 Hey, everyone. Welcome to GoDaddy's Make No Apologies Roundtable Discussion for Women's History Month. My name is Crystal Borsma, and I'm on the brand team here at GoDaddy and part of the group who brought the Make No Apologies campaign to life. We have some amazing women here today to help tackle this topic of women over apologizing and what does it do to our credibility and our confidence? Particularly in business. So I'm going to let each woman go around and tell us a little bit about themselves. Maybe if they're guilty of this and also if this campaign resonated with them and why. Just to clarify a little insight behind the campaign. So there's sort of those like small sorry's that women tend to say throughout the day. And then there's also kind of more deeper, liberate meaningful apologies. So this is really about those small sorry's and how they can undermine us whether again in business and how when we're trying to achieve our dreams kind of that. Especially think about emails and conference calls and meetings when you're sorry to interrupt, sorry to bother you. Sorry, sorry, sorry. And those do compound over time. And so we're going to have a little chat about what does that mean? Why do we do that? And what are sort of the repercussions of it? So let's start with Elohim if you want to introduce yourself and just tell us a little bit about you. Hi, my name is Elohim. I am a singer, producer, one woman show musician. I have spent the last few years touring and creating music and a big part of what I do is sharing my journey with my struggles with my own mental health. And it's interesting the thought behind the whole sorry thing is like I feel like I had to apologize so many times for you know having a panic attack or having really bad anxiety or not being able to do something because of my anxiety and and I try to it's this kind of sparked inspiration of me to remind you know the people who I talk to all the time like you don't need to apologize for not being okay or for needing a day to just be with yourself and be at home and take care of yourself like you don't need to apologize for that. So this actually really inspired me as well and you know, I feel like from a young age I've been apologizing and maybe it's like being a little sister to a big brother and like always like oh sorry, sorry, sorry. And so I I love this. This inspired me and now it's something that I'm working on. Awesome. How about you Marcella? You're next on the screen for me. Hello everyone. My name is Marcella. I am a fashion designer. I love creating custom clothing for women. You guys inspire me a lot. So I also have kids. I have three teenagers well an adult and two teenagers and that's about it for now. Okay, how about you Esther? Hi everyone. My name is Esther Choi. I'm a chef and uh entrepreneur. I have uh four restaurants in New York and just working on la expansion now and um this campaign means a lot to me because a lot of my management is all females and a lot of what I do is about kind of leading this kind of movement in hospitality for women to you know become leaders and I think that um not only me but a lot of women struggle with confidence in general and especially in management positions or as you know a leader or figure it's always something that I struggle with my entire career and I see women struggle with every day and I think that has a lot to do with um, I mean it ties with apologizing all the time and um, I I always live in this like guilt bubble. I'm always I feel really bad all the time and I I don't know why and I think that has a lot to do with confidence and um just talking about it and even you know trying to fix those like little tiny apologies or feeling guilty about you know even taking And a day off or an hour for myself or even when I'm starting an email and it always starts with like Oh, hey, I'm so sorry, but and it seems casual, but it's it's actually just a part of um this whole like confidence building thing so I love this campaign and I hope to You know learn and be inspired by you all Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, it will get into that. It seems casual, but is it really so Lynn, how about you you're next on my screen? Sure. I'm Lynn Slater. I'm also known as the accidental icon um For most of my career. I was a social worker and professor of social welfare And at the age of 61 I started a fashion blog and it somehow Which I still have yet to figure out, but it became Rather large and so I transitioned from becoming a professor to an entrepreneur and so um one of One thing I want to share with all of you is that one of The things that you can look forward to About being older is at some point you just stop caring what anyone thinks about what you say or do And so it's a very liberating um time of life But when I was younger There were so many mixed messages about Women being assertive about women being smart Um that relate to this I'm sorry um theme of the campaign for example, you know Be really smart, but don't be a know-it-all And so there was always a flip side to the be confident But don't make other people feel bad while you're doing it So I think it took me a long time And I can talk more about that later um to get to the point where I I don't apologize for anything that um I have no control over Yeah, I look forward to hearing more about that for sure and counting down the days to when I get there Um, Maya, why don't you tell everyone a little bit about