 Welcome everybody back to Siegel talks here at the Martinie Siegel Cedar Center at the Graduate Center CUNY in Manhattan in New York City that has been hit so hard and where the life has changed so so dramatically perhaps most dramatically to many, many cities in the US of course where it is but the New York lie for five million people take a subway each day over half a million people go in and out Penn stations and restaurants bars theaters are a part of what makes New York New York the contact they're getting together sharing the variety diversity of communities that 250 languages spoken. Everything has come to an halt Thomas over Andrew said yesterday and and we are all in a state of uncertainty we do not know what will happen when things will reopen I think for another month everything is closed in New York City we look outside of our windows we see the real real reality inside we are with us in our small spaces. Somehow we are very connected to the world it's become closer but our living spaces become closer. We are kind of with ourselves but not really in solitude because in case we do share our apartments we are with someone all the time but we don't have the company we normally have. So it's a confusing time it's a complicated time Thomas over Andrew yesterday linked it also to the time of the Revolution of the 89 Germans went on the streets and fought for the opening. And when he said it was a moment of uncertainty one didn't know what would happen. Perhaps it was a bit more hope in those days for the good things that will come we know here especially in the US. Have fears and will things get worse the catastrophe that is the health care system the way how it's been handled by our administration by a president where many people say what he advises people to do adds to their death. Count we already have it's so so high the epicenter slowly other countries are picking up we hear such terrible news also from Brazil we had last week Brazilian artists and they had over 1000 artists. In 1000 debt people a day and it's only growing so it's complicated we hit news from Palermo which was so encouraging of a city that was able to fight the mafia to survive. That that that that threat and they said the way we fought the mafia we are fighting the virus but theater arts are part of what we do they are integral it's a city of theater the theater of the city. And we heard from from them they're opening actually thinking about opening even though they are still in lockdown South Africa is doing fine but other places are terrible conditions. New York City, of course, reminds of our focus always as the Seedle Center has had quite close collaboration with artists from the US, but also especially from New York City, through our prelude festival for over 15 16 years we get together with artists in the artists who in a curated way present work in progress and Philip has been with us Joe Dana has been with us, and, and they are two of the workers in the vineyard of the landscape of New York City's theater important contributors, whose work goes beyond what they normally do of course they are theater makers theater artists performance makers but they take the idea of organizing community building and activism series as Thomas over and focused on yesterday from Berlin from the Facebook said you know perhaps one of the ways we look at the world now is that we have to become acquainted with the idea that perhaps there's not even an artwork, you know that the work itself that doesn't produce anything you can buy it you can see but the activist work becomes like Tanya Pugera's great work in Cuba, and in the US it becomes something of, of significance Thomas over and they're very interestingly said yesterday is changing his own person who he sings what it's going to do he's working on the Bruno Latour show where he says, how can we make a show about environmental threats, but we have air conditioning on, you know so it says he's basic questions he said perhaps he has never fully asked. These are questions we are asking now why do we go to theater and performance was it what is it good for and what is changing now so and today at your Dana and Philip. I apologize for my long opening monologue but here we go and it's a message now from from New York City and Philip. First of all, thank you for coming to Dana also most of you taking time, Philip what's going on where are you right now. Hi Frank good to hear from you and thank you for that preamble I'm in Brooklyn in Bedford Stuyvesant. And I wanted to offer if it's okay. We're going to be together here for the next 55 minutes or so. And I wanted to just ask if we could all together the, the three of us, and then whoever else might be listening. On the other end of this telecommunication. If we could take two of those minutes, two of those 55 minutes to just sit for a moment in silence, and to recognize that there are more than 350,000 people across the globe who have lost their lives. The people of whom are. I'm sure who are connected to to some of us who are connected to the people who we know and love and certainly to this great field. The field of performance in theater and if you can't imagine someone who you're connected to directly, feel free. I recommend to imagine the life of a mod Arbery or the life of Breonna Taylor we can just, if it's okay with with us. Here. Thank you. So we'll just take the next two minutes and just sit together. You started and you ended and yes, it has begun. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Philip and for all listeners who maybe tuned in. And just now Philip did ask us to have two minutes of silence in meditation memory or thoughts about close to this 400,000 people and who knows how many they really are might be a million. And who are affected died with the virus. So thank you Philip so Philip. How are you doing. You know, I'm, I'm frustrated. I'm, I'm, I'm really, I'm really sad. I'm not sleeping so well. I'm not mentally and and I'm aware that that has something to do both with a great deal of uncertainty, which is ever present in my body as a black person in this country, but then also to worry for our friends and our neighbors and our colleagues. almost a kind of unfathomable reality we're facing right now. And to watch the news and to know that Cyclone has just hit Bangladesh and India, and I have friends in West Bengal and in parts of South Asia who are dealing with something, a tragedy on top of a tragedy. And as you mentioned earlier, the public health crisis in this country has been a longstanding concern, in part because it affects the people who we're seeing most affected by what's happening right now, which is to say low-income people, which is to say people of color, people who have less access to facilities to care. And so this is, you're right. We don't know how many people, the actual number of people who are impacted by this, but we know for certain that it could have been less. And that's really heartbreaking for me to even just imagine. So that's where I'm at right now. Yeah, I'm in a place of exhaustion, the kind of exhaustion I've never experienced in my life, I feel. Once I had a medical trauma and it feels, to that degree, they feel the same. In terms of that was a time where my body was just so physically exhausted because of the trauma it had went through. And I feel the same now, except it's coming from an emotional level. And it feels like everything's off balance and that I'm someone who's trying so hard to level everything out in a time that I don't think we can level things out. And I'm struggling to accept that. So I'm definitely in a place where I'm fighting the impossible, things that aren't pushing. I'm still pushing against those walls. And it's a daily practice to let that go. But it's definitely one I'm steeped in. But then I'm also feeling very grateful for having the privilege to still be in my home, for having the ability to connect with my loved