 So we're gonna introduce this again so you know who everyone is. I'm Michael Walker. This is the fix We're discussing freedom of movement and Corbin's comments yesterday on Andrew Marr, which was specifically him, I was just listening to those voices to see if it's to tell me the sounds not there again, but I think the sound is here it was Corbin talking about how Labour will be abandoning freedom of movement and specifically talking about the importation or his words the importation of workforces from Eastern Europe to Damage labour conditions in the UK. That's what we'll be discussing tonight to do so. I'm delighted to be joined by Zoe Gardner who's from another Europe and a PhD student who's going to introduce yourself again this time with the sound on Yeah, so I'm with another Europe as possible who we campaigned for a left-wing Romain vote and now we're trying to influence the Brexit negotiations and I'm particularly interested in Defending freedom of movement within that and I'm studying for a PhD about European refugee policy and the impact that civil society groups can have You've had you've had now five minutes to sum it up in two sentences I'm joking. I'm being harsh. I'm being harsh. Come on. I was joined by Petros Elia Who is General Secretary of the United Voices of the World and Independent Union Do you want to talk a bit about your trade union and the work you do? Yeah, so UVW is a trade union which organizes and represents some of the most unrepresented and unorganized workers in the labour market in London and Almost all of our members are migrant workers the work in and the service sector and which is by definition a low-paid sector So low-paid migrant workers are basically who we're representing and organizing brilliant What's the job about Eddie Dempsey from the RMT tell us a bit about your union what you do with them Yeah, so the RMT is an industrial trade union represents everybody in the transport industry and also includes the maritime sector and offshore Gas and energy sector I'm on a national executive my job's a trade driver I've been elected to represent my members nationally in three years conducting strikes and all the rest of it making those decisions And when my three years is up I'll go back to my job on the railway Antonio Bright, I'm not actually sure if the audience heard you again, but we're going to repeat again if it's repetitive Sorry, you've just come from a demo and you're an organizer with movement for justice. Yeah. Yeah movement for justice by any means necessary Do you want to tell us about tell us about the demo you were on or that's still going on and tell us about movement for justice? Yeah, the demo was for another young guy who died in police hands just a day or two ago in Hackney Stoke Newton police notorious police force, I think And that yeah, that's like people have just been marching through the streets now Yeah, and and yeah movement for justice. So we're about building a movement that's fighting for real progress real equality and justice And that means there's a central question of fighting racism and fighting for immigrant rights at the heart of anything that's fighting for progress So that's why we prioritized that brilliant And yeah, the audience might know movement for justice by the demos they organize at Yarlswood, which are getting bigger and bigger and bigger Yarlswood's Women's Detention Center. Yeah on the outskirts of London. I can't remember exactly In the farmland of Bedfordshire To set us off I'm going to read out some of Corbyn's answers So we can talk not so much in abstract terms but about what was actually said So Andrew Ma is asking him What made it go for He's asking him about freedom of movement. We're going to go for the big ones So he's saying we're not going to have freedom of movement anymore. Brexit means we leave the single market leaving the single market means we don't have freedom of movement specifically he says Migration would be a managed thing on the basis of the work required There would be european workers working in britain and british workers working in europe as there are at the moment What there wouldn't be is the wholesale Importation of underpaid workers from central europe in order to destroy conditions particularly in the construction industry Then Andrew Ma asks So so how do you stop that under your plan? How do you stop that happening? Corbyn says you prevent agencies recruiting wholesale workforces that like He's got a funny way of speaking sometimes hasn't he you advertise for jobs in the locality first Uh And then he says listen They would come here on the basis of the jobs available and their skill sets to go with it What we wouldn't allow is the practice by agencies who are quite disgraceful the way they do it Recruit workforce load paid and bring them here in order to dismiss An existing workforce in the construction industry then pay them low wages It's appalling and the only people who benefit are the companies Uh, we'll leave it there. I'm going to go one by one through through the panel And ask how reasonable you think those statements were is there an element of truth in it? Is it I don't know. I won't Guess your answers zoe uh, well, I think what was um almost funny if it wasn't so Sad was how ma really exposed the inconsistencies and uh, the sort of lack of a real credible Proposal here in terms of immigration policy from labor. They don't have anything concrete To propose as an alternative to freedom of movement, which they say has to go just because it just does Um, but what he's talking about here. He's very confused. Um, there's kind of language like specifically singling out A group that has been racialized and abused throughout the last couple of years of immigrants of Saying that about you know the wholesale import of uh central europeans like that kind of language I would find genuinely quite shocking if therese may was starting to do that. She doesn't single out particular groups even though her position on immigration has traditionally been far worse than corbin's so It's absolutely appalling language that quote could very easily be from Nigel Farage. I'd have believed it No problem that kind of language is contributing to The demonization the divisions in our workforce and and that as anybody who um, you know Has has a left-wing or collective workers? Instinct in our heart knows if you divide the workforce if you allow one group to be Exploited against right then you weaken the entire Workforce whether that's british or whatever so corbin should be standing up for the rights of all workers Best way to do that is through a freedom of movement because it prevents Employers from being able to discriminate betroth so I do believe I mean I only just read this this quote just before I came Came here this evening about 10 minutes ago and I do believe My first reading of it is it was it was probably well-intentioned and it is It is sort of intuitive and I think and I think you hold the whole problem with the debate around Migrants and the effect they have on wages and and and the workforce generally is it to argue against it is sort of counter-intuitive Sort of the natural position is obviously if there's a huge supply of labor Then that's clearly going to have an effect on on on workers wages Their bargaining power and and all the rest of it bottom is it doesn't stack up to the facts So that the facts would completely contradict that that that seemingly intuitive position And what is clear is that migrant workers have zero effect on wages have zero effect on trade union density have zero effect On on workers rights and protections and in fact those things are obviously won by workers themselves organizing and fighting for them and you know just without sort of going down the sort of Sort of economic sort of route of looking at the the correlation is clear that a positive correlation between migration and wages There are positive correlations between migration and workers rights And so, you know, it's simply it's demonstrably not the case that Work is coming from the EU or from any other country has any effect whatsoever on rights and protections And the problem is actually the statutory minimum protections afforded to all workers are so low. They're so poor They're so pernicious. Those are the problems. So if we want to