 This is the breakfast in Plastivia, Africa. Many thanks for joining us this morning. We'll be joined by Professor Ken Oho-Zelo, Professor of Surgery and Constant Trauma Sojourn, University of Jours, right there, Teaching Hospital, immediate past President, Medical and Dental Consultants Association of Nigeria. We've been looking at the issue with the medical student. Yes indeed, merci. The medical students have been embroiled in a situation with the Medical Council of Nigeria, not just medical students, but medical graduates from the nation of Ukraine that has been embroiled in the war. We told that the fate of some returning Nigerian medical students from Ukrainian universities, it hangs in the balance. I don't know if it's still in the balance or if it's finally falling off that balance. But this is following the refusal of the medical and dental council of Nigeria to allow them to sit for exams, well aware of what has been happening in Ukraine with the war on Ukraine by Russia, or the Russia-Ukrainian war, whichever way you want to look at it. But the education in that country came to a halt following that invasion or that attack whichever side you are on on February 24th by Russian soldiers which led to a halt in activities in Ukraine. The plight of Nigerian students well documented. A lot of Nigerian students in different parts of Ukraine, even in Crimea, I knew someone in Crimea back in the day when the Crimean crisis started. Over 1,500 Nigerian students were displaced with the majority of them being final year medical students. And with all that's happening in the education sector in the country, you will not blame Nigerian students for making their way to different countries. You have Nigerian students in Cyprus, for instance, where they don't speak English. In Ukraine where they don't speak English. In other parts of the world. So, you know, the Nigerian medical, final year medical students preparing to graduate in June. They were preparing to graduate in June before the war broke out in February. One of the graduates, Bernie Zero, had become troubled. Despite his plan to return to Nigeria to practice, he disclosed that he and other colleagues had their hearts in their mouths before leaving Ukraine as they camped for safety. But when they got back to the country, they were told by the authorities in the country in Nigeria that they're not able to sit for their medical exams. And that is the main issue. The Medical and Dental Council of Nigeria is the regulatory body and the licensing body for all medical and dental experts. You have to be licensed by the Medical and Dental Council of Nigeria for you to practice medicine in the country. That Medical and Dental Council of Nigeria, the MDC, and organizes exams twice a year to determine qualified candidates to be grafted into the Nigerian healthcare system. Now, the exam dictates that if a graduate of medicine or dentistry will be licensed in Nigeria, he must go through that exam. Whether you study anywhere in the world, you must go through that exam. Now, on June 18, 2020, to the Medical and Dental Council, noting the statement that it will not honor the Medical and Dental Degree Certificates issued by medical schools in Ukraine from 2022 until when normal academic activities resumed. So that is the problem. That is the problem we're facing, the students are facing and complaining about right now. Merci. But we also have our professor joining. We'll just go straight to the crux of the matter because it's already been stated that students are not being allowed to write the examination one week after. I mean, it's just like one week period that they missed. And on the 18th of June, 2022, the association had already stated its position as regards those who did not meet the criteria. Of course, there are a lot of taxing that these students have been tagged as online students or those who studied online. But we'll have a professor joining the conversation this morning. Thank you so much, professor, for joining us this morning. Thank you very much for having me. So let's share your thoughts on the situation. What do you make of this? On the one hand, students are not being allowed to sit for the examination and on the other side, I mean, looking at the condition that happened that led them to this point and the stand of the association. Yes, like I said, thank you for having me. I think that it's unfortunate that this situation has arisen. I share in the plight of the students. I think that everybody knows that the unfortunate situation in Ukraine is something that was unforeseen and is something that has disrupted not just the education of these young Nigerians, but in many ways the whole world including economics and food crisis and all what not. So it's a major, major disruption in the whole order of the world presently. Now, having said that, the situation must be looked at from the point of view that it is not anybody's fault particularly. It is neither the fault of the students nor the fault of the medical and dental council of Nigeria. I think that to understand this situation, we need to know that the medical and dental council of Nigeria operates within regulations and these regulations apply even for medical schools in Nigeria. Now, the certificate obtained from Ukraine are recognized in Nigeria, but that recognition is