ones, to have job security. So I have so many privileges right now that I am grateful for. That are mixed in and add some guilt that I put on myself, but are mixed into everything that's happening around us in the neighborhood. And then on a like Phillips said, on a global scale, there's these moments that I remember that beyond all this, these tragedies and these injustices are still happening. They didn't press pause or go away through COVID. They're still happening. And they're still the daily reality of so many people. This is just something that's been put on top. And so really trying to sit with that and see, just meditate on that and figure out what I, what comes up when I bring that in. Because I definitely, I'm in a place where I have all these emotions and they're definitely locked here. And they've yet to open. And I have no idea what's gonna happen when they do. So I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop in that emotional sense. Yeah. Yeah, even walking through the streets of Beppers-Iverson, a fine neighborhood where I live, it's typically filled this time of year with great joy and enthusiasm when the sun comes out, you know, music begins blasting on people's carbs, stereos and boom boxes and, you know, kids are out playing and it's quiet. People are wearing their masks. People are properly socially distancing. People are taking care of each other. Check in on my neighbors regularly. But it's a different emotional register in this moment and acknowledging that that's a thing that's going on and that's a contrast to maybe what my body might have expected walking down the streets. Any other, May 21st, is strange. It's a little bit weird. But I also recognize that there is this collective, emotional kind of compression that's happening. And I'm hopeful. And maybe it has something to do with both a desire for better things, for better days. But I am hopeful that whenever we are on the other side of this time that we've spent together, this reflection that so many of us have been doing is really moves us towards something of great impact. So I'm incredibly, incredibly hopeful, but also it's impossible to, sometimes it feels a little bit impossible to just, you know, sometimes even smile. But it's good to see the both of you. You as well. That helps. Yeah, and even when you talk about getting to the other side of this, something I've been thinking a lot about is, which I'm sure we all have, but what does that mean? More so not what's going to happen there. What's, what is going to, what we'll find there, but is there another side? Or does this, you know, if this is as long-term as we are thinking, or even for instance, today I was talking to some artistic directors and one was saying that they weren't even going to ask staff back until they were the vaccine. And so say something like that is a year and a half away, it's not the, then the other side is years away. So I'm trying to start thinking about it in somewhere that there's not a destination, but just what our, what our journey is, because I know every time that I've set a destination, every time that I've gotten emotionally connected to a date that has been given to us, where we will be encouraged to stop quarantine, which, you know, in March, those felt very real. And then April, they felt really real to me. And then May, I stopped, you know, May 15th was supposed to be one. And I accepted May 1st that that is not going to happen. At least I'm speaking from, you know, Brooklyn and New York, but I think I'm starting to try to come to terms with and chew on what does it look like? If I personally don't think of it as one side I'm on, and then the other side. And the other side, it sounds beautiful, but what if it's not like that, if that makes sense? But I think something, Philip, you said about hope, I think that that's the thing that translates from one side to the next, or from no matter if it's that version, or if it's a journey, or if it's like the ocean and all these different waves, because that's what to me it feels like, rather than one side or the next, it's going to be just different waves that some are going to be huge, and some are going to be gentle, and some are going to crash violently, and some are going to be soothing. But something that, something I had said to you when we spoke earlier this week is, a place I was, was I couldn't see, everything was just felt like it was in darkness. That's where I felt like I was a few weeks ago. And now I'm at a point that I can see a tunnel, and I cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel. I haven't reached that point yet, but it's very, for me, like the hope comes in that a few weeks ago there was no tunnel. I couldn't imagine the tunnel, and now I can see it and envision it, and I can get to a place where I'm trying to touch it. And I just, I hope that light will appear at some point. I have great, that makes me, like that makes me feel like some sense of delight. And I receive some of that that you just shared, Jordana, because there is a lot, and Frank mentioned it earlier, you know, there is a lot of trivialization happening around the present moment, at the highest levels of the government. And certainly some industries, you mentioned engaging with other artistic directors and someone expressing that they're not going to invite their staff back until there's a vaccine. That actually also gives me some great hope because someone's making a decision based on their values and based on their principles. And probably that's how they have been making decisions, I would hope or I imagine, for a while. You know, I think of the work that you do at Jack, the work that has been ongoing there for so many years has been incredibly liberative, but also an expression of the values of the people who are a part of the community of makers that work at Jack. And that gives me, actually, that also gives me great hope. It gives me a little bit of pride too, like Brooklyn pride, or I don't know, something like black pride, you know, plus plus. Definitely. You know, but it's like, this is the reality we are living in is whatever comes on the other side of the tunnel is going to be shaped by how we determine our pathway through it. And not by, hopefully not by market forces, hopefully not by the ways in which we did things previously. We hear, you know, the American president saying yesterday we need to get back to normalization. And you're like, normalization for me is, you know, threats of endangerment, you know, and fear. And in some scenarios, a sense of scarcity, and I'm not moving in that direction. You know, I refuse to return to the way things were to the status quo. So I'm encouraged by both what you've just shared with us and also by the work that you do. And so thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, Jack is the great arts with center in Brooklyn, Alec Duffy against all odds, was able to create a space that, you know, makes New York, New York, and it has been part of it as well as in the Armory, which is interesting normally that one doesn't really travel between such organizations. But do you guys feel your community is hit harder by COVID or do you feel New York artists, performance theater artists share, they sit in the same boat? That's tricky. Philip jump in at any time, but I feel, I truly feel that I often, to be honest, live in a vacuum. And that's something that I, as my life goes on month to month, year to year, I try to break out of. But I do feel like I am most connected with theater artists of all different types from curators, producers, directors, actors, designers and those are the voices that I'm mainly hearing on a daily basis. So I'm hearing their struggles. I'm hearing their losses that they're fighting, they're battling forward. And so I feel like I don't have much, many other groups of people that I'm connected with who are in different places. I feel like I have that perspective and I'm