yourself? My name is Maya Penn. I'm a 21 year old environmental activist I'm the founder and CEO of Maya's ideas, which is a sustainable fashion company that I started in 2008 when I was just eight years old I'm also a sustainability consultant. I've worked with small businesses and startups working 500 companies and everything between and I'm also a Simon and Schuster author and an animator and filmmaker as well I really love this topic because you know, I'm somebody who grew up with you know mom who's very intentional about instilling that kind of unapologetic spirit in me And you know, I I think that despite that, you know, I've still kind of you know, felt in many points in my life Afraid to take up space and so, you know, I'm like, it's really interesting to see how you know, like Through the the generation like my mom has tried to you know instill in me You know to be confident to you know, you don't have to apologize for every little thing like what we're talking about Um, and I've really appreciated her being that support But at the same time, you know, when you get in certain situations, I think that women we often feel like You know, we are just taking up too much space or too much room in a conversation or You know, even when we're not and so we have to make ourselves small again You know just so we don't offend anybody or you know, we don't stand out too much And so, you know, this is something that it's it's really interesting to analyze. Is this like something that's just part of A personality or is this something deeper? Is it because of you know sexism and misogyny? You know and among you know other types of layers as well And so it's something that I've always been really passionate about and I've really really you know through the years kind of stepped into Not kind of uh really owning like taking up that space and really owning You know, I think really owning Kind of an unapologetic spirit in everything that I do Because it's something I've always practiced But it took me a while to really step into it and get used to it and feel like this is me like I can just as Maya This is how I am and want to show up, you know with other people So, yeah, I'm really appreciate this conversation Awesome. Thank you So I just I have a lot of different questions that we can dig into I'm happy to kind of pick people or you feel really strongly that there's something You want to share feel free to kind of chime in I think the first thing I kind of want to dig into is I've heard already this idea Of confidence or lack of confidence when it comes to these apologies Is that is that what we think is that play here? Is that and then also Lynn you kind of touched on this, you know Middle ground so so to speak of like be good, but not too good be this but not too, you know too far So I'm curious and why why do you think we say these little apologies? What's really at play here? Is it a confidence thing? Is it a fear of taking up too much space and Do you are there any men in your life that apologize a lot like this and You know, is it different for them? So if anyone wants to weigh in or I'm happy to pick someone we can go either way I think that confidence definitely has to do with it because It's almost like this step back you do something and then it's like, oh wait, what if what if I look stupid or You know, oh, I'm embarrassed. So. Oh, sorry I I just did that and I really love what Lynn said about not apologizing Apologizing for something that you're not in control of I love that that really resonated with me and I really truly do think it is a confidence thing and just kind of like Taking that step back and saying I'm I'm sorry. I I guess I messed up, you know, so so I definitely think it's a confidence Issue like our women punished for being too confident. Whereas maybe men aren't um Definitely, I mean that's that's a whole whole Huge conversation and being in music You know, I didn't I didn't really understand the conversation until I really started going out doing shows and playing festivals and And you know, really listening to radio and counting Okay, how many women are they playing on like these alternative stations? And I remember this one day I we had a long drive and it was two hours and I counted one female in two hours on like a very popular alternative station And I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. I'm right here like play my music. You can have it for free I don't care, you know um But yeah, there is there is like there is this weird thing where it's Attractive, you know when a guy is kind of cocky But then if a girl it shows confidence at times it, you know, it is a really beautiful thing when you're confident but you know, of course people change the narrative and you know, maybe I've heard so many people say that female artists Or mean are Divas and it's like I'm sure that they're Not doing anything different than the men in these positions. It's just taken differently also Women have such a brighter light on them because it's like you need to look perfect Your body needs to be perfect whereas men they could show up with just like looking raggedy. It's like, oh, that's sexy, you know So so no wonder women are like, well, I need my lighting perfect I need this perfect, you know, and that's not that's not being high maintenance. That's just kind of the way things are so And I I think that that's okay, and you shouldn't have to apologize for you know being comfortable too