predicated on a certain curriculum. Okay, so that curriculum is what compares completeness of training. So from the point of view of MDCN as a regulatory body, any detraction from the completeness of that training makes its cause, if not impossible, to recognize that certificate. If that certificate therefore falls short of recognition, then you would understand why they are not able to allow them seats for the exams to license them. I don't know if you are following me so far. Well, but one of the issues that's been raised by the Nigerian Medical Association is that there were reported online teachings of medical students and was not acceptable with anyone in the world. Let's even look at it. Are we saying that online teachings are not okay because a lot of people who are being schooled online, several even in Nigeria, I don't even want to go into mentioning some of those institutions where persons cannot converge at the center, at the central point, but take classes online and get to write the examination. Is this not a discrimination? And the students involved here were talking about just the one-week duration before the war. Yes. Yes, I totally understand what you're saying, you know, and it's hard not to feel for them. Okay, but if you want to understand the difficult truth that MDCN plays, medicine is unlike many other courses in the sense that it's an issue of literally life and death. Within Nigeria here, the curriculum of medical is tightly regulated. Any shortcoming is unaccepted and the curriculum is not fixed with a lack of money. Okay, so a school cannot just wake up and say, okay, we're changing our curriculum to be this and this. That's which has to be subjected to the accreditation procedures of the Medical and Mental Council of Nigeria and also the National University Commission. When it is accepted, then it becomes the norm and, you know, make the products of what schools eligible. Now, the problem with the online school is not that it is not acceptable or that it's not practiced elsewhere in the world. It is. And the COVID-19 pandemic has proven to us that there's a lot that we can achieve by embracing this mode of education. But if a real part of the curriculum before the war then it falls short of that which was recognized. This is the position that MDCN is. Okay, so you cannot say, okay, for instance, in Nigeria now, there's currently an after strike. So you cannot say in the absence of strike, you can move with different mode and use it to compensate to make up for lost time. It doesn't fly. That is the position that MDCN is and that is what the students need to recognize. Having said this, I think that there's an opportunity for the students or graduates now call them to interface with the MDCN to define what is it that can be done at this point to remediate the shortcoming they have suffered on account of the war that can be done in Nigeria here or elsewhere. But once that is defined, you will not have a path to go because I don't support myself leaving them hanging due to a situation that is no part of their situation in which they are equally victims. All right. So I think that a way forward that can only be found in consultation and negotiation with the medical and dental council of Nigeria following the extant rules and regulation governing medical essential in Nigeria. Doc, some of the students, Ukrainian returning students have also said that there's a history of victimization of students who study abroad in the country from Nigeria, especially in Ukraine because this were the experiences. And they're saying that even though their predecessors have gone through the Ukrainian education system, the medical schools there know that when they come back to Nigeria, they're not allowed to proceed straight to get the license. They are made to undergo a one-year compulsory internship. And they are pointing to that as evidence of their unfair treatment by the medical and dental council of Nigeria. What do you say to that? Yeah. Doc, can you hear me please? All right. We seem to have a frozen network connection, but it's quite an interesting one. I think it's important we have our guest tonight this morning because he is a former chairman of the medical and dental council of Nigeria. Doc, are you back? Can you hear me please? Yes, I can hear you. Go ahead. Okay. So I'm saying that some of these Ukrainian students or, you know, returning Nigerian students from Ukraine who have been complaining are saying that their predecessors, those who were ahead of them each time they come back to Nigeria, they're not allowed to get the license immediately. They're made to undergo one-year compulsory internship before being given opportunity to get to become licensed. And they're pointing to that as evidence of their unfair treatment by the medical and dental council of Nigeria simply because they studied abroad. So Phil has been taken out on them. What do you say to that? Okay. I mean, this is pointing to maybe they're trying to insinuate that they're being treated unfairly compared to their counterparts, their fellow countrymen who are schooled in or who study in Nigeria. May I say I remember from my childhood. Doctor, are you there please? Prof, are you there, sir? Yes, I can hear you. Okay. All right. I can hear you. Okay. Prof, did you get the question please? Yeah, are you talking