 Okay. All right, the recording is on. Welcome everyone to the course BC310 on Church and Ministry Administration. It's good to have all of you back. Nice to see you all. Nice to see all of you back in class and thank you for connecting. All right, let's pray and get started and then, you know, we'll do the introduction to the course and get into it. Let's pray together. Father, we thank you that we could come back together as a college, as students and start a new semester, a new year, a new academic year. Thank you for the journey so far. And Lord, we pray that as we journey together in this course, call that you give us your wisdom. Give us, fill us Lord, with your understanding and the things that we need to learn, things that need to be written into our hearts and minds. Do it Lord, by the power of your spirit and your word, your truth. Let it be established in our hearts and minds. We pray for all those who are in-person, online and will be doing this on e-learning. May this course be a blessing to each and every student and may it help us serve you well and serve your people well in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you everyone. Let me just go ahead and share the screen, share the notes that can get started. Can you all see the PDF that I'm sharing? Okay. So this PDF is available in the app poster and the coursework, the classwork section so you can take it from there. What are we going to learn in this course on church and ministry administration? One of the things that we need to, I guess, embrace is that we need to combine our depth in the word of God, the spirit of God with good, skillful organization and administration so that our churches, our ministries can be not only an effective vehicle for the power of God, but you can also serve people well, that we can preach, impact and serve many people. So we must understand that we need to combine these two, combine the depth in the word of God and in the spirit with good organization and administration. On the other hand, if somebody may be very anointed, somebody may be very gifted, somebody may be very good in the word and spirit, but if they don't combine their spiritual gifting with the practical side of proper administration and organization, then their reach and their impact will be limited and sometimes they may even struggle, find difficult things difficult in the ministry, not because they don't have the anointing of God fully gifted and called by God, but because they don't have the proper, call it a support system, the organization, the administration is not there and so sometimes even things could come to a halt if they don't have that good support system. So what we're going to do in this course is, I'm going to just share a lot of what we've been doing here at ABC and also best practices, things that we can learn from others, other churches, other ministries, other organizations on the practical side, on the organization and administration side of the local church. The focus context of course is a local church, but if you're doing any other ministry, you know, maybe running a music ministry or a youth ministry or a building ministry, you can also use many of these things in that context. These are all transferable ideas, so they're not, although we are going to be speaking from the context of a local church, these ideas can be used for any ministry. So we'll get some of the things that we're going to cover in this course is, you know, we'll start up by talking about why is good administration important when we're talking about spiritual ministry, you know, church and Christian ministry. Why do we need good administration? What are some of the objectives that we wish to achieve through good organization and administration? We'll start off with the formation of a legal entity that is the church trust and governance. So that's the first step, you need to create a legal entity in order to, you know, legally function in any country. Then, you know, how do you give this thing, this legal entity shape and structure, the organization structure. We will talk about policies, guidelines and standards. We'll talk about systems and processes that we put in place. It's almost like setting up the machinery that's needed to do things. We will talk about church staff, human resource management, talk about the culture in the workplace. We'll talk about the finance side of things, you know, how do you manage the finances? This is very important. We can't go wrong in this area. Some legal aspects, of course, the legal aspects will vary from country to country, but you know, how is an organization, how do you manage that? How do you keep that in check? Then we talk about planning and coordination. So a lot of activities that are happening in the church has to be planned and coordinated. So how do you do that? How do you set up ministry teams to do different ministries in the church? How do you set up volunteer teams? You know, a lot of things, especially in the church or the Christian ministry, there are a lot of volunteers involved. People are contributing their time, their energy, their effort. So how do you take care of volunteers? The church culture, a little bit on project management. How do you execute projects? How can you leverage technology? And how do you pursue excellence? So these are kind of things we're going to cover. It's a wide, wide, you know, area, a lot of things, but hopefully, you know, we will give you, share with you key things, key points or key thoughts here in each of these areas that you can use to build upon. Next semester, we'll have a separate course on media and technology in ministry where we kind of get into a greater detail on leveraging technology, get into the details of media and technology, how you can use that. So in this course, I'll just introduce you to the ideas, different things that can be done and what are you doing. I'll give a quick overview, but in our next semester, in