Help workers protect workers against Abuses not only abuses which which contravene the law but abuses which actually comply with the law and that is the public The law is so inadequate. The law is so Unfair and so exploitative It allows for so many abuses abuses and different forms of exploitation to take place The employers don't need to be unscrupulous By non by not complying with the law They to be unscrupulous all you have to do is merely comply with the law because because the floor is set So low and so it's simply not the case And there's no evidence to to to back up that statement that Construction workers or any other group of workers coming from any other country in the EU or from outside the EU will negatively impact on Workers rights as I said just to finish it's it's the it's unorganized workers which bring down wages and which Remove protections. It's not migrant workers any Yeah, well, I think it's a bit strange that people are criticising Corbyn from a from a supposedly left-wing perspective on his comments Because if you listen to what the guy was actually saying he's talking about protecting workers from exploitation He's not he's not attacking anyone And uh, you know, if you think if you think of it in this way The first international was set up with Karl Marx to prevent european employers bringing scab labour into britain undermining trade union organization here So it's precisely in those terms that Corbyn was speaking And I think what this is adding this narrative that he's attacking migrants is actually something a bit more sinister I think what it is is a smokescreen for pro-eu sentiment And it lines up very neatly with the right-wing part of the labour party. We're trying to undermine Corbyn's position On brexit, which is hugely popular with a working class in this country It's not a racist position anything he said and what he's talking about is protecting workers from exploitation So I think all of this All of this sort of um outrage about you know, he's attacking migrants. He's a racist comments I think there's just a left-wing covering for quite a right-wing argument and plays into the hands of right-wing the labour party And it shouldn't be supported and I think most workers in the country ain't going to fall for it either Antonia I mean Yeah, it's it's The fundamentally the achilles heel for the left Is the question of racism if you do not fight racism and that means explicitly Taking the side of the people who face racism and xenophobia and attacks then You divide the very people who ought to be allies Like the very means of fighting for anything progressive is undermined and it's undercar Uh the working class in britain consistently and labour positions have undercar The fight for workers rights consistently because they don't Because they just fail On the question of anti racism anti racism isn't just when you're anti fascist It means that you're standing up you you have to see yourself as equals And at the end of the day Corbyn's position does does attack migrants from central europe for a star I mean, it's not protecting workers rights if it just means protecting british citizens workers rights It's not the same thing It's nationalist it's going in a nationalist direction and it will feed that and so unless there's uh Conscious and explicit fight that is Defending migrant rights and to be quite honest I'm in a trade union. I've been in the trade union a long time And one of the best strikes I've seen was just last week and tomorrow there'll be a strike again for another two weeks Is all migrant workers st. Bart's hospitals all migrant workers working in these outsourced companies The whole point of outsourcing was undercutting and undermining workers You know in public services where the unions have been very strong in the in its history Undercut and undermined outsourcing who is leading the fight who is leading the fight To win real rights to to fight for better conditions in the workplace Um for for different paying conditions to break the back of this privatization That has up till now really um put us in a A dreadful situation if you want to use the word destroyers as Corbyn does what's destroying You know the conditions of the working class, you know those policies which um Are being fought the hardest by migrant workers who face not only The conditions under, you know, like their managements and those corporations that exploit them like super exploit them But have on top of that immigration issues all the time to like make you more vulnerable and bombard you I'm sorry, but we need those workers if we're going to fight for better condition of life in these country in this country We need those people Who can lead and who have not given up on the idea of actually fighting who know what it means to lead a strike It's not one day here and one day there you fight to win You actually fight to win. You have a strategy to win. We need that. That's how you rebuild Corbyn is betraying that What he said betrays Exactly those people and it gives the fake idea that if you're british that somehow you can just get through You can turn a blind eye to the reality of racism the actual reality of it. So I want to Separate two issues as far as it's possible Which is one the effect that freedom of movement has on the structure of the labor market in britain as the role of the trade unions in britain and to the extent to how much Opposition to freedom of movement intersects with racism and or whether whether or not it does because I think there's they're two quite different issues and I think Everyone's quite unclear if I feel I feel unsure about but So to begin with the the question about the labor market so as You've both sort of introduced The idea that Corbyn was seems seems to be expressing and one which does seem Plausible is the idea that Migrant labor is and because we're in the EU. It's not It's not necessary. It's not about giving people british citizenship. It's about people moving here as labor So it's people moving here. They don't get voting rights, but they come here and they're free to work They have local voting rights local voting rights, but it's you don't get british citizenship, right? No, but you're on a path towards it and I think local voting rights are pretty important Let me finish the question right phrase it Okay Uh, yeah, so then the idea is labor is brought in because it's easier to exploit it will accept lower wages is because it's New to the political community is less likely to organize in a trade union And you explicitly talked about the motivation of freedom of movement to be to bring over potential scab labor Yeah So let's start with You ready and I want to ask is because this is a plausible story But I want to ask if there are any places in britain where you've seen this happen. You know, yeah, I've got first-hand experience of it. So one of the biggest uh One of the biggest victories for cleaners in the past 10 years was a strike of mainly migrant cleaners RMT members on the Great Western Railway I started off organizing in when we had six members out of the whole contract And it took about three years of solid organizing to get everyone into the union Every time we put someone up as a local rep. They were victimized and bullied out And eventually through through the course of fighting like that Work has developed their own leaders. There were two women in particular, both of them migrants one from the caribbean One from eastern europe who came forward as leaders once we got those two people in the position We started to take shape on the ground and we won a series of battles there culminating on 40 pay rise We won the living wage in one hit for the first time that had been done anywhere in the country We didn't just win the living wage for those cleaners on that contract We won it for every single contractor that great western railway Employees in any field of operation. So these people were heroes There was a series of other victories we won after that and immediately following that victory Because uh, one of the things that we won out at that was not just an improvement in wages and conditions We also eradicated the use of zero hour contracts Prevented the use of an additional layer of agency labor coming in What they did is they started bringing in workers directly from europe Literally