 Three questions are where are we today in ground transportation in Hawaii, where do we want to be in 2045 and how do we get there, and what do we need to do in the next several years in order to move towards that vision. We'll have the panelists engage with each other and the moderator on key similarities and differences in their views and see common ground on what next steps are important to shape ground transportation policy in the future. So I'd like to welcome our panelists. We have Robin Shishito from Department of Transportation, Ben Sullivan from County of Hawaii, Dave Rowe from Hawaii Automobile Dealers Association, Akim Arsil from Elemental Accelerator, and Kathleen Rooney from Ulupono Initiative. And moderating the discussion is Amy Hordway here from the Federal Highway Administration. Welcome on. So first speaking is Robin Shishito from Hawaii Department of Transportation. Okay, so you know here at DOT, you know, we know that we need to do something now. You know, I've been in Hawaii or been here in the last two years and you've seen the impacts that we've been having to our roadway infrastructure system. Again, some of these photos starting at the top left corner. Last February or so, we had that storm with the winter event and on Honopi-Illani Highway. After the wind went through, we had a lot of rockfall. Next photo, also on Honopi-Illani Highway, you know, it's the level rise and a lot of shoreline erosion. You know, we have ongoing issues on that roadway. Coming down here to the bottom right side was a polytunnel, everyone's probably familiar with whoever lived on Oahu. And, you know, looking at the bottom left corner is a slight of tropical storms that have come through our area. I think that was from 2018. And we're just seeing a lot more of these events and a lot more frequently and more impactful. Some other events had happened in Kauai Island. You know, the upper left is when we had that record rainfall that came through in 2018 as well. And on the bottom right is what resulted after that, you know, stabilizing the slope. The pictures on the upper right and the bottom left is West Maui along our bypass road. This was right before Hurricane Lane. And, you know, at the DOT, we're preparing for a hurricane coming through. And through all that, we ended up with a big massive fire. And with all the drying conditions, it would just have a lot of fuel for fires to come through. Lastly, you know, looking at sea level rise. This is the lead on Camp 5, Kamehameha Highway. The black line is the existing road. The blue line is where the existing shoreline is. And the colored areas is where the sea level rise and what is going to be impacting. So, you know, we recently did a study report that had, I think, about 20 priority locations for us. So, you know, we're going through and addressing those. When we look at transportation, the sustainability standpoint, I mean, it's more than just reducing our fossil fuels. Looking at our energy consumption through our energy savings contract, performance contract. You know, we've converted a lot of our lights, lighting systems to LED lights. Looking at vehicle standards. You know, we're looking at fleet conversion from our fossil fuel for ice vehicles going to electric vehicles. We recently put out a RFP to request proposals for charging or electric vehicles and charging infrastructure as a service. That should be opening up here in the next few weeks. We're looking at green construction. We have different things that are doing like carbon injected concrete, you know, to reduce our overall carbon footprint within, you know, the island. Research, you know, we're also looking at other technologies which we can further help, you know, reduce our carbon footprint. And, you know, with interagency coordination, just, you know, looking at talking to other agencies, you know, when we look at realigning our roads or, you know, any other land use that I'm planning and, you know, which roads we can look to further move inland. And so, with that, I mean, that's kind of where DOT, you know, what we're facing right now, where we're going, where we're trying to reduce our carbon footprint. You know, here's our Oahu district where we recently purchased electric vehicles and it's helped some of our chargers. I think that's about all I had. Well, I guess, you know, so looking at all those photos, you know, it looks like a real gloomy picture, but hopefully with all these changes we're making, you know, we're going to be headed in the right direction. Amazing. A minute under time. Wow. Do I get that minute? No, I get it. Okay, Katie can have it. And now we've got Ben Sullivan from County of Kauai. Okay, so my name is Ben Sullivan. I'm the Energy and Statability Coordinator on the County of Kauai. I work for Mayor Derek Kawakami. A lot of new legislators out here know him as the former state rep. I really enjoy what we're doing over there. Given a little context, again, we are talking about climate change and we have been like quite a bit over there. Things are, there's too much water, there's not enough water, there's too much water again in terms of sea level rise, and then there's things that are just out of place with that buffalo. So that's what we face, right? That's the future. The picture on the top there is me kind of parking my bicycle wherever I can, and that happens all over town, that happens to be at the brewery, not just at Coincidence. Hello, is this where we're out here? Which one? So where are we at today with transportation? We've got a hammer and everything's a nail. Every single problem we've solved for decades and decades and decades of transportation is a car solution. And so really this is about the mode shift as we