 You know, there's a big element to my story that I think is harder, more difficult, I guess. I'm talking about my experiences around my secondary school age. I guess I'd like to understand a little bit more about your perspective on situations that I had, whether I was at school, around my mental health, around my harming behaviors, and sort of ideation. I guess like, was there a point in which you kind of realized that something was a bit off with me? Was it like a one day kind of clicked and I just didn't talk anymore and I loved really dysregulate and unhappy or was it kind of a gradual? I think this was a tough one because we'd always kind of had quite, you know, we had this little boy that, you know, would chat, talk and we could kind of guide and support and then, like I said, you almost went through this tunnel backwards, but all of a sudden you kind of left, we lost you and it was almost like that. Like an instant kind of. Without even realizing that we'd lost you and I thought it's teenage years and everybody used to say, oh it's teenage. It's all about it, it'll be fine. Whereas I'd done a lot of reading and I knew that with that spirit you could develop mental health difficulties because of high anxiety and social demands and so forth. But I thought, you know, what would have been supportive, you know, it comes from a nice family and being supportive, you know, it's got people around him, it's fine, you know, he's just been a teenager. But actually what I didn't see was that you could not find your place. You just did not have your place in the world. You did not know where you fit. So you went from finding your autism diagnosis a relief to absolutely despising it and not wanting anything to do with it and moving as far away from anything like that as possible, including talking to myself, if you had people that were close to you, you kind of shut down. The first time I knew about your arming was, it used to be a brilliant swimmer. And all of a sudden you didn't want to go swimming. And we thought it was because of the sudden light could be through, but actually which was probably one of the hardest things for me as a parent was you were actually arming and again, selfishly, I thought it's something I've not done or have done that's caused that. You kind of put yourself as the blame for it. Selfishly, yeah, probably. I didn't quite understand self-harming. I didn't, I kind of knew that I had to let you do it. And as a parent, that goes against the grain completely because you want to protect your child and make sure your child's okay. But yeah, you have to just make sure all these supports in place and then you kind of move through it. I think that's one of the hardest things ever really. And yeah, yeah, that was difficult. And then we just, the only support we had really was the school nurse. It was great, but the school didn't really understand it. Secondary school, I was saying, didn't understand it. So it was still doing okay academically, wasn't it? It was still career in a head and that was fine as long as you were performing academically, you know. Actually, it's not, you know, a priority that you were okay emotionally and that didn't seem to be a priority. So I thought it wasn't a great deal of support out there apart from Cams and you got referred to Cams and you would talk to your health worker, but you wouldn't talk to us as a family. To be honest, I didn't really say much to her either. Which was fine, which was not criticism, you know, you had to go through with that process, didn't you? But I didn't find it very helpful. There was little guidance and support, there was a very little guidance and support for you as a young person, if I'm honest. It's better now. And I think if I'd known about social care and how they could have supported other side, maybe I would have gone down that route to get you a PA or support. But I think there was always a stigma with social care that there isn't now that. So social care is a really positive thing to actually add support to the family, you know, and to make sure that everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing and that there's a network around you and around the family. Was there was the person who was supporting me? Were they autism trained? Like, did they know much about autism? No, autism training just didn't really happen at that time at all. No, no, because I just, you know, obviously, I look back with all the knowledge and the research that I've done in adult life and stuff like lexithymia and cognitive empathy and all sorts of different things. Never was never really touched on or used in the context of support that I was getting because that I'd come away with these sheets of what to do, like when I'm anxious or what to do when I've had low mood. And they just they just didn't work because like, how am I supposed to regulate my anxiety when I don't know that I'm anxious until I'm at the point where I'm having a meltdown or a panic attack. It's like, it just didn't didn't work for me. And I really felt sort of during those sessions, I didn't talk talk to them very much at all. To be honest, I didn't open up about hardly anything because it just kind of felt a bit. I just felt like they didn't really understand me. And I didn't understand me, but I knew that they didn't like they couldn't really offer me anything that I felt was I don't know. I didn't feel like that they could offer me anything that that would help. I think there's some stuff around methods to like stop, stop with the harming behaviors, which kind of worked a little bit. But no, it's kind of like one of those situations where I thought I had to kind of go to these and let them know that I'm okay rather than to talk about the feelings I was having. I think that also, there was not a bunny going on at school that you again didn't share. And actually through your podcast, we've kind of got to know about it. And sometimes they're a bit heartbroken because we didn't know because I think you didn't want to share it. No, I didn't tell anybody about anything. I even like my friends about the bullying and things like that. It was more like it was it was skull should have picked up on that really. There should be more vigilant because the only thing that school really did that was quite helpful was they allowed me to go to the sort of like the special needs department area that they had. But they didn't do anything with me. Like they didn't support me of anything. They just let me sit in there and have them melt down. And now and again, I talked to some of the teachers and