that course on media and technology, we're going to get a little bit more deeper into how you can use media and technology in ministry. So we'll have one assessment. I think I'll put it at the end of the course. It'll be three parts covering three sections of this entire course. They'll be pretty simple, straightforward, open book, open notes and nothing complicated just to give you a good review of the course. Yeah, so we're going to get started. Let me pause. Are there any questions about the course, about what we're going to cover? Anybody has any questions? All right. No questions. Let's get started. Let's get into the course. So in lesson one, I'm sharing the PDF back to the PDF. Lesson one, what is the importance of good administration, especially from a church or a Christian ministry perspective? Because sometimes people can say, hey, this is God's work. He doesn't need us. He doesn't need us putting our brains and organizing and planning. It will just happen. Give the Holy Spirit free flow. Don't interfere, etc. So there are a lot of things that people can say which are actually against the idea of organization and administration. So how do we bring these two perspectives together and get a biblical understanding of this? So I want us to think about some things here from the scriptures. First of all, in the Bible, we see that God himself is a God of order, design, organization and creativity. So even in the things that God does, right from chapter one in Genesis, God didn't just say, hey, just everything come. You can think about it. God is doing it. Genesis one says, on the first day, he did this. Second day, he did this. Third day, he did this. He just didn't say, hey, everything just come. He could have, he didn't have to do it over six days. He didn't have to be organized in that sense, do certain things on day one and day two. So there itself, we have seen in Genesis chapter one that for whatever reason, God is doing things in a very organized way. In, you could even say, in a very planned way. He planned day one, this will happen. I'll do this. Day two, I'll do this. Day three, I'll do this. Day four. So he planned and then day seven, God rested. It's not like he needed to rest. Oh, I have spent so much energy. I'm tired. No. It was very intentional. It was something he designed. So we can therefore, it is safe to say that our God is a God of order, design, and he's, of course, creator. He's this creativity in all that he's doing, but he's also very organized, planning his work. Yeah. We can look at some scriptures and when we come to 1 Corinthians 14, it's a well-known chapter there. 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul is addressing having order in the church, and he kind of sums up all his instruction in 1 Corinthians 14. And the last verse, verse, but not like verse 33, we can look at verse 33, and also verse 40, 1 Corinthians 14, 33 and 40. He says in verse 33, I'll check if you want to read verses 33 and verse 43. Oh, you don't have the mic. Okay. Never mind. I'll just read it. It's okay. I'll read. God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all the churches of the saints. And then verse 40, he says about what happened to the church. He says that all things be done decently and in order. So God is not the author of confusion. He doesn't want this chaos in that sense of things happening randomly, arbitrarily, without order. But instead, God is the God of order, let all things be done decently and in order. So while there's creativity, and God is powerful and God is omnipotent, he's still very orderly in the way he does this. It is true. He's omnipotent. He's all powerful. Nothing's containing his power, but he's still doing it intentionally in a very orderly way, very planned way, decently and in order. Now, there are many other examples we can look in the old test. I mean, I'll just mention a few. When we see how God, and you read about this in the book of numbers, and we can read the first 10 chapters in the book of numbers, God, as if leading the people out of Egypt to the land of Canaan, once they come out of Egypt, they cross the Red Sea. After that, God is saying, okay, Moses, I want you to organize the people. So he had given instruction to Moses to build the tabernacle. And then he tells them, I want three tribes to be on one side of the tabernacle. Then these other three tribes should be pitched on this side of the tabernacle. Another three tribes on the south side, another three tribes, three tribes on the west side. So it's not like, okay, all of you just stay where you are, put your tent where you are, just stay there. No, it's very organized. These three tribes on the north, these three on the east, these three on the south, these three on the west. Then when all of you have to make your journey, you blow the trumpet, then these three tribes start moving. Then these follow, these follow. So you can just look at that and all these details are there in the book of numbers. It may seem very boring to read. You know, the first 10 chapters, God is giving all these instructions like, be like this, be organized like this, you get up like this, you go like this. So it seems very boring to read, but it's telling us so much about God. It's telling us that God, he wants them to move in a very organized way and he's giving detailed instruction. You blow the trumpet, they lift up their flag, and the people follow the flag and they follow that. So he wants things to be done in a very orderly way. So we see that as a beautiful example where God is a God of order and organization and so on. So similarly, when we see God wanting Moses to build the tabernacle, he says, Moses, this is how the tabernacle must be built. You know, just say, okay, make anything you want. No, this is how it is. Solomon, when you are going to build the temple, God gave the design to David and he says, this is how the temple must be built. Right? So you can see, you