arriving in petting station on the platform to begin under the instruction of some of the managers who uh, I mean How they wanted how they operated on the contractors. They really tried to create Racial divisions within the workers. So in some places you had a group of Somali workers And the supervisory and managerial grades would be mainly Ghananian And that and that would be create a sort of attention In other place it would be mainly sort of west indian or Caribbean or african workers and then attention with some groups from eastern europe And they tried to play those tensions off And so they were bringing in workers directly from bulgaria By bulgarian management who had been spoken to prior about the the conditions that the workforce they are In an attempt to break the the trade union membership So they brought them in deliberately under the impression you're coming here to work And part of what you're doing is helping us eradicate this problem of union membership I mean we got over that eventually, but this is this is how it operates And when people are talking about the free movement of labor, we've got to understand What is in context? It's not This isn't a debate about immigration. This is a debate about a specific Neoliberal policy that is part of the single european act Thatcher single act she loved it and the people who were the architects of it were the european round table of industrialists Which is an invitation only organization and the ceo's are the biggest multinational corporations with headquarters in europe And there's specific reasons for initiating this Single market of labor It's so they've got access to a 60 million strong workforce that they can play workers off of each other And it doesn't operate in isolation The other side of it is the free movement of capital So what they do is the free movement of capital wrecks your economy And then your freedom of movement is just like norman tebbit said on your bike again find work somewhere else And that's and that's where it's not This this posing of it is somehow a great freedom from workers It's not what it's about and no one could tell me the intention of this group this little cabal Of multinational ceo sat around the table and said how can we improve the working conditions for the working class in europe? So all of that is a complete myth as far as i'm concerned That's a specific situation where a job is advertised abroad, right? Yes. What's what's the? European posted workers directive or something. Okay, but i should i should know this already The european posted workers directive is not Um a free movement of people issue it comes under free movement of services So it's it's a completely different issue. Um, obviously it's part of the four freedoms Um, but it's it's a very problematic directive It basically allows you to Send workers temporarily to another european country, but they're employed in the host the home state Um, they have to at least be paid minimum wage conditions in the host country But that's obviously can be lower. So so their employer is in is in is in whatever country Whatever country that they come from. Yeah. Yeah, uh, it's very problematic. Um, and both the commission and the european parliament have Raised the issue that um only having the protections of minimum wage uh has Potentially contributed towards this Phenomenon that i think i think that's actually what you're talking possibly. I don't know the specific instance you you refer to but um, so there is a process of reform and renegotiation of that Directive underway. It's a painfully slow process. The eu is not known for its snappy decisions, but um I mean, do they do they want to so if so we separate into issues one Which is freedom of movement and one which is the postive workers directive It's so important to separate that because the only way you could somehow justify what corbin said Although not his language in which he said it today would be to say, okay Well, maybe he's talking about these issues that do exist with the postive workers directive that do not exist whatsoever with um free movement of people Um, but he didn't make that clear and he actually he's constantly doing this a sort of fudge of like not quite Spelling it all out. Either he doesn't know or he's doing it on purpose to try to keep people like me And keep people like you on board at the same time and all of us voting labor and it's not going to hold So if he's talking about postive workers, he needs to talk about postive workers and explicitly defend freedom of movement for people But he's not doing that. He's trying to fudge and go in between and say that there's a problem here But um, you know, we you know people will still come for work, but um not in this way We're not saying how that is like it's just it's it's a total fudge And it's it's it's based on the fact that they don't have a credible alternative to freedom of movement to propose Because that's directly related. I just want to eddie. Do you think The problem in that situation was the postive workers or do you think the problem was for your movement? No, I mean that's explicitly what the What this part of the single market is set up to do It's explicitly what it's for John Reed when he was interviewed a while ago by andrew neal when he was talking about why they didn't ask for periods exception periods for newly accession states in terms of free freedom of labor It was quite explicit. He said it was for wage restraint That's what they do it for. It's completely the purpose of it. But there's no evidence that it actually does that I'd be inclined to think that's deliberately what they set up for. I mean when During the EU referendum campaign. I remember I did a piece with On the on the telly during the referendum campaign and he had someone representative of the employers organization straight after me And they were saying we must have access to free free movement Otherwise wages are going to go up Lord rose was kicking off if we don't get free movement and labor wages are going to go up because what it comes down to is this We want to control the supply of labor and we want to control capital I believe in a planned economy and I don't believe turning over an entire section of our economy to the market Benefits anyone. I'm a socialist. I want to see workers having democratic control and ownership of our economy And that includes the supply of labor. Why would you let such an important part of the economy Be in the hands of the market in the corporations That should be us Across the whole of Europe putting up like extra borders and basically saying we lock people into where you are Isn't really As I've said, there's a difference between migration Immigration and specifically the freedom of movement, which is going because we're leaving the european union And the single market. I want to stick on the trade unions in the labor market just for now and ask you Petrovs that you you work in trade unions often with migrant workers Is that with people who are coming from the EU or people from outside the EU generally? Right, so there's a large latin american contingent in our union, which uh, we've bought which are spanish citizens that moved from latin america in the 90s and early 2000s And I spent many years there and got spanish citizenship and now they're living in the uk and then there's a lot of um None of you migrant workers as well from the caribbean and various countries in africa as well But I just want to come back on a few points at any moment because I mean I ultimately agree that there are advantages to uh, to freedom freedom freedom of movement to employers Uh, and they will but employers will always try and exploit whatever divisions they can Employers will always try and create divisions, but I don't I just disagree on the on the solution being control I think the solution needs to be to enhance trade union Improve trade union rights, um, you know to get rid of all the anti-trade union legislation to improve Employment rights generally, um, and you know the issue of scab labor coming in and breaking strikes There's been an issue throughout history, hasn't it and and you look at this in parts strike, which I'm glad you mentioned Only because it's amazing. Yeah, and it is a really really inspiring strike And it's actually just beating our record