stuff. But it was never something that was like proactively given to me. I had to like seek out the support from the teachers. And some teachers were really bad with understanding my difficulties and allowing me to like go outside when I'm having issues with my sensory stuff. And those some teachers were great. And some teachers were not so much. And I remember one of the one of the issues that I had, particularly around P is that I didn't like to get changed in front of the other the other kids. And so I'd always wait until the end of the thing to get changed. And I would always get like told off by like the teachers when I came late. Yeah, I was so hyper vigilant about the, you know, as you know, the boys boys changing rooms. They're a bit rowdy. And, you know, I was in the top set of PE. So as we've like all the kind of popular footbally kids and I was just kind of constantly aware of just like that stuff up until the point where I realized that when everyone started leaving, I was like, oh my god, I haven't got changed. And I'd always get told off by like the PE teachers, like, come on Tom, like, you know, you're late. No sense of urgency. No. And I hated PE. And it's it's weird that I hate PE. Because she did so well. I know. I think that don't be part of a team really turning things around for you. Yeah. It was kind of a bit of a random thing, wasn't it, trying something else to take over from the swimming? Just because I liked the anime. Yeah, you went into it. Because your special interest has always been sort of Japanese. Is that good risk? Because they did an exchange. If you actually went on the exchange, didn't you? It was around the time that Fukushima incident happened, wasn't it? So as we were having an exchange to exchange program with the schooling Fukushima and it was, it's a bit hard. It was it was a lot different to like what was planned. But it was good. It was a good experience for me. It was one of the only times that I really felt like accepted by group for like a in a long time. Because the Japanese students, they were like, really impressed with like my academic stuff. And they're really impressed with my Taekwondo. I was like, Oh my God, I just never get this like in my school. And it was kind of like, wow, like they actually see me and they want to talk to me. It's like, it was, I think that was the most. That was the most transformative thing for me. And I was talking to somewhere recently about like, this, I think I was talking to Timmy about the sort of how the American schools work versus British schools, because in like the American schools, like if you do well academically and you go to sports, you're like instantly just the popular person. Whereas in the UK, it's not like that at all. No, no, it's not. Sometimes the opposite. Yeah. But I think Taekwondo, I mean, you tried a few kind of martial arts. And then me, yeah, you did. You tried karate. And then eventually Taekwondo, when you just, that was it. You just took to it and it kind of the exercise and the routine and the formalities around it was good because it kind of helped your mental health. But then of course, you took it too far in terms of doing too much exercise, even brushing your teeth, you'd be doing squats and kind of yeah, he's really obsessed with it. And also, there was a weight category she had to be in and lose weight for and you lost a bit too much weight. So that's a bit healthy, but all the, but you faced a lot going into competitions and so forth. And have like a lot of meltdowns and panic attacks before. And you would use mindfulness and kind of focus on time. You were amazing. You've achieved so much really. And yet you and your dad have been like amazing with like helping me get to like, because they're Taekwondo clubs, like the sport Taekwondo clubs, because I started like a traditional one, like around Harrogate. And then I think, you know, one of our friends kind of encouraged us to kind of go to a sports place, try it out. They kind of head under me and started training there. We used to like travel back and forth after school. Yeah, two hour round trip to train. I don't know. I felt like I kind of, I remember my secondary school as secondary school experiences feeling kind of worthless. Like people to really, I didn't feel like people really saw me or found me interesting. And I, I kind of, I had like a some kind of passion or ignition to make myself better like all the time about in every setting I wanted to like, you know, I always had these goals because you know, your goals and your meaning and the reason why you do things that kind of separated from how you feel. Like if you're looking to be happy all the time, it's not always something that you can do, but you can always have a goal or a meaning that you strive to do. And I think that's what Taekwondo and what the academic stuff was about. Because I was like, all right, I'm going to prove myself. You know, I'm a good person. I am good at stuff. And I kind of thought that, you know, when I started getting awards and medals that people would I guess once talked to me more, be more social and that did happen within Taekwondo. And with the teachers, like in the top sets and stuff, but not like with the kids at school. So I always just felt like every time I went to school, it was kind of like, right, this is a task. And any time that I was actually in lessons or in the library revising or researching, I felt good. But then it was the stuff around it that I just couldn't cope with. And I tried to be social now and again, I got involved in different groups, but I was very much like a drifter. Like I didn't really have like a, like a best friend or like someone that I could rely on or something that I could, you know, talk to about my feelings. Which I think I found really difficult. But was nobody you could really trust whilst they're at that point in terms of talking? No, not friends, not people in my social circles. It was a hard time, wasn't it? Really hard on you and bittersweet with all the Taekwondo and the positive things and the traveling. So you learned to be more independent because you were traveling to different countries and working with a team. Working with a team and then that kind of set you up to kind of... Oh, with Taekwondo, yeah. I think we always kind of said, give it a go, Tom. You know, and then we did the prep around it in a way and tried to kind of find the best way to kind of support you to do those things, even though they were a challenge. I think that was the good thing about you is you would always give it a go. Well, you mean