about some kind of... The one-year compulsory internship, yes, which is Ukrainian students are made to undergo when they return to the country. It is saying it's unfair and that is evidence of their unfair treatment by the MDCN. Okay. Well, I think it is more an issue of perception. It may not be entirely wrong, but I want to speak from my own personal experience because I've had a number of the students that are graduates rather from Ukrainian institutions. And what I perceive, there's a difference in training, which is entirely understandable. Okay. Their mode of instruction is not exactly the same as our mode of instruction here. These patterns are not exactly the same. And the emphasis, you know, in terms of training, there are differences. Okay. And so what you find out is that in the past, when some of them come back to practice in Nigeria, there are some observed deficiencies, which I don't think should be interpreted to mean that they are not properly trained, they are. And it can also not be interpreted to mean that they're not good enough, because some of them have gone on to be very, very excellent and fantastic doctors. Okay. So I think that it is on the basis of some of these deficiencies that led to a situation where there were, a provision was made for some postings. You know, they spend some time in some Nigerian teaching hospital for knowledge to acquire some skills that may not have been part of their training. And also to get to understand the peculiarities of the Nigerian practice and disease pattern and approach to therapy, you know, after which many of them went on to do very well. So I, if there's that kind of perception, I don't think it's a warranted that kind of negative perception, because like I said, a lot of them have gone on to be very, very fantastic doctors. And also let us know that, you know, even their training abroad is not due to any part of theirs. It's not really that they're not qualified to study medicine in Nigeria. The reason why they didn't study medicine in Nigeria is because there was no space. Okay. But they are adequately qualified. All right. So I think that they are actually feeling a very, very essential manpower gap, you know, because every country is trying to see how it can increase. It's a number of doctors and I feel that the number we're putting there in Nigeria is not adequate. And if we have the benefit of this foreign training, medical graduation, boost up, I think it's entirely something we should embrace. All right. Interesting. Very interesting having you on the program this morning, Professor Keno Zoino. But just before we go, a quick one here, because it's still part of the discourse, Professor. The Nigerian Association Medical Association is saying that the persistent brain drain by doctors is depleting the country's medical care experts and taking the country further away from recommended number of doctors. And so we have been reduced to the ratio patient doctor ratio one is to 600 from one is to 600 to one is to 5000. And that's because we have less hands. We're lucky to show your thoughts on that. Well, what enemy scene is totally true? In the past two, three years, I myself have been shouting myself hoss, you know, trying to draw attention, not just the government, but the entire country, the ordinary Nigeria and the citizenship, we have a massive problem of brain brain in the health sector. I'm not just doctors, but nurses. And I'm hearing recently now information, communication technology and all that. Okay, it is a problem because we work in the hospitals, we were the two, we see our colleagues living every day. There is no week that I don't have requests for my doctor or reference letter for the foreign job, you know, usually in the U.K. America and sometimes in the Middle East. Now, in my perception, the major driver is economy, because the remuneration these people are offered is massive and in foreign exchange, you know, and I don't see our system competing favorably, you know, but I think the major, major issue here is that judging from the utterances of government officials, it does not appear to have been recognized as a problem in government circles. And this is really unfortunate because you cannot begin to advance a political movement that has not been identified or accepted as dignity. So I think that if the time comes where we truly recognize that we have a problem, then we can begin to ask questions and profile solutions. But as for the brain brain phenomenon, it is going on and it is very massive, the health sector. All right, Prof, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure having you on the program this morning and a fantastic analysis from you. I always look forward to having someone of your caliber on the program in the future. I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. It's a great honor. All right, all right. And that's the size of our package. It's been quite an interesting one. Of course, an interesting analysis. Merci. Well, if you missed out on any part of it, it's okay to follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to our YouTube channel at Plus TV Africa and Plus TV Africa Lifestyle. You have all of the contents been upload that there for your pleasure. My name is Messi Popo. Do you have a fantastic day? And my name is Kofi Bartels. Good morning.