in that. And then that of being a Black queer woman. There's that space and there's that I hold in me and through me and is me. And so to see what's happening within the Black and Brown and queer community on a larger scale, which just feels like a, just a constant injustice that we are once again being faced with and is being brought to the face of the news and put in everyone's ear, yet there is no change. That's not new for us. It's not new for us to have terrible things happen and not see a change or response. And so that's all just to say that I feel like I'm in this one nook of just the arts and then this larger nook of my overall completely lived identity and that's who I'm hearing from. And in that world, I do feel like my identity of a queer woman as a Black woman, that I feel like is being struck harder than our community. Yeah, I mean, I'm with you. You know, to just jump off of what Jordana has shared you know, it does feel a lot like vertigo in some ways. And it's important I think also to for whoever is out there listening that here in New York City which is as Frank mentioned, the epicenter of the epidemic in the United States, there have been I think something around 15,000 people who have perished and recent reports coming out from the health department are bleak and particularly as it relates to the various communities that Jordana mentioned which are our intersectional communities reports from the CDC and from the health department are saying that Black people are twice or three times as likely to become infected or to die from COVID-19. Latinx community members are two times as likely. The hardest hit neighborhoods here in the city of New York are low-income neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens and the Bronx, Northeast Bronx, South Bronx, East New York, Coney Island, parts of far Rockaway flushing. And in high-density areas particularly low-income housing we see the highest rate of infection and death and so indeed communities of color are continue to be, have been and continue to be the most affected by this virus and there is, and that's the terrible news. The joyful news is that when I walk out on the streets all my neighbors are wearing their masks. When I walk out on the streets there's a lot of proper socially distancing that's going on. People are taking care of each other. There have been a number of people of each other. There have been a number of artists created, artists driven, artists led, mutual aid funds, GoFundMe accounts created to support these affected communities by people who are members of these communities themselves. So I see artists, I see black and brown people, I see low-income people, I see queer people who are not waiting for someone else to offer them a solution. They are crowdfunding, they are resource gathering and becoming many tiny foundations. If foundations of one individual grant makers collective giving circles, community giving circles and that is incredible. Now this is something that has been going on for a while. It doesn't make the mainstream news. It doesn't get talked about in the New York Times but it is very local. It is community-based and it impacts the people who it intends to impact. The civic organizations like Jack that are doing food delivery service, the black churches here in Brooklyn have opened up their doors to provide free masks and free testing in collaboration with Northwell Health which is a non-profit healthcare organization in the city. So though these communities are the hardest impacted there are collectives of individuals that are coming together and providing services that are essential and that are needed. And it's kind of a joy for me to also know that there are a few theaters that have opened up their doors to really provide much needed services and provisions to their local neighbors. This is something that I hope, this is something that has been going on for a while and I think it will and now it should take center stage and I'm sure it will be a part of the work that continues at small independent theaters. And I hope that this is just more evidence as to why we need to support the independent, small to mid-sized arts organizations in this city that do so much of the emotional labor, the physical labor around holding up communities that can't afford $80 tickets to see plays that maybe can't leave their homes to participate in the types of privilege culture that we are a part of. And so I'm just saying all this to say that I'm watching. The world is watching and the community is the community of makers is watching and I really want to encourage anyone who has a dollar, anyone who has any interest in sort of what's happening locally to find out and to go to Jack's website and see what they're doing. Also too, I've created a little resource guide with the help of a friend of mine, Aditya Patana that is a collection of resources specifically geared towards people of color, immigrant, new American folks, COVID-19 resources that you can access, you can apply to. We'll put it on the HowlRound website, we'll put it in Siegel Center website. We'll also hopefully get it up on Jack's website and we'll send it out to some of our advocacy organizations in the field so that people can get some of those direct services that are intended for them specifically but then also if individuals want to donate specifically to those funds that are being directly funneled to many who identify as being a part of the affected communities here in the United States, you'll have, there's an opportunity for you to do that as well to either apply as an individual who needs a grant who's a grant seeker or to apply as a donor who would like to make a donation and every little bit helps y'all, every little bit helps. No, thank you, that's great. I'm just to touch on when you were talking about how these efforts were happening, like it completely in the, some of them grew but started in the communities. Just wanna bring up, so at Jack, we partnered with We Keep Us Safe Abolitionist Network. Please check them out on Facebook, like their page, keep following them, they're incredible. And the effort is run and organized flawlessly by Samantha Johnson. And Samantha actually, Samantha is based out of Jack now and it's over 120 families very locally, like in the very like walking facilities are given different foods for those families in need. Whether it's those are elders in the community that just cannot make it to the grocery store it's just too much of a risk from families that have just really large families and they need to stay home with the kids. And it's not going to the grocery store is just not something that can happen. And so, but this all started when Samantha started doing it in her building when she started realizing someone, one of her neighbors on the fourth floor needed some groceries and didn't feel comfortable enough to get out there or didn't feel like they were healthy enough to take the risk. And then Samantha personally started working with a neighbor on the fourth floor to take care of them. The fifth floor, the first floor and from there it grew to a point of now having a hub at Jack that has cars and volunteers that are rotating in their multiple times a week. But something I just think is so beautiful about we keep a safe abolitionist network is that this effort, which they have no intention of stopping next month, a month after things like that eventually at Jack we plan on figuring out how to have that happening with shows. Like how is that going out? How is that going during the day and then productions at night? But just it's so inspiring to me that for Samantha just started with her neighbor, the floor below. And then it's now over 300 families. I think it is really representing a New York spirit. And on the other hand, one cannot help but think it's the richest country in the world. It has been completely unable to provide testing. Even months later, production