you taught me from UNH to give stuff a go. We always said, have your autism in your pocket kind of thing if you need it. But don't say I can't do it because just give it a go. You know, if you don't want to, you don't want to, but just try it. So it feels like a lot of parents, a lot of people, kind of going like to the two extremes, the river like, they can't do anything. So we're not going to expose them to it or they're like, they have to do everything that's expected of them. And they have to do all these things. And if they don't do it, then that's a bad thing and that they should be punished or they should be, you know, whereas with, with you, you know, growing up with you as my mom, it was kind of like, I was exposed to that stuff, but then if I needed to, I could exit and it wouldn't be like an expectation or an issue that I couldn't cope with it. I think that, that's the kind of dynamic that really works for me because I still got the experience of it, but then I felt safe enough to exit if I... I was quite often will say to kids, right, if we're going to commit to this, we're going to do it week after week. Yeah, week after week, you have to. Actually, it doesn't work with old, maybe with my younger son, it did, but not with you. Absolutely. But I also recognize that some parents will really struggle with their child with autism going to activities and doing things like that because maybe you're on your own, maybe your child has no sense of danger and that kind of thing and that is tricky. So I do recognize you can't always do that with your children. No, but it's about, it's about the adjustments though, isn't it? It is doing something that challenges, I'm a little bit. Yeah. It's not so exposing that it just causes them to find life just overwhelming. Yeah, because life is life and you have to have little tasters to know that actually I know how this is going to go. So the next time I do it whether I like it or not, I know how predictable it's going to be. And eventually I'll be able to cope with that because I know about that and that experience or that sensation and I can deal with it. It kind of things get worse before they get better, I guess, and it's writing it down sometimes. I hope you guys can hear me okay. You're doing great. You're doing great. So not a full voice to listen to for a little bit. Well, I mean, going a bit further because I know we were talking about how it was hard to get me support, like in an ideal world, what would you have wanted for me or what do you think would have been helpful either from the school or from mental health systems? I would have wanted a coordinated team around you, one of us as a family that were trained in autism, that were trained in sensory, were trained in mental health. So it's not kind of one size fits all kind of got had the chance to get to know you and and kind of fed that back into school and into the family as well. So it was more joined up. I think that would have worked better and also I think which is really powerful and particularly in schools is peer awareness. And other kids, you know, so you identify this child's being bullied for whatever reason just being their voice to say, this is the reason why this is what you can do to help. Is it what you could do to support them and kind of turn it on inside a little bit. So that's something else that I found with my teaching as well. This is so powerful. But I've done in primary schools before with teachers, the child has always become more powerful and kind of has a voice that is able to change things because while they're not, they're able to tell their story and what they find difficult if other children are aware then they don't. It's kind of more normal. I hate to use the word but more normalised and then it just becomes accepted, you know, and accepted. I think it would have been really good for me to have like a, like a role model that was autistic that, you know, like when I went into into schools and seeing the, seeing the other the kids and stuff. There was no film. There was Rain Man wasn't there. And that was it. So everybody thought everybody that was autistic behave like Rain Man. And that's just not the case of very stereotypical. But even just someone that I could, who was older who, you know, is doing stuff that I wanted to do and had their, you know, their, their life like sorted and there were adjustments sorted in daily life and just someone to like talk to about being autistic, I think would have been really helpful. But I think, you know, a lot of a lot of autistic people, you know, we just have such a hard time in life. It's hard for us to get into those positions where we're able to to be active role models for the kids. And I think it's changing. Overall, I think I think kids are kind of looking, you know, and finding my place easier, you know, some more diversity. But it's taking a long time coming, isn't it? Yeah, there's so much like work that needs to be done for like preparing like autistic kids for manipulation and bullying. And I don't know exactly how the best way to go about doing that is, but I think it just it definitely needs to be tackled because we know that like long term anxiety in formative years leads to development of depression and mental health. You know, it's it's something that really needs to be tackled. And I think that that bullying and social isolation and the sensory elements, social elements at school, they're absolutely just so impactful on like someone's long term mental health. You know, it's it's something that can, you know, follow you into adult life. You know, to find every aspect of life scary isn't really I can't imagine what that feels like, really, just find everything and everyone and every sound and every feeling really scary. I'm about to it's about having an impact on your mental health and your well-being. I think it's so important that we have that not awareness, because awareness is just that top flip surface saying oh yeah, no, about autism. I've read a bit about it. It's about about doing something about actually being proactive and saying look, you know, there's a kid over there or there's a mate over there or there's a kid over there that actually people are bullying or they're not being not being supported and actually just going look if you want to join in, you know, come and join in with those who'll be part of it. Our children and young people have just got so much to offer as friends, as children as as colleagues, you know, and just so much to offer, really. To offer? Yeah, completely, just to do it all sometimes, really.