see it. The solutions we have now have created a lot of inequity across our communities. We have limited choice as far as how we get around other than cars. People have to pay for expensive cars, they have to drive far, they have to sit in traffic. That has created widespread health issues that we're all well aware of. We have reduced community cohesion, we have traffic and capacity backlogs that we can't possibly catch up with, and Robin knows very well about that. And we have large and growing GHG emissions. So that chart right there just showing Kauai emissions and you see about a third of it from cars and trucks. This is where we want to be. The good news, see that was blue, which was bad news, this is green, which is good news. The good news is that we get all these benefits if we change. So if we actually really mode shift, if we really go for this, we get more equitable choices in our transportation. People that aren't making enough because they're working in the service industry can ride a bus and they can still afford to pay the rent, they can still afford to choose good healthy food. We can give choices in terms of diversity. There was conversations about an e-scooter bill this year, which I think would be great. Last year it was an e-bike bill that really made a big difference in terms of enabling electric bicycles. We get more healthy residents and the Department of Health is doing a tremendous job already really connecting the built environment and the importance of the built environment on people's health. We get connected communities. City and County Climate Change Office identified connected communities as a key resilience strategy. So there's another benefit we get by getting people out of their cars as much as possible and not to eliminate cars just to say that cars can play a role and so can other modes. We get functioning systems. If we keep going on the trajectory we're on with cars and growth, we will be stuck in traffic, period. If we stop, we can actually go forward and not expand the need for capacity on our roadways. We just basically offset, almost like we're doing an energy efficiency, we offset off-feature load growth with shift in modes. Last thing, we can zero out GHG emissions and Dave's going to give some points on how challenging that would be and I'm eager to hear those points. How am I doing? Two minutes. Two minutes? Wow. Okay, so how do we transform ground transportation? We've got to put equity first and this is a conversation that I think a lot of us have been really, a lot of people have been helping me understand better, really some smart people out there advocating and telling us, hey, look, you know, we're going to try to solve these problems. These are universal problems, but why don't we start by putting resources in a place where it will help people the most? So we, you know, the example I was talking about today a lot is if we're giving EVSE incentives, EV Charter incentives, let's not give them to the folks in Occo buying $1.5 million apartments. Let's give them to teachers that maybe need charging at their schools or let's give them to the communities who are barely affording their rent so that they can actually charge vehicles and save money on maintenance and fuel. Improving data systems is critical, right? We don't know how people are really moving around. We don't know who is moving around and where they're going. We have basically the tube counters and there's a lot of technology out there that can take us a long way forward in terms of data collection, but we need to work together. And what I've seen on a limited basis on Kauai is that we're kind of working on our own solutions and not really thinking about this as a systems problem. We need to leave by example. So as a county, our state employees still can't rent an electric vehicle when you go to rent a vehicle, which is completely crazy because it's our policy that we want to be 100% clean by 2045 yet our employees can't actually participate in that. But that can change and I have heard some smart legislators thinking about working on that. Increased development density, we all know about this. Land use is one of the big issues. Scott mentioned that. Thanks, Scott. We're working on it. This actually is a project, the Lihui Tiger Grant, which is the town called Revitalization and it's really looking at how do we make this better. The last thing is engage community to build and support change. This came up in, I think, the first panel. So we're doing that in a lot of ways. There's somebody building an electric Alfa Romeo Spider at the community college. This is our utility cooperative who is a huge success story in terms of what they've done with renewable energy. We're hoping that they're going to jump into the game on ground transportation and they're already showing signs that they're doing that. This is Kauai at all of us challenge. Check it out at kauaichallenge.org. This is actually something that's going to come statewide and engage households in this solution. Thank you. Thank you, Ben. Bravo. Thanks, Ben. It's been a joy working with you, by the way, and everybody on the panel here. And they taught me the big shock. I just learned that today after 45 years of living here. I work with the auto dealers and I'm David Rawls, the executive director of the new car dealers association. I have an electric car and many of the dealers have electric cars too. And I see Mitch out here too. We've been working with hydrogen. And now you have hydrogen as electric cars as of this year. Now that took four years to pass, but it's now there and happening. And I was hoping they would answer that question about are we going to extend those benefits for electric cars now. But