of masks didn't really work. Tests that's not available, the ones promoted seem to be failing. And now churches and small theaters have to take over what traditionally is done by the government that is there to protect people. Trump has been called also on this show, a mass murderer, someone who says inject disinfectant in your blood. He doesn't wear a mask. You're ridiculed in the very beginning, the threat of it. Is there in the community you talk about, you know, is anger rising? Or do you say it has always been like this? It will never change. It's just another storm. That's a really good question. Yeah, I think that's great. You know, I think it's important to say, I mean, like there's sort of, for me at least, I exist across multiple communities and not only one. And it's certainly, there's no monolithic emotion or experience of history or this historical moment. In terms of rage, you know, I'm always fond of, you know, James Baldwin, who's, you know, who reminds us that, or who has, you know, who has said very beautifully that, you know, to be a black person in this country is to be filled with rage. And that is a fact and a poetry. And, but I'm also reminded of, you know, this week is the birthday of Lorraine Hansberry. You know, our great, one of our great playwrights and in one of her plays, a character says to another character, why don't you sit down and take a moment to reflect? And so I kind of want to have my full humanity in that I can be completely filled with rage and also stay quiet and use my tools of reflection as a tool of resistance. To answer your question, though, about this spirit of frustration that, you know, teams from injustice and lack of access to a variety of different resources, you know, healthcare, education, housing, fair housing, you know, many artists right now, our friends, our colleagues, our neighbors who are performers, who are directors, who are designers are taking part in a rent strike, right? So that both of, for many of them who work, who are kind of doubly hit by this pandemic, they don't have access to doing what they're gift, sharing their gifts with us through their art. And then some of them who work in the service industry or in the hospitality industry can't have those jobs either. So where is relief going to come from? Economic relief going to come from? So yeah, people are very upset because this is a reality that is past and present. And we do, it is an election year, and I hope people will use their vote in this country to really great effect and not just rhetorical effect, but true action. And, you know, the American president has never shown any empathy for my community. And so I have no other thing to say. I don't look to this person for guidance. I don't look to this person for the answers. I look to Lorraine Hansberry. I look to James Baldwin. I look to Jordana De La Cruz, you know. I look to Lynn Nottage. I look to Susan Moyer Parks, you know. I look to the people who have been in this field, at least on the front lines of empathy, on the front lines of humanity, offering stories and an opportunity for collective community that allows me to both be filled with rage and reflect. So it's that I believe, at least it has been my experience, is a powder kick. That's combustible energy right there when you have the full spectrum of your humanity, the full spectrum of your emotional availability present. And so yeah, and I believe, again, that this will be an opportunity, not only because it's an election year, and not only because the actions that people are taking really speak for themselves and everyone's watching what everyone else is doing. I think that this is a real great opportunity to activate all of that energy around new ideas, around new kinds of institutions, around new forms. To hear Jordana talk about the building, the institution, well, we're gonna do this during the day, and we're gonna show plays at night, to know that that's an action that's going to proceed gives me such great energy. Similarly, a theater, the Bushwick Star, which is a place where I've worked, a phenomenal space that really, they only have six slots a year where they show plays, and inevitably the work is, the work highlights black, brown, queer, Asian, Latinx folks, emerging artists, as well as established artists, they use their space for lots of different kinds of things, educational activities during, and this is a tiny space. And that's what they've been doing and they don't do it as a rental, they do it as programming. So that's, I see, this gives me great hope. It gives me goosebumps to know that there are institutions who have been doing this work and intend to continue to do it. And I'm excited to participate, but also as someone who's interested in exactly this type of advocacy to celebrate it. Yeah, the sense of, I feel like I haven't heard that word in a while to celebrate. I just had a birthday during COVID. Oh, happy birthday. It actually was really, really lovely, which was not expected, but my family and dear friends, they really brought it. So thank you all. But I, this sense of celebration and I think for me, that also connects to experimentation and you were talking about how we're going to make now and continue making and continue what we've made before. A question everyone's asking is like, what's it gonna look like in X amount of months or such? And you know, I think we talked a little bit about, that's not the question we're as interested in as what have you been doing always done that is going to continue and just how is it going to continue? So rather than what's gonna be the new thing, it's more like you're focused on collective liberation freedom. How will that now find a new, find new ways to experiment and come out in different forms in different places through different mediums. And I just think, you know, I don't know, just celebration isn't something I've thought about in a while and just like hearing you say it, like you're someone I celebrate and want to celebrate and it makes me just think of the people who have inspired me and continue to inspire me today, whether or not I was able to go to their show that was supposed to happen three weeks ago. They're just as important to my work and my life as when I don't get to see them or don't get to bring in their work because it's, you know, I really believe in not making work for the community but making work with the community and we're all gonna still do that together. That's who we are and that's how we're made and you know, even I'm inspired by so many things people are doing, for instance, like Target Margin, they had costume designers just design masks and then on bikes, they, the team all rode out and delivered them and it was exciting to me to hear, oh, like that's a way to activate and work with costume designers. Like we, there's all these ways we can find work together and there's also, I feel like we're doing a really beautiful job in giving each other permission to not do those things as well, to not feel like you need to be making masks or on a bike or delivering food. I feel like we've been really gentle with each other. I know personally I feel like I've been extremely gentle with the people I love and the community around me. I can't say I've done that for myself to be frank but I think it's baby steps and I don't, this is I think a much longer road than I at least initially imagined. So just like making our way there. I was telling them, when I was talking to some people this morning, I was telling them the day before the COVID first quarantine in March, it was March 11th or something of that. I had had an appointment and I actually, I didn't even know if you'll see it, but wait for it. There, nope, here we go, here we go. Nope, she can't do it. Anyway, I got a tattoo, I'm bad at angles. That says tender on my arm and it's a reminder for me to be tender with myself, to be kinder to myself. I think that's something I have