at the LSE for the largest cleanest strike in history Which is another migrant-led uh women migrant-led strike, uh at the LSE much as some parts is And they're bringing in strike breakers from scotland So, you know the issue of there being a sort of a surplus supply of labor is an issue which the labor movement has always had to face Uh, whether that's you know labor from You know that happens to be living here or happens to have been born here or from wherever that they're from And so again, I just don't think these issues are uh, uh, are solved by by by control I think they're solved by you know better organization by you know getting rid of anti-trade union legislation and by improving Employment rights generally and I think therefore if you've got well organized workplaces Then an employer is not going to be able to sack you and replace you if all your colleagues are going to walk out and strike The mind and give you an statement You know and they're not going to be able to you know bring in bring in scab labor if they face You know reprisals and repercussions obviously from a well organized workforce and from a well organized trading movement And the problem is trading movement is just on its knees at the moment and it's just not Trying at all to organize or effectively with exceptions. There's some great and inspiring exceptions such as some parts such as many great disputes the rmt's four and one and such as some of our disputes at uvw But beyond those small and so else and all the rest of it and beyond those small localized exceptions The union movement has abandoned generally low paid migrant workers and that's the problem and so it's the it's the job of the union movement to step up to the fight and to actually take control and And and only that way can we really hope to see improvement in wages and workers rights I think he's got a direct point and it comes in yeah I just wanted to say I don't think we're too far in disagreement with each other because what I'm saying is I do want to control the supplier labor the sort of the flow of capital But also what we've got to work on the principle of is that workers are welcome to come here from other countries On a basis that they're employed on the nationally collective bargaining union rates here That's how you prevent undercutting of wages. So the point of that is You can't really I don't think it's fair to just say look the trade unions are in a pile of shit at the moment And it's hard to organize right because that is true. It's a struggle out there. I appreciate that But unions don't operate in a vacuum So every game we make in a workplace is only temporary We rely on a political movement behind it to make those gains permanent So what we need is national collective bargaining agreements That means a union set a rate for the job and anyone who wants to do that job is paid that rate of pay No underclaim That's one way you can help solve this problem of Of the competition between workers and one other point. I want to make quickly It's it's not directly free movement of labor But a precursor to that is a flags a convenience operation in the maritime industry where Big shipping magnets reflaggers ship to a low wage economy somewhere else And it means they're allowed to employ workers on that ship at that rate of pay So we've got a situation now in british waters and on ships that we organize in the rmt Where we've got filipino workers on two pound thirty eight an hour Now our position is that we should that we don't want filipino's on ships Our position is they should be on proper wages in terms of conditions the same as a british seafarer should be And that's the principle we stand by now col marks when he helped drive the program for the french workers party One of the points in that said that we must be able to prevent Employers importing foreign labor for the purpose of scabbing and that is what it comes down to We want to reduce competition between workers Restrict the control You know we want to control the supply labor and have the employers in competition To pay better wages not the other way around and that doesn't have to be antagonistic or racist But it's idea that if you're opposed to the free movement of labor within the european union Is somehow a principle that can't be that can't be mentioned Then that surely means that you're not in favor of any type of controls on migration at all And if that's your position and you're criticizing corbing for not having a position of just complete open borders That's electoral suicide It's not a good idea in the first place without all of the controls and everything else you've got And i'll just i'll just don't see how people can be doing that and it feeds in To a right-wing attack on corbing at the moment from the likes of chuck ramona and all the rest of it This is a political opportunity of my lifetime and i don't think we should be squandering it by Bringing out these spurious arguments attacking corbing from a position Although it uses left language is completely in my view a right-wing position i want to Ask you antoni because one thing i've been interested in seeing movement of justice on demos is how much Your organization seems to be invested in opposing brexit. Yeah, whereas The european union is an organization that discriminates against lots of the people that you Not represent, but that you support in detention and people with who are struggling with papers, etc Who are often in much more who often came from a much more vulnerable place I mean a much more vulnerable situation than someone who if migration controls changed Wouldn't be able to come from poland to seek a higher wage I think that's a completely legitimate Thing to do on a personal level if you want to move abroad to get a higher wage good for you But i mean why why are you prioritizing? Brexit and freedom of movement to the extent that that you are i mean it but it's such a fundamental question You probably be surprised how many people from the eu are in detention centers by the way A lot and it's been growing massively. How come that's something i am on a way up if you're not sometimes It's under the excuse that you're not Operating your treaty rights. I think you'll know the terms in order to be Like to be to be you freedom of movement is not the absolute right to just come here and Do whatever come and go as you please you have to be employed There's various conditions with it and then they've been particularly targeting homeless people For deportation there's also a scandal about some homelessness charities turning people into the home office. Yeah So i'm gonna i'm gonna be the naive questioner because i feel generally naive at this point i didn't know about this So that's I because what's said in the newspapers a lot is that maybe there could be some reform or if someone hasn't found A job for six months and they have to go but it's that it's already a situation that Yeah, i mean it just means basically Corbyn's position means there will be no reversal of any of therese amaze hostile environment for immigrants There's nothing in the manifesto that deals with the hostile environment for immigrants Which basically brought all kinds of services for you know, basically everything about your life Is like monitored and checked. You have to keep proving who you are. So whether you've got You know, you're right. I mean it's it's got to sink in because we are dealing with a fight against racism and xenophobia And if we don't deal with it, then there isn't a fight to be made. It's a losing battle it's it means that like They're we're living in different bubbles to be quite honest life in britain now is like completely different If you're on a visa or you know, any of the number of plethora of different kinds of statuses Whether you're from in the eu or outside And and none of it's dealt with in reality in labor's manifesto as it is But yeah, you're okay I just want to go back to that question of because I can see how there was a lot of things absent from the manifesto Like a lot of anti-racist policies are a lot of policies about the rights of migrants But the freedom of movement seems like a somewhat separate issue Yeah, but it's it's um It allows still that we're dealing with that same myth that immigrants are the problem It means that that's left intact. That