 We have something that's really kind of an interesting piece of content right now. When I first came to Malmö a year or so ago, it might have been, starting to work with the folks here, they said, you know, Hampus Jacobson, Hampus Jacobson as we say in the US, Jacobson is an amazing tech entrepreneur who, and if you look online there's a great YouTube video of why he chose to sell to the company that he did as opposed to Google and Apple and all those kinds of things. They told him he could be creative and Hampus is a brilliant, creative person and now he's able to be an angel investor, but we had a discussion of how do I think about my money and how do I think about the cost of the impact and how do I think as a traditional investor? And so I thought a lot of people are wanting to figure out that same journey. How do I think about this impact investing with impact and yet, how do I think about it compared to how I used to think about investing? So I realized what we wanted to do is have Hampus walk through his evolving decision set with some people who could really guide him well. So Hampus will be up here with two extremely experienced impact investors who will just walk through how Hampus is thinking about investments in this space compared to investments in technology. So Hampus, if you would come up along with Oliver Careus and Nicky Armacost, I think we'll have a really great session here. Thank you. This is off mute, yep. I don't know whether we're going to be guiding you or whether you're going to be guiding us. Or if I'm that creative and brilliant, but let's see what happens. Well, you're definitely creative and brilliant and so is Oliver. But why don't you tell us a little bit about your businesses for the people who don't know? Yeah, so this whole thing started. I started a company in Sweden 2002, which is called TAT. And we did and do user interface design and user interface technology. And when doing that, you very quickly become more or less a strategy consultant for a lot of your customers. So we started thinking a lot about innovation and all of those things. And in that process, we create a lot of new ideas inside the company. And I had to create a model of which ideas we should promote and which ideas we should kill as quickly as possible and a way to do that. And when I started to build that model, I found that the problem in a company of 180 people is you've got a shortage of entrepreneurs that can walk through fire and hell, frankly, which all entrepreneurs have to do. So I figured the only way I can test this model is to go outside the building and try to find other people and test the model on. And when I started doing that, I found ideas that I felt this was a great idea and you really have everything, if you only had like 15k dollars, you would be able to, well, I do have 15k dollars. But I don't want to, and after a while I just figured, yeah, here's the 15k dollars. And I mean, go try this. And then sort of, that's how I sort of stumbled into investing. And that was 2007. And now I've done 15 investments and I've done three, three and a half, depending on how you would count, or I would say impact investments. And it's, I'm good, I know what I'm good at. I'm good at consumer IT and I'm good at understanding people and communication. And that definitely limits me in what companies I can invest in and how I can do due diligence and everything. So a lot of times I'm completely fumbling in darkness. When listening to an amazing idea, an amazing smart idea that we just did, for me, I'm not, A, I'm not a woman. B, will this work? Well, as we discussed earlier with the last mile, can we supply these to the right people? Can they buy it and everything? I can design the homepage. So, Humphels, I mean, this is, when we spoke, this must be Christmas for you because you have all these incredible ideas out there. If you look at your history where you've come from, you've been a really, really successful entrepreneur, right? And as Kevin said, you're wanting to transition to become more like an impact investor. Could you share with us, you know, what does impact for you mean? Because in the past it seems that you've been extremely good at identifying young startups. What do you look for in those? And what drives you to now sort of come here and be inspired by these wonderful business opportunities? So what is impact for you? What kind of impact would you like to achieve for yourself? They say, yes, this is really good. Good question. I think one of the issues there I haven't at all defined impact. I mean, for me, I have like four criteria when I invest in a company. It's like, can I be proud of what they do? And pride there, that can be something very local, of course. It can be very sort of low impact on a global scale or not. And that it could be something that is not impact investment in the good kind. They just impact the world. And it's a great thing, but it might not be societal impact. The second thing is I want to have fun. The people I meet, I want to be able to want to meet them again and again and again. Because otherwise I will never, I can't invest them. And then the third criteria is I want to learn things. Because that's why I'm here on the planet. So investing in things that are things I already know too much about, like mobile phone user interfaces, I don't want to do that. Because I can learn