struggled with in my life and just continue to struggle with. And I was telling someone this morning that for me it feels like it could just say moose, because it's, it's not, I'm not being able to take it in for myself, but that's I think part of the journey. And I hope that standing still during some of this time, I'll be able to take that tattoo in because there's a reason I got it in a place that it's hard to show you because it's very much just directed for my eye line. And I just, I, I just want everyone to take care of themselves and to find those rituals of self-care, like you've mentioned. And I'm inspired when you all do it. And I think I'll be, I'll be able to do it more, the more you all do it and share. So I appreciate you for doing those. Yeah. Yeah. So in a way this time is an invisible tattoo, whether we see it or not, that it's going to be left on our bodies and our minds. And let's talk about theater and art, making art, making theater. Do we have to do things differently? Or do we have to do what you guys would do better and continue with the reinforcement? Does something has to change radically? I think it, I don't know if it has to, I think it just naturally is going to. It will change. What will change? I mean, I'd like to, I'd like to think what will change is our, how we value intimacy and how we value holding space with one another. I know that, that I value that so much more than I did even two months ago. And I don't, that's something I hope we don't lose. That's something I hope that doesn't just go away after a few months, but that really, I don't know. It's, I can't remember the last time I worked on something with a fourth wall. And it's because when everyone's in the room, I feel like everyone needs to be in the room. We need to be all connected and we need to be there. And I personally am not interested in creating any work where that's not the case. And a big part of that is how intimate and vulnerable you are as an audience member and on someone at stage when, when you are forced to like be placed in a place to connect. So if you choose not to get connect, fine, but you haven't been given that fourth wall, you haven't been given that distance. And I'd like to, I would love to see things go further that way and go even more extreme that way. Even especially if it's smaller groups for quite some time. Like I love the idea of having a show with smaller groups. Mayfield Brooks did a show at Jack where a portion of it took place. They created their, their installation in the dressing room. And they had a lot of work. And they were only about six people at a time could go through the dressing room area. And they spent almost 10 minutes there before they came out to the larger open Jack space. And that 10 minutes in that dressing room, which was turned into a beautiful installation by Mayfield was so moving and so powerful. And it makes me think, well, what if that becomes like. The type of work that we're all doing. That's a very good question. It's a very important comment. Yeah. I think that intimacy is. A beautiful way of thinking about the theater at all, but certainly an opportunity for the future. I had the pleasure to. Have a play made at the Brick Arts Media. Last April, which was called self portraits. And in part, it was a collection of. 25 different. Weird. Performance works. Some of which were based in ritual, some of which are based in text. Some devised with the performers. And it, and this was work I first actually started building Frank at prelude. And I built in very small parts because it was very much about intimacy. We built in small parts and then we put the whole thing together. In April of last year and we, it was a. It was, I was the, it came from a question, which is what is a play. It's a play that. That where the audience, number of audience mimics the number of performers. And so we had 22 performers. And I wanted to do the play for 22. So that it was a, a one to one. I love that relationship, but we couldn't quite do it for 22. We settled ultimately on like 46 or something like that. Which still felt very intimate. I mean, it was a very personal, a very personal, a very personal collage of bodies in space. And it really demanded. Attention. On the part of the spectator because we wanted to share something and show something. But it, it, this notion of intimacy is antithetical. of what you just described to larger institutional ways of making work. So what I'm hopeful for is that we break the mold, frankly, and that the mold becomes form-fitted to the artists who are making the work. And by that, I don't just mean the generative artists. I don't only mean the playwrights or, you know, the people who make physical things. I mean to everyone. Community is crucial to the work that I make, but it really begins not with a text or a phrase or an image. It really begins with the people who you invite into the room. So that's the first community. And you get your shit together and then you share that with an audience. Right? The community extends. I love what you said about the fourth wall. If there's no such thing, there never was. There never was. And so to be able to acknowledge that that has been happening and that we want more of that, I'm with you. I'm totally with you. But I also just also to answer your question too is like, or to respond, Frank, to what you were asking. You know, for me it's not so much about, I don't know if it will begin from like a statement on my part or on Drodana's part or on, you know, the part of any of these, our friends and colleagues who are part of these talks or part of any institution, it's really going to come from, I believe, questioning, right? And an inquiry and asking ourselves lots of things. Maybe we haven't been asking ourselves before. So to Drodana's point about the, you know, the space at Jack as actually being a community space, right? What is the building? And why is it what it is? How are we taking care of each other in ways beyond the ways in which we've done it previously? Right. Who needs to be heard from? That hasn't been, right? Some of these things begin sadly that when we start thinking about the future, they sort of begin from a place of scarcity, right? And what is perhaps lacking in some of the work we're doing and some of the programming. And it also sometimes comes from the work of activists, artists, advocates who feel left out, who feel like they're continually on the margins, you know, railing at the gates of the ruling class, asking for some resource. So I hope that people start asking themselves questions about what will come next. But really, based on the notion of abundance and that there's a, there's a great deal of loss that we're experiencing. But I believe that there is the spirit of abundance in much of the work that I make in much of the work that Drodana makes in much of the actions we see people taking, as she mentions, target margin, you know, I know several actors and designers who are making masks, who are doing food delivery. And so there is some effort taking place. And so yeah, so I do believe that if we ask ourselves the right kinds of questions and begin from that place as opposed to necessarily always having to feel you have the answer or you have to make a statement. Or as Drodana says so beautifully, you have to be doing something. Let's make sure we move with intention and with focus in the right directions. Yeah, certainly. I think, as you say, we have to really ask, why do we do that? What is it where we are doing it in? And for whom? New York City's theater is in a way so dominated by commercial theater, a multi-billion-dollar industry. I might not be fully aware of it, but I do not see a strong outreach beyond the community itself. Of course, so many artists there, great, great, great artists out of work and that provides a lot of job. But it doesn't feel that it's engaged in a community in the way a Jack does, a Bushwick star