I'll let me jump into this by showing you what the world would look like in 2045 or beyond that actually with 100% renewable fuel. And I was glad the governor was here because his executive order 017 is what launched the Penn State students into doing a big study of what autonomous vehicle cars would look like in combination with the Honolulu Rail. And since AVs have so much in common with EVs, I thought I'd start off by showing you what the dream looks like. Here is a pocket of autonomous vehicles in Waipahu and it's all built around the rail station. And so what these students did was they saw on the internet the governor's executive order 017 saying we're open for business for the development of the autonomous vehicle, which by the way I said many will be electric vehicles. So we dealers joined with the University of Hawaii, Department of Engineering, and created the Hawaii Autonomous Vehicle Institute with the idea of helping us move forward on these renewable energy goals. But lo and behold, the students in Penn State envisioned the whole thing and started drawing pictures of it. So this is what it looks like with 100% renewable fuel and the cars are parked outside this zone and they actually sit in these vertical parking garages and you can have your car kind of come to you, pick you up, and then of course you can go over to the rail station or you can go wherever you want and then it goes back into its vertical parking area. We asked the good people at Deloitte after they gave us this incredible graphic if we had permission to show it. And sure enough here are suburbs with the blue houses there on the left-hand side. Your car takes you to the rail station, you hop aboard, go off to your work, come back, and the car goes back to your garage in your house and then it comes back to pick you up and get home. So I know I'm talking a little bit about autonomous vehicles, it's because that's where we feel is the way to kind of get toward some of these goals because I'm going to show you the heavy lift that we have to do, we have to have a lot of different ideas. What happened, by the way, we were putting together this idea of autonomous vehicle pockets and lo and behold, out came this gigantic thing from Japan this week, and I don't know if you saw it in the news, but it's called the Woven City. And the good folks at Toyota are creating a giant city that is all autonomous vehicles and artificial intelligence and all sorts of robotics. And it will be this idyllic city in Mount Fuji that is this biggest Silicon Valley. Now they're going to kind of test all this stuff going forward. Well that, it was exactly what the Penn State students had envisioned as these autonomous vehicle pockets that we as an auto dealer association embraced and started going forward to see if we could get us to this great goal that we all kind of looked at together. So here's where we are now. So we have about 10,000 vehicles on the roadway in Hawaii. The dealers have all brought those in, they paid for them, they had to buy them first and it's $400,000 I think they've put up already for that. We said there would be 10,000 on the roadways in Hawaii by 2020, there's almost 10,000 on the roadways by 2020. When we were participating in the White Clean Energy Initiative we said there would be about 50,000 by 2030, it's all on track to do that. And we said here's what it's on track to do the way we're headed now and that's to have 29.3% of the cars on the roadway by 2045. That's 293,000 vehicles that would be electric. The rest of them as you'll see in the year by year graphic there are hybrid electric vehicles and gasoline vehicles and hydrogen vehicles and all sorts of other things. So there's quite a heavy lift to take this big graphic here which shows how many cars will be on the roadway because we sell 50,000 new cars a year and over a 20 year period that's a million. So here's what it would look like if you had to transition to get to all those million cars to be electric. Come 2025 you would have to start selling every car that we have on our lot and in our showroom would have to be electric or hydrogen. And you'd have to see this giant bar above all those bars above the red line would have to have charging stations or when we talked to the hydrogen people we said could you put in that many much hydrogen infrastructure in the next 20 years even when we talked to the electric folks we said will you be able to cover all those cars in the next 20 years after 2025 and everybody kind of scratches their head and that's why we started looking at things like the 80 pockets all these other concepts because we know that free market enterprise with people coming to Hawaii as we're open for business that can help us get there. You just can't mandate that everybody buys an electric car starting in 2025 to hit there. I don't know if we could get the cars either so cars are connected to everything and I appreciate it being connected to you because it's been wonderful working on all this together with everybody. We call it a pure joy and we say we can move the mathematical proof of pure joy because it's so hard to do. Thank you. I appreciate being connected to you too Dave. Thank you. So I'm Aki Marceau. I'm the managing director of policy and community for Elemental Accelerator and we're a nonprofit organization and we actually just moved from Bishop Street to Alakea Street. We're in a lee place now so over the next few months I look forward to seeing e-folks kind of hop into our office. It's great to see so many friendly faces in the audience and you know I've been thinking kind of at the beginning of this year what 2020 really means. Who does New Year's resolutions? Can you raise your hands? I don't do a