a lot of things there, but I'm not interested in actually learning a lot more in that field. And then the fourth is adding value. Because the people I want to meet, I feel that I don't want to be, I just don't want to write a check and say, okay, hope that you do something good with that. And the problem of these four criteria is some of them are completely, some of them are orthogonal and everything's nice, but some of them are actually opposite. Like adding value and learning. It's like the more I know about a field, the more I can add value. But the more I know about a field, the less I'm going to learn. So those are like my four criteria. And due diligence of these are very soft, of course. Well due diligence, I think we should talk about due diligence at some point because I think it's an interesting point, depending on the stage of the company that you're investing in. But one of the other things you told us earlier was that when you're evaluating a company, you look for three things to see whether you think that model is going to work and have impact. And we actually tested it. We happened to be standing next to the Ruby Cup and we kind of tested it ourselves on the Ruby Cup to see whether it would pass the Hampus test and it, well, I won't give away, whether it did or it didn't, you can give away. But why don't you share that with everyone? So now it sounds like I'm going to tell lists of everything here. So here's another list. I'm sorry, but it's a good point. I think that this is sort of what we did at TAT when evaluating ideas, generally, any ideas. Not impact ideas at all, but ideas. Is it technically feasible? Can you build it? Can you scale it? Will it work? What happens when you have a billion users? In Ruby Cup's case, I mean anything from manufacturing to the last mile of supply chain, sort of just the technical part. And that's been a sign since Archimedes. So I mean, due diligence of that is like, bring in a good engineer and that person will tell you if it works or not, pretty much. The second part being consumer experience. So the consumer, the user of the product, not necessarily the buyer of the product, but the consumer of the product, will that product like it? In Ruby Cup example, I can't test it, which is hard for me because I hate it, because I want to be a user of myself. But do you have a wife? Yes, I do. And do you have a mother, and do you have a sister, and do you have an auntie? For Ruby Cup, my mother's unfortunate too old. And for my wife, she's breastfeeding. But you can ask her whether she... Absolutely, absolutely. I'll have to find other women. Oh, what have we opened here? It's going to be very interesting start dialogue. Are you menstruating? It's like, yes, okay, good. And then the third criteria for me is market fit. And that's like, it's the whole complexity around the supply chain, and really the market, like, is your supplier going to be a competitor? Because in some cases, especially, I mean, I did businesses in building mobile phones. When you build mobile phones, the problem is your customer is a hands up manufacturer, and you have to understand why they sell phones. And today, the market's even worse. Like, Google and Amazon, they're doing a subsidy business. They don't really care about phones at all. They're building platforms. So if you sell to them, you really have to understand how they work. And a lot of companies really don't understand this. They think their customer is their consumer. I mean, their user. And that's, of course, not at all the case. So these, there are the three things, sort of, I do diligence. These are the three things I ask them about. Like, I want to talk to users, or I want to see users having it, or I want to feel the use myself and ask the questions, but what happens when you get a billion users? Or what happens when you have to produce, okay, you're producing five now. What if you would have to produce 50,000? And oh, we haven't really thought about that. Or actually, often even worse, on the other scale, people tell you, we can do this really in a good margin if we produce two million units a month. It's like, how do you do it for 5,000 units? Oh, you can't. That's really exciting to have, to be sitting here with you as a really successful entrepreneur where you already have those kind of three selection criteria to identify new businesses. Now coming back to the impact question, could we just add a fourth question for you? So when you look at deals, actually have that fourth criteria to assess impact? It's a very good, really good. Yeah, it could be, will it change the world in some way, a big way or a small way? What impact will it have? And on a personal level, I mean, do you see yourself as you migrate to the investment space, you yourself, that you want to create that impact? Or would you like to be part of a group of other entrepreneurs who come together to share that deal flow, to really drive to bring the different experiences that you might have together to the fore to help these entrepreneurs grow? I think it's... Sorry, that's a key issue that we see in terms of aggregating the kind of capital at the different stages that these entrepreneurs need to really grow. That's what we're discussing as well, at the early stage and the next stage, and to really ramp that up. So would you be interested to be part of that group, or are you