know, God just giving details and how things have to be organized, how things have to be done. Other examples in the Old Testament, Moses leading his team. We see how Moses, at one point, he was trying to take care of all the people and then Jethro, his father-in-law, comes, he says, Moses, see, if you're going to do this all by yourself, it's going to be very difficult. But what I want you to do, and Jethro gives Moses the advice, he says, you know, you appoint leaders, yeah, and you organize them to take care of groups of 50 groups of hundreds. So they will help you this, you know, take care of the people rather than you sitting and trying to take care of all of these people. You have leaders under you who will be in charge of groups of 50 and groups of 100 and they will be able to take care. So you see that then in numbers later on in numbers 11, God himself says, Moses, I want you to select 70 elders. And I will put my spirit on the 70 elders. And the 70 elders will help you take care of the people. So Jethro has given advice, in Exodus 18, God himself says, Moses, you appoint 70 elders to take care of all of these people and order in the camps. Number 10 is what I just referred to about their journey. Worship in the Tabernacle. Again, this is very, very amazing. When we think about this worship in the Tabernacle, you know, think about David, how we organized worship in the Tabernacle. This is something that went on for 33 years, nonstop. So there was worship happening in the Tabernacle of David, nonstop for 33 years, day and night. How was that possible? You read about how David organized it. David said, okay, we'll have 24 teams. Everybody's given one-hour slot. And you come, you lead worship through the prayer, go. So he had about, you know, dedicated worship leaders. Then he had about 4,000 people, musicians and others. Then he had another 4,000 people serving in the temple. So almost a group of more than 8,000 plus people was serving in the Tabernacle. But they're all very well organized. You know, the worship leaders are given the worship teams. We will call them worship teams. They're all given their slots to come in and they all continuously are leading worship and the musicians with them. And so there was nonstop praise and worship going on for 33 years from the time he built the Tabernacle until later on it kind of phased out. But this happened. So even in the worship of the Tabernacle, we see such detailed planning and organization. It just did happen randomly. Was God in it? Yeah, God was in it. Was God being worshiped? Yes, was God being glorified? Yes. But there was also organization. There was planning, there was order and there's many details. Other examples we can see in the rebuilding of the walls in the book of Nehemiah. You know, God stirred up Nehemiah to go in and rebuild the walls. But it just didn't happen randomly. Nehemiah went and all the people who are willing to come and help him, you know, he is making a lot of noise here. Anyway, he organized the people to work along the different gates of the city wall. They organized them and they were all given their tasks to be done. So even in the rebuilding of the walls, Nehemiah carried it out in a very systematic and very organized way. So we see these examples. Of course, it was God who was at work. It was God who had stirred up Nehemiah. It was God who had given him favor. It was God who had stirred up the hearts of the people to participate in the rebuilding the walls. But Nehemiah did it in a very organized way and the work was done. We come to the New Testament. Again, in the New Testament, we see, you know, organization being done. An example that we see early on is an Acts after Six where in the church, when they were in the early church, they were having to distribute food to the people, you know. So there were the Hebrews and the Greeks. There were Jewish believers, Jewish believers. Some of them who were Hebrews. Some of them who were from Greek would become believers. They were all part of the church and the Greek speaking and the Hebrew speaking Jews would become believers. And they were serving food to all the people. But there were some problems because the Hebrews and the Greeks, they felt that, you know, they were not being treated equally. The Hebrew speaking Jews and the Greek speaking Jews. So there was a little problem. And what did the apostles do? By the help of the Holy Spirit? This was their solution. They said, let's appoint seven men. We will put seven men in charge of this matter and let these men serve food to the people and, you know, take care of this whole thing of serving food. So you can imagine, you know, you have to serve 3000 people food every day. It's not an easy thing. But what did they do? They delegated that responsibility. And the apostles didn't go. Maybe in the first, you know, period, first early, yeah, early weeks, maybe all the apostles were busy serving food. And then they realized, look, this is not something we can do. And, you know, people are also complaining that they're not getting the right or whatever the issues were, they're not being treated fairly or whatever. It's okay. It's us trying to solve it. Let's give this responsibility to seven men. So they formed a team. We would call it today of a ministry team or the ministry team in charge of the ministry of food, something like that. And that team, you handle the whole thing. Of course, they chose Godly people. They chose seven men full of wisdom, full of the Holy Spirit, who had a good report. That means they chose the right people. But they gave that responsibility to the seven people and said, you take care of this whole thing. There are all these thousands of people who need to be given food every day. It's your responsibility. We are not going to worry about it. And then from then on, in Acts chapter six, we read that things worked out fine after that. And the word of God increased and the church kept