resolution per se but I set an intention so I have a word that I say to myself and this year and Amy actually mentioned this in her conversation but this year my word is courage or courageous and when I think of 2020 you know remember back to Y2K that felt like a really scary time in our lives right? So 2020 seems a lot scary to me and that's because this is the decisive decade for climate change and this is essentially going to show whether or not we can live and inhabit and kind of thrive on this earth and on this planet for generations to come. And so when I'm thinking about transportation you know when I talk about courage there's always this intersectional aspect to it so a lot of you folks are familiar with the graph on the left which shows how much we have to peak our emissions globally within the next five years or so and then we have to rapidly decarbonize as fast as we can within the next 50 to 20 years. So that's some scary stuff I think we can do it, I mean we have to do it we don't really have a choice but that's kind of as Scott mentioned in his comments transportation is one of the biggest leaders in causing climate change right now. So but meanwhile kind of on the day to day basis there's something that we can't really avoid and I think folks at HDOT in the auto industry just anyone who is on streets ever thinks about and that's around safety. And so you probably all remember that really tragic accident that happened on Kamakai and Alamoana Boulevard last year and it actually makes me kind of emotional to think about but I would like to say that having three pedestrians die because of a drunk driver in the middle of the day is an unusual circumstance but actually this is a screenshot from the Star Advertiser from January 3rd and so it goes to show that you could actually probably say that people are seriously injured or killed by cars every single day in the state and that can't be avoided you know I mean the climate change doesn't make the issues that already exist kind of disappear it actually exacerbates them all and so I want you folks to kind of think about that challenge that we have so you think we mobilize around the safety issue you know you think we try and transition to multimodal transportation really rally around transit oriented development different modes of transportation walking, biking, that type of thing but the reality is and you can tell me if I can tell me what the facts are we're buying more Toyota Tacomas right and there's nothing necessarily wrong with buying a Toyota Tacoma that's kind of what we're taught to buy do you guys have you seen that little bit on YouTube with Joe Coy with a Toyota Tacomas check it out it's really funny but that's kind of the state at which we are right now and so we're buying we're in this transportation arms race right now where we're buying bigger and bigger vehicles with the illusion that those vehicles are safer and the fact of the matter is is that they're not so on the EV so there's that safety side on the EV and decarbonization front this is data that we collected three years ago from when we published Transcending Oil and it showed we have these really ambitious goals of zero emission vehicle by 2045 100% and I think those goals really make a lot of sense within the state of our climate crisis we shouldn't shy away from them actually to them but what that what this shows is that in order to get there we actually have to as they mentioned really limit the sale of internal combustion engines within the next 10 years very drastically and I think the good news is that we are getting there we're selling a number of EVs right now we hit the 10,000 vehicle mark this year but I was a little disappointed there was recently a star advertiser editorial that came out that said that you know oh we hit that we've hit the tipping point you know let's just stop there you know we have some fees and registration let's just stop there we actually need to start leaning into this more and more and we cannot back away from electric vehicles and zero emissions vehicles because we have a lot of work to do for us to meet our 2045 goals and for us to decarbonize the transportation sector so from the elemental accelerators perspective we've had a lot of conversations with you folks with a lot of different players in the transportation space and kind of around that some concentric circle outside of the transportation space and the things that we're going to really lean into in the next year are putting more butts in seats increasing mode shift making electrification easier that was talked about quite a bit decarbonizing freight and aviation and supporting transportation and rural communities and we think that last piece is really important because commute times are actually one of the things that can take people out of poverty and in this next legislative session I think Scott presented a really great overview of the funding for the state energy office and all of the capacities that they have but we need to start to reallocate more funding into the state energy office so they can do things like support innovative measures that I think a lot of folks have already mentioned today but also be able to implement and activate the community to make sure that people aren't left behind in this really rapid transition that's going to happen within the next 10 years thank you as we find me and my name is Kathleen Rooney I'm the director of transportation at Olufano initiative and we are Hawaii based impact investment firm where we make non-profit and for-profit investments in clean transportation and renewable energy, local food production and better managing our waste and water and within the clean transportation space we've made all