does, what you talk about to represent the communities. Also, we should hear the languages. We hear on the streets. We should hear them on the stages. We should see them. It's not reflected what we see on stage. We do so many international artists at the Segal Center. Nobody ever, these great writers most have ever had a chance to have their work presented in New York. It's a very, very, very rare occasion. The Gorky Theater and Bolin, a great theater that said, let's not just talk about immigrants, refugees, first and second generation. Let's give them this theater. Let's hand them over. They do it in, actually, not to write a play about them. They came to the conclusion that every play they do is subtitled. So in America, I mean, every thing you see anywhere in New York City would have Spanish subtitles or other, you know, as a given, because why would you think you have to understand it all? There are, you know, so many things that should change. As you said earlier, families who cannot afford whatever family from Queens or the Bronx says, we have two or three kids. Let's go to see a show on Broadway. It could cost them six or $800 if they want to go out and eat something for one evening. It's not possible. There should be access to the arts, healthcare and education as a human, basic human rights. It's shocking to hear that churches give out tests in America. It's shocking, I think, and it's great that they do it and we need it and it should be helped. But something systemically is wrong and it has to be addressed. From your experience in the communities, because perhaps all theaters will look at also, what do these small spaces in New York do? Like Jack or Bushback, they found something that perhaps worked and it does. What did you guys found that really works, that had an impact? It made a difference. It created a new form. What, from your experience and what do you feel is something, you know, for our listeners, maybe in all the countries around the world, but also in the U.S., where you feel what we do, this is something to think about. I think take the lead from the artists you bring in. We focus on bringing in artists rather than specific productions. Yes, we're having these conversations of what are you working on or there might be something that they've sent us that we've read or we've seen a piece of, but it's really the artists that we bring into the room and that's who we are, that's who we're connected to, that's who we're committed to. And I'd say if you take the lead from the artists, what are your artists saying? What is the pattern you're hearing? And that's the road to go down. And I think, you know, Alec Duffy is and was brilliant in that after a few years at Jackie started seeing a shift where all the artists were, all their work was including activism. It was about being Latinx artists, Black artists, queer artists. And then from that season started to become curated towards what those people were saying from their own experiences, rather than bringing in what we were interested in and then having the artist mold and fit themselves in that. I would just love to see more of what the artists want to say and do, because I feel like a lot of times artists come to Jack because someone else said no. And we are saying yes. And I would love to for more people to say yes. Yes. I'm saying yes all day. I'm amenning that, you know, to, to, to the there is nothing for me, artists are not people who should be put into a box. Other than a black box. And, and given the space for reverie and for recreation and for sharing the sharing of ideas, even if those ideas make us a little uncomfortable or makes certain people uncomfortable. Let's talk about that. Let's, let's, let's look at that. And let's ask those questions. There are incredible models of collective leadership happening right now at places like Jack, at places like Soho rep at places like the defunct PS one to two now performing space New York. So there are people who in the theater space who are moving towards what does it mean to have artists run spaces collective leadership and really focus on some of the things that Jordan mentioned, which are kind of crucial, which is what do the artists want to say or what questions are they asking and how can we help them ask those questions the way in which they want them to be heard. This is crucial. This is almost for me at least. There's no other pathway forward. If we want to achieve this kind of liberation that you described your daughter, I also want to just say to Frank, to your point, you know, I'm actually delighted that black churches are doing testing because it shows me who's doing what. And, and, and that's a historical fact is that black churches in, in this country have been centers for civic activity for community organizing for care when the government historically refused us opportunity and access to resources. So I actually don't I don't look towards political leadership exclusively to respond to to the needs of my body and of my community, my community, because as we see now and as we have seen for decades, the political establishment in this country is hostile to artists and disinterested in discomfort and being questioned. And, and we see it in not only in the highest levels of all three branches of the government, state, local and federal, we see it in the shadow government, which is the ruling class, which is, you know, individuals of affluence who perhaps prefer some conservative art or prefer some friendly art, you know, I desire for more art of feeling. I desire for more unfriendly art. I desire for art that takes us out of the places we know and puts us in another planet, another universe. And, and I desire that particularly from the voices of artists of color, because we are often given the rulebook of how to do certain things in certain spaces. And, you know, I just burned the rulebook. That's just what I do is I just I'm like, oh, I just won't go into that room. I won't go into that building. If I get if I need to follow a certain etiquette or become somebody else who I'm not. So, so, yeah, so, so, and if that doesn't happen, a conditional proposition, if that doesn't happen, then I will just I will do what I've been doing. We will do what we will what we have been doing, which is collect among each other, which is work and challenge each other, and advocate for the spaces and the resources to do that in greater numbers. And because we have the facility, and we have the capacity, we have the energy. And, and this is the moment for for change. So, so, so, yeah, so, yeah, it is, it is a moment for for change. One of the playwrights we had here, I think it was Natalia from Ukraine, who said we always thought one day I'll do this, I read this, I think about that the moment in a way is now to think it through and perhaps change ourselves as Thomas Oba and I said yesterday he feels he changes the person and as an effect his work will change. Who do you admire as artists or curators? Who do you feel are on the right path from your context where you're in? And what books are you reading? What are your what's inspiring you guys? Well, I can start with a book. I'm always when I hear what artists I admire I immediately I'm like, it's for me it's the question of just like what music do you listen to? Because I'm like so many and so many different ways. Just right now in the moment we all have different of course, yeah, but something what you feel might make more meaning at the moment, yeah. You know, Stephanie Abar is always an artist that inspires me and she was someone who was on the on the call I was on this morning and I mean I can't even I don't even have specific examples to give but just I think just her how transparent she is how transparent she is if she were to be talking to us right now how transparent she is during an an interview when expressing herself on social media when talking to an audience it's something that I I just strive