currently on your own, scoping it out, dipping a water, are you toeing a water to get a feel? I think that autonomy is one of the criteria for being happy. One of the things I hate about people creating consortias is that that slows me down. Whenever my name is added to a list, that means I get a responsibility of being part of that group. I think, what am I saying in this forum, because that might hurt the group and stuff like that? I'm a fourth child. If you're a fourth child, you're sort of told, be an individual and care about your brothers, because then you suffer just going to screw up. So I think for me, being an individual is really important for me, but at the same time, a lot of the investments I do, I do with someone else, because they have the field competence. When you invest in a company, I know what I'm good at and I know what I'm not good at, but sometimes you need to, if you co-invest, the other party should be the complimenting party. So for example, I recently did an investment in a company that they didn't have all their business set, everything works, but what they need most is somebody that can tell them to focus. And I can tell them to focus, but the guy who I co-invest in is one of those super McKinsey guys who he's been telling big companies to focus for the 35 years of his life, even though it's just 35, and that feels perfect for me, because he can give business reasons why to focus. I can just give those soft reasons why to focus. So he's a perfect compliment in that case. So if you like to go solo, you're saying, at least for now, and maybe we can get Oliver to change your mind, because I think we should get into what Oliver does, because I think that's also very interesting, because there's also a lot of effort in going in with other people. But I also do go solo, so to speak. And so at what stage do you go in? When do you like to be there? You talked about saying all they need is 15,000, which is very early on. That's after friends and family won't talk to you anymore, but when people like Oliver won't give you any money yet because you don't have a track record, are you comfortable in that space? Or do you evaluate an investment in that kind of a context? I think we talked about that. I think we are in a sort of similar early stage. You have 10 people. I have me and my wife that says no. No, I'm kidding, no, but I myself. So I think that the earlier stage, the better on the criteria is that I can add value and learn. One of my fears of being part of a consortia is that there's going to be a proxy between me and the company. So when I talk to the company, as a company, you don't want investors asking a lot of questions. So you set up the list of KPIs and send out the email. So if you have a proxy, after a while you ask questions, they say, oh, can't you bring up this at the investor meeting every quarter? But the opportunity for me to learn is nil because they're going to get once a quarter. That's too slow of a frequency of feedback for me. So if you can offer that, you should tell what you do Oliver, give us a pitch. So as we heard, we come in when entrepreneurs have a proven model. They come out of the kind of start-up phase. They can demonstrate that they have a good team on the ground. They're creating impact and it's kind of early expansion stage. So we provide 200,000 up to a million. It can be sort of tranched. We do grants, debt and equity depending on the underlying business model. And we do actually try to get really involved with our entrepreneurs. And not just providing and writing sort of dumb checks, if you will, and coming back in December, but really actively engaging with the entrepreneurs working through the strategy, the business model, and how they scale up. And we are very interested to understand sort of the early pipeline. Where do the deals come from? How can we work together there in working with partners on finding the different types of capital that comes in so that we're creating sort of a relay race, if you will, that the entrepreneur can just focus really on executing, creating impact. And the investors really just slot in and help grow the entrepreneur and not be a nuisance, because otherwise that would prevent us from achieving impact. Because I think one, two things you did, which I think were the reason why I would be more interested in working more with you. And one is the thing that you actually have, which sounds ridiculous that it would be something unique, but that you have teams on the ground. You're doing global impact investment and you have people in the countries. It's not as if you're saying, oh, let's have rabbits in Australia. That sounds like a great idea. That's not going to destroy the ecosystem at all. You have people there that sort of that kind of value it and pool ideas. Absolutely. We found that that works really well, because like any venture capitalist, I don't want to find out in December that the CFO fell off a horse in February, because then we can't help. But I would love to find out in March so that we can come together, work with other investors, sit around the table and sort of say, okay, what can we bring both in capital? Can we bring in experts? Can we bring in other network partners what the organization needs right now? And I mean, all the business plans that we've looked at over the last four years, looked around 3,000 deals, some