different types of investments over the past few years helping launch Biki doing work on the autonomous vehicle task force we've seen here and a few others in the audience and really just trying to continue to invest in these types of things that help us get towards Hawaii's self-sufficiency particularly as it pertains to fuel imports and emissions and so where are we going this is actually from the 2016 GHG emissions and you can see here is that basically we're hanging out at the same space in transportation and have been now for 20 years everybody's kind of getting better more efficient doing more we're not that different the top one is the total emissions so you can see how that's gone over for the past 20 years and then on the bottom is the transportation numbers and how they break down and I think it looks green to everybody because it does to me you know ground transportation is there and it's a big part and I think Scott really underlined how this one is one of the big things that we really need to grapple with so that's where we're at and then where do we go I think you know there's been a lot of commitments in terms of where we need to go in ground transportation and you know it's 100% renewable energy across all the counties and I think that's a pretty excellent goal and how do we get there so with some points from organizations transcending oil report we really need to you know continue to shift to state land use and transportation modes away from auto modality we've seen a lot of good things happening in sort of downtown redevelopment areas but that needs to be a wholesale shift we need to price the full cost of parking and driving for users it's just people do not actually know how much it costs to provide all of these things that support driving we need to design public streets for moving people not vehicles right now we care how fast your car gets there we don't actually care where you're going how you need to get there all those types of things as part of our analysis and that really does need to shift we need to think about how to move as many people through some of these really congested corridors not just the cars they're in we need to stop and do seem demand which some folks may not be as familiar with this topic although I see some people definitely nodding their heads but for every 10% increase in lane miles that we develop we basically see another 9% increase in BMT which means people just when we build more roads we build more driving and we really need to stop doing that now most folks will say that we don't necessarily do that but we do build new space on our existing roads right we don't build a lot of new roads anymore but we do add a lot of capacity to the existing ones and then also for the vehicle miles travel that need to be on the road making them as clean as possible this can include all sorts of things people who just realistically don't have any other choices for whatever reason either personal circumstances mobility limitations all those things making those as clean as possible as well as for transit vehicles and all those ones that are you know carrying all those shared routes where do we need to go in the next several years the big one is that we really do need to align our state investments in the most recent 2020 executive supplemental budget the number one the transportation priorities of which there are about five projects across the state is 1.3 billion in new projects that induce demand and basic Google effectively increase our BMT within three to five years that's just the recent priorities that came out from the governor's office we need to stop doing that realistically it's actively working one of them is in the two of them are in the H1 corridor and they're actively working against what I would say is the rail investment we're making we need to develop that implementation plan what's the roadmap we have a sense of the big picture policies but what does that really mean on the ground we do need to continue to put more money into the lowest emitting modes biking pedestrians transit you know realistically like to buy a vehicle an electric vehicle may take time and energy but you can start walking more trips tomorrow every single one of us can if you can't do work try school if you can't do school try the grocery store you know we don't need everyone to switch we need about 30% of people to switch 30% of their trips to make a rail dent having the state lead by example they currently employees receive pay less for parking here than they do for their bus past every month that's another one and then electrifying our vehicles faster so what we've talked about is that we can really accelerate this process and my last takeaway is that we really do need to confront the truth of the vehicle economy that we put our money towards pretty significantly just this past month in Massachusetts they Harvard Kennedy School analyzed how much goes towards this and this is the road maintenance this is you owning your cars this is the safety costs this is air pollution and hospitalizations all of these things together we're looking at $13 to $16 billion a year and they're bigger than us in lane miles and percentage but if you put this into Hawaii if you extrapolate off of that we're looking at $13 to $16 billion a year across our 9700 lane miles and our 1.4 million people and they also said that about 55% of that total is going to be coming out of public costs across all of our government agency decisions which is about $7 to $9 billion a year we don't have money to afford a bike lane or we don't have the ability to build out our sidewalk network I would say we do we just aren't spending it on it I just wanted to mention that we do have a 16 person