is most important weapon of the right wing To divide, you know, is the idea that immigrants are your problem is people that are your problem Not your employers not the system like the things that you mentioned. It's no no, it's people Doing things to try and make their life better. They're the problem And that's where things are left and um That undermines our struggle. We have to understand that um in terms of like the yeah um Free movement of people. I always say it that way free movement of people is the question frankly They're just going to negotiate new deals with donald trump. They'll be you know in terms of movement of capital You know their plan is to just cut some deals with donald trump and try and save brexit that way I mean, that's not going to improve anyone's conditions of life here. Whatever his plan is Um, you know, whatever they're called to account whatever their demands for a deal is that's not going to be better It's free movement of people And that's the thing that was under attack in the brexit campaign. That's why In reality it was driven by racism and it drives racism. That's why there was a spike in hate crime You know, that's why faraj stood in front of that poster You know of refugees that aren't even contained in this free movement of people because it was that was what it was about So that's the appeal is to say to people your problem is all these people May like and to stereotype people either as like they're going to calm as scab labor They're going to calm as like they're going to steal your job. How is that different to saying these are foreigners coming to steal your job? like we have to move away from that and You know Just that's that's where it's at. I don't know to me. It's not complicated that it is racist the fact that we have members Living in places who there's people coming knocking on people's doors saying do you want to help packing? We'll help you pack They don't care whether you're from the eu or from outside That's what was happening after brexit's vote So it's not a mistake. It's real The racist attacks the emboldening of racism is real The xenophobia is real the The way that a whole lot of people who never had a problem before feel unwelcome. That's real They didn't make that up You know and they're left out of the conversation and I think anything in what corbin's talking about there Um He's using terms that back. That's xenophobia. So it's not even Fighting to say well, it's not the people that are the problem. What wears the agenda then just to fight for the conditions and anyway Open the borders. Yeah, I'm gonna say open the borders. Do you know what because people were doing it Crossing the Mediterranean and pulling down fences. Anyway, they were doing that to save their lives So it's a real concrete demand because people would that's where they were at We need to decide if we are here to fight for A decent quality of life for people Or whether we're gonna be like an inward-looking, you know, kind of nationalistic more, you know um protectionist Enclave I think there's lots of food for thought and we're gonna come back to all those issues But we're actually gonna take a break now Uh partly because I desperately need a cup of water. Uh, so we'll be back in two minutes Over the last 10 years things have really Over the last 10 years things have really changed But for all the darkness every cause has an effect Oh For all the talk of change the present moment is really one of crisis A crisis of democratic representation of identity a climate crisis of a failing economic model Which isn't working for most people. 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Please, yeah Okay, I'll think of a question to ask before we start before I give it to you actually otherwise we're gonna have an awkward silence um I want to go back to this question of characterizing Brexit as racist and More about how do we negotiate the current political climate in Britain? given that so One thing I think that brexit showed is that the left had sort of failed in letting Elites and an undemocratic organization defend a policy that many of us happened to like So many of us happened to like freedom of movement and thought that was good But we never really went out and had that argument with people and built up any kind of popular support for it and we relied on a fairly undemocratic institution with fairly neoliberal motivations to enforce a policy we happen to like and Given where we are now um, if you're If you want to defend freedom of movement if you want that to be something we keep How do we do that? And if you're unsure about freedom of movement, how would you navigate this current situation? We're in whilst arguing against freedom of movement, but Trying to avoid that becoming a generally xenophobic climate I'm going to ask Zoe and I'm going to pour everyone some water Um, okay. So here's the thing. I find it incredibly easy to defend freedom of movement and I mean another Europe is possible was very much a remain and reform uh campaign We said similarly to what you just said like there's a whole lot of stuff about the EU that we really very deeply are opposed to um but We uh, we still Thought remaining was the best solution and the fact is we live in a world where the rich have freedom of movement Right, if you're rich enough you can get the education and the visa And the travel and you can come here if you're rich enough You don't even have to speak english or have any job lined up or anything because if you can show a certain amount You can just come here Right, and then if you're rich enough you can you can apply for those reasons and everything Right for the poor people of this world who are not european citizens We have the refugee crisis, right? As what we've seen if you need to flee your home and you need to go to the opportunities that All of us sitting in this room take absolutely for granted every single day, right? That freedom that safety that prosperity that we all take absolutely for granted Right, then and you're not rich and you're not european Then you get the refugee crisis then you're piled up at the borders Then you're drowning in the Mediterranean then you're giving birth in a muddy field next to a fence being tear gas by hungarian border guards, right? What freedom of movement has done not enough, right? But for a certain group of people so far It's mean that the opportunities of movement are available to all right So the working class people the poor people, right don't have to be excluded from the opportunities of mobility, right? um And so to be against freedom of movement is to be against the opportunities of mobility for the poor And to be the poor within europe Yeah, the poor within europe To add them to the poor within the rest of the world and to just say that we'll go along with this World that we have where only the rich can travel and it's getting easier and easier for us while it's getting harder and harder for them and um, I don't I don't buy into that and I also know for a fact And you all do too that again given the world we live in immigration is not going anywhere We're not going to get it down to the tens of thousands or zero net migration It's just not really realistic and none of the right wing or left wing proponents of brexit Actually even want that right what they want is a class of people who can be more easily exploited Who can be pitted against each other if you come here under freedom of movement rules? You have the right to be treated like any other british citizen, right in work in social housing And so on and so forth right that So so you basically think make make that argument Uh, how are you how are you gonna how are you going to convince? 