of them just desk space. You can sort them out pretty quickly and others you can go a bit more into depth. All the numbers that you find in there, you know, halve them and then you're getting close to what somehow looks realistic. But it's this interaction and it's as much us learning, right, and working with the entrepreneur. So I think it fundamentally comes down, it's a people's business and it comes down to trust. Absolutely, yeah. So it's the entrepreneur feeling very comfortable saying this is the kind of investor that I want to work with. So we've set up teams in Latin America, Africa, India and Southeast Asia and China who really work on the deals on a day-to-day basis. They speak the language, they have the culture, they understand the context and work with the entrepreneurs on a day-to-day basis. And I think that for me that is a strong compliment there is that you can part of the question they're both market fit and consumer experience you have people that can at least sell from just the cultural aspects of these two. I mean maybe not the mechanics knowing that it's actually going to work, but you can just say it's never going to work in Country XYZ. I mean we did TAT worked a lot in South Korea and doing business in South Korea and doing business in North America are very different. So for me if somebody would tell me we're going to do this in South Korea I would say no, don't. I mean they won't even talk to you about that because they think it's a ridiculous idea. Whereas in North America they're going to love it. I think what you just mentioned the kind of cultural aspect is so critical. I mean a lot of times when we look at deals the actual technology we're looking at technology work but that doesn't mean that the deal will actually be successful. So it's around distribution. It's around the pricing as you said the cultural fit and that is absolutely critical and we're learning on every deal. It's never a straightforward thing but it's very much submerging and talking to networks. So I think this is where Socap is so great that you can bring all the different capital providers around the table, the entrepreneurs together to build this network that we actually are working on more closely. Are you cross polluting your deals? Are you asking entrepreneurs in company A to talk to company B? I do that and I love it because you have somebody solving problem A so why should everybody solve it? We try to do that in sort of the South exchange in our portfolio. Peer coaching. Yeah not explicitly peer coaching but saying look if you have a distribution platform and you're looking for like water filters or lamps or whatever it might be sometimes the entrepreneurs already know each other fairly well. So they do exchange but of course they are so focused on growing their company and creating impact that having them then talk to others really takes them out of their day-to-day business so that needs to be done very well. But I think that you should host like a Christmas party for your whatever Hanukkah party and depending on you have to find out a common non-religion or religions that people can come once a year where you're bringing like the founders or CEOs and founders and CEOs of your companies together just for like two-day like outing because what's going to happen there is somebody to say you're doing that with that? Because we have exactly that problem with this. I think it's certainly something that we want to do I think thank God there are things like Skull where everybody comes together or Socap where in a short amount of time you can bring together of course it's not that structured and I agree like Mulago does that they're flying their entrepreneurs for a camp where they can exchange and bring in experts. I think that intervention is very very good. It's also I must say a financing question of our principle to fly everybody in but I think it's an excellent idea and I think it's something for us as we sit on more on the investor side to think through what added value can we bring to you, to you entrepreneur and to other investors to not just writing a check that's very easy to do to write a check but really adding the value. As I think we talked about I think it's interesting also that we do similar size of investments you do slightly or definitely larger than I do commonly and I think that you have I guess you have a due diligence mechanism I mean you have lawyers and what have you to check out things. Yes we do. I guess we work could you tell a bit about how you do investment? Yeah we were talking earlier on and the size the size that we do is around 50,000 as I said earlier after the entrepreneur has really lost all good will from anyone who cares about the person no one will talk to the person again they still need money the other investors won't invest because they don't have a prototype they don't have a track record they don't have another investor who's gone in with them and the market is too small they don't want to do less than 200,000 or 500,000 or whatever it is and so we give we give that very early stage 50 to 75,000 to help jump start to catalyze that that business and we were our companies called Arc Finance and one of our investors called us Arc Angels and he said you're Arc Angels because you go where angels fear to tread and then someone else said well what do you call that kind of capital is