to be as frank honest and transparent as she is and I just feel like it during a time like now where it's really it's easy to really really pull back or hold what you want to say and I find and that's not something she does and that's something I really admire. I admire Philip for contacting me to have this conversation. I've been contacted to have a lot of conversations about how Jack is handling this crisis versus crisis of the past and you know that comes up with Sandy that comes up from back to 9-11 and all these things that I was not present for nor was I even actively working in New York for so it's I only have so much I can I can share from that but I feel like Philip asked me to come and talk from a personal place with you and that to me I have so much admiration for people who actually want to know where each of us are whether it's a a pretty place or not whether it's like Philip when we first talked was like how are you doing and I'm just like you know pretty depressed but some like the other day was pretty great I smiled a lot and I I just really admire anyone who has their arms open and no judgment right now for that and for books Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Marie Brown it's a book I've had for a while but it's one of those that I can keep coming back to and I just feel like every few pages I've highlighted a quote that speaks to me and if I even just scroll through for quotes it just brings something new for for me in my day thank you I I doubly endorse Adrienne Marie Brown and Emergent Strategy and also she has a fantastic book called Pleasure Activism which I think came out last year and if you have any doubt about whether or not there's joy in the revolution read Pleasure Activism and you'll your doubts will all be suppressed it's a beautiful book and a beautiful book I think to read right now about Black, Brown, Queer Indigenous artists Asian artists who are work who are working in the arts around revolutionary ideas and and performance some other things I mean I'm reading I love what you say Jordana is like you know sort of like what are you listening to you know I think I am listening to sounds that aren't immediate to me so it's nice to listen to sounds of the ocean it's not even though I know it's a coastal town we're in you know we don't think of New York as that but I like to listen to I like to listen to other ways people are organizing so there's a great little Instagram live thing called verses which I've put just I've listened to a little bit even though I'm not on Instagram I look on someone else's phone and that's nice so people how other people are sharing I think that you know I'm reading what I'm also just personally reading a lot right now is poetry poetry is really powerful and it's a time right now especially in thinking about reflection thinking about the ways in which we're disconnected or fragmented I think poetry is beautiful and so what poets do you read so I'm reading June Jordan the great June Jordan who is a former former resident of Bedford Syverson and also Bay Area professor who passed away of cancer in the I believe it was 2007 she always gives me strength a great people's poetry right people's poetry a great book of hers called some of us did not die which is a collection of essays and poems reminding me that I'm alive and the poetry of Tracy K Smith our great black woman a poet lord of this country who is just a phenomenal writer Jericho Brown's beautiful book the tradition the work of Mamu Darwish the great Palestinian poet and then a lot of poetry about nature which is reminding me to that I'm a part of the natural world and and that and that and that I shouldn't that I need to remember to breathe and to be inside my body because my body is is also a poem so so yeah so I recommend Sarah rule just put out a beautiful book of poetry called 44 poems for you um there's a lot of great poetry in the world right now that I think can that can sustain us through these times Neruda has an incredible book of bilingual poetry called extrava extravagaria which is wonderful octavio pause there's just so much you know it's sort of the time where we also in a way perhaps listen more careful that reaches us we were vulnerable you know as as Joe Dana said we're coming we closer to an end I know Philippe also teach at a TDM in Harvard is one of the experiments also David Levine is there you know whether really a trying a new approach an experimental approach and way perhaps from a bit more commercial um um education of mangas or which perhaps closer than the ART world and closer perhaps what colored stars or the directors program at Carnegie Mellon so you are involved also in shaping a generation in Jordana to your work too what do you tell um artists who are starting out uh and do they call you now up in these times of current if so they would what do you what do you tell them what is significant to focus about what is meaningful and what is lasting you know I may I drew down yeah thank you you know I don't really tell them a lot Frank I actually ask them um what are they interested in and what keeps what do they care about what keeps them up at night you know um what what kind of world do they want to see um and how are they going to get there so that's what I uh that's sort of what I teach um and then we shape that into some kind of form that can be shared with an audience um whether that's an audience of one or an audience of 1000 whether that's an audience on social media or that's an audience in person um whether that's through the sense of the ear and its auditory or it's through the sense of of of the eyes and its visual or through the nose and it's something fragrant um so that's what I I do is I as is um I ask a lot of questions and encourage them to ask questions and to formulate the answer that that that is indigenous and native to their own experience and their own body in space um I do I do a lot less um telling and test testifying um in part because this is just my own practice is challenging myself through inquiry and trying to find um a way forward that um that maybe I can't that is a little opaque right now you know um so that's sort of you know but it's a great privilege to be able to engage um people interested in the arts and interested in in the interdisciplinary very specifically the intersectional um that's a great privilege and I take it very seriously um and I see it as an honor frankly um to be able to center um the voices of um the people who um who I share with the many of whom are the folks I just mentioned um poets uh writers artists of color um uh and and and and and the institutions such as jack uh where their work uh will likely be seen you know uh and celebrated and uplifted um and made affordable um so so so that's much of what I do um and yeah I hope to keep doing it but yeah and I just like to add um just a a small note that I feel like I'm more having conversations about dreaming uh in terms of if you don't feel like you can do anything now which I completely like if you feel like that then I support you I breathe with you on that but what do you want to dream about like you said Philip what um what do they like want to do or what what what is important to them at night what do they think about and I think it's a great time to be dreaming and there's almost this to me there's the the looming part of okay you've been dreaming but what are you going to do with it that that's not there right now because for the most part you can't do anything with it right now and so I feel like there's almost like more freedom to like explore and express because it doesn't feel like once you put a dream out there someone's gonna ask you what the product of it is and so I just I think it's a really great time to dream that's what I've been doing and encouraging any students who have reached out to me to do um that being said I know it's really hard I know when I graduated I immediately I had