office here in Hawaii just a couple of blocks away and our job is simply to oversee and provide stewardship for the $180 million which sounds like nothing now Katie thanks of federal highways funding that comes to Hawaii I'm the transportation planner for the office so I think a lot about the planning and the FAST Act is the current transportation act that's in place and the FAST Act asks that the state and the metropolitan planning organizations here do their service transportation plan with 10 factors in mind we ask them to look at a lot and consider a lot and certainly we don't ask them just to look at how fast do cars go but I wanted to show you that specifically FAST states and MPOs to promote energy conservation and so as a planner with that in mind I wanted to look at what are the most energy efficient modes of transportation so this slide shows that it's a British slide so it's in metric but the slide shows of course that the most efficient modes are shown at the top and they're in green and blue that's like biking, walking, light rail and bus those are the modes that take the least amount of energy to move one person one kilometer in this case and the least energy efficient modes are at the bottom in red and brown and so I wanted to see how do people get to work today in Hawaii and so this is our mode share, I made the colors kind of the same and you can see that our community work is very energy intensive we use a lot of the brown modes and very few of the blue modes and green modes and it seems that a lot of the conversation even that what we heard today is about electric cars and I'm a happy electric car owner by the way but over half of the trips that are on Oahu are under three miles and as a transportation planner those are short trips that we could easily convert to an energy efficient mode like transit, biking or walking and I slept my kids all over the place in my electric car but I also take them on the bus and I take them biking and walking and I want to know if we can make that easier for everybody to make that choice I want to ask is there a way that we can use less energy and not just convert the source of energy so again that's our mode share today in Hawaii for journeys to work Kauai County has a bit of a greener mode share, congratulations Ben I was glad to see that and that's our 2035 goal here's the state of California looking at making less than half of its trips by driving in a car, even by carpooling for those trips by car and I wondered can we, why don't we aim for beating the state of California let's look at a mode share that's mostly green in the future just in that vein I wanted to say that I mentioned earlier that the state of Hawaii gets about $180 million via the federal highway system and we have highways in our names but we support a lot of all of the modes that we've been talking about today electric vehicle charging stations infrastructure for public purposes we support transit infrastructure biking and pedestrian infrastructure we support the studies that would look at transportation demand management or TDM so when we ask whether there's a revolution I want to say that there's a great time to be talking about that right now because Hawaii DOT is starting its statewide transportation plan literally like right now and it's going to update that plan that sets a lot of policies for the state transportation system and it's a great opportunity to take a data driven approach and evaluate how our transportation options can truly contribute to those 2045 energy goals please get involved especially those of you here who are very concerned about a carbon neutral future hopefully that's all of us in the room talking about mode shifts from several presentations not just including mine but from several presentations. I heard about the need for institutional change from H DOT which I think is wonderful they're not just thinking about building more roads for cars to go faster but how can they green their fleet how can they work with others I think partnership has obviously been a theme of the day and I think the more that we can get out of our own silos the better I heard about the hope for autonomous electric vehicles and I guess I wanted to ask first let me see I guess what I was surprised about was kind of there was some divergence of opinion for sure but we have the private sector public sector nonprofit sector here and I heard a lot of commonalities I am not sure the public is on board with these solutions that we proposed and I want to ask the panelists do you perceive a difference between what the public thinks and what the public thinks if so how do we get the public on board with some solutions please feel free to go I'd like to speak to that if I could okay the auto dealers are a client of mine but I own an advertising agency it's the second oldest ad agency in the town and I've always felt that the public would get more on board if we communicated with them in fact we've asked Brian since you have a $30 million budget $30 million of that and we will advertise with an enormous advertising campaign talking about the benefits of making this transition and then you would have all of Hawaii on board with understanding and having everybody on the same page $3 million a year out of the $30 million budget we've requested that that would change the whole world okay communicate do you think that there is a really significant set of people that are on board with this that's not necessarily the way the process is structured about meeting those needs like the number one consideration or concern I think for a lot of people who live here is like the cost of living and it's I don't think it's totally visible to them how much this costs us all