growing. So the very beginning of the church, it's the early church, the Holy Spirit is moving. God is at work, but slowly things are being organized. Work is being delegated. Now, when we come to later on, so when we come to First Timothy, the third chapter, which is, we're talking almost about AD 60. So almost into 30, 40 years, 40 years after the beginning of the early church, when Paul is writing in First Timothy chapter three, just before he died. So it'll be around AD 67 or 68. But Paul is writing, by this time, it is very clear. He's writing about spiritual leader, then he's writing about deacons. So that means by this time, in the minds of the leaders of the church, it is very clear that there are people who will be put in charge of spiritual responsibility, like what we would call them as pastors and people who are doing spiritual ministry. And then there are also people who are considered as deacons. That means they are given administrative responsibility. They're given responsibility for the organization of the church. So that becomes very clear in Paul's writing in First Timothy three. That means, in the first 40 years, people have understood that in the church, you need both kinds of ministries. You need people who are going to do the spiritual ministry, or you need people who are going to do the help, so the administrations and the organization ministry. And both of these require godly people. So in First Timothy chapter three, Paul is saying, you choose spiritual leaders like this. And then he says, you choose deacons like this. But even the deacons, he's talking about godly character, godly things, like they should be people of good rapport, they should love the law, they should... So both sides, whether they are doing organization side or spiritual side, you need godly people in the church for the service of the people. And in Romans 16, and we will look at these scriptures. We see Paul writing about, you know, Phoebe, I think, yeah, Phoebe, who's a woman, but she's in charge of the administration of the church. She's handling some administrative matters in the church. So we see even women involved in this thing. So it becomes very clear, both from the old times, but the new times, when the god is organizing his work, he's God, he's powerful. But when he's working on the earth through people, he's working in a very, very systematic, very organized way. And when we come to the local church, and we're going to read some of these scriptures here, in the local church, we see that there are gifts and ministries in the church that are specialized in what we would refer to as organization. So let's go to Romans 12 first. Romans 12, 4 through 8, we'll read that. Romans 12, 4 through 8. Somebody could read it online. Romans 12, verse 4 to 8. Okay, yeah, quite 4 to 8. Yeah, Romans 12. Romans chapter 12 is 4 to 8. For us, we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office. So we be in one body in Christ, and every one member is one other. Having the gifts, according to the grace that is given to us, that is prophecy, that is prophecy, according to the proportion of faith for ministry, that is the will of our ministry, or the will that has been given to us. Okay, thank you. So in this list of what we would be called as believers' functions or believers' ministries, of course, this is not a complete list. It's not like everything that is there, but just a representative list of different gifts and functions, graces that God gives to his people. We find certain gifts, which we would connect to organization or administration. For example, verse 7, or ministry. That word ministry simply means any kind of service. So it's not just the preaching and the teaching of the word, but any kind of serving is here. That's verse number 7. So do it, you know, do it to serve people. Then there is giving in verse number 8. He who gives, so giving. So God may equip people to be very generous. You can give your money, you can give your time, you can give, you know, anything else. So giving, generosity. Then you also see leadership. He who leads with diligence. So leadership is another gift thing that God has placed in the church, leadership. So this could be leadership in anything. Somebody could be leading a ministry team. Somebody could be leading a team of volunteers. Somebody could be leading, you know, a certain aspect of the thing that's going on in the church, leadership. You know, leadership can be in so many areas, but you see that God has given people the ability to be able to lead others. So leadership is given and it can be used in so many different contexts. Leadership. So whoever leads, let them do the diligence. Then he says, showing mercy. Do it with chifras. So you see ministry giving leadership. They're not necessary. All these three are not necessarily the preaching or the teaching of the word, but it is some, it's very easy to recognize these in the context of organization and administration that somebody could be serving, leading or giving, you know, in the context of others. So God has put these in the church. Let's also look at 1st Corinthians chapter 12. And we will read verse 28. 