50 plus percent of of the british electorate to get behind that? I think by well doing the opposite of what corbin's done, right? So absolutely rejecting narratives that say we're mass importing eastern europeans that Is the exact opposite of what I would do I would stand up again and again and I do and make these arguments and join together with Migrants from the EU and from the rest of the world to make the arguments together about how when we stand together We're all better off and also, I mean, I know that We've got to make more emotional arguments brexit appeal to emotions people aren't interested in the facts But the facts still do remain That as you mentioned at the beginning and can it can never be said enough that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that freedom of movement brings them wages I would just add just one last little fact fun thing Which is that EU migrant or overall we all know immigration brings a net economic benefit to the uk right because people work good jobs Um, and then they end up paying taxes and that goes towards our public services and so on but People from the EU make a much higher net economic benefit to the uk economy now That's not because they're better harder workers It's not because you know, they they're able to get better jobs It's because well, it is because they're able to get better jobs because they have Flexibility they can come and go when they have a good job They can come here if there's a better job available in germany they can go there And they know they can come back and they've got rights in each of those places They've got a labor market available to them. So let's not just talk about the labor You know this labor force being available to employers Workers have a huge labor market available to them where they have rights Right where they can move and come and go and all the evidence shows that when you crack down on people's ability to move You do not make them leave you just make them stay in poorer conditions and be more vulnerable to Exploitation and there are a thousand studies that I could cite to you That show that again and again So removing freedom of movement whether or not you actually think that this neoliberal project etc Etc that's the world we're living and removing it will make things so much worse for the most vulnerable For the poorest for the working classes and that is just not a left-wing perspective I think there's An issue that comes up That's actually quite difficult to navigate if you're not like a social science So I'm social scientist who understands all the data and all the papers, which is I include myself in that which is there's lots of Academic papers that say it doesn't really affect wages and even in certain industries where it does affect it Are only affected by about 0.5 percent At the same time you've got a lot of people like probably the people you were organizing with in the RMT who Whose experience is specifically that migrant labor has Damage their working conditions and the problem is or There can be a problem or I think there is a problem in British politics at the moment where there's people with a pet with a Statistical paper telling people who have this certain experience that your experience is wrong because my Statistical paper shows it to be wrong Um, I don't know how that's going to develop into a question, but It does that makes it does that is that what you think Eddie or I think I sort of understand what you're saying But I just want to get back to the point I'm trying to make and that is the free movement of labor isn't an isolated thing that operates on its own and has Directly all the responsibility for or not of wage conditions and everything else It undermines collective bargaining, which is what the biggest problem is There isn't always in every industry a direct attack on wages Depending on the level of organization and and the local factors in that industry. So for example, if you look at Romania The the combination of the two collective bargaining at the free movement of labor And a free movement of capital and they're joining the EU But they had nearly 90% collective bargaining rates in their countries dropped to 20 You know, you got youth unemployment 50% in in some parts of the EU And the two things work together And inside and there's a point There's a point my comrades made there that's that's that's particularly pertinent And that is the narrative that makes it a problem when you're talking about immigration It's a problem of individuals that particular worker that immigrant and that's the problem There's a flip side to that as well And that's viewing the free movement of of labor as an individual right when what we should be focused on is collective rights And collective action because free movement of labor is only free movement as long as you keep moving as soon as you stop And you demand a house to live in or education for your kids Or a decent decent social services your freedoms all went now I mean, I got the freedom of movement to go and live in in the on-tems for example Because of all the economic factors of it So it's it's not a real freedom what we should be demanding is collective freedoms like for example National collective bargaining arrangements that covers every worker in an industry Access to housing education those are real right real rights Not these individual sort of like half rights people painters rights We should be rejecting that but I mean so that the problem is so people want change Right people recognize that their rights in work are being undermined But the question is what change do we tell them is is the best one? Right or what change do we come together as the best one and say someone like I mean Paul Mason obviously flip-flops on sort of like his opinion on freedom of movement But one suggestion he had was Close-shop unions and if you have close-shop unions, which means wherever you're from you can only join this workplace If you're a member of a trade union doesn't that just itself solve all the problems that freedom of movement potentially Brings about and therefore we can say migration isn't the problem It's the lack of close-shop unions, which is a problem and then we can stand behind a position Which is let's have close-shop unions, but migrations Fine Oh, I'm completely in favor of close-shops But what about close-shop to plus freedom of movement? I think close-shops would be a massive positive step in the direction of Of removing the competition between workers, but I still think You can't have a position of open borders under capitalism. It's just complete nonsense Nobody wants it except you know, there's like a tiny Fraction of people that even talk about it most people in the country wouldn't entertain the idea And if you make that sort of a demand on Corbyn when we're about You know, we're on the cusp of achieving the biggest political victory of my class in my whole lifetime Coming out with this sort of rubbish. You're just a strax people. It's always about I'm going to go for Antonio. He looks he looks skeptical. Yeah. Well, okay I'm looking They used for when were they not collar bars in unions essentially Well, that's because if you've got a raise to you The collar bars were broken by an irish worker in a caribbean worker that were members of my union Well, yeah Weren't closed shops ways of And the reason they were able to do that in 1966 is because they had a closed shop and everybody in that organization was a member of their union That's how they did it There's a there's a generational gap and talking on the subject you're raising about the experience of people Yeah, um, let's not use it as code for only one set of people The experience for a younger generation is you grow up in an integrated society It's the most integrated generation the idea of like people being from different places is so much more what is actually good about You know about This country it is it's multicultural. It's multiracial. It's like so many different backgrounds and The younger generation voted remain now. I don't think that they were voting for The eu to black male greece or you know the eu to let people drown in the sea or anything, but it was felt as The You know my friends are from everywhere and And I want them to have the right to stay and try imagining Unpicking what the society is now when you're having families who some are from here Some are from other parts of europe some are from outside europe Who's going to have the right to stay like unpick Because our communities and london and the places that were the most um You know remain were the most overwhelmingly integrated places london but not just london even when you look down to Different areas where there's more of an experience of immigration. There's much more of a remain Vote and the younger voters and so on the same people who were overwhelmingly voting for Corbin as leader who were fighting for labor That's where the