 God's grace, just amazing and extraordinary and wonderful today. We're going to talk about that. I'm Amy Schaefer. I'm here with Tom and Angela. Tom, we have a great. I wonder how many times we're going to say amazing and grace this entire program, but we all know the song, right? Amazing grace. How sweet the sound that saved a wretch, a wretch like me. Yeah, we'll talk about that too. But do you know the story of its author? Two guests are with us today, Bruce Heinmarsch and Craig Borlaise who share the incredible story of John Newton, a slave trader who found amazing grace and wrote the song, but to also share some profound spiritual truths for knowing and applying God's amazing grace in our world today. That's the key guys. I mean, I loved this book and I love the, you know, I love history. I love the story, but how do we apply the lessons from that life today? Yeah, I think we're going to find some surprising truths out from these guys about this story that has really created our popular culture even within American society and abroad. When people think of Christianity, they think of this song. This song rolls deep with me because, you know, growing up, I was raised up to sing in church and and I went to school for, you know, musical theater. And anyway, I ended up singing Sandy Patty's version of amazing grace. So if you're of the older generation, I'm not saying I'm old, but if you're, you'll remember that song and the layers and the depths of the richness of the high notes and the low notes and the words and and you're looking back at the faithfulness of God. And then you're looking forward what's to come. And it's, I mean, no matter where you sang that song anywhere in the world, something happens in the atmosphere. The words, it is obviously it was anointed and called by God to be written. You know, I just some of the interesting things. I mean, it's been called the Anthem of Heaven, you know, but Bruce sent us some interesting facts about it. And one of them is that the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. has over 3,000 recordings from various artists from 1930 all the way up until the present day of Amazing Grace. That's the incredible breath and power that it has. It's far reaching. I know I need Amazing Grace. And we'll be talking about that. Well, as we've been talking about most of us are familiar with the classic him Amazing Grace, but the story of the song's author, John Newton, is quite surprising, even shocking. It is really shocking. Joining us now are authors Bruce Hindmarsh and Craig Bourlaise and in their new book, Amazing Grace. They share about the life of John Newton and the surprising story behind this favorite famous song. Bruce and Craig, welcome to Hope Today. Thank you. Good to be with you. Well, let me start. Thanks. It's lovely to be here. And by the way, this is the furthest we've had two guests at the same time. I think we've got Bruce here in Vancouver and Craig, where exactly are you? Yeah, just in south of Oxford, in England. All right. Well, thank you for being with us today. Bruce, I'll start with you. Why? I mean, again, we all have been blessed by the song. Anyone who's been around the church for very long or has heard the song. But why study the life of John Newton? There's some amazing, again, I'm using the word, incredible things about his life. Why study his life? I think there's a few reasons. One is it's a big anniversary. It's the 250 year anniversary of Amazing Grace. As you've been saying, is there any song more well-known in the world worldwide than Amazing Grace? And people maybe know the song, but don't know the story behind the song. And the story is compelling. It's what Newton, if anybody had been through many dangers, toils and snares, it was John Newton. And knowing the story behind the song brings out a kind of richness to the hymn. But also it's a redemptive story. And I think Craig and I felt like at a time when our society is so divided, I mean, the need for grace is universal. But it feels like right now is a moment to retell this story and to be reminded that the need for grace is universal and it's available, that God's grace is amazing. And to try to tell that for another generation. You know, I think one of the things I want to put out on the table right away is that word, wretch, who saved a wretch like me and have a little story. My aunt was sharing with me that a lady from her church said, Why does it say wretch? God doesn't make wretches. So what would you say to that? Why the word wretch and why is that so pertinent to the story? You know, I think it's interesting. There are some people who are embarrassed by that word in the early 20th century and they took it out of some of the revisions and said, you know, amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved and strengthened me or amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved someone like me and yet when life is inconsolable, when the very worst things happen, people want to sing this hymn. They realize that life has a wretchedness and it's part of being honest, that there are times when we just can't make sense of life when suffering rips across our lives and the human condition, it's universal sooner or later, we encounter the way that life's not the way it's supposed to be. And so it's interesting that even the secular 20th century, 21st century uses of this song in popular culture and times of sorrow, they want to use the word wretch. There's a recognition after a school shooting, after the space shuttle Challenger disaster, after 9-11, when people gather and sing this song. We want to be honest that life can sometimes be inconsolable, we stand to need a mercy and grace. You know, as we study the life of John Newton, there's so many things that are, that offend our modern-day sensibilities, but he's not shy about his faults and about sharing his faults in his own writings. Craig, why do you think that is and why, why were you all not shy about sharing his faults? Well, I think Tom, for me, when I first met with Bruce and we