Right. There's so many. Yeah to your point. There's so many standards that we have to hit at once That's why we apologize all the time because there's this like running checklist In our head. My eyes saw you nodding and clapping. Do you have something to add? Yeah, no, I completely agree with everything elmine just said I think that too You know what she just spoke to is how we hold women to certain standards that we just don't hold Men to like society does and because of that, you know, women just get less chances women get less you know space to You know to ask a question or be awkward or you know, or you know, take a extra step And if it doesn't really work if you know, it's a mistake then, you know, like There's more judgment put put on women So I think that the constant apologizing is like, you know, I think a lot of women are in fear That they you know will be punished not only for being confident, but just making normal human missteps or mistakes that literally everybody does that most men can get away with and you know, it's You know sometimes even being You know, you know men have opportunity to just kind of show up and just completely be their authentic cells without any sort of judgment and then women a lot of times do not get that same opportunity and you know also too I really think that On top of all of that You kind of have this perception of what you know, elmine just spoke to You know women are kind of taught to be nice and not to be confident, you know, just be nice be pleasant you make sure you are liked and Like the ultimate fear for a lot of women in society is to be disliked because that can you know cost you in many ways in in jobs and Relationships and not dislike for being a bad person or doing anything wrong But just you know being honest or being confident or speaking your mind You know can get you punished unfairly in many Social and professional situations So I think that because you know and this starts so young like you teach girls to just be kind and be nice and be sweet And then like that's the the ultimate goal is to just be liked by everybody and it's like you know in this kind of Very the society is built on misogyny It's going to be very difficult to advocate for yourself while also being liked as a woman So I think that there's there's a lot of layers to that But that's another reason why you know when you tend to apologize and minimize because You know and it hurts them in the long term You know because not being able to advocate for yourself is Makes a lot of situations very difficult to get through whether it be personally or professionally Yeah, yeah. No as you're talking. I was thinking how much of this do we do to one another? You know, it's certainly not a big one. You know, yeah Men necessarily at all. I think we you know, we certainly Um set a standard that we in our lives and people mirror that or maybe we're more Outright with it. But as you were talking, that's what I was thinking about Marcella. You were not in your head That I want to share Is that It's not about Being unapologetic in general because I understand that men one Because when I was expressing this unapologetic side to one of my friends, which is a male He said that's awesome. I should start doing that and then for a moment. I thought Yeah, but the point is that you guys have been taking advantage for a long time So it's about our time to be unapologetic not for you to exercise this it's for So, uh, that's why I was nodding because it's it's about us as women to empower each other and to Stand up and say men you hire time you had and I'm a mom of all men So and I have all brothers. So, you know, it's something that it's like I know this is for universal but for now, that's not the point So, yeah That's awesome. Esther, I'd be curious because you're in the restaurant industry surrounded by men What are your thoughts on this? I do think that people tend to Apologize a lot when they're self-conscious about Either themselves or their idea or even if you're like late a little bit You're you know, you're you're feeling vulnerable and you're feeling like a little self-conscious like oh, I'm so sorry I'm so sorry and that can somehow like covers it up but I feel like that it has a lot to do with just you know being confident in general and um, when you're constantly feeling self-conscious, then you're constantly Apologizing and saying these small sorry's and then it's it's kind of it throws back to like, oh, you're not being confident in yourself and that's why You are apologizing, right? So it's this whole circle and I just feel that um confidence in Women is always lacking. Like why are we feeling self-conscious all the time and um, that's the same in My industry where you know, obviously there are a lot of men that lead kitchens, but um with with my management team What I always like to preach is Hey feel Confident like I know that you're surrounded by men here But it's okay because you're a badass like you know how to do this Probably better than any of these guys here But why can't you just like say it or assert yourself and it's literally about just even Saying what's on your mind which women tend to lack at times. So um that for me that it's always about like coaching and even Sometimes I feel very self-conscious to say something or um, I want to you know, say something to my male counterparts That might be you know offensive or to them or just you know getting my point across But at a certain