that patient capital and someone else chipped in and said no that's reckless capital because when you have a business that's that small you don't have a track record how do you do due diligence and so the way that we do it it's a sniff test it doesn't sound terribly scientific there aren't a lot of numbers that you can run but it's not entirely irrational what you're doing is you're evaluating an idea it has to be a really good interesting idea and we we have a very narrow space that we're interested in we're interested in financing mechanisms for clean energy water and sanitation so that's pretty narrow and the the concept has to be so it's specialized it's like we were saying earlier it's almost like boutique investing like a boutique hotel and and we we get to know we get to know our investees we have Ajaita here we have Simpa Networks there are a bunch of different players where we we either have had a relationship with them we've watched them over time they've been recommended by someone else or they have a concept that fits into that sweet spot that we're interested in so it's not exactly reckless capital at the end of the day it does have some rationale in there but it's reckless in the sense that a more traditional investor wouldn't want to tread in that space you can understand that you're originally Italian and you're German I mean there's some reckless and some organization elements one of the other things that we were saying is about your passion so what's your passion and the protests on that one he's actually South African so he's very passionate underneath there but you know I think I think that's actually an interesting point and you were talking about your areas of passion for me it's definitely about clean energy about clean water it's about basic human needs it's about social justice issues in terms of those kinds of things that's what I care about that's what makes me excited at the end of the day and if people are able to pay for that then we're going to solve a very big problem which is that 2 billion people don't have access to clean energy that's what gets me excited and makes me feel thrilled about what I do on a daily basis but if I listen to Humphers you seem to have all those wonderful ingredients already you have the knowledge how to evaluate businesses you're really passionate I am very passionate so you want to create impact what keeps you up at night as you transition away from twins I have kids they keep me up at night apart from the twins if you transition now to become more active in the space what is it that you need I think definitely two things one is actually the focus that you talked about one of my problems is that the company I meet the second company is not at all similar to the first which is I don't have an idea what they're talking about I have to spend months of learning usually and I'm not a person who can spend months focusing on anything either I do reckless investing or I don't leading on to that either focus or partners or field knowledge for me one of the things which I like doing is building networks when I talk to somebody picking up the phone and calling someone else talking to these guys evaluate the person evaluate the idea you know somebody who's done something in this field used to be for me but suddenly we need a company that's going to educate pregnant women in China I only know people who sell hardware in China I know how to source silicon in China in large volumes mothers in China I never thought about that I don't have anybody to call so it's basically the next phase is sort of to go through your areas of that you feel passionate about and then sort of finding your way with partners honing in on doing deals how many deals do you want to do and how much would you like to do I mean how much can you do with twins yeah exactly with twins I have actually a grant I have 48 hours per day so I have a couple more hours squeezed in actually no but I think that how many I want to do I don't know I have no clue I think that I do things to learn and investing for me has been to learn and not only in the field but learning how to invest so I think if I one day feel that I'm not learning anything then I'm not going to do it anymore if I feel that I mean either that I become extremely successful I'm never going to happen or B feel that I actually just fail and I don't learn from my failures then I should probably quit too so I think that's probably my philosophy right now dabbling is what I do well and I think it's great that you dabble because we need more dabblers and I want to come back to the point that you raised earlier which is that it gives you the willies if you don't know about the sector so for example the Ruby Cup is a really really interesting concept you know as you say you're not a woman but there are plenty of ways you can evaluate whether that's a good investment which are completely rational and which don't involve having to have experience the use of it yourself I think with Ruby Cup I would say I think that the consumer experience part of Ruby Cup I think I could evaluate that in 24 hours I mean I would say give me one of those cups and I'll call you back in 24 hours which I can do with my normal network because 49% of the plant's population are women and I know at least some of them but the problem is actually the market fit the supply chain and sort of the