and so some of that is education I think it's also actually responding to the fact that like we need to be doing things to make these lower emitting GHG and frankly more affordable and more accessible to everybody and then that's listening and that's meeting their needs and that is and continuing to talk about that a lot of times it's really about I'm sick of congestion basically if we remove one car another one shows up so it's really a challenge we need to get people into new options the road will always be filled and we need to find other options so it's not always about education and then trying to tailor our disciplines sort of planning perspective towards that like how are we as agencies or you know people in this public policy space developing policies that help address those challenges explicitly within transportation and within energy then I can see so just really quick you know it's an important question but it is a communication question it's not really the right question we can't afford to continue to expand it is flat out impossible we did a state highway update on Kauai we saw a 10x difference between what we need and what we can afford so we're talking about an order of magnitude shortfall of money so it's not an option what we need to communicate to people is we're going to be stuck in traffic until we decide to get out of our cars that's it for the DOT we realize we can't build out anymore and kind of touching on what Dave mentioned about connected autonomous vehicles that's the direction we want to hit the island we've already upgraded our signals getting ready for that and you know with that hopefully less vehicles on the road we can have traffic signals be a transit priority we get safer for pedestrians so that would encourage more walking bicycling and so forth just to kind of hop on that train, no pun intended I'm sorry transportation joke I think it's kind of hard to ask the public which obviously isn't a monolith either what they want because that's something that people don't think about all the time I mean transportation is essentially a conduit to do what you want to do in your day to day life and live the life that you want to live I think very similar to energy in that way I what from what I hear and what I've heard over just the course of kind of working in this community is that people want to live a dignified life they want to have a healthy family they want their family to be safe they want to have to be able to live a life that they essentially want to live and have that freedom and flexibility and I think it's really I mean it's definitely a collective decision but there's certain blind spots that people have that otherwise you wouldn't be able to see if you didn't have kind of the viewpoint of say the state of the city probably not the best person to quote right now but I did see a presentation by Carlos Gone a few years ago and he did make a good point so maybe not unlike tax accounting but related to automobiles one of the things that he did say was that cars are less like a refrigerator and more like a puppy and that always stuck with me because it made me realize how sticky cars were in that sense you know it's like you need your car you spend a lot of time with it you wash it you know and so I think when you ask if the question is what does the public want that's a really hard question to answer because it's like yeah of course the public wants a puppy but if that puppy is going to lead to greater carbon emissions and lead to a lot of traffic and all these other things it's kind of hard to really make an individual evaluation about the TN, demand management, travel demand management I heard energy management mentioned very freely in the energy panel that we just have they talked about pricing to incentivize charging their cars at different times do you think there's any way we can make a demand management or pricing discussion part of the transportation discussion? the first thing we'd have to do is actually have the data about how people are moving around which we really don't have right now we have overall volumes but we now have specific syntax and time of day high resolution. I will agree with that. There's a reason why I put our journey to work data and not all chips and that is because we don't know how all of our trips in the state work. So I would agree with that. I think data is a great hookah here and I would like to encourage you then to reach out to the statewide planning office and ask them to address the data hookah while they're doing a statewide plan. It's a good opportunity. I was always surprised. We got a call from the mainland group talked to us for an hour on a big conference call. We don't do fleets but they talked about they had software that would allow the fleets to be able to save massive amounts of money by not going over the demand charge at some point. I never really realized until I looked up in our little statues that we have demand charges. The good folks in the electric company can explain that more thoroughly. But wow is that a complex piece of math. As much as I enjoy mathematics and then my mathematical proof of joy I will tell you that demand charge concept is really complex. How you communicate to the public. I don't know. But yeah they do it with software and fleets. But that's a hard question and hard to even explain. Does anybody else want to talk about my question or should I? I just want to highlight one thing. So Hawaiian Electric Company and one of our companies E-Motor Works which was recently acquired by NLX are actually doing a project right now. Yeah yeah so they're doing their project right now. That's looking at how electric vehicle drivers and users kind of interact with the grid