point you just have to do it and just be like what you know what I'm putting it out there At least I said what's on my mind and I'm very transparent and then we can move forward And you know I I just feel like that confidence building and you know It's sometimes a skill like you have to just consciously always think about it Like I can do this. I can do this. I can do this the amount of times I say that to myself is It's extreme like from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed I'm like constantly Exercising that in my mind so that I can feel and stay confident all the time and not apologize And I'm still guilty of that like the last email I wrote. I realized the first sentence. I was like, hey, I'm so sorry Why I'm really trying to exercise that like one other exercise that I keep Trying to do is like also being able to say no Uh, I think that's really difficult too and as a woman. It's like, um Why do I have to say yes all the time to like everything and now I'm just like going crazy because I can't even get it done So, um, that's another thing that I'm really trying to implement into, um You know my management group and training them like how to say no How to stop up apologizing things like this. I think it all has, um A lot of similarities. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I've read a thing that said no is a complete sentence So much it is it is Okay, land. I'm coming to you because I'm so Interested to hear some advice or some when does this go away? Does it go away? How does it go away? What can we do? Well, I I can tell you that We're systematically trained Throughout our lives to be this way And there are certain, um Things about the way we're educated and about professional education that actually reinforces those things and When I learned to be assertive and direct and clear Was when I was teaching in our school of law and working with lawyers And in my profession as a social worker, you know, you have to tell somebody five good things about themselves before you can make a critique Everything it's about strengths and With the law in the way that the law school runs It's just very direct Like they challenge everything you say And if you have personal feelings about it, they're shocked because this is just how people communicate You know, you say what you mean And you don't have to give people a lot of compliments before you um Say something that is a critique especially about making something better and sadly Speaking to a point you made earlier most of the time When I've been called out in my life about being direct about Not apologizing has been by other women Who I think I make anxious because I'm not following the rule And so I think that We have to really support each other in this And it's a habit you were trained into it and the good news about habits Is that if you really want to break it We have so much knowledge about how you develop a new habit or how you break a habit And so you can do it If you really want to And the other thing I want to say is I think I think we have to make a distinction between this kind of obsessive apologizing and when we are Apologizing because we have a deep sense of empathy for someone else And that we have an understanding that maybe our behavior affected them in some way And so I don't want to lose that part of me, right And in fact rather than telling men to step aside, I would rather say to them You know, you should really be more like us And think more about how your behavior impacts other people because I'll put on my professor cap for a moment. The research does show That women have a lower threshold Of tolerating behaviors that you should apologize for than men do So there's a lot of things that we think oh, you know, I accidentally bumped into you. I'm sorry A man that's like not even on his radar as something Even remotely to apologize for so That would be my message to them Maybe you could learn some things Right through watching our behavior In how we are caring and thoughtful of other people I want to I want to add with what Lynn just said because I totally agree with her in the sense that We as women we are responsible to inspire and empower each other as women as sisters because um When I got this campaign from you guys I start thinking how can I take this Further than than just my an apologetic side. So I had this idea of Reaching out to my circle of women my my community, which is my my family friends and also my colleagues and my clients And I asked them. What are you not sorry for and the moment that many women Read this um letter of mine and and it's it's just like planting a seed that it wasn't there That maybe I used to say sorry to my kids for example Sorry, but I'm gonna work because I love working But now it's like, you know what I'm not sorry You know, so all these women that I've reached out I noticed that it's like a ripple effect because you know It's not only for us because sometimes you live confident or you live your life thinking I'm doing whatever I want and I'm not going to follow any rules But the the thing is it's up to us to You know practice this and to own it and to also pass it because if we just keep it to ourselves The world is not going to change. So you actually need to join forces and to you know, shoot all these Information and all these insights to other women, especially, you know, so we can change this for real So I totally agree with Lynn that that is our Responsibility