whole getting the cups from A to B top of logic that's so far away from whatever I've done I hate the idea I hate the idea of having I see products as dairy if you have them for a week they're old and they're useless because that's where I come from I come from a design business so I couldn't bring up an idea in front of a customer or client that was two weeks old because they looked oh this looks kind of like an orange concept yes we did some work for orange we can't have something that looks like orange that's looked like Vodafone yes it does so you need something which is completely new so for me physical products is like conceptually the worst idea ever because you need places and move them between places I'm a digital person I mean seriously that's something where I need somebody to say that's not going to be a problem I mean cups, selling those in Africa, plastics, heat are they going to last? is it going to work? silicon and heat I don't even know the materials so you were interested and excited about that idea there was something that was it was seducing you it was enticing you so what would it take to have you fall all the way over in love with it to overcome your resistance no I think that I'm an engineer originally actually an engineer that sort of spends all my life in design and business and I think that for me I'm good at falling in love with things and I think that I'm in love with this entrepreneur I hear the idea and I feel I want to help this person I love the idea, I really want to help this person but then the German engineer can this actually be done? and I think that is the part that has to be sort of told that it works so how would you mitigate your risks in that context would it be by giving a small amount to see what's done or would it be some other way that you would mitigate your risks? I don't know but when Robert hits the road that's the best part of course and I think that I hate when investors say yeah come back when you feel bubbles like yes of course and I mean anybody can then anybody can invest why would you ever talk to and then you talk to Sequoia on index I mean somebody that actually can help you why would you talk to a mid-sized fund I want to challenge you on that and what we discussed earlier with due diligence I think due diligence always gets bashed it's not a bad thing due diligence you need to understand in order to make the right decision to provide the right kind of funding to provide the kind of value so we always see due diligence more like a consulting process it's like dating no it is you sort of see is it compatible are we going the same way do we have the same mission and then you say yes or no I mean you can also walk away from a deal but at least what we found is that working together for a while and just cohabitate not get married I would definitely say investing I mean I don't know how many entrepreneurs I've told when they've found oh I found an investor an angel of investment want to invest we're doing the deal tomorrow I don't know how many times I've said investment is like dating would you ever marry a person that you met last night like no it's not he's giving me this amount of money yeah but you're gonna have to live with this person for a long time I mean so I would definitely I've said about due diligence being useful I think one of the things I've learned is one of the companies that I invested in I spend now they're raising around and when they're writing their business plan to show this normal investor that needs all KPIs and everything in the excel sheets done what I found out during this process that the company does not actually really know how their business works because when you write that plan you figure out what are you telling me that okay so together we've built this model of course like users come in they do this what's the traction what's the lifetime value and everything and doing that the entrepreneur has said like a thousand times oh why didn't we do this from the start and my honest answer would be oh I should have done my due diligence because then we would have done it and I would have still invested but we would have done this together and we would have one year of a good company structure instead of like shooting a lot of companies like shoot in Swedish of course then shoot moose in the dark like they fire their gun and they eat moose in the evening did they hit the moose or did the moose die of fear they don't know they don't know they eat they eat they're happy it's like no but then you can't systematize it then if you can't hire 100 hunters so I think that is a big problem for a lot of entrepreneurs they are happy in small scale but can you scale it because do you know how the machine works so I would say due diligence is great and that's one of my issues that going into sectors I know sure I can look at the machine and then I can look at the people metaphorically but plastic silicon sorry in warm parts of Africa I just like does this work and of course I mean I could just call an engineer working in plastics and say yeah if it's not like 250 degrees Celsius in Africa that's not going to be an issue it's like oh okay so silicon is not that difficult then but I mean I need those people to tell me that yeah because all entrepreneurs and so just on the question of scale how what what is the formula that you go through as an engineer to