the appropriate place for policy And our recommendation also would be that the community groups that are trying to get the more Changes made also bring that here for the purpose of discussion because I think that this is the appropriate I think we're all saying the same thing This is the right place for policy to be developed So what's on the agenda for March 9th for city council? I don't know keep showing up on my city leadership meeting agenda that FIPP is on the agenda So I don't know I'm it's not something that the police department is asking to be on the agenda about I suspect It's the community organizer groups that Proceed that they are going to go to the council instead of to the commission okay So does anybody have any comments or questions for joy regarding the proposed changes that were put forth to us Procedurally are you gonna? Move to push this off until after the city council here input is that I mean I presented a memo to you asking you to adopt changes to our FIPP policy happy to Circle back around after the meeting happens the city council or I'm looking for guidance from our request I mean, I would like us to have a further discussion about this I'm worried that we're not gonna have the time to do that right now And also think there might be more information if you're relevant for our debate online, so I'd suggest that we Put up a discussion until our next meeting That's a motion Second all in favor hi It doesn't feel like we're ready to To vote on this Joy appreciate you coming. Yeah. Thank you Let me ask you this Because it is hard to get work, you know some of the nitty-gritty work done I have two things that I'm thinking about one is as far as the ferret and partial policing It doesn't make sense for two of us, and I'm happy to be one of them To meet with the city attorney and Jen around this And chief mirad Okay, we can have threes anybody else interested in attending Well, just you know migrant justice has I haven't seen the proposed the proposals that migrant justice has put forth I haven't heard the The Rationale and that the the law around whether we should or shouldn't adopt it so that we can have like a full discussion around that So what so that we so that we go and meet with John and The city attorney's office and just sort of dig into it more deeply as commissioners so that we can in a commission meeting in March You know sort of but you suggest just two or three rather than the information be brought to all the commissioners Well, I think the information can be brought to all the commissioners what on what I'm suggesting is that Maybe some of the digging in and sort of some of that work that we can come in and sort of answer questions And I mean it could be brought to the commission the full commission Whatever's gonna happen on March 9th, but I mean I Something's gonna happen that they're gonna make that case publicly on March 9. Yeah, that's true So right, so there's some information that that we would need of course, right? So one obviously, you know, so I've looked at Winooski's Fair and partial policing policy. I've also looked at the At least from a few months ago. I think some of the suggestions by migrant justice about Ways in which our FIP policy should be updated. I don't have information about for example exactly how much Money is would be affected. So I'd like information about that I'd also like information about kind of the extent to you know, whether or not Winooski You know has suffering request for having the policy that they have So I mean so but I more or less accepted at they have it face value the the claim that that the Proposed changes would in fact put PPT is FIP policy at odds with federal policy So I'm not sure what we would get our meeting with the Okay, then other than Information, I think we should discuss what exactly we want to have a policy There Yeah, I mean my personally my biggest concern is what does it mean to not be in compliance with the federal law and what is what are the Consequences to the city and and how is that different than what we have here? I mean, I read through the policy here. It seemed I Mean, I'm not an expert in reading this, but I thought oh, it seemed like especially with the proposed changes that I mean, I'm not a fan of the Burlington police turning over and working with ice And I'm just not a fan of that either. So I look through here and I it seems like we're protecting Our immigrants We're compliant with the state law and Anything that we do towards moving towards that model that when you see is adopted it will be out of federal compliance It will be and we're already more than compliant with With the state law, you're already if the phrase used was that the state model policy is before we are already above that for we have for example a as it states in this a Prohibition against and making apprehensions for suspicion of border crossing we have to witness it That is one of the changes that is making the news you are we already have that in our policy In so far as for example the situation that occurred with the Chittenden County Sheriff's office That was within policy for the Chittenden County Sheriff. It would have been out of policy for us However, there are certain things that we news he requests that are not In keeping for example, they only will share certain information with the person's With the person's permission and we are not going to limit ourselves to that absent questions of legitimate law enforcement Needs as well as public safety concerns. Now that is not the same as saying that we will enforce civil Immigration law, which we simply will not Nor is it the same as saying that we report or routinely talk to any other federal entity about a person's immigration status If that's the sole reason to have a communication that too is out of policy does not happen So there were some suggestions that there were some things that they would be classified as kind of loop holes in the FIP policy So putting aside the question of whether or not they it's proper to characterize in this loop holes Do individual officers have to come to discretion to? you know make this which would be Kind of compliant with the FIP policy, but which might be contrary to what the department You know once that was officers to do now they have to go through a super passing I think at the end of the day Randall is is the bottom line is is you know Over in the new ski the reason why you know, they're not really catching flak is is because of labor Okay, let's just get real so we're talking about it's labor. It's the same reason why we have 1500 migrant workers in the state It's like that's really that's the reason that's what's going on And I think that what we have to understand is it's just one little couple questions is you know Are we gonna go above you know like they did you know it in in accept the responsibility, you know And that's somebody's decision. We haven't decided who it's And the other thing is what nobody's really talking about is is I'm gonna enforce it because there's this thing called civilian oversight of law enforcement That have to hold these folks feet to the fire after we do decide the direction We're gonna go on it, but you can say all day long you can put all day long what you want in this freaking policy Question is is how you gonna enforce it? I don't think that's the question for what absolutely is the first year We did this they the criminal justice training council changed it when nobody