and hopefully that can help inform some of the demand response efforts that the utility is creating in partnership with the Public Utilities Commission. And so I encourage those types of projects to continue to happen. And I think in the space that the Accelerator works in there's a lot of technologies and companies that we see that are trying to figure out with you know the incorporation of data. How do how people use both the grid or the road or parking lots and price those in accordance with demand with supply and demand. Katie do you want to take a stab and then I have one last question for the panel. I will make it super fast because I know you want to move on to the question. But I would say you know we always talk about it in terms of like increasing the price of things. But we pay in other ways right now and I think we sometimes forget that is that like not being able to find a parking spot because it's priced improperly means that people sit around in queue for days or like people sit in cars put their cars in storage literally on public streets because there's no you know that's it doesn't cost them anything to do that. And so we aren't really getting a sense of like what people are willing to pay or what's really important to them because it's all essentially not they're not paying for it as a direct user right now and I think that's one of the things that we sort of forget is that if you price some of these things more accurately they then may be available to people who really need them like with mobility needs or people who you know have some other sites of challenges or you know just making some sort of way in which we all say that like waiting for something is not the right way to like evaluate its worth but rather some sort of price mechanisms can help us get at some of those things a little bit more effectively so and that there are real benefits to that then making some of those things managed more effectively means we may not have to spend as much on the entire supply associated with it you know parking is a good example in the sense that most urban areas have you know 30 40 percent more parking spaces than they need and a $50,000 a pop to build them in a structure like that's a lot of money and we're just not managing well so it's there we're just not using it properly when we need to and under the right circumstances and there's a lot of benefits to capturing that maybe we can communicate that use day skills education we're not the real price of things then start to understand the demand and shape that demand my last question and we do need to wrap things up really quickly so I'm going to go down the line we are in the same capital it's beginning of the ledge what's the one thing you would like the ledge to do this year for your point of view for out-surface transportation well for us of course it's always money outside of our highway fun that's always great but I'm actually don't talking about the connected autonomous vehicles you know as we get forward and you know looking at our infrastructure getting ready for that there's gonna be a lot of legislation that's going to be changed or need to be changed to accommodate that I don't know the exact needs right now but you know it's things we're looking at so real quick on the mode shift question e-scooters let's do that let's figure it out on the electric vehicles question you know there was a question about 2025 and mandating that no one buy internal combustion engine I think that's the wrong way to look at it I think what we need to think is everyone's gonna want to buy an electric vehicle in 2025 and so how do we get ready so EV ready SB 1000 from last year's great bill requires building owners in new construction to actually put in the infrastructure both the conduits and the panel capacity to put in future EV charging much much cheaper to do it that way than rich fit I think I got a call this morning asking if I could supply all the autonomous vehicle legislation around the country to the Attorney General's office because legislators were asking and wanting to put through connected to autonomous vehicle legislation authorization this year so that is a handful some of those bills are 54 pages long as some of these states have been at it since 2011 the reason I've been pushing autonomous vehicles so much is because it becomes an answer to everything and the economy and all sorts of things and my graphic was put up there to show that you'd have to sell everything past 2025 and electric vehicles and there's just not the infrastructure available to park that in there to do it that was my purpose of showing that not to say that we ought to mandate that people go out and buy the cars we can't do that we have to find a way to get it done through let's give a chance let's pass the baton to Akie we've got one minute left okay double tap on what Ben said and I'd like to kind of continue to lean into the initiatives that already exist so bike share Hawaii we should continue to support them even more than we are already now both on the state and local level and then I'd also love to see more funding go back into the state energy office because they have a pretty large kind of marching order right now that has a time fuse on it too and so they need all the resources that they can get so so please please continue to fund and provide more funding into the state energy office starting to evaluate all of our infrastructure investments to moving more people and not vehicles you want to validate your 13 yes yeah yep I want to know like I wanted to do that and if if that means giving the state energy office money to like really do that kind of stuff or hypothesize about it and put we shift that funding then so be it