evaluate whether it's going to be a company that can scale or not what's the thought process or what's the what's the analysis that you do to come out with a yes this one's you know this one's a full on yes this one's a maybe and this one's a no that's a very good question no I actually I don't know actually I would turn the question around because I think you're very similar in that sense how do you if you meet a company and you can spend thousands of dollars in actually do diligently do you got a good gut feeling and you got them recommended how do you decide if you're going to say invest or let's follow them for another month or two one of the things I look for is is how many cooks are there cooking if the if the business model is so complicated that it depends on seven different different entities all lining up in exactly the right way to me that's a you know that's a big sign that you know we could be looking at conflicts of one kind market fit for me yeah exactly so I'm I'm looking I look for that kind of a thing so I'm looking for I'm looking for the model being simple I don't mean simplistic I mean simple meaning that it's executable in an elegant kind of way and if that seems and if I and I and I look at it you know how sometimes when you're in a dressing room you have mirrors where you can see yourself from every angle which sometimes isn't what you want to do but you can really see yourself from every angle I try and look at the business that way I look at it from this side and this side and this side and this side and if it meets that criteria then I'm willing to give it to give it a try as long as it you know as along with the other things but that's part of my that's part of how I look at that scaling question because I think it's much more likely to scale if there aren't a whole bunch of other people who can impede the possibility of that business growing at the end of the day I also I mean for me the questions that the problem that it's trying to solve is a huge problem it has millions of people affected so I also look at the country context and I map various things on top of one another I'm very interested in energy or water so I will look at you know what is the electrification rate of the country what is the what is the number of people in addition to the electrification rate that don't have access to energy so in a country like Afghanistan it's 6% electrification rate 28 million people who don't have access to energy and then I look at a couple of other things that are kind of proxies for how money flows around so I look at what the remittance rates are what are the cross border money flows do people have disposable income is there money floating around from other places and I look at cell phone penetration so again Afghanistan interesting you have a 56% cell phone penetration so that tells me there's a really interesting market there for an idea and there's the potential for it to scale just given those kinds of market conditions so I do that kind of that kind of it's you know it's again it's a bit there's intuitive stuff going on but it's not entirely irrational and you can reuse of course I mean what I mean is since you have a very narrow focus you know what you need is like cell phone penetration if you moved into doing I mean I don't know a carbon offsetting company or whatever I mean what are the things I'm going to ask for I mean mobile phone penetration probably doesn't matter I mean so I think that is shall we perhaps open yeah for questions any questions from the audience hello hi I'm Bers from Pemwimek in Amsterdam I'm wondering Hampus you have made three and a half impact investments you just said I'm wondering what's different about those three and a half deals you've made and in what sense has the return on investment the financial return on investment played a part in making those decisions so financial return investment for me I think that I it's this this brought back to the be proud criteria for me I think I don't I want investing companies that are economically sustainable and I think being sort of the be proud I think the same thing as you want to be proud of your children to impact the world one way or another they have to figure out themselves how and the second thing is I don't want to be I don't want my children to call me when they need money I'm happy to to sort of help them but I don't want only that dialogue so I think for me return investment criteria for the for me there is they should get in an economically sustainable situation I talked to a lot of companies that have great ideas but when you find out that this is like a donation driven idea you're going to come back in nine months and either you want money for me or someone else or you need your customers to donate and it's never going to work so that is like the economical criteria for me and the first question the first part of question was the difference between the three and a half companies reason I call it three and a half is I one I would say impact but I'm not sure it's the right kind of impact I'm not sure the three companies are Desmo and Better Now which are fairly similar companies there are companies done for developed countries that raises money from people who could actually give that money in Desmo work with retailers and retailers should give some of their money and in that whole chain and what Better Now do