 So excited to be here with Peter Thank you to the slush organizers to bring us together always a pleasure and Peter I think we're now certified old right after this introduction Talking about what Europe has traveled over the past few decades And I suppose it's our third downturn together and it really took me down the memory lane When I took a venture class at business school over 20 years ago The professor was American The curriculum was American the case studies were from Harvard and the companies were from Silicon Valley and look where we're now And in those days the kind of the European tech company was SAP But actually in the background you were building be bit Yeah, be bit is the we already started that in 1997 and what we did is what many European founders do and that is we sold way too early At the time a billion was a hundred million when we could sell for a hundred million. That's what we did and we were out and Financially it worked out, but the mostly it did not we weren't done yet But we just sold because hey all the owners get a few million and that sounds very attractive and We didn't have many examples of companies that kept going. So it was the European thing to do you have some money you sell Well, I guess there were no Peters and Adiens for you at the time and we watched be bit. I remember from the outside and After you had sold the company you were definitely the team To go and back again. Even the name suggested that Adiens means for those who don't know in a South American dialect Dutch dialect it means all over again and The first seven folks the seven founders were the same ones as be bit. So from the outside it looked like a no-brainer, but I guess Yeah, it was different because after we sold which like I said was financially successful emotionally unsuccessful We didn't think we would be back in payments But then we all went off to do our own things. I signed up for lock up for two years worked for a large company for our BS At a certain point we regrouped and Then if you look at how much things we still could do and what we learned we thought let's now get back in and Really build the company as it should be built and one of the things that that actually resonated with me is If your company gets acquired by a large company and you always hear the same stories how the founders don't like then how it's difficult and That's exactly also what happened for us. Our BS was a great company, but They had multiple platforms everything became a locked because You cannot go to a new platform if everything that you're building from is still changing so everything got frozen for years All our customers were complaining I was of course being difficult and in those discussions I got to remark Peter. Do you think that company that we bought bibbit? Do you think it was successful because of you or despite you and they were sort of suggesting that obviously it was despite me So when we came back, I thought like let's prove that point. That's an interesting challenge Were we successful despite ourselves because just it was the right timing or because of ourselves? So there's a lot of I'm not a formula one driver But there was a lot of feel that let's put ourselves on the line again and see if we can win this and show Even now that it's in that that there are large payment companies show that it's skill and we started in the worst times We started in 2006 in the middle of a crisis Yeah, I guess entrepreneurship doesn't Doesn't know doesn't pick a time right you saw an opportunity From what we saw the ambition had changed clearly you had a bigger prize In mind, but but also I would go further I would say if you did it at a different time or different place Maybe it wouldn't have worked if you started this second company in Silicon Valley Maybe you would not be able to take a bunch of these really unorthodox Steps, I mean at the time like stock options didn't exist in Europe But yeah, so it's funny you use the word price But the price for us was to show the market that we could outsmart the other suppliers The price was not a financial reward The price was we built this very large company with a long-term view and we made many decisions We took years to really benefit from but that was all because our price was we need to outperform We need to beat and we need to prove To have employees on board that share that mission that want to put in a lot of work Which only gets rewarded at a later stage for that we used The opportunity to buy at the last round that we were funded So many employees in the beginning say the first 20 employees all put in some money 5,000 euros 10,000 euros What you could miss we kept it Accurate salary to avoid that a rich uncle buys our company So it was if you were earning 50k you could buy up to 50k of stock that program has been Incredibly successful and now my co-founder started a new company Tabby and he's doing exactly the same and the vast majority of the employees again today Whereas they're in between has been so much money around and where engineers could ask for for Stock options over and above salary Still they're buying into the company themselves with their own money and That means that those employees are not are really becoming co-owners and that you really share the same mission So that would be something if if you want to pick up something in this talk consider that consider Giving your opportunities an opportunity to employees to be part of it Even if it's with a very very small stake. Yeah, I mean, it's a it's an incredible story of winning mindset and and getting the ultimate level of buy-in From from your from your colleagues from your team and ultimately the full commitment to go the whole way How do you I mean in this case? How do you balance? Loyalty versus excellence, you know in what when when when when when everybody becomes a shareholder You know, how do these I just wonder if I if I were a fly on the wall these tough conversations when You know this engineer you mentioned is an important shareholder and and performance may not be there I Think you should separate out the two so if you are If you are a good lever you get to keep the stock and You have to leave anyway The stock were certified so they didn't have any voting rights. So you avoid that should there be That somebody feels shortchanged that he cannot obstruct future decision-making in the company so that's how we did it if you're a bad lever we could reverse and We could reverse the stock transaction. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it's you know it just underscores that you were determined and that you just went for it and For the founders in the room I suppose the the lesson is that the confidence that at least from the outside You were just determined to filter out the noise and from what we've seen, you know working together There's never been any sort of zigzagging, you know, there's good times. There's bad times The market has gone through cycles, but there's never been any drama That's always what it's looked like from the outside We started in 2006. It took us five years to get the profitability But it also took us five years to to see that it was actually working out So with hindsight it seems to you like oh you were determined and then you just worked it out And you were very confident that means that for years. We didn't know if we would survive I Remember the day that we had three calls so we were the three of us the founders one of the co-founders went home And he said I'm gonna take a bath and I'm gonna sit in the bath And I want to feel the water right till here because that's reality and then I can not only visualize it I can feel it. So it's not true that from day one. It's like oh rockstar team easy No, we had our rough times and But I think I consider us part of the cockroach generation and it's not a term which I invented myself but the cockroach companies are the ones which are Running on very little money. We had our employees chipping in We took very very little money from From the outside could fund a little bit ourselves, but we weren't endlessly wealthy and that's how we move the company to a stage where we were Profitable where we felt that we had something to A base to growth and that's when we start to have discussions with you when we felt that okay now We build something but the resilience how we build it was enormous. Yeah, and Ever since we call it building something from nothing because you genuinely took very little capital and kind of fast-forwarding to today All the stats that get recited at conferences, you know Europe has all these universities and engineers all these great Preconditions are here, but now I think the mindset is also one of confidence because it can be done It can be done in times Similar times is now actually when you are starting you can do things with very little if you sort of apply yourself to it with with actually a Landscape that's clearer of competitors, right because I mean let's look at the last five years Most most of the business plans that were put forward got funded and and I've heard you of you many times how How you thought that was unhealthy It's unhealthy and it's for a good company difficult to compete if in your market bad companies or companies which ultimately will not survive get funded because They compete for talent. Maybe they they underpriced the market So it creates an an irrational Environment in which you as a rational operator need to win so it also creates a lot of confusion and in an era where the economical laws are again respected and you need to have a path to profitability Where you need to pay people a sensible salary which can you can sustain for years And you don't just think like I'd say heck for something because I'm gonna exit this in a Short time anyway, and then somebody else can solve the problems It's good that I think it's good for great companies because this is a window in which you can show quality And not the whole vision is blurred because there's so much going on Yeah, but Peter now I put it back on you because you you say or it looks different from the outside but from the outside it it does look like Adrien is the sea of stability and you know you retain the people that you want to retain and you don't oh You don't go over hiring in you know over swinging in in you know in the previous bull market I mean, I mean do share a little bit like on the inside pressures dealing with with all these demands and You know a lot of competitors for your talent But there's a point where you have to realize that you get yelled at sooner or later so when in our market at a certain point it was all the mobile payments on on small devices and We were servicing corporate merchants where it was less relevant. So investors will say you should do something else There is a time that that there were crazy salaries To my view for engineers. I think engineers are huge contributors to what we built We gave them the opportunity to to buy into and many of them came out very very well But I think it's unfair to pay somebody a salary where you know, it's not sustainable So we stayed away from that. So when we had growth plans We couldn't hire the number of people we wanted to but we've hired in the last two years So we were buying the dip also in terms of expanding the company We have some great people joining us in the last 18 months But the timing was much better. So that worked out first. So therefore. Yes, it looks like stability it was also planned because Planned in the sense that so Then apparently we grow a bit slower number of people in those years when everything was was under pressure And that gives us the opportunity now to onboard very talented people So it but it feels very counter-intuitive and some investors are shocked by it that when everybody's laying off people We think like oh, this is the moment to to get some quality people on board great. Yeah, great I mean you definitely are projecting confidence and and I think that's what's that's what's needed because historically there's been the stereotype that Europe is the sort of the The poor cousin and you know a certain investor has compared Europe to a museum and a holiday place And it's just no longer true. We're seeing great companies, and I know