heart of the energy came from in that campaign So this is why to me it's a betrayal in reality. There is a whole experience is telling people why The importance of the free movement of people the ability to come and go the fact that you may have a parent You know two parents from different You know parts that okay, so you can be in a situation now If you earn a certain amount will that mean you get to stay if you're your spouse Whether you can bring your partner to come in with you. So that's something For anyone else that anyone now it's going to be a problem for everyone in the EU as well Corbyn said that anyone here will have the right to remain In that in that interview you can have the right to remain whilst you're in britain But can you also like if you're of an integrate family from different backgrounds? You won't have the right to necessarily remain if you leave Can you come back? You you have to get into the machinations of what immigration and what immigration controls mean already because i'll say this about britain britain already has some of the harshest most hostile anti-immigrant policies You know in europe some of you know, I think you know There are some other places that have harsh, but britain is the place that has indefinite detention nowhere else britain is the place that has the most detention centers prisons built Just to hold people with a question mark over their status in terms of a political demand. What do you want a second referendum? Um, yeah, I want to defend the free movement of people. No new immigration controls should be a demand We're going to do a rally at the labor party conference and we're going to be fighting for them to take that Uh or to galvanize. I mean I think do feel that way to make a demand Yeah, we do need to because there's another immigration bill around the corner. We already had two and they're just criminalizing people the the mechanisms for Attacking monitoring controlling and it is a form of social control Like already are in place. They're there. They're just expanding to more and more people So you want you want the labor party to have a policy of complete open borders in the whole world? They're not going to go with a whole the borders, but that's our demand. So I don't you know Yeah, it's fine to have a demand that you don't think the labor party's going to take on but it's just a specific question We're going to make the demand no matter what Um, where I think that there's a whole lot of a heart of of of this the new people who have been joining Labor who would be quite surprised to see for being repeating words that sound like you kit Who will be feeling like no, but we we did want we do want our friends to have a right to stay We don't want our families torn apart. We don't want to lose our schoolmates from the same classroom You grow up together, but you know one was born here one wasn't or one's parents are from somewhere else So they're not a british citizen. We already seeing people who grew up You know their entire life has been in this country who end up in detention centers getting deported to countries They don't even remember. Does that have anything to do with leaving the EU though or I'm saying that it has to do with The whole question of immigration and this this brexit was around immigration immigration was the issue It was the guiding issue and everything else Could be sacrifices interesting to me that the far right of the Tory party are so into Um brexit and there is such a parallel to You know the kind of um, you know attacks on on workers rights They see this as a way forward of attacking workers rights and exploiting people Further and better and and you know more consistently so Yeah, why why is there such a Why is there such a parallel there? We've been we've been talking a while so i'm going to ask a final question and do a do a go around um, which is I think it'll be based on Because I don't think uh corbin support was do actually seeing that upset about this In the main and I think one reason there is that people see Anti-racism as something that's an absolute red line But they don't see the freedom of movement of labour as necessarily Linked with anti-racism and they don't want to they don't want labour to die on the altar of freedom of labour freedom of movement of labour when what we want to be Advocating for in the strongest possible terms is human rights anti-racism and people associate that more with refugees and asylum seekers than other white people in europe And I want to ask the question which is going to be different for all of you. I suppose because you've got different stances, but why Do you think or and why do you think that this freedom of movement of labour is an issue that We really have to channel. Can we not separate an anti-racist Labour party policy from the advocacy of freedom of movement. I'm going to go around start with Zoe, I'm going to assume you're going to say we can elaborate on that So, sorry, can we separate opposition to the freedom of movement of labour from racism? um I don't think that you can separate xenophobia from racism very satisfactorily. Um, I Don't think that you can separate the general feeling of antagonism towards freedom of movement from xenophobia at least so no, um The the reality is that you are asking us to not split the movement by sacrificing The rights of all the immigrants who have equality to us Um, it's amazing all the immigrants that come from Europe. So the ones that we have so far. So this is a Our position is to defend and extend freedom of movement. I wouldn't argue for the immediate opening of UK borders to the entire world. I don't think that's that's would be um a good Result, but that that a world of more mobility is certainly the direction that I would argue is preferable It's I think it's an absolutely defining fundamental issue for the left, right? The left has to be an international solidarity movement or it is nothing and Corbyn in particular, you know, we talk about this opportunity that he has like he can't fulfill one single beautifully costed really exciting left-wing manifesto pledge if we have this completely Country destroying hard Brexit that he's also pursuing the and off the back of that we see people who Millions of people in this country who frankly I don't have any right to a better life than just because I was like endowed with the right passport to uh, you know in danger of losing their rights the rolling back of rights rather than the advancement of the argument that people Who are here should have equal rights that include in in the workplace and that allows them to collectively bargain better conditions It is to me. It's just an absolute no-brainer for the left if you start dividing people workers and so on and Disadvantaging those based on completely arbitrary privilege of nationality Um, you've completely lost the moral argument practical argument. I just don't see how It could be and I I agree with so much what you said about how we need stronger trade unions and better workplace protection And so on and so forth. Those are the answers Getting rid of freedom movement is not the answer stripping three and a half million people in this country of their Fundamental rights is not the answer stripping all of us of the opportunities To travel is not the answer rolling back the rights of minorities and immigrants is not the answer Thank you. Petros. Okay, so um A lot's been said so it's a lot of spoke so I'm not Come back on all those points, but a couple of things. Yeah a couple of things to know One way to one way to counter the narrative that I think we should all be doing the anti-immigrant narrative regardless of your position on free free movement Is to just promote the successes of Of organized migrant workers first and foremost, and I think we should be seeing a lot more headlines out there In newspapers and on social media, you know migrant workers win this migrant workers win that and if we actually because you know We don't need to sensationalize it. It's happening all over the place And some of the biggest successes in the labor movement as history is showing What's happening today and what history has shown a compum large migrant sectors of the workforce, and I think it's history repeating itself some of the most innovative and exciting And successful labor