talked about doing it, but my initial reaction was like, this probably isn't going to be a very exciting book. I mean, who wants to really write and read a book about a song that's 250 years old? It didn't seem to have much to it. But, you know, you pick out that word wretch and I think that's really, really key. I think when we look at stories, I mean, when we look at true stories, we're interested a lot more in the ones that are full of the grit and the dirt and the redemptive arc ultimately done and just, you know, success without any, without any trial. And I think that for us telling the story in this way, focusing actually quite a lot on his early years, focusing on the stuff which perhaps is slightly uncomfortable, which you might want to sweep and look up it. But that ultimately, I think makes it a more impactful and more encouraging story. So Craig, can you tell us the story behind the author? Tell us what happened in his life that as he's looking back at all of the toils and the snares, what were those toils and snares and troubles that he went through? Well, first of all, I've got to defer to Bruce because Bruce is the brains behind his project. I just do the fluff. Okay. So I'm going to get it wrong now, but you know what the things which really stand out is that Newton's story while it's old and it belongs to a very, very different era, there are some really common themes, you know, he was, he made some classic mistakes, you know, he fell in love with a girl and he was dumb, you know, he, he messed up his career prospects because of this girl. He was rude and he was often tried to be very humorous and it backfired. He got himself in all kinds of trouble and then things kind of spiral and spiral and spiral and he eventually ended up having what I think we just have to describe as a real breakdown. Life was really, it was hard, you know, he ended up in a very, very difficult position, but it was out of that, that he, he was pulled and it's a long, long, long journey then from that place of his early redemption of rescue until he starts to really kind of get what it means to be saved by God. So, yeah, it's distant and it's old, but you know, it's really, I think it's still really very relevant. Bruce, did you want to respond to that as well? Craig said he needed to default to you. Well, I think as we, we're telling the story, we, we wanted it to be a kind of parable in the sense we can all find ourselves in this story, realizing that we need grace because of things that have happened to us sometimes, sometimes awful things that happened to us, but also because of the things that we have done. And in Newton's story, I mean, there is trauma, you know, at six years of age, losing his mother probably something like tuberculosis. His father is away, family tensions doesn't really feel like he fits in his family. There's kidnapping. There is, he is abused alone, far away from home. There is near death, shipwreck. There's near death starvation. There is near death illness. There's, he is enslaved himself and then he becomes a slave trader. But by the end, you, you, you watch this transformation happening slowly, you know, grace wasn't one and done, wasn't just sort of some, you know, all of a sudden he's different. Very much, very different than that. He himself said it was a slow way that grace kind of went to work in his life, but you see a transformed man, a powerful preacher, a spiritual counselor to, to, to thousands. And then in the end, a courageous abolitionist who seeks to destroy the system that he had been a part of and who is willing to speak out. For me, that was some of the most moving part of the book as we return to the story as we wrote some of the things towards the end of his life, where in his sixties he has to reckon with some of what he had done in his twenties and he needs to be honest about it and he needs to speak out publicly and take a certain kind of shame on himself and to really make efforts to try to destroy the system that he had been, had been a part of. I love that you all are choosing to tell this story now and I really believe that through the song Amazing Grace, we're beginning to understand more of God's amazing grace even demonstrated in his life. Within our cancel culture mindset, what is it that you hope we as readers can glean from the very life of John Newton and through this amazing grace he describes? I think we tried to write this story in a way that went between, you know, it's neither raising a statue nor is it toppling a statue. It's neither cancel culture nor whitewashing because as Christians, we as Christians we have obligation to be honest to tell the story as truthfully as we possibly can. And that's all you need to do is to tell the story truthfully. And I think it speaks to the fact that we are all in Adam. We are all in Christ is that we universally stand in need of grace that that need is universal. And I think that's something we need to hear today. I keep thinking of that verse in the book of Hebrews that says the sprinkled blood speaks a better word than the blood of Abel is the recognition that this song written by a former slave trader has become an African American spiritual. It speaks to the fact that this need for grace is universal and it speaks a deeper word than simply recrimination and and a kind of polarization that we see so often in the world today. Well, let me ask you both and Craig. I'll start with you. What line word or part of the song speaks to you? I mean, it just is. It's it's the line of the wretch. You know, that's the thing. So right from the very start when I finally got over myself and realized, no, this this is a really good story and this could make a really good book in my mind. I just kept thinking the title is wretch. You know, it would be a terrible title for but in my mind, that's what it was. It was always called wretch. And there's something just very comforting. And, you know, I told you, Bruce of the brains, you know, hence the last answer. He just says it so well, you know, they're whatever