1st Corinthians 12 and verse 28, please. Somebody could read that. And God has appointed these in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after the miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Thank you. So notice what he says in verse 28, God has appointed these. That means these are, you know, gift functions, kind of related to the functions. He's put them in the church, in the church. And in this list, you know, of course, he talks about apostles and prophets and teachers and all of that, but then you come down along in the gift you see in the list, you see, helps, administration, helps. That means anybody doing anything to help. It's a gift God has put in the church, just like how he has put apostles, the prophets, the teachers, the pastors, whatever, he's put these people in the church. And what are they gifted at? They're gifted at helping. They're gifted at, you know, doing and what, you know, we would use and notice the next word, administrations. That means they're good at organizing, running, running the, you know, the ministry, how things should work, how things should function. So the apostle himself is not an administrator. The apostle is a gift that God has placed in church, pastor, teacher, evangelist, all of that, God has placed them, but he's also placed people who are specially gifted by God in helps, in administrations. That's in the organization of the church. Right? So what was we do? We must recognize these people and we must obviously God has put them in the church because he wants the church to do well in these areas, just as he has put, you know, all the other gifts in the church. So obviously he wants the church to do well in administration. He wants the church to do well in the organization and the functioning part that's why he's put these people and so we must recognize these people, we must give them the space and the opportunity to come and do what God has gifted them to do and that helps in the administrations working alongside these spiritual ministries, you know, apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, all of that. They're all working side by side and then you'll have a healthy church, you'll have a church that's functioning very well. Right? So God has put this and we must recognize it and therefore we must provide the support system for these people to function and do their work. Right? And then lastly, when you look at this, you know, what Paul himself has written through the local church, so he writes to the Corinthians and first Corinthians chapter 11, verse 34, first Corinthians 11, you know, he says this is in the context of course of these people coming in, having the Lord stable together, he says, if anyone is hungry, let them eat at home, you come together for judgment and the rest I will set in order when I come. Notice he says, I will set things in order. Right? That means the local church has to function in an orderly way, you know, even in the matter of giving communion, it's got to be in order. It's not like chaos, like everybody come, take your cup of juice and take your cup of a piece of bread and, you know, go, no, no, no, this order, I will set in order things in the local church. We read first Corinthians 14, Paul wrote, you know, God is not the, let all things be done decently in an order, even to Titus, he writes about keeping things in order in the local church. Titus chapter 1 and verse 5, he says, it tells Titus, for this reason I left you in peace that you should set in order the things that are lacking and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you. So elders typically given for spiritual ministry, set in order the functioning part that should go well in all the cities where he had churches. So, you know, just when we look at God and the way God works, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, there is organization, there is administration, there is order, right? So let me just discover a few more thoughts and then, you know, we'll keep some time for questions as well in discussion. So anything from a practical perspective, also there's a need or perhaps we could even say there's a demand or maybe even an expectation for efficiency. You know, people in the congregation expect the local church to be organized and efficient, especially in an urban context, right? So you're in a city and if you're in a metro like Bangalore, you know, people are expecting the church to be very organized. If we say our event, whatever it is, Sunday service or whether it's something that starts at 10 o'clock or service starts at 10.30, they're expecting it to start at 10.30, you know, and they're expecting everything to be okay. You know, that means lights should be there, fans should be there, you know, the things should be properly functioning because that's kind of what they used to in the city, right? Most of them are working in corporate offices. Things happen on time, things happen efficiently. So by default, they expect the local church to also function in a same way, right? And they expect, for instance, if somebody wants a letter from the church, they expect to get it within one or two days, you know, somebody wants, you know, some assistance on the church, they expect things to happen quickly, right? So there is that expectation today, especially in an urban context for the church to be efficient. The church should respond quickly. And the only way that can happen is the church is organized and it's functioning well. Another important practical aspect is that people actually want to serve in the church, they want to remain spectators, they want to serve, but they are bringing skills that they have. And the skills they have may not be necessarily in the preaching and the teaching, you know, many of them have very good skills in organization, planning, in administration and on those kinds of things. And they want those skills to be used, you know, for the, to serve in the church. So we can't say how you don't preach, you don't teach, so you can't serve in the church. No. And what are the skills you have? Yeah, you're a good leader, you're a good organizer, you're a good in planning, you're good in managing money, you're good in technology, you're good in media, you're good in some of these things. Okay, see how that can be used in the church. So we need to create those kinds of opportunities. And lastly, a third reason, a practical thing is that the world around us, they are also both, you know, both believers and even those outside, they are expecting such competencies from the church or the church to be relevant. So, for example, if you see a local church, do you have a website? You know, they're expecting, you know, for the church to have a website and on the website, you're