struggles have been as we fought for migrant workers And I think we should need to start to to to churn those headlines out You know migrant workers win this migrant workers migrant workers win that and obviously that will provide a counter narrative to the claims that they're You know just accepting whatever crap they get thrown at them and and that has a knock-on effect for other workers Which is which is just not the case Um the issue of closed shops. Yeah, I think closed shops obviously there's a yeah I mean I could be there they make perfect sense But they can fall into the hands of employees uh through sweetheart unions and sweetheart deals And that would obviously have to be resisted if you were to sort of promote a closed shop um system um Collective bargaining agreements are at their lowest Ever I think in the last hundred years. So when we look at sort of the you know sectors are completely dominated by employers these days for the last Decades, you know, there has been no organized labor within like particularly the service sector Which is the low-paid sector, you know the trade, you know, there are so employers have become Employers are extremely arrogant these days. They have they have no fear They set the wages. They set the terms of conditions. They set the workloads and nobody is challenging them The trade union movement is not challenging them. Um, and so clearly that is going to have to that is going to have to change Uh, it can change. It's going to require a lot of innovative thought Uh, and a lot of resources, but it definitely can change. Um, and the final point I wanted to come back on Just to pick up on something Zoe said just perhaps for another debate, but I'm not sure if it's a tenable position to be Uh in favor of free movement, uh within EU but not Globally, I mean, I don't I don't defend an extent so like not open borders for the entire world tomorrow See, I don't think I do mean that it should be I think you either have to be in in favor of this I'm going to be slightly provocative with this, but but but why not? I think you I think the only tenable position is to be in favor of full control or no control And I don't think there's a tenable position, uh in between But you can say that you're going to have to be another debate Yeah I mean, I think I can see some arguments that could be advanced, but I think ultimately Morally and it's gonna it's gonna have to be a full control or no control position Which I think is the most tenable because ultimately what do we owe to the EU? What do we owe to people within EU actually nothing and arguably we all we owe Uh, you know as an imperialist and colonialist country we owe a lot more obviously to uh, A lot of people outside of the EU and so if we're gonna open our borders then it should certainly be as much to Uh people outside of the EU as to those within EU. So just on that I thought I'd just end it on that on that note Eddie Yeah, I think um Well, first of all, I think Corbyn's absolutely right in everything he said and I don't endorse what he said And I think on top of that I hate when people from this free movement position Continue think they can speak on behalf of all minorities and all migrants in the country as if somehow They had some kind of you know broad You know, everyone's got the same view because it's just not the case. I'm a member of the Conley Association It's the oldest organization of Irish workers in this country Founded in the 30s by international brigaders We campaign very hard for a brexit in this country on a national question and the implications for Ireland and everything else And while we were doing that we campaigned alongside the Indian Workers Association Which has got a very long history in this country and actually helped was one of the constituents that helped the The RNT the NUI was it was back then break the colour bar in 1966 And bring race race race discrimination into employment legislation for the first time So we campaigned with together on a ticket for brexit So there's not this idea that all migrants have somehow got a point of view that their rights are being damaged by Um losing a free movement of labour There's a lot of migrants and a lot of migrant workers in this country that understand what the EU is that it's a near liberal institution It's imperialist that it's uh the single market is is one thing the single market is a federal right Straight jacket for anyone who's interested in initiating socialist policies. It's right that it goes in the bin The country is broadly in favour of getting rid of it. Corbett is finally speaking In terms that broadly reflect I think the opinion of the working class in this country And I don't accept that it's a racist point of view the working class in this country is probably the most diverse multiracial You know, uh, working class any way you can find it's the most tolerant in my view. Yes, there's racism Of course, there is and we've got a fight against that Um, but you know me i'm an Irishman I'm proud to be a member of the british working class because that's where I work With people from all around the world and I think the right thing to do is get rid of the free movement Get rid of the single market most importantly And we've got to do it on the basis that our movement stands for the democratic ownership and control of the economy All of it there ain't a bit of it that we want to give to the uh, Boss class there ain't any section in the economy. We want to leave just to the To the to the anarchy in the markets We want to take it all into ownership and we want to run things We want to plan the economy and that means taking control of the of the movements of capital and of labour Because we want to see socialism Antonio you get the final word Um, will your questions that can be separated? Can we separate the abandonment of freedom of movement of labour with racism? Can we be both anti-racist and Question or oppose the freedom of movement of labour? And I just think we have to look at the practical way that um attacking Immigration and through brexit, which technically technically means the EU But in reality it was that the campaign was conducted as an attack on immigration So since that's true We have to fight over that that's not like To celebrate the EU as anything wonderful or whatever, but um How do you unpick I mean look at what we're about to face unpicking families communities I don't doubt. In fact, I've been repeating many times to be quite frank Immigrant communities have been at the forefront of progressive struggles in this country for like generation upon generation upon generation And that has meant a fight within the british working class over its racism It means we have to fight racism within our movement We don't take for granted that it doesn't exist. It does exist It's not in the interest of any of the poor and exploited Any of the working classes. It's not in the material interests But it is still a factor It's in the material interests of the elite of the ruling classes. Yeah to hold on to racism But look at how hard they're willing to sacrifice so much for a policy that attacks immigration Anti-immigrant rhetoric is so important. It is The thing brexit is the thing holding to reason may in place right now Why prop her up? Why help her? Like it is the thing and an anti-immigrant policy is like the one thing they want to hold on to because it is just the most important weapon Against people who should be fighting together and I just think that as it's just you know We're gonna have to fight for a different Europe. We're not going back to an old one You know, um, we were in a fight for immigrant rights across Europe in any case We're in a fight against racism across Europe in any case But putting up more borders and becoming more protectionist Doesn't it doesn't solve that it actually makes it harder. It's actually been a huge boost for the far right Not just here but around the world Thank you so much all for coming this evening. I kind of short notice. We organized this late in the afternoon It's been a hectic day in in navara towers Um, and I'm sure we'll be continuing this debate in the months and years ahead It's the perennial debate that happens whenever the left gets anywhere near to power Um, this was the fix. This was navara media. We'll see you on fursday