this book, I think leads people to it could be many, many different things. I don't think we can prescribe one specific thing that we want readers to take away, but hopefully by people sharing the experience, entering into it, seeing, you know, Newton's experiences and his his ups and downs to his own eyes, feeling him a little bit for themselves, then I'm sure he's going to speak them in that way. Bruce. Yeah, I think this is one of Craig's gifts as a writer. He's he's an amazing wordsmith and amazing writer, but he can see the he can see the story and some of the universality of this and and the way in which we can find ourselves in this story and there is no depth too low that God's grace can't reach, you know, and but also to reckon with the ways in which we can be self deceived and that's part of Newton's story is there was he received God's grace. He began to respond to God's mercy, but it took time for him to to realize the iniquity of the slave system that he had been involved in and but God's grace continued to work in his life. He said later in life. Custom example and interest had blinded my eyes and just think what it's like when everybody accepts it as customary people. I respect are involved and assume that this is okay example and interest self-interest and it took to see the that's a powerful chain that had to be broken to see that that all of the self-interest and that whole slave system needed to be demolished and that to watch that happen over time in his life. I think is is a very moving lesson. We can be self deceived, but we can become undeceived. We can make amends. We can let God's grace changes over our lifespan and and make us more like Christ. Bruce and Craig as I see you on the screen together, it's like I almost see a picture of amazing grace and I'm thinking about how did it come together that you gentlemen from across the pond, across the ocean and two different parts of the world are coming together to talk about the grace of God. Can you share just a little bit of that story? Yeah. Shall I jump in with this one? Yeah, go ahead. There's our dear friend Charles Morris who's the kind of guy who when he phones you or when he emails you think something's coming through here. This is going to be a request. I'm going to brace for impact and but he's got a great heart and he's got great instincts and I've had the privilege of traveling to Iraq with Charles before to Cuba. He has like the most amazing instincts for sniffing out what God's doing and normally it's current, but in this case it was thinking that actually we need to celebrate me to mark the anniversary the 250th anniversary at the writing of amazing grace. So he's a mutual friend and that's how we got together. So let me ask you just to follow up on that. How does this work when two people write a book? I don't understand. I mean, how exactly do as somebody write one chapter, right? I mean, how do the mechanics of that work? We spent some time together in Vancouver and Craig flew over and we kind of story boarded together and and worked together. It helps Tom that we were eight hours apart. We can kind of work in shifts a little bit back and forth and and the metaphor we ended up using is, you know, I would kind of sue chef and then, you know, in the evening in Vancouver and send something to Craig and then he would cook all day and make something beautiful in the kitchen and then send it back to me and I could adjust the recipe a little bit and sort of on we went. That probably gives too much credit to me. It's really Craig that is the, you know, the writer who captured the story and and the beauty of it. But we kind of cooked back and forth eight hours apart. Well, there was another metaphor as well. The other metaphor is that I was the Labrador and Bruce had the whistle. So I could just run around and when I got when I got lost or when I was sniffing something, I shouldn't have been sniffing. Bruce would blow the whistle and then pull me back. Well, it comes across and again, I highly recommend this book. I devoured it. I loved it. I read it all over the last two days here. But let me just ask you one one quick thing and I'll ask you Bruce somebody watching. You know, maybe they're slightly interested in the story, but they have their own things they're struggling with their own maybe sins that are haunting them or difficulties that they've been through. What would you say is the is the final word to them? What's the word that that would minister to them today? Oh, that's good. Tom, I think if there's anybody who feels like you're you're ready to give up and you feel like perhaps it's too late for me or what I've done is too awful or God's grace might be there for other people, but not for me. I think this is the story for you. I think this is the story that can that can really make a difference that if God could forgive John Newton and if John Newton could find grace and God's grace could change him, then I think God's grace can reach anybody. And in the end, Craig and I have often said we didn't title the book amazing John Newton. It's amazing grace and it's just it's a parable that reminds us that God's grace is deep enough. We could all use God's grace and there's nobody who's beyond God's grace. Well, Bruce and Craig, thank you so much. Thank you for writing the book. Thank you for joining us and in your in your two locations. And again, I highly recommend the book Amazing Grace and when we come back, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to share a couple of verses of Amazing Grace and we're going to just see what God has to say to us today, this day. We'll be right back. Cornerstone Television has believed in the power of prayer sits in Synception 44 years ago. We invest heavily in our prayer line to provide you with 24 seven personal prayer knowing it brings breakthrough, healing and wisdom. Last year alone, we received over 65,000 prayer calls and if you had partnered with us, thank you so very much. And when you give this month, I am so excited to share with you my new book, Praying