is they're a kickstarter for charities so I'm going to run a marathon help me raise a million dollars or that's a lot for me to run a marathon but anyways the half company is a company called Ipid and what Ipid do is that they're they're a food ambassador their mobile application mobile service that help you choose food depending on certain constraints because everybody have constraints and the reason they're a half is because how how good an impact that is and there are fields where it's very impact like allergies and issues but half of it is feels very commercial the way they do they do money is they created a direct dialogue between the food brands and the consumers which is very valuable for both parties actually and the fourth company is Barista which is a coffee shop and a coffee shop that act that part of their business idea is they they cut their own margins and give that money in a lot of different ways but the main way is every time you have a cup of coffee at Barista which is here in Malmö they have food to children in an African village so that they actually can go to school because their parents can send them to school if they can't get food so what Barista have given more than 300 I don't know what 300 and something now thousand school lunches to children to make sure that these can go to school so Barista was actually for me like impact and due diligence the hardest one the two digital platforms yeah I can sort of look at those and look at the technology and discuss what back and they should use Barista I don't know how to run a coffee shop I have no clue everybody in this audience would one day start a coffee shop so everybody run a coffee shop doing it's a sustainability for me I fell in love with the entrepreneur I really like Bjorn as an entrepreneur and I really like him and the team and I just felt this should work this this ought to work so coming back to Bert's question I mean like let's fast forward we meet together here again in three years time we'll ask you what impact did these investments create and what would you looking for what would you say yes this was a success for me I fell in love with the entrepreneur the company grew we did you know we reached thousands of people what do you look for for yourself say yeah this was really a good impact investing I think that right now I haven't reached the criteria I think I'm a bad impact investor and what I mean by an evil one because right now I think the impact I'm looking for is not probably the global impact that impact investors should look for I'm looking for the very local impact in the entrepreneur I've started a business I've helped a lot of entrepreneurs and I know the extreme pain of being an entrepreneur and the reason I got into this is I felt my god these are the people that everybody should be helping I mean everybody should spend 24-7 helping these people because they put themselves in so many awful situation for the rest of the planet not only impact investment impact entrepreneurs any entrepreneurs so I just felt I want to help these people and so how do I evaluate if Barista was a good investment that Björn and Nina Maria the three founders that they call me up in three years and say oh I've met this cool company I'm looking to invest and do you want to co-invest I'm thinking of doing this and that because they've made a lot of money of their investment and they did it in a good way so I think that I'm not that good of an impact investor because the main impact I want to do is the entrepreneur that's how far I've reached now I'm sad I actually think you're selling yourself short because I walked over here this morning and I walked right past one of those Baristas and one of the things that it says is fair trade coffee so there's a part of saving the world that's happening just in the use of the fair trade coffee that you haven't even mentioned and that's part to me that's part of that package that made it attractive to me and I didn't even invest in them the thing I love about Barista if you take that as a case the reason I actually I mean the thing that really made it very clear for me was that the good thing about impact investment companies is that if they're two good cases either they succeed and they impact the world and the investors get a lot of money back or they get copied by some evil other company that copy their impact part their good parts and the company Barista goes bust the thing is as Bjorn said the first time we met if Starbucks would copy Barista's model Ethiopia would be a profit so there's a good part of losing if you just inspire other people that's sufficient so one of the cool things I love about Barista is they started looking at plastic cards why are we having plastic cards I mean loyalty cards no we want to do cards which are made of wood which don't use plastic which are using using corn as whatever it's called laminated with corn cornstarch and da da da da they created it from scratch sourced it and found out and put it online now we've done this and what happens is you have other organizations in Sweden calling up hey how do you do those cards copy them for God's sake you're not even a coffee shop so just please steal our cards so Barista is good cradle to grave should we check to see if there are other questions actually we're running out of time oh no talkative thank you we should talk exactly thank you