to reach out to our own circle of women so they can also pass that to their own circle of women You know and say hey, no, sorry Why? So that makes me think about how yeah, how can we make change right so Lynn touched on it. Marcella. You've touched on it I mean all of us I think we can do small things internally But then we can also support each other externally. Are there other thoughts of ways that I mean this is to your point Lynn, this is systemic. This isn't going anywhere anytime soon I'm encouraged that it goes away with time. Hopefully as life experience and confidence grow But what are things we can do now to make a difference? To kind of improve this You know, I'm somebody who works with you know, other young female entrepreneurs and You know other young girls will also want to start their own nonprofits or you know be activists and You know, I like I do a lot of work either just reaching out or when they reach out to me, you know I give them advice or even just mentoring as well And I I tend to focus in on some of those same areas around Confidence too because no matter what you're going to be doing in life You have to have some sort of a you know, some sort of I guess a Back up to to kind of fall back on like even within yourself You need to be able to rely on yourself To advocate for yourself and that's something that's not easy especially like as lin said when this has been trained into women and girls for literally centuries You know, this is something that takes practice and it's really like a skill set and a tool That you kind of have to use as self-advocation And being able to really voice your authentic view on something without having to you know sprinkling those small size to make it more palatable That is a skill that you know, it has you have to develop and it doesn't always have to be based on your personality I'm somebody who is very You know introverted And I have had to teach myself how to communicate Exactly what I'm thinking and feeling effectively in a way that is beneficial Not just for myself But whether it's a project that I'm working on that I feel like you know, I have this great idea But I don't know how everybody else is going to feel about it. You know, just go for it And so my advice too to all the Women and you know, even men that are watching that are also Small business owners or you know, what have you you know reach back and support the other You know upcoming women and girls In your life in your circle Who could need your help or your support or you know, just a word of advice or encouragement To continue to be confident in themselves as well I think that We really you know as women we live In a way a lot of ways we live in a lot of ways to I guess accommodate men, you know very often and that shows up in so many little ways Whether it's the small sorry's or you know, even sometimes As you know as they're kind of touched on kind of beating yourself up because you're not as confident as you want to be And maybe you're basing that on like the male standards of confidence, which aren't always great example and you know, even to Just like little things like I've seen seeing a lot of women posting videos about how they have to delete All of the exclamation points from their emails to sound more like how their male counterparts type And I'm like I do that too. It's like why can't I put 500 exclamation points in my email? I want you to hear how excited I am about this I still do that on every email I put Yes, I want I'm so glad like that's the thing like it's just little stuff like we have to stop filtering ourselves and our true personalities And whether that is we have to build our confidence or we have to let our true emotions show and be You know proud of being more emotional and excited whether that's quote-unquote Unprofessional, you know, we have to figure out what does professional really mean? Is that just built on toxic masculinity? You know, like do we need to rework these definitions? So there's so much to unpack, but I really I always reach back Yeah, I always just reach back and you know support and give back to the The young like women and girls in my life because I see myself in them, you know I think also as women we're like afraid of being called crazy And I I feel like that's something that Is used towards women at least in my life time I feel like that's been that word crazy has been used more towards women that it has to men um And it's usually a man saying but you know, I've heard women say it about other women as well and I think To what Maya was saying. I mean just unapologetically being ourselves and Being I don't know. I feel like I'm my best when I'm able to be free and be my wild self and You know the people that are gonna call me crazy aren't really I don't need to have those people in my life Right, right and you being your authentic wild self may inspire someone else to do it too and feel 100% and you know me speaking out about my mental health and not not only just You know talking about it kind of sugarcoating it but really like showing it and talking about it in like it's It's not pretty at times. It's horrible and you know being able to talk about that You know, there are people in the music industry that are like don't do that That's gonna ruin, you know any chance of having a career or you know, whatever and It's really cool because I feel like I have inspired other, you know, it doesn't gender doesn't really matter but You know