going to announce your events and all that, they're not expecting the church to be sending letters every day, you know, this is an event that no, they have a website. Can you send me an email? Can you send me a WhatsApp, you know, a message, a text message? Do you have a, you know, can I connect with you online? Things like that. So people are expecting the church to be ministering in these ways, even today, right, to be relevant and so on. So the congregation is expecting the church, congregation wants to serve in the church using their skills. And even the world outside is expecting these kinds of competencies from the church. And so the church needs to have good administration and organization, right? So let me pause here to see if there are any questions before I go forward in the next section. Any questions here? So far, Devin, I have a question. Yeah, so I just want to ask you how sometimes it feels like too much, like being, having a great vision and then thinking about administration, people creates a little fear because the starting days, you don't even have the people or you don't even know how we are going to start things sometimes as God gives you the vision. I just want to ask you, like, what's the first thing you did as you started your ministry? Or what are the things or struggles for you to think of? I think we all want to have some ministries. We all want to have some people, some help, but how to overcome the fear of starting something sometime. Like when I think of myself, I feel like, can I really do this? These many people, the ministries, do I have those abilities? These are some questions that I have. And I also wonder, like, will it really happen or not? So I just want to ask, like, what's the first thing that you struggled with and how you were given in the case of administration? Yeah, that's a good thing. So the question, you know, how can you, I mean, when I think about the question itself, like, I think one is preparation, right? So try to, you know, try to prepare as well as you can for the launch and the starting of the ministry God has given you. So try to think about, you know, try to develop whatever skills you can on the administrative side as well, the organization side as well. You know, try to think about it, try to learn as much as you can. So, you know, before we started All People's Church, I also spent, one of the things that it was, I also spent time looking at how other churches are running. So I took the time to, okay, how is that church organized? How is that church organized? It's looking at different, not what we're trying to copy, but we're trying to learn the good things. So I tried to say, okay, how is the church organized? So I looked at, especially one or two good models of churches, you know, I said, oh, yeah, this church is very, they're doing things like whatever that was very mission focused church. They're doing a lot of missionary work. And so that was something, you know, I wanted APC to be, I wanted APC to be a missions oriented church. That means we're not just there to feed people and keep ourselves, but I wanted us, I wanted church to be something that's looking outward, that is reaching across the city, the nation and the nation. So I tried to look at other churches that are doing that and observing them, like, how are they doing it? How are they organized? What are the different departments they have? How is that? You know, of course, I couldn't get into meaning, I was only looking at it from an outsider, like from a distance. I was trying to learn, you know, so that I found very useful as a part of preparation to start APC. And then, yeah, when we started in the early years, at least the first two years, I had to do everything. Like, so I would, for example, in the first two years, okay, I would come and I would set up everything. Of course, I had, you know, Amy was helping me with life and then there was one other couple, but I would come, I would set up the whole but I sounded like it wasn't much, was two big speakers, three mics, and one. So I set up everything, you know, come, set it all up, arrange all the chairs, clean the chairs, arrange the table. So basically, you are doing everything, right, start to finish and set up the projector, everything, prepare and of course, you're to prepare the slides that you're going to for the songs, prepare this and arrange the book table, everything you do before the service comes. Then you'll have, you know, 10, 20 people come and worship, you know, collect the offering. Then after everybody goes, you have to count the offering, write it in the accounts book, everything, you know, pack up and put everything away. So the first two years was like that, you know, but I had to do everything, but I wanted, I had to do it, nobody else was there, but I wanted to do it in a very organized way. So whatever I knew, I applied it, you know, I would write the accounts in a book, keep record, everything. So we have, you know, the very first book that was used, you know, this is the offering that came, it was written day one date and this is the amount that came. So from the very beginning, you know, everything was kept organized, but it was small, you know, like you're saying, can we have a congregation just less than 20 people? There is work to be done, you still have to set up the sound and the mics and all that, but we try to do it in as good way as possible. Then slowly as more people came, you could delegate, hey, can you help me to the setup? You know, okay, can you help me back up? So like that, it got started, you know, and then slowly you built from there. So those were the early days and that's how, you know, initially you might have to do everything, getting these organized, but then as people joined, you can get more people to help you and they'll also catch the ratio. Okay, let's pause here. We'll take a break, 10 minute break, they'll come back and we'll continue this. Thank you.