was looking at X it absolutely is the question for Dr. Paul's brother policy is good Well, it's also whether or not we can enforce it It's also whether or not we can hold them accountable to the policy. Otherwise, what are you that's that's one of the main reasons why We are in a position that we're in is because at the end of the day, you know, you can change policies all day long if you if If any officer owners force decides he wants to do different. What are you gonna do about it? That's the question, but it doesn't seem I can see different from other policies that might adopt I agree to disagree for any interest of time Can see really quickly why I think it's different from any other policy. I don't understand your question So my suggestion was okay This policy is the same scene the policy we might adopt They're always going to be questions about how you enforce policy My suggestion was that question applies to any policy you might consider sure so in the consider when we're deliberating about what Policy should be adopted The question of how you would enforce that policy is going to be treated the same for every policy We might adopt some suggest that that's a separate question from whether or not a particular policy Because what we're still going to keep coming back to this this idea of where's where's the oversight? Okay, 715. Actually, yes, I asked a question about number seven And I'm asking because I don't know the answer. Okay. I sent you guys a bunch of stuff that I worked on about this What is the What are the rules around having a work session? small group of commissioners or me and all the commissioners where the ones to go up Because this is a lot of stuff that actually there's a lot of things we're already talking about that intersect with this document And I think we could get a lot further down the road In terms of coming up with a draft that's more comprehensive and more accurate Reflects what the overall role of the police commission is and I think that would be really helpful for the incoming chief So I'd like to get it done in a timely manner, but I think a work session a public session where we're we're getting into these lengthy debates So not going to get us to answer your question I asked I lean that question because I feel the same way about the the role of the police commission We're doing citizen complaints. She said we can do one to one of two things We can meet in smaller groups of up to three people Or we can form a special committee of anyone that wants to be on it to do work in between the police commission meetings We just have to do a public notice. We can hold it in an office here We can you know, we just have to make public notice of those meetings And I just I could get a lot further down the road faster if we can I agree have a work session. I Agree with you. I don't know does anybody else have any thoughts around that If we do more than three commissioners, we just have to make the right I was just thinking of where it doesn't get it. I mean if we want it to be open That's fine. It's just for the ease of meetings where we don't have to Right. I don't have any support staff. God lover to post For meetings every time we do a work session if that helps inform the direction So is it in order to make a motion for that for a small group? Should we do that? Do we have three people that are Interested I'm I personally am interested in being part of that small group because this is something that Yeah, we've been working on this for quite a while. Is anyone else interested? Yeah, okay, so do we even eat up to Yeah, I don't think we need a motion. We don't need a motion. All right, so we will coordinate schedules So let me take the recommendations of the task force, which is great because Jebu you were on that we can take Jen's notes Jen's notes And we can cope with a draft that incorporates that but then we as a commission we can look at and it'll just We can make changes to it. I will take the task force recommendations and see how they jive with what I previously drafted See where we need to round it out. Okay. Okay, and we can use that as a starting point for a full session Okay, okay. See you did a lot of work on that other document too, Jen. I did I was a writing machine the last week Okay, so I need a motion to go into executive session. Do you have anything else in the agenda you need to finish? I need to just check up Well, my recommendation is that I Don't think you need to let's you want to do a quick motion to approve the minutes from the last meeting Yes, unless there's any I think there are some quickly on this page two of the minutes on halfway down the page on the Fourth bullet says mission Hughes asked that we will continue a conversation to noted concerns about and what that should say is is about The chiefs background comporting to the city culture or something like that Sorry We're in the minutes on page two If you go down halfway down the page where it says it's a one two three The third bullet in the second paragraph It says mission Hughes asked what that we continue this conversation You following along Okay He noted he had concerns about the chiefs Background comporting to the city culture is what that should say And that's changing it from that. I had I said there had concerns about his previous the chiefs previous background That wasn't quite what I was getting at And then Correct, and then the other one is is down where it's where it says specific traits in that same page On the second to the last one it says commissioner Hughes wants to understand what that should say is is once the chiefs under what's a new chief to understand the existence of racial disparities within the The existence of the of racial disparity the struggles with racial disparities in the in the criminal justice system here That's it That's all I have for changes Motion to approve the amended minutes One very brief personnel related issue and the other item is to You have a list of the complaints I do I have a list of redacted complaints But I still don't know if we've got the information we needed from the city attorney's office about what we can and cannot Share But if we were ready to look at the actual We can look right here. I have I have redacted. We can we can look at them in executive session without the Redacted your question is can we take them home? Well, I have that also questions about all of that Okay, I have questions that I'm not sure how I go to for them The next meeting is the 24th, okay, and we're going to review the draft You know, we didn't get to item number seven We will likely be discussing number six again, yeah We don't need to have that on the agenda any longer And you didn't want to We can push that back, okay, let's put that let's push that back because we're gonna have we're gonna have enough on her Okay, so I just have the fair and partial and the role of the commission. Yeah So I Just want to discuss the point of what we're going into executive session for I think I Don't know that there's ever been an issue chief Morrison about whether or not in executive session That the names have not been redacted. I mean we've She'd like Yeah, so the city attorney would be the appropriate resource to make sure it's in it's consistent with the contract But there are but there are things to review at this Yes, I have I have things to review that we into executive session for the purpose of Personnel and to story matters Thank you for coming