you mentor or Here and they come across and spend time with young entrepreneurs. We certainly haven't felt that in the last year There's been a decrease in appetite if anything this gives entrepreneurs the confidence To start global companies from from out of Europe. We had so few So few examples of European companies that kept on going. It's a very small group Like nobody I think in this audience very few people realize that booking used to be a European company But I think it's about 2009 when they sold for a hundred thirty five million to price line Because that's what he used to do and now I see way more examples of entrepreneurs that keep going And I think and I hope that's inspiring others to not sell out too quickly and to really build something impressive But this must be cultural right? I mean Looking at that time distance. We we've covered. I mean those 20 years you mentioned since mid 90s since be bid I mean that is a change of attitude or is there is there anything else that you think is under the hood? Well, I'm European myself, so I understand the view like you don't need unnecessary money And there is is it like a hard rock? Do you always need more or is there is there a point? But then you're missing The pleasure that you get out of building a very large company improving how good you are and what with talented people You can accomplish it's not about the financial accomplishment, and I think that's a confusion That maybe also we ourselves made the first time around although I was against the sale But it's like okay financially very productive at certain point you realize like no, but that's that's not the ultimate goal is to prove how great of a company you can build and Yes, it is inspiring to see all those around you do that when all those CEOs tend to know each other and See others also taking it way way further So I hope that it becomes easier for Europeans to do that we list it in Europe We really prove that there's a European ecosystem that works. Yeah, I mean that's beautifully said I mean myself Obviously as a European I feel similarly we of course we invest in in the US and have a big operation there But you know having had the opportunity to move there I think the diversity of companies and the types of businesses that Get born here probably wouldn't be elsewhere and definitely feel confident about the future and I would for sure Say that today is the time that's going to separate the bold and the tentative There's definitely a number of business plans in in sectors that you may say You may say are crowded or somebody's done it before but I guess you went into a space with you know There were dozens of payment processors, right? And you just see the opportunity that That had presented itself to to pull away from the pack I'm very very positive about the current environment in Europe for entrepreneurs Even though you could say there's less money around I don't think that that I think that's also an opportunity for the good companies There's one trend which I dislike which is Local government so national governments gold plating European rules Because we need the European market like the US has a large domestic market We need Europe to be sort of a large domestic market and if there are different rules in each country and you see that National governments have the tendency to say oh that rule is good, but we're gonna make it even better Which is called gold plating That doesn't help because then it doesn't scale so nice and we should allow ourselves an internal European market So that's the only trend which I think could help if we don't do that But other than that I'm extremely positive about our current state. Yeah, I tell you life is hard enough with You know the difficulty of posting my parents a parcel from the UK to Europe after Brexit, so I echo the Let's not interfere anymore because there's too much interference already. I think we we don't have too much time I think we should look in the future and and sort of You know reflect on if there's if there's anything we could do we would what? from our perspective at index certainly the huge The two huge leaves that have happened has been one the confidence and second Role models and the involvement of those who've already been In either successful startups or have seen startups Actually, they give back to the community I would and and and get involved. I'm curious how you look at that I think it also helped we never used the money that you gave us because we were already profitable So first that was more a word just showing confidence to our merchants that this is a stable company That's what we used it for we never spend it But we also used a little bit for secondaries So because we knew we're gonna run a long time as a private company and we want to give people a little bit back How do you look at secondaries because I think that helped us to go very far? Because people were also financially feeling some of the success. I mean it's a it's a it's a it's a great point You raise I mean in the past back to your example with booking and many others You know selling had some sort of a negative connotation. It was like I'm quitting and actually Where I come back to the change in mindset and the kind of the shifting of gears and more confidence Actually, what it's about is what are the preconditions? What can we do? to actually raise ambition to raise the bar to keep going and in some senses as You've done at Adi and is to allow people to take more risk as they go over time and very carefully thought through and measured secondaries have allowed that in a in a really constructive way and and I guess your Retention has actually proved that that people were able to take risk of the table and stayed for significantly above then we can run it as entrepreneurs rather than a pension plan for our children Yeah, yeah, and after all if you need money you can go to the bank, but it's so it's about building a world-class company And with that I think we've been pushed off the stage so well Cheers to more European successes and congratulations on Congratulations on building Adi and to what it is Thank you