already been working in a theater and I just went from there and kind of never stopped and so it's it is hard for me to have a you know students be like okay I just graduated I thought I'd have a job I was offered a job all these things are like now no longer happening what do I do uh and it's a hard it's a hard it's a hard answer for me to give them but I just feel like if I couldn't do anything right now at that point I would just really really lean on dreaming and journaling and seeing what comes from that uh and just to rewind because I realized how could this not come up so this is the utterances and it's by Carlos Serra and it is incredible and everyone should get a copy it just came out and Carlos Serra is an amazing playwright poet writer activist throughout the south and in New York and in LA uh screenwriter and truly one of the most incredible people I have ever met and am honored to be in his life and so really the utterances you will you will thank me Jordana you have just given me my whole life I am like gonna weep Carlos is a genius he is brilliant artist and a wonderful person and the American theater is sleeping on him yes wait the American theater is sleeping on Carlos do his work right now folks um to your point about um college or about people who want to engage in this field right now which by the way you know this is a I consider this a form of engagement um and community organizing uh it's going to be crucial it's going to be more more crucial than it already has been for us to make space that is safe and that is flexible for people who are interested in participating in this community in in in the theater and in performance if walls continue to be erected fake walls as you said Jordana fourth walls if walls continue to be erected um that keep uh ideas a strange ideas weird ideas um um naivete um curiosity um formal invention um empathy uh reverie uh a sense of play and a sense of foolishness um and fun uh if if walls continue to be erected against some of those feelings uh and some of those uh some of those uh uh works of art we will um we will not be going uh in the direction uh that we could be um so I I I can't I can't stress it enough um how can we open the gates in this moment uh and really let uh let the artists kind of you know run them up um and and and and and and that is certainly um uh an opportunity that any of these institutions any of these buildings any of uh these uh uh any of uh people who have individuals who have space or institutions that have space uh can do how can we rub up against uh the people right next door to us um in in more meaningful um ways um so I'm I'm I'm here for it you know it's it's quite so open open up the rooms the buildings listen carefully reading poetry dreaming and and to take action and to be part of a community to engage and this is of significance and I really would like to thank both of you for for staying we went a bit over time a little bit much over time but I felt this was a really important talk and this is a place where we really do listen as you say you listen to the artists who come to your space at jack or you fill up to the others who come to you so we all have to do that and and and find what is inside a young famously said about dreaming everything we normally see in the world has already happened people someone designed the buildings the street everything even if you look at something it takes a while for the mind to process in your dreams you are the architect the screenwriter the stage designer a custom designer you write the diary and this is you is your closest who you are and you should listen to it and as he said if you find the right way to listen to what you might save your life or you might save in a way this country that in a way is built also on dreams and we should have the right dreams the themes that are useful they work they are meaningful and not the wrong ones they are no longer the right forms so you both do such a great contributions thank you all and thanks for all listeners to stick with us if you stick with us for the time we know we went a bit over time but it was important to hear from Jodana and Philippe and if you still want to keep on listening to us and it's important we need great audiences you need great theater but we need for you to listen and also for them the artist to have the feedback and also it's about you and where you are the artist you create your life you create your days you create your engagement your actions so it's all also about you what they say about the artist means also our listeners in the sense of a voice of everybody in that way is an artist so if you want to hear more next week we also have I think a very very significant program with artists who engage for over decades in their life in theater and performance and help us to get meaning in this world we live in there's the great Christopher Donk from Belgium a very significant contemporary theater artist not as much known also as he shouldn't be he's very well known in Europe and around the world performance research has put out a book about him Peter Ekasson my colleague put it together he will be with us and he has significant things to say his work is objects robots space closed spaces and his deep concern for environment and also indigenous communities will be something we will hear from we have a tour from Spain Barcelona she runs the Salah Becket which is an innovative space over decades it's where new talents are forged come out and we have new work shows up first the great and Bogart will be with us in Bogart who has also as a pioneer engaged in working for theater and performance in America as an artist she's also a great teacher and her work always has been defined as an engagement as a social engagement socially engaged art form Patricia Cornelius is a playwright from Australia I was the 60s 70s generation which very much engaged with communities with so the people who are the disadvantage at the margins of society and so we will hear what is happening in Australia and then again we will hear from Hong Kong high five will talk to us we had a Hong Kong artist already with us and they say a bit what you guys said using this is the crisis the crisis for us also will start once this is over we just heard yesterday uh China imposed new restrictions new laws that are unacceptable for democratic structure as such that was promised to hold for 50 years and it's a came a shock to everybody there yesterday and and so we will hear an update up from our colleagues in Hong Kong and see what's on their mind so again thank both of you for being with us thanks for how long for sticking with us the uh and Travis and of course the great VJ Andy and Sanyang from the Seedle team and really to our listeners thank you for taking the time to to be with us and also listen to voices of artists they are on the right side of social justice of social progress they have been on the right side of history always it's very very very few exceptions so if we would all listen more to them the world would be a much better place and I think as Jodana said we listen to the artists who come in to our place and we build the work from there it's a radically different approach if you think about commercial theater productions theater production base the karaoke system that exists in so many parts of the world that you're re-sing songs most of the time not as good as the original sometimes better yes but this is a new way of making Seedle new forms have emerged in this post-traumatic world we we do live in ensemble work and this is a great example from New York so thank you for joining and I hope to hear from you next week our audiences and also with questions and it was an engagement that that brings us forward in the search for for new forms and see what's already out there as Philippe and Jodana said they are great masters out there we just don't know about them so thank you and have a great weekend bye bye