on another level. It's a 30 day journal to take your prayer life to a new dimension in God. You see prayer is how we separate good ideas from God ideas. It's how we unlock the door to revelation and it's where we get our strength to build up our spirit man to hear from God throughout our day. All that and so much more. So call us now at 888-665-4483 or give at ctvn.org forward slash donate to request your copy. It is time to take your prayer life to another level. We're going to take a little bit of time to reflect on verses one and two found in that very popular song. We've just been discussing amazing grace. It goes amazing grace. How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now am found was blind. But now I see it was grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. How precious did that grace appear the hour? I first believed reading that it's hard not to sing this song that we all hear. I'm like, just read it. Don't sing it, you know, but it is. It's such a beautiful testimony and as the gentleman shared about the story of John Newton, what really struck me about this song and his life is that it was a slow burn of accessing God's grace and recognizing what it meant for him and how he could be more of an extension of God's grace. And for me, Amy, I feel like this song in this story challenges me to say, okay, God, where are the spaces in me that I need to explain and demonstrate out more of God's grace because I've received so much of it. Oh man, a wretch, right? Who saved a wretch? Like basically a sinner. Basically somebody lost doing their own thing. Thank God that Jesus was a friend of sinners and thank God for his amazing grace. No person is too far gone, too far wretched. You know, and even in these lyrics, I was blind, but now I see. And I think about the Apostle Paul, what he taught us to pray that the eyes of our heart would be flooded with light, that these blinders would come off of our eyes. I once couldn't see Christ, but now I can. I once didn't understand the Bible, but now I see. Once I couldn't open the word. I didn't crave it, but now I see. So there is something tangible, Tom, that takes place as a follower of Christ or when you're coming to Christ that you didn't see. And then all of a sudden, I mean, what's that threshold where I don't see, but now I see. And once you see, you can't unsee. So that's what we're praying for you today, that you'll come to know and experience for yourself. The amazing grace of God. And once you've seen, you'll never go back in Jesus' name. Yeah, you know, I think of a guest we had on earlier who said when they came to Christ, they came to Christ at age 30 and when they came to Christ, it was like the colors were brighter. The trees were greener. The sky was bluer. And it just, we do see differently. But you know, guys, the second verse always spoke to me. Grace told us grace that taught my heart to fear and grace my fears relieved. Isn't it interesting? The two uses of the word fear. And I thought of my dad. I had a great dad and whenever dad was around as your as a little kid, my fears are relieved. You know, you get scared at night or something. You hear dad's voice. All of a sudden, your fears are relieved. But it also taught my heart. Dad taught my heart to fear. I was doing wrong. The fear of God came upon me when dad came in the room. Okay. And that's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. And John Newton, he felt that he felt that that the wretchedness of his previous life being a slave trader. And you know, one thing I didn't know until I read this book is that it wasn't like he was a slave trader way in the back. He got saved. The spirit of God came in and he quit slave trade. No, it was a process. He was still slave trading as a Christian. And we say, well, how could that possibly be? Again, he was he talked about. He was subject to the the conventions of the times, you know, and the practices of the times. And but God had his way eventually and it taught his heart to fear doing the wrong things and to have comfort in having his fears relieved. That's always spoken to me. Yeah. And I think that's the point of it is that even as a believer, if you're sitting here today and you're like, man, I know that I'm wretched. I know that it was by God's amazing grace that I was saved. It's an invitation to cry out and ask God, Lord, let my blinded spots in my life be open. Any hatred or malice or or anger that I have towards people or or customs that I've gotten comfortable in that are not your way. God, change me. There's always more of Jesus that we can experience and that we can extend into the world. So true. And you know, this isn't just about this song. Isn't just about looking back and thinking about your sin and thinking about what a wretched word and reminiscing, but this song also brings you into when we've been there 10,000 years, bright shining as the sun. We've no less days to sing God's grace than when we first begun. Heaven is real. Eternity is real. God's grace is amazing. His love is fantastic. It's hard to even put into words. So I just want to ask you, are you walking with God today? Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? This is the bottom line. This is this is honestly all that matters in life. This is the only thing that matters. Well, I'm so busy. I've got I've got to do laundry, dishes, kids, school work, blah, blah, blah. The only thing that matters is your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And once you've met him, you have met amazing grace and that brings hope today. On tomorrow's hope today, explore 30 amazing descriptions of who Jesus is and what he is focused on. International evangelist Dr. Steve Foss examines who Jesus is as presented in the book of Revelation that will help you gain a more deep and intimate knowledge of Jesus character, nature and authority. Don't miss tomorrow's hope today. Cornerstone Television wishes to thank all our faithful viewers whose consistent prayers and financial support have made this program possible.