inspired other human beings to you know, feel confident enough to you know, talk to Their parents for the first time and say, you know, I have depression And and I think you know being a woman sometimes it feels harder But even for men, I mean, it's really hard to talk about that stuff. And so yeah being you know, I I think We just need to Go out there to do what we do and do it in the best possible way and how we You authentically want to do it and that will just you know inspire Other human beings and I'm already inspired by everybody here. It's so crazy Crazy, I said crazy sorry In a good way a good crazy I mean, it's okay to be crazy, I think I agree with Marcella I think too when you are a woman who has gotten to that confident point That social media showing that true authentic self can really Have a very huge ripple effect and I have to use my own experience um as an example because I came on to the fashion scene not knowing anybody I do no retouching I'm an older woman. Um the person who Fashion appears least likely to You know put in the mix but because I had confidence I was able to project this image that if I could just share like the thousands literally of emails and dms I get from younger and older women about how um how I Help them to be who they really want to be Regardless of what the rules say about what you should wear once you're 60 or whatever or whatever or whatever and I think that It's been an unanticipated benefit for me To hear from all of these women from younger women who say You're making me afraid not to be old that I can reinvent myself. I can have an exciting life I can you know, my life is not going to be over when I'm 40 And from older women my age For them to say, okay, I'm going to do that thing. I never did I'm going I don't care now. I'm going to just go do it and I'm going to have that confidence and so I think Putting yourself out as a role model When you have been able to do it particularly if you use visuals and creativity You can really make a difference and engage more people because that's how people are engaged today They're not engaged through lectures as a professor. I could tell you that So I think how do we get people in the conversation? I agree. I I I think that being vulnerable and humble goes way far than faking it until you make it And also I wanted to add with Maya that I got into this exercise that I did with my women I got one that says that she was introverted and and she felt the need to apologize because of who she was all the time I'm sorry. I'm shy. I'm sorry. I cried too much. I'm sorry this. I'm sorry that So many things, you know, so I think it comes to personality that you feel sorry for being you and that's not okay and also something else that um came to me um When I'm hearing everyone That we need to take credit that being entrepreneur and this goes for men and women That requires a lot of confidence even even if you don't think you have it just by Throwing your ideas and making it that says that you do don't I mean you don't care about Just making your dream come true. So I think for me, that's confidence I love that. Yeah, it's definitely inspiring others which all of you do um through your work every day and um I can't believe how much time has already gone by so quickly And uh, I want to make sure that if anyone had anything else they wanted to share that they had the chance I I do just want to ask um Add something very quick because um in the question said that if it was an american thing Oh, yeah, do we think this over apologizing is an american thing? And I whoever is listening it is not I am Mexican and the culture do Make you this small And it makes you feel that because of being a woman is your responsibility to clean the dishes to do this So many things and then you have to apologize for not doing it or for not making dinner or for many things So it's not an american thing Against the global phenomenon awesome But no, it's interesting to hear how you know how it plays out in the rest of the world too I just wanted to also add that there are I kind of mentioned this in the very beginning There are also other layers that impact every woman's experience You know my experience as a black woman in this space You know, that's even more intensified because black women are often characterized as being you know Angry or sassy or you know, like whatever these stereotypes are and so anytime we you know do You know, we don't apologize when it's not necessary. We advocate for ourselves or we're confident You know, it can come off to a lot of you know, our white counterparts too as being you know, aggressive And so this is like there's you also have to tackle of course the the gender like element But then there's also a lot of elements, you know of race You know among so many other things of age, you know ageism on you know for older and younger women So all of that definitely impacts every woman's unique and individual experience. And so I think that a huge like important pillar like a building a better Future for women to feel confident and to express themselves to kind of really give women the space to speak about all these different unique facets and You know figure out how we can uplift each other and still see How we're impacted differently as well. I love that. Thank you for sharing Thank you guys so much for joining me and being so honest In your stories and in your leadership, we appreciate you so much and happy women's history month